" Anybody seen any Ford Excursions on the road lately? America has got to get with the senseable program. "
Yup, saw a couple this morning (southern california, SF Valley). I also see a lot of pickup and large SUVs - I'd say about 1/3 of the vehicles are in either the SUV or pickup class. The Chevy Surburban and Ford Expedition seem especially popular. In my home state of Texas, I'd bet it is close to 50%, expecially pickups. Of course, there is a lot of ranching down there, and they probably actually use their pickups for appropriate things, rather than shopping trips.
Also, I don't agree with the second part of your statement. Americans will do what they please, and many people would just as soon eat out a bit less than change their preferred vehicle. It is the poor people with large families that bear the real burden.
I saw the HiHy at a Toyota dealership recently. It by no means is Lexus quality, but I think it was pretty darn good. Don't forget... that 36k is a hybrid premium. If you really want nice interiors, check out BMW and Audi. The best in the business, but then you have the issues of reliability. Personally, give me a little cheap plastic and better reliability. That's what you get when you buy Toyota/Honda. A fair tradeoff in my book!!!
The Toyota Highlander in the article was over $36,000. Isn't that enough $$$$ for decent fit and finish?
I don't think we should fall into the trap of a car that costs $36k should automatically come with X, Y, and Z. I hear stuff like this on BMW discussions, "I paid $XX for my car and it doesn't even come with blah blah feature that a $15k hyundai has." The only thing I can respond with is: does the $15k hyundai have all the features which make the BMW unique?"
I think you should find a car that costs $36k that has what you think has the appropriate level of amenities, say a BMW 325i. Now add a hybrid engine to that- how much should it cost?? Now to get that figure down to $36k, what would you change?
I think it's ok to say, "for $36k, i think the HH is too expensive for what it offers."
My point was simply what someone thinks of a car's value is just an opinion. The reviewer of the article was talking like a car at a certain price point should contain certain features. What he should of said, and what was painfully obvious, was that he didn't think the HH was worth the price. That's just his opinion, yet he presents his article like the HH was defective or something because it didn't meet some imaginary criteria.
I happen to think the HH has a certain value. Obviously others disagree with my opinion, and they are entitled to that. I wasn't bashing the HH (this will be my next car so why would I bash it?), I just wanted to make it cleat that I disagreed with the WAY he presented his opinion (that the HH failed some litmus test). After rereading my last post, I wish I could edit it to say the author of the article should have changed his wording.
I think everyone perceives value in a different way. I happen to think the Lexus RH is overpriced, but there are people who couldn't care less and have bought it. I think the HCH and the Prius are the perfect price points for hybrids. Anything more and you certainly can't justify fuel savings as you sole motivating factor.
Ask gas station owners how many "drive offs" they get these days.... Your gonna hear about a real major problem that is epidemic in some areas.
In California (at least the LA area), you have to pay before you pump - if you don't use all the cash you leave with the station operator, you have to go back to get change. Very effective against drive offs.
Article about the hybrids that will be allowed in the HOV lanes. One thing is that in its list of coming hybrids they left out the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan coming in 2008.
"Getting in is a hard climb but inside the huge cab it's all leather and electronic comfort. It even has a rear-view video camera to prevent the accidental crushing of hybrid cars."
Hah, I chuckled a little when I read that. Now here's a funnier response. The parent company is Navistar International (NAV) mostly known for building truck engines. It's been doing "ok", but seems to be having difficulty with rising fuel costs. Yes we all know we rely on trucking for goods delivery, but with everyone feeling the "squeeze," of course this is going to cut into their bottom line. With the rollout of a product which is bound to be a bomb, i'd say their short term outlook is not so good. I plan on shorting this stock and hope to be laughing all the way to the bank. now that's funny.
I think this announcement is a TAD premature, most likely an overeager, underinformed reporter
Yeah, hasn't the Honda FCN already been on the road in several cities for like a year now? Kudos to Toyota for getting in the came, but this is hardly a revolution.
I believe that Toyota will have commercially viable fuel cell vehicles for public sale before any other manufacturer. They already are mass producing the hybrid synergy drive needed to utilize the power of fuel cells for vehicular motion. Toyota has greater technical, financial and manufacturing capabilities than any other manufacturer. Recall that recently the President of GM, Wagoner, went to Japan to cut a deal on sharing fuel cell development and was rebuffed.
Recall that recently the President of GM, Wagoner, went to Japan to cut a deal on sharing fuel cell development and was rebuffed.
Well, that's an interesting spin. Wagoner had a meeting with Toyota, but it was never clear exactly what was discussed, and I never read anything about a "rebuff".
