that is far from affordable and makes very little logical sense.
You have followed the hybrids long enough to know that logic plays a very small part in the purchase of a hybrid. When they get the hybrid to a real world premium of about a grand then it will may make sense to buy one. By then the diesel cars will have flooded the market and this will be old news.
Diesel cars will never flood the US market. So sorry to burst your bubble. Hybrids are going to be big news AGAIN come Jan1st when the credits kick in. With the credits they are on parity with their gas counterparts price wise.
that would put the 4 cylinder Camry Hybrid at about $26000-29000.
With the above price range I would consider another car than a Camry. My point is that Toyota is at least doing the right things in terms of introducing a i4 hybrid Camry that will not be loaded up to the gills with exppensive gizmos. These facts alone appear to be contrary to prior attempts to charge hefty hybrid premiums(Highlander, RX)
Hybrids are going to be big news AGAIN come Jan1st when the credits kick in. With the credits they are on parity with their gas counterparts price wise
The above facts do not apply in Canada. That is why I would consider a diesel as my next purchase. The price of the new hybrid Camry is the one factor that would determine whether I take the hybrid or diesel route.
* a city council resolution supporting the mass production of plug-in hybrid vehicles * local seed money from electric utilities (Austin Energy will provide $1 million) to help local governments, businesses and the public purchase an initial round of plug-ins * commitments for fleet orders by the City of Austin, Travis County, other local governmental agencies and businesses * a grassroots petition drive to collect signatures from citizens encouraging automakers to mass-produce plug-in hybrids.
The appeal of plug-in vehicles is underscored by the fact that 78 percent of Americans live within 20 miles of their jobs. A battery pack sufficient to power a vehicle a distance of 35 miles on a charge would mean a majority of Americans would likely need to fill up with gasoline only once or twice a month."
"Next year, Austin will join some 10 other cities across the country to test a prototype plug-in hybrid van built by DaimlerChrysler, the only automaker currently considering the full production of plug-ins."
I was not aware that DC had a protoype plug-in hybrid van in the works - COOL !!!
You know I read this and I thought why aren't more city govt vehicles hybrids? I was thinking that a hybrid crown vic would be the perfect police cruiser. Most of the time, they're just sitting there idling. They rarely do highway miles, and the electric motor could give them a serious performance boost for "hot pursuits." On stealthy missions, they could even sneak up on the bad guys while in "electric mode." oh not to mention the savings in gas since these cars rack up miles.
I was not aware that DC had a protoype plug-in hybrid van in the works - COOL !!!
I believe the Sprinter hybrid is in service in Europe currently. MB has had commercial hybrids for a very long time.
Mercedes introduced world's first hybrid bus in 1969 At the IAA in 1969 Mercedes-Benz presented a technological feat: the world's first hybrid bus, an OE302 ("E" standing for Electric) with 205 hp electric motors, plenty for a bus at the time, 380 Volt batteries and 65 hp diesel engine. It had a range of 55 kilometer on electricity alone, and could run all day in service when also using the diesel. The top speed was around 70 km/h.
If it could be done cheaply enough, I think it would be a hit. You know how frugal city budgets can get....I think that's why there are so few City Fleet hybrids now - they usually just buy the cheapest fleet price they can get....
I knew about the Sprinter hybrid, but the "new" part of this news is that it is a protoype plug-in that Austin will be testing. It is a prototype Plug-In that will be converted from a regular hybrid Sprinter Van.
That is why many small cities cannot afford half million dollar premium that a hybrid bus costs. The fuel savings takes 35 years to recoup and that is beyond the life cycle of the bus. It becomes heavily subsidized in the cities that buy hybrid buses.
"SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--The San Francisco Municipal Railway has ordered 56 hybrid diesel electric buses from the DaimlerChrysler's transit bus brand Orion, with an option for 56 more units. The Orion VII diesel-electric 40-foot buses, similar to a large and growing fleet of Orion hybrid buses in service in New York City, promise significant emissions reductions and fuel savings compared to standard diesel buses, and also outperform conventionally powered vehicles."
