As our host suggested, do not be riled by inciteful (not insightful) statements. We hybrid-heads will just respect those who beg to differ and leave them be. We can continue our discussion unimpeded.
The debate over economic payback is old and meaningless because personal driving patterns, tastes and needs vary greatly. Whether buying a hybrid is justified based on what factors is also meaningless because individual needs differ. The constant reference to this or that ICE car as a better choice is also useless because a car that works for 1 may not work for another.
A meaningful debate has to standardize all these factors to be meaningful. Same road, same temperature, same driving style, same load, same everything. When we see arguments that take some very specific situations and generalize, without qualification, to include the rest of us, the best approach is to simply ignore them and move on.
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kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Agree 100%.... Meanwhile... I have one pip blinking and I am trying to get 500 miles out of the tank. I'm almost there!! I feel sorry for my friend that got the great deal on an LR3 ($389 mo.). He gets 11-12 MPG!!! YIKES!!!!
The debate over economic payback is old and meaningless because personal driving patterns, tastes and needs vary greatly
I dont mean to be inciteful, but why is it meaningless? How can personal driving patterns economically justify a hybrid? Please enlighten me and the top Toyota executive with your insights!
Same road, same temperature, same driving style, same load, same everything. When we see arguments that take some very specific situations and generalize, without qualification, to include the rest of us, the best approach is to simply ignore them and move on.
Huhh :confuse:
The fact of the matter is this:
There are many reasons to buy a hybrid. Sole economic reasons are not one of them. If you did buy one based solely on economics, you have been duped and that apparently appears to be the reason why some members here are so defensive.
Not EVERY Hybrid owner got duped - I most assuredly did not
As I have mentioned before, I was shopping for a Civic and I paid $1,524 more for my HCH than a comparably equipped Civic EX on the lot that same night which had the minimum equipment I wanted but also had stuff I did not want like 6 disc CD changer and a moonroof.
I traded up from an Avalanche providing a SOLID 13.5 mpg, having spent $2214 in gas the prior year. The first year in my HCH I spent $656 in fuel and averaged 48.7 MPG for the year. My car payment is lower, my insurance is lower, my fuel bill is lower, my environmental awareness is higher, my Hybrid knowledge is higher, and I know that EVEN A LITTLE BIT I have helped make my immediate area a cleaner place. My total savings are about $5400 for the first year, all totalled.
And as far as "why didn't you just buy a non-hybrid small car with high MPG" argument, well, because at age 41, I'm not going to put myself into a tin can Echo or a lower end two door Civic HX just to get 42 MPG - I have worked hard in life and I have earned a nice car with all the perks PLUS the amazing perk of achieving 48+ MPG for $19,324.
I can't speak about others but in my situation I owned a 3 yr old Liberty that was burning gas at a rate of 16 MPG. For 26k I got a nice mid size car that gets close to 50 MPG, spews out FAR less pollution. Here are some nifty features that my Liberty did not have:
- Smart entry/Exit - Integrated NAV- I love the NAV and use it EVERY day - HIDs - they work great on the back roads where lighting is minimal - Integrated Blue tooth- love it..hands free phone - Stability control- Yup... outhandles the Liberty in the slippery stuff - CVT- No annoying shift shock - Electric AC- Ahhh the cool breeze at a stop light, engine off and I am not polluting... - Side/Curtain airbags- No curtains in the 2002 Liberty-- I feel safer - Steering wheel controls for most every important function- SAFETY!
After 31,000 miles I couldn't be happier. I have saved over $2,000 in fuel during this time alone. The only thing I've done is change the oil, air filter and PC valve. I have the extended warranty (pd $985) and have no worries for a long time to come. Yup... I made the right decision. Tis a shame there are SO many jealous people out there. It seems as the price of gas goes up, so does the rash of anti-hybrid postings. Definitely a correlation there. I love my Prius!!!!
it appears that your HCH purchase was economically justifiable. You certainly got a good deal.
Molokai,
definitely you got a good deal based on the fact that you got all features you like plus the good mileage.
I myself am interested in hybrids but not solely for economically justifiable reasons. I would rather spend my $$ on a technologically advance fuel saving vehicle for political/environmental reasons than buying another gas consuming BMW(though a BMW diesel that passes the future emissions requirements may change my mind).
If I appeared hostile among some forum members, that was not my intentions. It's just that I dont think buying a hybrid based merely on break-even analysis can be considered justified(unless you have Larsb as your price negotiator). There are many other reasons for purchasing a hybrid.