My source was a news article in which the reporter stated the discussion was about fuel cell technology sharing and the reporter used the word "rebuffed" . It was on the web but I failed to bookmark it. It makes sense because Toyota has not licensed Ballard technology, as GM has done, and has done everything in house. In industry, a lot of R&D is what I term "competitive research"; that is, enough research is done to keep up with developments and in this case, for example, build a prototype to show Wall Street and shareholders that you're"hip" but not make the major investments necessary to bring things into production. Toyota, I'm certain, is determined to produse fuel cell cars for public sale.
Ford is claiming foul play because Toyota holds a minority stake in their supplier (Aisin).
I think Ford is full of it. They ordered 20K units from Aisin. Aisin says they can increase production by 20 percent at present. Ford is whining because they'd like to double production. How many production lines for hybrid transaxles do you think Aisin actually has? I'm guessing one. More production would require setting up a second line, training a second team of workers to build them, etc. These things take time. If Ford had not been as risk-averse they could have ordered 40K up front and had them by now. Instead they will have to wait, no matter who they pay to build the parts.
"...The $286.5-billion transit bill signed into law Wednesday by President George W. Bush includes incentives to encourage sales of fuel-efficient, low-exhaust autos. Buyers of Toyota's Prius hybrid should get a $3,150 credit next year, the most for any vehicle, while its hybrid Highlander sport-utility vehicle and Ford's hybrid Escape SUV should receive $2,600, the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy said in a statement Friday.
Other models benefiting from the tax rules that take effect Jan. 1, 2006, include Honda Motor Co.'s Civic Hybrid, which will receive a $2,100 credit, its Insight hybrid that qualifies for up to $1,450, and the Accord Hybrid, which should receive $650, said James Kliesch, a spokesman for the Washington-based energy group. General Motors Corp.'s so-called mild hybrid Silverado and Sierra pickup trucks might qualify for a $250 credit..."
In addition to these tax incentive, some states permit hybrids with only the driver to use HOV lanes.
Do you believe these breaks are justified, and why or why not?
this is kind of a replay of a prior discussion. i don't think hybrids should get HOV privileges, since for one thing, it is not the best use of their technology. also, a hybrid does not cut down on the number of vehicles on the road.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
One of the concepts of the HOV lanes is to incourage folks to drive something besides a gas guzzler. Motorcycles reap the benifits too for the same reasons. When and if (personaly I think when) gas becomes more scarce Rationing becomes the next step. Hummers and the like will get 30 gallons a week and go less than 290 miles and get thirsty again. On the other hand, a Prius on that same rationing will go nearly1500 miles. GET IT? We cannot and should not be wasting all the fuel that we do. Nuff said. Railroadjames (Times R a Changing) :sick:
No problem!!! I guess no one can dispute the information if it posted on Toyota's website! With gas approaching $3 a gallon they're gonna sell those Camry's like hotcakes!!
A wise decision by Toyota. The 4-banger plus the HSD motors will give the TCH all the power anyone reasonably needs. It will be interesting to see the '07 NAH and TCH go head-to-head.
Notice that Inside Line article (posted August 11th) says "the Camry Hybrid will most likely combine electric motors with a gas V6", but the Toyota website (undated, but designated Summer 2005) says "the 4-cylinder engine will be assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky".
Same kinda story out of "NBC" too! I thought it was less than factual & more commentary lacking experienced information. Nearly 650,00 hybrids on the roads today and still the "nay-sayers" keep fouling up the good news. To bad the truth isn't getting out the way it should. "NBC" even had someone from Edmunds stateing that the Prius test showed 36 mpgs. What are they doing? Drag racing. I get no less than 47 and more often 51-53 mpgs. Simply put bad info! Railroadjames ( want world peace...use yer turn-signal)
The media gets by with very slack research. At first they were touting the EPA numbers for the Prius - 60MPG! - and now they're swinging the other way at saying 36MPG. Worst of both worlds.
I'm definitely not getting 60 but who gets EPA anyway. I'm smiling everytime I pass a gas station. Currently 49.2 on the MFD. Can't beat that. I love my Prius!!
In what platform does it get 40mpg? For city driving, it depends greatly on the weight. At highway speeds it depends on the profile, tires, and drag coefficient.
One interesting and totally hypothetical analysis one can do is to compare the % mileage increase Honda got going from the Civic to the hybrid civic and then apply that to the Camry. Doing this yields 37 city/ 45 highway. Of course, that is just one possibility and might actually be what Honda would achieve with a 4 cyl accord and IMA.
Would be better to apply numbers from the Prius to the Camry, since they use the same kind of hybrid techology. Honda's IMA is different than Toyota's HSD--note for example that the HSD fuel economy numbers are higher for city driving than highway.
