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Comments
You have followed the hybrids long enough to know that logic plays a very small part in the purchase of a hybrid. When they get the hybrid to a real world premium of about a grand then it will may make sense to buy one. By then the diesel cars will have flooded the market and this will be old news.
With the above price range I would consider another car than a Camry. My point is that Toyota is at least doing the right things in terms of introducing a i4 hybrid Camry that will not be loaded up to the gills with exppensive gizmos. These facts alone appear to be contrary to prior attempts to charge hefty hybrid premiums(Highlander, RX)
The above facts do not apply in Canada. That is why I would consider a diesel as my next purchase. The price of the new hybrid Camry is the one factor that would determine whether I take the hybrid or diesel route.
http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2005/08/22/daily9.html
" The Austin plan includes:
* a city council resolution supporting the mass production of plug-in hybrid vehicles
* local seed money from electric utilities (Austin Energy will provide $1 million) to help local governments, businesses and the public purchase an initial round of plug-ins
* commitments for fleet orders by the City of Austin, Travis County, other local governmental agencies and businesses
* a grassroots petition drive to collect signatures from citizens encouraging automakers to mass-produce plug-in hybrids.
The appeal of plug-in vehicles is underscored by the fact that 78 percent of Americans live within 20 miles of their jobs. A battery pack sufficient to power a vehicle a distance of 35 miles on a charge would mean a majority of Americans would likely need to fill up with gasoline only once or twice a month."
"Next year, Austin will join some 10 other cities across the country to test a prototype plug-in hybrid van built by DaimlerChrysler, the only automaker currently considering the full production of plug-ins."
I was not aware that DC had a protoype plug-in hybrid van in the works - COOL !!!
anyway, just a thought
I believe the Sprinter hybrid is in service in Europe currently. MB has had commercial hybrids for a very long time.
Mercedes introduced world's first hybrid bus in 1969
At the IAA in 1969 Mercedes-Benz presented a technological feat: the world's first hybrid bus, an OE302 ("E" standing for Electric) with 205 hp electric motors, plenty for a bus at the time, 380 Volt batteries and 65 hp diesel engine. It had a range of 55 kilometer on electricity alone, and could run all day in service when also using the diesel. The top speed was around 70 km/h.
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/hybrid.htmlhe works
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050- 822005407&newsLang=en
"SAN FRANCISCO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 22, 2005--The San Francisco Municipal Railway has ordered 56 hybrid diesel electric buses from the DaimlerChrysler's transit bus brand Orion, with an option for 56 more units. The Orion VII diesel-electric 40-foot buses, similar to a large and growing fleet of Orion hybrid buses in service in New York City, promise significant emissions reductions and fuel savings compared to standard diesel buses, and also outperform conventionally powered vehicles."
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-libus054371660aug05,0,7081473.story?coll=n- y-linews-headlines
"North Hempstead will chip in $92,500 of the $150,000 price tag for the prototype, which will be used by the Department of Community Services. Odyne and NYSERDA - the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority - will share the remaining costs. The bus will join the town's environmentally friendly fleet of seven electric vehicles used in the parks, eight compressed natural gas cars assigned to various town departments, and its seven Ford Escape SUV hybrids used by the animal shelter, building department, public safety and administrative services departments."
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-08/18/content_3370631.htm
"The hybrid bus burns 20 to 50 percent less fuel than its diesel-engine counterpart, runs 25 to 30 percent quieter and produces 40 percent less emissions, industry sources said.Repair and maintenance costs are expected to be 32 percent lower than a conventional bus. "
I'm not sure SF is a city, more of a foreign country, even to those of us in California.
I don't see any information in your post indicating that the "35 year" time frame to recoup the extra bus cost was wrong...
It depends on the bus. Say it costs $150K for a Hybrid bus and $75K for a standard diesel. Hybrid bus benefits:
20 to 50 percent less fuel
32 percent lower maint costs
Doesn't take a lot of common sense or complicated math to see how that bus will pay for itself FAR SOONER than 35 years.
The price premium for the hybrid bus needs to be somehow considered, but should not be a deterrent.....
20 to 50 percent less fuel
32 percent lower maint costs "
Yeah, that would work, but I had read around 400K for each bus...
"In the hybrid-drive Sprinter (with or without a recharging socket) an electric motor is integrated into the drive train between the transmission and clutch. It obtains its energy from a nickel/metal hydride battery which it constantly recharges when on the move, acting as a generator and using the energy produced when braking or on downhill gradients (recuperation). The basic vehicle is a Sprinter 311 CDI (3.5 t GVW, kerb weight 1960 kg) with an automatic transmission."
In fact, at times, the New Flyer hybrid articulated buses have gotten worse mileage than the often-maligned 1989 dual-mode Breda buses they are replacing. Yet the hybrid buses cost $200,000 more each than a conventional articulated diesel bus.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/203509_metro13.html
We are subsidizing those buses to the tune of about 80%. That is transportation money that should be spent on roads, bridges and infrastructure. Our gas taxes should go where they are needed. Not to subsidize an unproven transportation system. You can jump on that bandwagon. The situation is out of control. What a gigantic waste of money.
So Gary, in every "dark cloud" is the inevitable silver lining.