If someone has a 2001 Honda Accord 4 cyl and sells it for a Prius, that to me would not make economic sense. I personally don't see the advantage of buying the RH over the RX, but there are people that have actually paid a premium over the RH. We all know they'll never recover the premium. Believe me, I am a logical person when it comes to rationalizing purchases. I understand you intentions, but many times car buyers are emotional in their decisions and don't think things through. I hope to enjoy my car for many ,many years to come. I hope you're online 7 yrs from now so I can tell you how my Prius is doing.
I know you own a BMW... so we don't stray too far off topic, what do you think of the new 3 series? Would you buy it if it were a hybrid? I know I am in the minority, but I think the new 3 is REALLY nice looking.
The new 3 series is great for performance/handling. Within the sport sedan segment the BMW 3 series is the only car that combines both a smooth 6 inline engine with rear wheel drive(the new 06 Lexus IS will have a V6) . Up to now there is no sport sedan that handles as well as a 3 series.
A hybrid BMW? Too heavy for a sport sedan. Weight kills handling and without optimal handling a BMW 3 series is pretty useless. In order for the BMW to remain light and nimble---a turbo diesel would be more appropriate than hybrid for better handling.
Having said the above, the Lexus IS will have a hybrid version. My prediction is that the torquey hybrid IS will be a scorcher in terms of performance but handling will be more of a liability due to weight.
Sorry for choosing the improper words that could themselves be "bad" :-). Not my intention. In a forum (or e-mail) where we cannot see each other, choice of words and sentence formulations makes misinterpretation easy.
I was responding to the frequent and almost constant use of very general statements such as [paraphrase] "buying hybrids solely on economics makes no sense" and [paraphrase} "this ICE gets better mileage than a hybrid". My reaction is less about hybrids and more about formulation of arguments in general.
While 1 person can use a smaller ICE car that gets great mileage, a family of 7 cannot. So the specific ICE car argument fails as a general argument when applied to a large family.
While a person who likes to gun the engine, or drives 80% freeway, or transports no more than 2 to 3 people periodically can justify buying a gas-thrifty smaller ICE car, a family that moves 7 people (incluing growing kids) regularly over city streets cannot. No cars out there that seats 7 safely today can return 25-30MPG in city driving.
Finally, while a person who changes cars every 3-4 years can justify a thrifty ICE car, a family that keeps its cars for 200000+ miles can also justify a hybrid's initial cost. Thus that very vague, general and sweeping statement about hybrids making no economic sense also fails.
This is what I meant by making sweeping general statements without qualifications.
I like to end this debate amicably by saying that while I thoroughly understand the argument of the other side, I also hope the other side sees our point of view and get over this sticking point. Many of us chose hybrids because they meet our needs and one such needs is indeed economics.
We should just agree to disagree and move on..... to fuel cell hybrid!!!
A reporter just test drove a Daimler-Chrysler Fuel-Cell car in San Jose, CA. The car is most promising in terms of ease of use but has limited range. Sounds familiar? Looks like fuel cell hybrids is not far behind the current hybrids.
For those of us who had driven a Toyota based Hybrid (Prius & Lexus400h), have you notice the acceleration performance?
The combination of electric motor which gives immediate torque for quick acceleration and a Continuously variable transmission is great. After years of driving the Prius (model year '01 and '05), I just don't want to go back to a regular ICE and an Auto. xmission. I can punch the gas pedal and pass many vehicles, at will.
I got an rx330 '05 while waiting for the hybrid 400h. The rx330 is a very well pampered car, nice, and quiet. But every time I hit the gas pedal quickly after slow down braking (turning corners), the car seems to spend "eternity" in the twilight zone as it revs up the xmission and try to find the right gear before I actual get power response. That momentary loss of drive can be dangerous if you expect quick response in the midst of trafic.
I took the rx330 back to get the 400h (saved from double tax) and couldn't be happier. Even at 4,000+ lbs, the 400h is a quick vehicle. The Prius, at 2,700lbs, is also quick vehicle. I don't mind paying for that kind of performance. In fact, I'd rather pay for that kind of performance than a set of Levinson stereo!
That's a non-economic reason to buy a Toyota hybrid.
BTW, there's a $2k tax deduction for buying hybrids. To be fair, you have to account for that from the price.
Agree with everything you are saying in your last post, except for one point:
family that keeps its cars for 200000+ miles can also justify a hybrid's initial cost.
It is true that long term driving will recuperate the hybrid's initial costs, but as mentioned in many prior posts what will it cost to replace the battery? That is one uncertainty that cannot at this point be computed in any break-even analysis.
We should just agree to disagree and move on..... to fuel cell hybrid!!!