"North Hempstead will chip in $92,500 of the $150,000 price tag for the prototype, which will be used by the Department of Community Services. Odyne and NYSERDA - the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority - will share the remaining costs. The bus will join the town's environmentally friendly fleet of seven electric vehicles used in the parks, eight compressed natural gas cars assigned to various town departments, and its seven Ford Escape SUV hybrids used by the animal shelter, building department, public safety and administrative services departments."
"The hybrid bus burns 20 to 50 percent less fuel than its diesel-engine counterpart, runs 25 to 30 percent quieter and produces 40 percent less emissions, industry sources said.Repair and maintenance costs are expected to be 32 percent lower than a conventional bus. "
quote stevedebi-"I don't see any information in your post indicating that the "35 year" time frame to recoup the extra bus cost was wrong..."-end quote
It depends on the bus. Say it costs $150K for a Hybrid bus and $75K for a standard diesel. Hybrid bus benefits:
20 to 50 percent less fuel 32 percent lower maint costs
Doesn't take a lot of common sense or complicated math to see how that bus will pay for itself FAR SOONER than 35 years.
The price premium for the hybrid bus needs to be somehow considered, but should not be a deterrent.....
"In the hybrid-drive Sprinter (with or without a recharging socket) an electric motor is integrated into the drive train between the transmission and clutch. It obtains its energy from a nickel/metal hydride battery which it constantly recharges when on the move, acting as a generator and using the energy produced when braking or on downhill gradients (recuperation). The basic vehicle is a Sprinter 311 CDI (3.5 t GVW, kerb weight 1960 kg) with an automatic transmission."
Expensive new hybrid diesel-electric buses that were portrayed by King County Metro as "green" heroes that would use up to 40 percent less fuel than existing buses have fallen far short of that promise.
In fact, at times, the New Flyer hybrid articulated buses have gotten worse mileage than the often-maligned 1989 dual-mode Breda buses they are replacing. Yet the hybrid buses cost $200,000 more each than a conventional articulated diesel bus.
We are subsidizing those buses to the tune of about 80%. That is transportation money that should be spent on roads, bridges and infrastructure. Our gas taxes should go where they are needed. Not to subsidize an unproven transportation system. You can jump on that bandwagon. The situation is out of control. What a gigantic waste of money.
The price of the Camry Hybrid will depend on trim level. If there is a "base" trim, the hybrid could start at around $21k--which would of course put it in the same price bracket as the Prius. (Now that would be an interesting choice...) Even if Toyota does a more loaded Camry Hybrid, it could easily start in the low 20s, not $26-29k. At that price, someone could get the HAH with a V6 or any number of very nice sedans.
"We didn't buy this (hybrid) bus because of fuel economy," Boon said. It has other desirable attributes, such as being cleaner, quieter, and saving on oil consumption and operating costs, but the tunnel forced the choice of the hybrids." Besides, the hybrids have their good points, Boon said. The hybrid fleet as a whole is saving $3 million a year in maintenance costs over the Bredas. And they're quieter than regular diesel buses and faster than the Bredas on hills and the highway."
So Gary, in every "dark cloud" is the inevitable silver lining.
And this is just "one type" of Hybrid bus, from one company. Toyota was not involved in the manufacture of this bus. Every Hybrid bus is not going to perform the same, not be engineered as well as the best on the road. Hybrid buses are a fairly new experiment, and as with all experiments, there will be failures as well as successes. Kudos to Seattle for being visionary to the point of at least trying the buses. And they are saving $3 million a year in maint costs and using less oil.
What is visionary about wasting federal dollars on pork barrel projects. That is exactly what the hybrid bus experiment is. The worst part is it comes out of the pot that is supposed to be repairing our highways & bridges. This makes them look green and gets the eco's off their back. Visionary my behind. I want to see GM prosper, just not with my tax dollars.
Recently the DOT examined net federal subsidies from 1990 to 2002 and found that highways and transit are worlds apart. For every thousand passenger miles, transit got $118 in subsidy. What kind of subsidy did highways get? Negative $2. In other words, highway users paid in more than they got back
Look at total dollar amounts of subsidy and the story is the same. Urban transit drained Uncle Sam's coffers by an average of more than $5 billion per year. Meanwhile, our highway system actually replenished those coffers by more than $7 billion per year.