And this is just "one type" of Hybrid bus, from one company. Toyota was not involved in the manufacture of this bus. Every Hybrid bus is not going to perform the same, not be engineered as well as the best on the road. Hybrid buses are a fairly new experiment, and as with all experiments, there will be failures as well as successes. Kudos to Seattle for being visionary to the point of at least trying the buses. And they are saving $3 million a year in maint costs and using less oil.
What is visionary about wasting federal dollars on pork barrel projects. That is exactly what the hybrid bus experiment is. The worst part is it comes out of the pot that is supposed to be repairing our highways & bridges. This makes them look green and gets the eco's off their back. Visionary my behind. I want to see GM prosper, just not with my tax dollars.
Recently the DOT examined net federal subsidies from 1990 to 2002 and found that highways and transit are worlds apart. For every thousand passenger miles, transit got $118 in subsidy. What kind of subsidy did highways get? Negative $2. In other words, highway users paid in more than they got back
Look at total dollar amounts of subsidy and the story is the same. Urban transit drained Uncle Sam's coffers by an average of more than $5 billion per year. Meanwhile, our highway system actually replenished those coffers by more than $7 billion per year.
Officials there recently discovered that nearly half of commuter rail riders not only fail to leave their cars at home, they use two cars to get to work. They drive to the "free" parking lot (subsidized, of course), travel on the subsidized rail line, and then arrive at the parking lot at the other end, where they climb into their second car (subsidized parking again) and drive the rest of the way to work. Transit can serve an important social purpose, but subsidizing those who can afford to use two cars for one trip isn't it.
http://www.rppi.org/transitsubsidies.shtml
"Despite the significantly higher cost and the underwhelming fuel efficiency of its hybrid buses, Metro had little choice but to get them, said Jim Boon, Metro's vehicle maintenance manager. That's because they are the only feasible bus Metro can use when it begins sharing the downtown bus tunnel with Sound Transit's light rail line in 2009."
"Regular diesels can't be used in the tunnel because they are too noisy, Boon saids, and older diesels put out too many toxic, smelly fumes. Ironically, when the new hybrids are booted out of the tunnel next September to make way for light rail construction, their fuel economy may well improve. They can then be put on the kinds of routes -- city routes with lots of stop-and-go -- where they might well show a fuel consumption advantage over other buses.
"The buses will be removed from the tunnel for about two years for tunnel alterations. When the tunnel is reopened, the hybrids will share it with light rail until the time when the trains are running so frequently they will replace buses in the tunnel."
So they needed those buses for MORE than just improved MPG, thank gosh. It was NOT a pork barrel waste of money.
No one really knows how the ridership will do. Thanks all you willing taxpayers !!!
There are way to many cars on the road and public transport needs to be increased. Car owners should pay for the true costs of what their car costs the city. In Europe they do, it's called the gas tax. Our gas tax is far to low to cover the cost of maintenance for the city. The gas tax should effectively double the cost of gasoline and then it would cover everything.
The only "problem" with expensive public transportation solutions is that to get the benefit, they have to get USED to a certain degree. Many are built and no one rides them. That's sad but true.
http://www.trimet.org/environment/hybridbus.htm
In my opinion ,the any tax credits should be tied directly to real world mpg not a certain technology.
Railroadjames( hybrids take the lead)
Though they’ve clearly been a hit with coastal early adopters, hybrid cars have yet to seep deeply into the consciousness of Middle America. But that’s likely to change this month when both Honda (HMC) and Toyota (TM) unveil the first major ad campaigns highlighting hybrid vehicles, each pushing the same message: The gas-sipping technology isn't just for tree huggers. Toyota is launching its ads ahead of an increase in production of non-Prius hybrids, including a new Camry set to launch next spring. Analysts think the automaker will eventually offer hybrid engines in its entire Lexus line. Honda, meanwhile, is trying to play catch-up: Its campaign takes aim at market leader Toyota by touting a more efficient engine in its revamped Civic hybrid."
from this page:
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1095610,00.html
1. Some states have actual needs for SUVs and pickups. Texas comes to mind. Of course, that doesn't necessarily apply to the urban areas.
2. If supplies become scarce, government intervention will be unnecessary; people will make the choice for more fuel efficient vehicles. People's buying decisions have driven the large SUV market for years; only a change of buyer's additudes will cause the manufacturors to change vehicle production.
The government further complicating the tax code to promote demand for hybrids when demand already exceeds supply just makes no sense.
Just about anyone who wants a Prius can find one within 200 miles of their home. All the other Hybrid models are usually available on the lot.
The USA is on track to buy 185,000 hybrids this year alone, and the car makers are not projecting any shortages or backlogs...
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2007/hyundai/accent/100536844/preview.html
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/business/12481531.htm
"The cars don't remain more than a week or so in stock, but Honda Cars of Bradenton doesn't have a waiting list. The same is true at Gettel Toyota, which carries two hybrid models, the Prius and the SUV Highlander.
"Now is the first time in a year we haven't had a waiting list," said Bryan Jennings, Internet sales consultant at Gettel. Jennings attributes the increased supply to increased production. Several new hybrids on the market in the past year have driven up consumer choices, said Mark Brueggemann, an auto analyst at Kelley Blue Book in Irvine, Calif.
"In general, hybrid sales are up," Brueggemann said. "There's just more competition out there."
Honda Cars sells eight to 12 Honda Civic and Accord hybrids each month."
discussion and you may continue there.
Let's keep this topic aimed at discussing the day's news items dealing with hybrids.