I am not quite well versed in fuel cell technology so please correct me if I am wrong. I read somewhere that fuel cell may be among the most expensive alternatives available---even if gas prices hit $8 per gallon. Why? Because fuel cell technology uses platinum and if there are many fuel cell powered vehicles the prices of platinum will shoot up beyond affordability.
The combination of electric motor which gives immediate torque for quick acceleration and a Continuously variable transmission is great.
This is probably why turbo technology may become a relic of the past. Why use gas burning turbos to generate more torquey performance when fuel saving hybrids can do the same thing?
BTW, there's a $2k tax deduction for buying hybrids. To be fair, you have to account for that from the price.
Must be nice! Here in Ontario, Canada we dont get such generous tax benefits for buying hybrids.
Yes the price of platinum, currently estimated at $2000 per unit, is a barrier to commercializing fuel cell vehicles. It was a problem, too with exhaust emissions also using platinum catalysts. But current exhaust systems vastly reduce the amount of platinum used. Given the amount of research and, in particular Toyota's capabilities, fuel cells with greatly reduced platinum requirements will become commercially viable. However fueling stations and hydrogen supply systems remain because a large capital investment is required. In my opinion Toyota is the only company with the resources and talent to produce a viable fuel cell car.
Toyota's resources may be sufficient for the commercialization of fuel cells. And there are other car companies that may outsmart Toyota with less resources.
But the key test is the infrastructure(fueling stations and supply). It will be sort of like the Chicken or Egg debate: Car companies will not invest enough in commercially viable fuel cell vehicles as long as there is no infrastructure and companies providing infrastructure wont invest enough unless there are commercially viable fuel cells.
Citing a 2001 mandate on minimum back seat leg room for authorized cab models, the commission said it could find no hybrid models available yet on the market that met the current standard.
A big share of the taxi cabs in San Diego are Crown Victoria's using CNG. Not sure what they will buy now that Ford is dropping that model.
The Prius made the top ten list in residual value according to Forbes magazine. I wonder how long that will last? It has pretty expensive company in that top ten too!!
I have been enormously impressed with the performance of my new RX400h. It made me check back on the Alessandro Volta hybrid car exhibited by Italdesign in Geneva last Spring. That car uses a HSD from the RX400h hotted up to deliver 50% more power . The car is much lighter, weighing 2750 lbs, does 0-60 in 4 seconds and gets an estimated 31mpg. According to a news report about the FIA, formula one cars could in the future have hybrid engines.
This is probably why turbo technology may become a relic of the past.
I beg to disagree with your statement. Hybrids today, and I'm referring to those with PRIUS style systems, are still equipped with gasoline engines which were carried over from existing vehicles.
They did undergo minor changes of which most people on this forum are aware. The fact remains that these engines were modified to suit the requirements of hybrid vehicles.
As such they represent less than optimal solutions and are the one area which promises enhanced gains for the future. A turbo can give a two to threefold increase in power for those few seconds that require it. This opens the possibility to the use of smaller, some perhaps with just two cylinders, and lighter engines in the years to come.
What makes Turbos so interesting is that the skill needed by drivers of manual transmission vehicles equipped with Turbos can be incorporated into the Prius onboard computers to make the use of these devices transparent to the driver. The computer programs can ensure the longevity of the Turbo by preventing over-revving and make warm up and cool down provisions automatically. T2
As a result of the provisions of House Bill 367, effective October 1, 2005: The Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius ARE exempt from the VEIP. The Honda Civic Hybrid , Ford Escape, GMC Sierra Hybrid and the Chevy Silverado Hybrid are NOT exempt from the VEIP.
One of the biggest environmental activist groups in the United States, the Sierra Club, has stopped bashing Ford and taken the unlikely step of helping to promote an SUV.
By purchasing a hybrid or diesel car after Jan. 1, 2006, consumers can get a tax credit anywhere from $500 to $3,400 dollars, depending on the fuel efficiency of the car.
The tax credit for a Toyota Prius, for example, would range anywhere from $2,500 to $3,000, according to Toyota.
I have started a new discussion on the tax breaks. THey are limited to 60,000 cars per manufacturor before percentage limits kick in. It looks like the Prius will net $1600.
I wonder how they define a "manufacturer" ? there isn't many mfgr out there, but many brand names. Does Prius, 400h, and Highlander, future Camry, GS got counted together?
That is a good question. I imagine GM is one and Toyota is one with all the brands under them sharing in the tax credit. It should entice all the manufacturers to get involved. It sounded like all the hybrids that Toyota builds will be in that 60k limit. At least according to the Toyota spokes person. I wonder if they can sell 60k hybrids and 60k diesels or if the diesel cars will be part of the overall limitation. Maybe some of the legal minds on the forum will decipher the bill.