Officials there recently discovered that nearly half of commuter rail riders not only fail to leave their cars at home, they use two cars to get to work. They drive to the "free" parking lot (subsidized, of course), travel on the subsidized rail line, and then arrive at the parking lot at the other end, where they climb into their second car (subsidized parking again) and drive the rest of the way to work. Transit can serve an important social purpose, but subsidizing those who can afford to use two cars for one trip isn't it.
From the story Gary - it was not pork barrel or waste:
"Despite the significantly higher cost and the underwhelming fuel efficiency of its hybrid buses, Metro had little choice but to get them, said Jim Boon, Metro's vehicle maintenance manager. That's because they are the only feasible bus Metro can use when it begins sharing the downtown bus tunnel with Sound Transit's light rail line in 2009."
"Regular diesels can't be used in the tunnel because they are too noisy, Boon saids, and older diesels put out too many toxic, smelly fumes. Ironically, when the new hybrids are booted out of the tunnel next September to make way for light rail construction, their fuel economy may well improve. They can then be put on the kinds of routes -- city routes with lots of stop-and-go -- where they might well show a fuel consumption advantage over other buses.
"The buses will be removed from the tunnel for about two years for tunnel alterations. When the tunnel is reopened, the hybrids will share it with light rail until the time when the trains are running so frequently they will replace buses in the tunnel."
So they needed those buses for MORE than just improved MPG, thank gosh. It was NOT a pork barrel waste of money.
I don't know about your area. I know in the greater San Diego area most buses & trolleys are carrying very few people. That is a waste of money whether you choose to believe it or not. I like the trolley system in SD. I have ridden several times to avoid high cost parking downtown. That does not make it good or right. It is huge drain on city finances. Many cities are on the virge of bankruptcy because they cannot continue to support all these "whatcha gonna gimme" services. About the time these cities get hybrid buses out comes the hydrogen bus. Oh these are so much cleaner than those dirty hybrids we have to have them.... sheesh
to the tune of $42 million per mile, right down the middle of the street, with half of it paid for by the US Govt. Heck, for the cost of this light rail program, we could have bought about 38,000 hybrid cars and SUVs and given them away to people who need transportation !!
No one really knows how the ridership will do. Thanks all you willing taxpayers !!!
There is no way that cars are cheaper to run for a city than public transport. You have to look at all aspects. It is a complete myth to believe that public transport is more expensive. With cars you have to pay for road repair, traffic devices (stop signs, lights, etc...) , maintence of bridges and tunnels, parking costs and the list goes on. Cars are a far more expensive way of a city wasting money. I would rather my tax dollars go to public transportation which is far cheaper than what an all car system would cost.
There are way to many cars on the road and public transport needs to be increased. Car owners should pay for the true costs of what their car costs the city. In Europe they do, it's called the gas tax. Our gas tax is far to low to cover the cost of maintenance for the city. The gas tax should effectively double the cost of gasoline and then it would cover everything.
OH I agree completely - I was funning about using the light rail money for hybrid car owners.
The only "problem" with expensive public transportation solutions is that to get the benefit, they have to get USED to a certain degree. Many are built and no one rides them. That's sad but true.
I'm not sure about other citys but I know in Portland the only time that the bus or light rail is nearly empty is from about midnight to 5 am. The rest of the time they are packed. The bus and MAX (light rail) are relativly cheep there as well, they woudl like to make them free, but are still charging to pay for the contiued expantion of the light rail system. The MAX is free how ever in the areas of down town and just in to the east side where there would other wise be a HUGE number of cars on the road. I know that Portland is quite a bit ahead of many other citys in the US but SF and Seattle should not be far behid if they are at all. As far as Portland using H buses I dont know much about that or if they are changing over.
The Camry LE is 20k with a manual transmission. You mean the Hybrid and CVT portion would just about be free? Not hardly. With the Prius priced the way it is, the Camry Hybrid would be at least in the mid 20's. The Toyota system is more efficient and expensive than Honda's so I don't think the Camry Hybrid 4 cylinder will fall much below the Accord Hybrid. Even if it was 3k below, that would put it at 27.9k which is right in the center of my estimated 26-29k range.