I wasn't sure how one would do this since I don't have two data points from Toyota to interpolate between. It is a wild estimate anyway. I expect that the hybrid camry will have more power and get poorer mileage than the prius, though, in order to cover a different segment of the market.
Hope yours is on order so you can take delivery on 1/1/06. Do you think any Toyota dealer would make that kind of a deal? Seems the way cars come in they want to move them when they come down off the truck. That could be a mad scramble after the first of the year.
You should read my prior posts. I already have one one order. I am the first one at this dealership. My family has been a customer there since I was a kid. Not only am I getting a deal, but a tax CREDIT to boot!! Wooo hoooooo!!!!
"The largest oil terminal in the world, Ras Tanura, is located on the eastern coast of Saudi Arabia, along the Persian Gulf. From Ras Tanura's control tower, you can see the classic totems of oil's dominion -- supertankers coming and going, row upon row of storage tanks and miles and miles of pipes. Ras Tanura, which I visited in June, is the funnel through which nearly 10 percent of the world's daily supply of petroleum flows. Standing in the control tower, you are surrounded by more than 50 million barrels of oil, yet not a drop can be seen. "
Best hybrid news I heard since the intro of the Prius! Toyota Camry Hybrid most likely will be a affordable 4 cylinder with limited luxury. Emphasis is economical fuel efficiency verus performance. BRAVO Toyota!!!!
Yes I was on holidays in an internet free setting, so I am kind of out of date.
Anyway I think the Toyota i4 hybrid approach is exciting and I will definitely consider one to inhabit the space in my garage(though I am still tempted to buy a gas guzzling sport sedan---just call me old fashioned)
Not sure of your definition of affordable, but with an increase similar to the Highlander or Lexus RX increases for the hybrids, that would put the 4 cylinder Camry Hybrid at about $26000-29000. If it holds at MSRP as the other Toyota hybrids have, that will make it about $9-12000 more than a comparable Camry LE at invoice minus rebate. For some people, that is far from affordable and makes very little logical sense.
You could probably sacrifice a little, move down to the Corolla, and get similar real world mileage to the Camry hybrid for about $10-16000 less. That would be an affordable solution.
Comments
I was speaking of current American production.
Yup, saw a couple this morning (southern california, SF Valley). I also see a lot of pickup and large SUVs - I'd say about 1/3 of the vehicles are in either the SUV or pickup class. The Chevy Surburban and Ford Expedition seem especially popular. In my home state of Texas, I'd bet it is close to 50%, expecially pickups. Of course, there is a lot of ranching down there, and they probably actually use their pickups for appropriate things, rather than shopping trips.
Also, I don't agree with the second part of your statement. Americans will do what they please, and many people would just as soon eat out a bit less than change their preferred vehicle. It is the poor people with large families that bear the real burden.
The Toyota Highlander in the article was over $36,000. Isn't that enough $$$$ for decent fit and finish?
I don't have a problem with the Prius fit and finish. Of course, it's also $10,000 less.
I don't think we should fall into the trap of a car that costs $36k should automatically come with X, Y, and Z. I hear stuff like this on BMW discussions, "I paid $XX for my car and it doesn't even come with blah blah feature that a $15k hyundai has." The only thing I can respond with is: does the $15k hyundai have all the features which make the BMW unique?"
I think you should find a car that costs $36k that has what you think has the appropriate level of amenities, say a BMW 325i. Now add a hybrid engine to that- how much should it cost?? Now to get that figure down to $36k, what would you change?
I think it's ok to say, "for $36k, i think the HH is too expensive for what it offers."
I happen to think the HH has a certain value. Obviously others disagree with my opinion, and they are entitled to that. I wasn't bashing the HH (this will be my next car so why would I bash it?), I just wanted to make it cleat that I disagreed with the WAY he presented his opinion (that the HH failed some litmus test). After rereading my last post, I wish I could edit it to say the author of the article should have changed his wording.
That's why there should be an incentive for people to buy Hybrid Highlander over regular ones. It seats 7 just fine.
In California (at least the LA area), you have to pay before you pump - if you don't use all the cash you leave with the station operator, you have to go back to get change. Very effective against drive offs.
jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 6700 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.7MPG
http://tinyurl.com/92slm
I am SO glad I have my Prius! MFD currently reads 48.3
Gotta love this car!!!
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-hybrid12aug12,1,978702.story?ctrack=1&cset=- true
http://www.hamiltonmountainnews.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=brabant/Layout/Articl- e&c=Article&cid=1123797020672&call_pageid=1071061598490&col=1073476868360
"Getting in is a hard climb but inside the huge cab it's all leather and electronic comfort. It even has a rear-view video camera to prevent the accidental crushing of hybrid cars."