The legislation specifically says that all sub-brands are included by the term "manufacturor". That is the meaning, not the exact wording. So it applies to all Toyota corporate brands.
You may have to register (it's free) to read them. The jist of the articles, that include much test driving, is that the fuel efficiency of the Lexus 440h and Toyota Highlander SUV hybrids was very dissappointing. There was barely any mileage difference between them and their much less expensive gasoline-powered relatives.
I read the articles and there definitely is some truth to them. I also read the RH forum and people there are getting better numbers than the journalists so go figure. I owned an RX300 for 3 years and never reset the mileage and it was 18.6 overall when I returned it to the dealer. I am sure if I had the hybrid it would be at least 24. Is it worth it? That depends on the individual. I for one would not buy one. If someone buys one they should not be chastised for their purchase. It's THEIR money.
I've driven Hybrids for several years, and I've found that my mpg numbers are significantly (and consistently) larger than my wife's. It's a large function of driving style.
Here is a few points/arguments:
1. EPA is a US gov't agency, supposedly a third and independent party than you+me and Toyota. Toyota markets a car that was tested by this "independent" party. The EPA numbers being marketed is supposedly the EPA's resulted numbers, and meant to be a guide (read fine print). If people say Toyota hypes up mpg to sell the car, are they inferring that EPA is some how paid off by Toyota?? Sounds like liberal baloney.
2. After owning a hybrid for awhile, one will get the "hang" of how to drive the vehicle to get better mpg. After a long time of repeatedly getting low numbers, my wife asked me to coach her on how to get higher numbers. And she did, but never as goơd as mine. Are we to assume that the NYtimes journalists are most objective and knowledgable in driving a hybrid?
3. I get 28mpg past 1,000miles on the 400h, driving with AC on in hot FL weather. I can get in the low 20's if I drive lead-footed. I think that's how people get low numbers in the low 20's.
You wrote: "I also read the RH forum and people there are getting better numbers than the journalists so go figure". Don't forget what you read in one of those three articles. The journalist was quite experienced at driving for maximum mileage. He wrote that he had participated in the Mobilgas Economy Run years ago.
Driving a hybrid requires different techniques. Edmunds averaged 27.5 on their vehicle. Other car magazines have reported higher mileage than the Times article. Even users in the Edmunds forums have achieved higher figures. Though the article is interesting it won't disuade people from buying what they want.
If I use techniques in driving a RX330 I will get much better mileage! Dont waste time about techniques when you can apply them to all cars(hybrid or not)
And lately, in front yards all over the deep south, I'm seeing these big behemoth SUVs (a lot of them 2004 or 2005 models) with For Sale signs on them, sitting like they're Sherman tanks on display in front of the VFW. Please...someone get a broom and knock the birds nests off them. Keep those kids from climbin' up on them. They don't belong up there on top of 'em. Don't they have any respect? Dammit. Kids, these days.
They're gone. And that's what American auto makers get for their lack of ingenuity and foresight. And now WE'RE going to finally learn that there's a distinction between freedom and convenience, and we never should have confused the two.
I don't use any technique with my Prius and I get close to 50 MPG. I'm grinning all the way to the bank.... heheheheheh BUT... as far as technique is concerned there is truth to it if you drive an atkinson cycle car. I've read it is more efficient in the higher RPM range. The RH is not atkinson so I don't see a technique. I have seen some mileage results from the RH forum and they look pretty decent for a 4000 pound vehicle. My buddy with the LR3 would lust for those numbers.
It is a shame there is a limitation on the number of vehicles. It really makes no sense since 60,000 is miniscule in comparison to the millions of vehicles sold every year. Think of the first 60,000 buyers as lottery winners. That's how I look at it.
The Times articles were not dinging the Prius, just the heavier Highlander Hybrid and RX 440h vehicles that are not saving fuel to the degree that Prius has achieved. I, for one, surely hope that he facts and figures DO "disuade people from buying" the bloated SUVs.
I realize that. I think Toyota wanted to prove that they can build an SUV with a hybrid drivetrain that gets decent mileage. If people are claiming they're average 25MPG then I think they've achieved their goal. I think their efforts should now be focused on producing higher mileage hybrids AND clean diesels.
You're missing the point.....Hybrids entice and educate you into the ways of better mileage. My (any other car) did not do this and that's the difference. My Prius litteraly begs you to improve using the electric mode as often as possible. Thus you become a hybrid driver. There is a difference. Railroadjames
Comments
Respect to Scotty as well.