What I said was, the pricing of the Camry Hybrid will depend on the trim levels offerred. The regular Camry starts at under $19,000 list price with destination charge. I've seen a figure of $3000 stated for the hybrid "premium" on the Prius, which seems about right if you compare a base Prius with its standard equipment to a Matrix with similar equipment. That puts a potential low end for the Camry hybrid at around $22k. Now, if Toyota loads up the Camry hybrid with leather, alloys, and other luxuries like Honda did with the Accord Hybrid, then yes, it will not be $22k. We don't know yet which direction Toyota will go.
The world would be shocked if they don't at least equip it to the level of a no option LE. An LE with Auto is nearly 21k. Even with a 3k difference that would be 24K. That 21k LE can be had every day of the week for 17k. The real world difference will still be 7k if the Toyota (hyrbrids for MSRP only) continues. Not a bargain especially if real world mixed driving mpg only reaches 35-40 mpg (compared to 45-48 in the Prius).
$22k, or $24k, or $26-28k?? ... 35-40 mpg or ?? Bare-bones or maxed out? I guess we'll have to wait and see what the marketeers at Toyota decide to do, won't we.
I don't see how you can compute a 7k difference. If there is a 3k premium, that's possible. Most of that can be recouped with the tax credit. The remaining can be recouped in gas savings. And lastly, but certainly not the least, the intangible benefit to our planet.
No Toyota hybrid appears to sell for under MSRP. Any regular Camry can be had for 4k off MSRP 3k+4k = 7k. Toyota can only control the 3k difference. Dealers, and supply and demand make up the other 4k. The intangibles can be valued at infinity for some and $0 for others. The tax credit is nice for the buyer, but we are all as citizens paying the tab for that "hybrid welfare" cost.
In my opinion there should be several incentives by state, federal and others to create apattern of motivation toward thrifty cars, be they hybrid or otherwise. Likewise I think penalties are in order if you choose to drive a vehicle that gets less than a reasonable "mpg" rate. Why not? If supplies become scarce it could end up necessary and essental. Railroadjames( hybrids take the lead)
"HYBRIDS GO MAINSTREAM Though they’ve clearly been a hit with coastal early adopters, hybrid cars have yet to seep deeply into the consciousness of Middle America. But that’s likely to change this month when both Honda (HMC) and Toyota (TM) unveil the first major ad campaigns highlighting hybrid vehicles, each pushing the same message: The gas-sipping technology isn't just for tree huggers. Toyota is launching its ads ahead of an increase in production of non-Prius hybrids, including a new Camry set to launch next spring. Analysts think the automaker will eventually offer hybrid engines in its entire Lexus line. Honda, meanwhile, is trying to play catch-up: Its campaign takes aim at market leader Toyota by touting a more efficient engine in its revamped Civic hybrid."
"In my opinion there should be several incentives by state, federal and others to create apattern of motivation toward thrifty cars, be they hybrid or otherwise. Likewise I think penalties are in order if you choose to drive a vehicle that gets less than a reasonable "mpg" rate. Why not? If supplies become scarce it could end up necessary and essental."
1. Some states have actual needs for SUVs and pickups. Texas comes to mind. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply to the urban areas.
2. If supplies become scarce, government intervention will be unnecessary; people will make the choice for more fuel efficient vehicles. People's buying decisions have driven the large SUV market for years; only a change of buyer's additudes will cause the manufacturors to change vehicle production.
No problem all the good vehicles on the road that I am interested in have something they call a multi-way adjustable seat- it is the latest in high technology.
Well... I really don't know which cars have that option. I actually find the seats in the Prius quite comfortable. I suppose if the Kio Rio fits your tight budget, then go for it. I am sure you'll enjoy it. Good luck with your decision Barry. Keep us posted!! Ta ta....
Actually, based on reports in the Prius Prices Paid discussion, Prii can be had for under MSRP these days, at least in some markets. It was actually available for under MSRP in my town even back in 2003-2004--the price on the '04 Prius I ordered in late 2003 was $500 under MSRP, which grew to $800 under after a price increase hit. Supply has started to catch up to demand this year, bring prices down to earth.