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/columnists/bogert/articles/1673721.html
Yeah, hasn't the Honda FCN already been on the road in several cities for like a year now? Kudos to Toyota for getting in the came, but this is hardly a revolution.
Well, that's an interesting spin. Wagoner had a meeting with Toyota, but it was never clear exactly what was discussed, and I never read anything about a "rebuff".
http://www.taftmidwaydriller.com/articles/2005/08/12/news/features/feat02.txt
I think Ford is full of it. They ordered 20K units from Aisin. Aisin says they can increase production by 20 percent at present. Ford is whining because they'd like to double production. How many production lines for hybrid transaxles do you think Aisin actually has? I'm guessing one. More production would require setting up a second line, training a second team of workers to build them, etc. These things take time. If Ford had not been as risk-averse they could have ordered 40K up front and had them by now. Instead they will have to wait, no matter who they pay to build the parts.
"...The $286.5-billion transit bill signed into law Wednesday by President George W. Bush includes incentives to encourage sales of fuel-efficient, low-exhaust autos. Buyers of Toyota's Prius hybrid should get a $3,150 credit next year, the most for any vehicle, while its hybrid Highlander sport-utility vehicle and Ford's hybrid Escape SUV should receive $2,600, the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy said in a statement Friday.
Other models benefiting from the tax rules that take effect Jan. 1, 2006, include Honda Motor Co.'s Civic Hybrid, which will receive a $2,100 credit, its Insight hybrid that qualifies for up to $1,450, and the Accord Hybrid, which should receive $650, said James Kliesch, a spokesman for the Washington-based energy group. General Motors Corp.'s so-called mild hybrid Silverado and Sierra pickup trucks might qualify for a $250 credit..."
In addition to these tax incentive, some states permit hybrids with only the driver to use HOV lanes.
Do you believe these breaks are justified, and why or why not?
i don't think hybrids should get HOV privileges, since for one thing, it is not the best use of their technology. also, a hybrid does not cut down on the number of vehicles on the road.
Railroadjames (Times R a Changing) :sick:
http://tinyurl.com/8catn
There's also a feature about the 2007 Toyota Camry as well.
Notice that Inside Line article (posted August 11th) says "the Camry Hybrid will most likely combine electric motors with a gas V6", but the Toyota website (undated, but designated Summer 2005) says "the 4-cylinder engine will be assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky".
Do we see any kind of disconnect here?
Thats 500,000 Hybrid vehicles on the World's roads today.
A big achievement.
Ford must have sold 10,000 Escape Hybrids by now.
will not get the Return on Investment by showing Accord Hybrid.
Liars.
Now if Hybrid-Camry goes V4, Accord may probably follow, otherwise
Camry may outsell Accord by around 4 - 1 margin.
And 180,000 Hybrid vehicles sold in US will grab 1 % share of the 17,000,000 vehicles market.
A remarkable feat.
Railroadjames ( want world peace...use yer turn-signal)
One interesting and totally hypothetical analysis one can do is to compare the % mileage increase Honda got going from the Civic to the hybrid civic and then apply that to the Camry. Doing this yields 37 city/ 45 highway. Of course, that is just one possibility and might actually be what Honda would achieve with a 4 cyl accord and IMA.
http://tinyurl.com/8qlvk
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/21/magazine/21OIL.html?ei=5070&en=0423aa08c1b8c8de&ex=11248- 56000&pagewanted=print
"The largest oil terminal in the world, Ras Tanura, is located on the eastern coast of Saudi Arabia, along the Persian Gulf. From Ras Tanura's control tower, you can see the classic totems of oil's dominion -- supertankers coming and going, row upon row of storage tanks and miles and miles of pipes. Ras Tanura, which I visited in June, is the funnel through which nearly 10 percent of the world's daily supply of petroleum flows. Standing in the control tower, you are surrounded by more than 50 million barrels of oil, yet not a drop can be seen. "
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/toyota_camry_hy.php
It's been addressed in the "toyota camry hybrid versus honda accord hybrid" forum AT LENGTH last week or so.
Kudos indeed to Toyota for taking Hybrids (AGAIN) where they have never been !!!
Anyway I think the Toyota i4 hybrid approach is exciting and I will definitely consider one to inhabit the space in my garage(though I am still tempted to buy a gas guzzling sport sedan---just call me old fashioned)
You could probably sacrifice a little, move down to the Corolla, and get similar real world mileage to the Camry hybrid for about $10-16000 less. That would be an affordable solution.