I believe the problem was that the Prius did not have adjustable seats (up and down). The Kia has that, but pollutes a bit more and does not have skid control or ABS. I'd rather be safe than sorry.
The 2006 Rio has standard curtain airbags and optional 4 wheel disc ABS brakes. It also has a sporty 5 speed manual transmission which is a must for me in the underpowered 4 cylinder small car class. It can be had for a pretty low price also. Why spend more if it doesn't make sense; I would rather invest mine, but thanks for the advice Molo, ta ta to you too.
Since you like the Rio, did you know its cousin the Accent will be available as a hybrid next year? And it also has the side bags/curtains standard but also has standard ABS.
I guess if funds are short you have no options but to buy a less expensive car. I always insist my cars have skid control and ABS standard. It is very hard to find Kias with anti-lock brakes. The problem is that the demographics of the folks that buy these cars are not too intelligent with respect to safety features. They like the seat toys of bopping up and down as opposed to being in control of the vehicle on the road in adverse conditions.I like the fact that the hybrids give you tons of more content. As to a manual transmission, I don't do shifting in city traffic. I prefer a CVT with no shift shock. Enjoy the Kia Barry. Check in now and then to let us know how you're doing. Ta ta!!!
"The cars don't remain more than a week or so in stock, but Honda Cars of Bradenton doesn't have a waiting list. The same is true at Gettel Toyota, which carries two hybrid models, the Prius and the SUV Highlander. "Now is the first time in a year we haven't had a waiting list," said Bryan Jennings, Internet sales consultant at Gettel. Jennings attributes the increased supply to increased production. Several new hybrids on the market in the past year have driven up consumer choices, said Mark Brueggemann, an auto analyst at Kelley Blue Book in Irvine, Calif.
"In general, hybrid sales are up," Brueggemann said. "There's just more competition out there."
Honda Cars sells eight to 12 Honda Civic and Accord hybrids each month."
Comments
You have followed the hybrids long enough to know that logic plays a very small part in the purchase of a hybrid. When they get the hybrid to a real world premium of about a grand then it will may make sense to buy one. By then the diesel cars will have flooded the market and this will be old news.
With the above price range I would consider another car than a Camry. My point is that Toyota is at least doing the right things in terms of introducing a i4 hybrid Camry that will not be loaded up to the gills with exppensive gizmos. These facts alone appear to be contrary to prior attempts to charge hefty hybrid premiums(Highlander, RX)
The above facts do not apply in Canada. That is why I would consider a diesel as my next purchase. The price of the new hybrid Camry is the one factor that would determine whether I take the hybrid or diesel route.
http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2005/08/22/daily9.html
" The Austin plan includes:
* a city council resolution supporting the mass production of plug-in hybrid vehicles
* local seed money from electric utilities (Austin Energy will provide $1 million) to help local governments, businesses and the public purchase an initial round of plug-ins
* commitments for fleet orders by the City of Austin, Travis County, other local governmental agencies and businesses
* a grassroots petition drive to collect signatures from citizens encouraging automakers to mass-produce plug-in hybrids.
The appeal of plug-in vehicles is underscored by the fact that 78 percent of Americans live within 20 miles of their jobs. A battery pack sufficient to power a vehicle a distance of 35 miles on a charge would mean a majority of Americans would likely need to fill up with gasoline only once or twice a month."
"Next year, Austin will join some 10 other cities across the country to test a prototype plug-in hybrid van built by DaimlerChrysler, the only automaker currently considering the full production of plug-ins."
I was not aware that DC had a protoype plug-in hybrid van in the works - COOL !!!
anyway, just a thought
I believe the Sprinter hybrid is in service in Europe currently. MB has had commercial hybrids for a very long time.
Mercedes introduced world's first hybrid bus in 1969
At the IAA in 1969 Mercedes-Benz presented a technological feat: the world's first hybrid bus, an OE302 ("E" standing for Electric) with 205 hp electric motors, plenty for a bus at the time, 380 Volt batteries and 65 hp diesel engine. It had a range of 55 kilometer on electricity alone, and could run all day in service when also using the diesel. The top speed was around 70 km/h.
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/hybrid.htmlhe works
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050- 822005407&newsLang=en
"SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--The San Francisco Municipal Railway has ordered 56 hybrid diesel electric buses from the DaimlerChrysler's transit bus brand Orion, with an option for 56 more units. The Orion VII diesel-electric 40-foot buses, similar to a large and growing fleet of Orion hybrid buses in service in New York City, promise significant emissions reductions and fuel savings compared to standard diesel buses, and also outperform conventionally powered vehicles."
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-libus054371660aug05,0,7081473.story?coll=n- y-linews-headlines
"North Hempstead will chip in $92,500 of the $150,000 price tag for the prototype, which will be used by the Department of Community Services. Odyne and NYSERDA - the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority - will share the remaining costs. The bus will join the town's environmentally friendly fleet of seven electric vehicles used in the parks, eight compressed natural gas cars assigned to various town departments, and its seven Ford Escape SUV hybrids used by the animal shelter, building department, public safety and administrative services departments."
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/18/content_3370631.htm
"The hybrid bus burns 20 to 50 percent less fuel than its diesel-engine counterpart, runs 25 to 30 percent quieter and produces 40 percent less emissions, industry sources said.Repair and maintenance costs are expected to be 32 percent lower than a conventional bus. "
I'm not sure SF is a city, more of a foreign country, even to those of us in California.
I don't see any information in your post indicating that the "35 year" time frame to recoup the extra bus cost was wrong...
It depends on the bus. Say it costs $150K for a Hybrid bus and $75K for a standard diesel. Hybrid bus benefits:
20 to 50 percent less fuel
32 percent lower maint costs
Doesn't take a lot of common sense or complicated math to see how that bus will pay for itself FAR SOONER than 35 years.
The price premium for the hybrid bus needs to be somehow considered, but should not be a deterrent.....
20 to 50 percent less fuel
32 percent lower maint costs "
Yeah, that would work, but I had read around 400K for each bus...
"In the hybrid-drive Sprinter (with or without a recharging socket) an electric motor is integrated into the drive train between the transmission and clutch. It obtains its energy from a nickel/metal hydride battery which it constantly recharges when on the move, acting as a generator and using the energy produced when braking or on downhill gradients (recuperation). The basic vehicle is a Sprinter 311 CDI (3.5 t GVW, kerb weight 1960 kg) with an automatic transmission."
In fact, at times, the New Flyer hybrid articulated buses have gotten worse mileage than the often-maligned 1989 dual-mode Breda buses they are replacing. Yet the hybrid buses cost $200,000 more each than a conventional articulated diesel bus.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/203509_metro13.html
We are subsidizing those buses to the tune of about 80%. That is transportation money that should be spent on roads, bridges and infrastructure. Our gas taxes should go where they are needed. Not to subsidize an unproven transportation system. You can jump on that bandwagon. The situation is out of control. What a gigantic waste of money.
So Gary, in every "dark cloud" is the inevitable silver lining.
And this is just "one type" of Hybrid bus, from one company. Toyota was not involved in the manufacture of this bus. Every Hybrid bus is not going to perform the same, not be engineered as well as the best on the road. Hybrid buses are a fairly new experiment, and as with all experiments, there will be failures as well as successes. Kudos to Seattle for being visionary to the point of at least trying the buses. And they are saving $3 million a year in maint costs and using less oil.
What is visionary about wasting federal dollars on pork barrel projects. That is exactly what the hybrid bus experiment is. The worst part is it comes out of the pot that is supposed to be repairing our highways & bridges. This makes them look green and gets the eco's off their back. Visionary my behind. I want to see GM prosper, just not with my tax dollars.
Recently the DOT examined net federal subsidies from 1990 to 2002 and found that highways and transit are worlds apart. For every thousand passenger miles, transit got $118 in subsidy. What kind of subsidy did highways get? Negative $2. In other words, highway users paid in more than they got back
Look at total dollar amounts of subsidy and the story is the same. Urban transit drained Uncle Sam's coffers by an average of more than $5 billion per year. Meanwhile, our highway system actually replenished those coffers by more than $7 billion per year.
Officials there recently discovered that nearly half of commuter rail riders not only fail to leave their cars at home, they use two cars to get to work. They drive to the "free" parking lot (subsidized, of course), travel on the subsidized rail line, and then arrive at the parking lot at the other end, where they climb into their second car (subsidized parking again) and drive the rest of the way to work. Transit can serve an important social purpose, but subsidizing those who can afford to use two cars for one trip isn't it.
http://www.rppi.org/transitsubsidies.shtml
"Despite the significantly higher cost and the underwhelming fuel efficiency of its hybrid buses, Metro had little choice but to get them, said Jim Boon, Metro's vehicle maintenance manager. That's because they are the only feasible bus Metro can use when it begins sharing the downtown bus tunnel with Sound Transit's light rail line in 2009."
"Regular diesels can't be used in the tunnel because they are too noisy, Boon saids, and older diesels put out too many toxic, smelly fumes. Ironically, when the new hybrids are booted out of the tunnel next September to make way for light rail construction, their fuel economy may well improve. They can then be put on the kinds of routes -- city routes with lots of stop-and-go -- where they might well show a fuel consumption advantage over other buses.
"The buses will be removed from the tunnel for about two years for tunnel alterations. When the tunnel is reopened, the hybrids will share it with light rail until the time when the trains are running so frequently they will replace buses in the tunnel."
So they needed those buses for MORE than just improved MPG, thank gosh. It was NOT a pork barrel waste of money.
No one really knows how the ridership will do. Thanks all you willing taxpayers !!!
There are way to many cars on the road and public transport needs to be increased. Car owners should pay for the true costs of what their car costs the city. In Europe they do, it's called the gas tax. Our gas tax is far to low to cover the cost of maintenance for the city. The gas tax should effectively double the cost of gasoline and then it would cover everything.
The only "problem" with expensive public transportation solutions is that to get the benefit, they have to get USED to a certain degree. Many are built and no one rides them. That's sad but true.
http://www.trimet.org/environment/hybridbus.htm
In my opinion ,the any tax credits should be tied directly to real world mpg not a certain technology.
Railroadjames( hybrids take the lead)
Though they’ve clearly been a hit with coastal early adopters, hybrid cars have yet to seep deeply into the consciousness of Middle America. But that’s likely to change this month when both Honda (HMC) and Toyota (TM) unveil the first major ad campaigns highlighting hybrid vehicles, each pushing the same message: The gas-sipping technology isn't just for tree huggers. Toyota is launching its ads ahead of an increase in production of non-Prius hybrids, including a new Camry set to launch next spring. Analysts think the automaker will eventually offer hybrid engines in its entire Lexus line. Honda, meanwhile, is trying to play catch-up: Its campaign takes aim at market leader Toyota by touting a more efficient engine in its revamped Civic hybrid."
from this page:
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1095610,00.html
1. Some states have actual needs for SUVs and pickups. Texas comes to mind. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply to the urban areas.
2. If supplies become scarce, government intervention will be unnecessary; people will make the choice for more fuel efficient vehicles. People's buying decisions have driven the large SUV market for years; only a change of buyer's additudes will cause the manufacturors to change vehicle production.
The government further complicating the tax code to promote demand for hybrids when demand already exceeds supply just makes no sense.
Just about anyone who wants a Prius can find one within 200 miles of their home. All the other Hybrid models are usually available on the lot.
The USA is on track to buy 185,000 hybrids this year alone, and the car makers are not projecting any shortages or backlogs...
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2007/hyundai/accent/100536844/preview.html
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/business/12481531.htm
"The cars don't remain more than a week or so in stock, but Honda Cars of Bradenton doesn't have a waiting list. The same is true at Gettel Toyota, which carries two hybrid models, the Prius and the SUV Highlander.
"Now is the first time in a year we haven't had a waiting list," said Bryan Jennings, Internet sales consultant at Gettel. Jennings attributes the increased supply to increased production. Several new hybrids on the market in the past year have driven up consumer choices, said Mark Brueggemann, an auto analyst at Kelley Blue Book in Irvine, Calif.
"In general, hybrid sales are up," Brueggemann said. "There's just more competition out there."
Honda Cars sells eight to 12 Honda Civic and Accord hybrids each month."
discussion and you may continue there.
Let's keep this topic aimed at discussing the day's news items dealing with hybrids.