As our host suggested, do not be riled by inciteful (not insightful) statements. We hybrid-heads will just respect those who beg to differ and leave them be. We can continue our discussion unimpeded.
The debate over economic payback is old and meaningless because personal driving patterns, tastes and needs vary greatly. Whether buying a hybrid is justified based on what factors is also meaningless because individual needs differ. The constant reference to this or that ICE car as a better choice is also useless because a car that works for 1 may not work for another.
A meaningful debate has to standardize all these factors to be meaningful. Same road, same temperature, same driving style, same load, same everything. When we see arguments that take some very specific situations and generalize, without qualification, to include the rest of us, the best approach is to simply ignore them and move on.
6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I dont mean to be inciteful, but why is it meaningless? How can personal driving patterns economically justify a hybrid? Please enlighten me and the top Toyota executive with your insights!
Same road, same temperature, same driving style, same load, same everything. When we see arguments that take some very specific situations and generalize, without qualification, to include the rest of us, the best approach is to simply ignore them and move on.
Huhh :confuse:
The fact of the matter is this:
There are many reasons to buy a hybrid. Sole economic reasons are not one of them. If you did buy one based solely on economics, you have been duped and that apparently appears to be the reason why some members here are so defensive.
As I have mentioned before, I was shopping for a Civic and I paid $1,524 more for my HCH than a comparably equipped Civic EX on the lot that same night which had the minimum equipment I wanted but also had stuff I did not want like 6 disc CD changer and a moonroof.
I traded up from an Avalanche providing a SOLID 13.5 mpg, having spent $2214 in gas the prior year. The first year in my HCH I spent $656 in fuel and averaged 48.7 MPG for the year. My car payment is lower, my insurance is lower, my fuel bill is lower, my environmental awareness is higher, my Hybrid knowledge is higher, and I know that EVEN A LITTLE BIT I have helped make my immediate area a cleaner place. My total savings are about $5400 for the first year, all totalled.
And as far as "why didn't you just buy a non-hybrid small car with high MPG" argument, well, because at age 41, I'm not going to put myself into a tin can Echo or a lower end two door Civic HX just to get 42 MPG - I have worked hard in life and I have earned a nice car with all the perks PLUS the amazing perk of achieving 48+ MPG for $19,324.
- Smart entry/Exit
- Integrated NAV- I love the NAV and use it EVERY day
- HIDs - they work great on the back roads where lighting is minimal
- Integrated Blue tooth- love it..hands free phone
- Stability control- Yup... outhandles the Liberty in the slippery stuff
- CVT- No annoying shift shock
- Electric AC- Ahhh the cool breeze at a stop light, engine off and I am not polluting...
- Side/Curtain airbags- No curtains in the 2002 Liberty-- I feel safer
- Steering wheel controls for most every important function- SAFETY!
After 31,000 miles I couldn't be happier. I have saved over $2,000 in fuel during this time alone. The only thing I've done is change the oil, air filter and PC valve. I have the extended warranty (pd $985) and have no worries for a long time to come. Yup... I made the right decision. Tis a shame there are SO many jealous people out there. It seems as the price of gas goes up, so does the rash of anti-hybrid postings. Definitely a correlation there. I love my Prius!!!!
Larsb,
it appears that your HCH purchase was economically justifiable. You certainly got a good deal.
Molokai,
definitely you got a good deal based on the fact that you got all features you like plus the good mileage.
I myself am interested in hybrids but not solely for economically justifiable reasons. I would rather spend my $$ on a technologically advance fuel saving vehicle for political/environmental reasons than buying another gas consuming BMW(though a BMW diesel that passes the future emissions requirements may change my mind).
If I appeared hostile among some forum members, that was not my intentions. It's just that I dont think buying a hybrid based merely on break-even analysis can be considered justified(unless you have Larsb as your price negotiator). There are many other reasons for purchasing a hybrid.
A hybrid BMW? Too heavy for a sport sedan. Weight kills handling and without optimal handling a BMW 3 series is pretty useless. In order for the BMW to remain light and nimble---a turbo diesel would be more appropriate than hybrid for better handling.
Having said the above, the Lexus IS will have a hybrid version. My prediction is that the torquey hybrid IS will be a scorcher in terms of performance but handling will be more of a liability due to weight.
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/35/a-lewis.php
I was responding to the frequent and almost constant use of very general statements such as [paraphrase] "buying hybrids solely on economics makes no sense" and [paraphrase} "this ICE gets better mileage than a hybrid". My reaction is less about hybrids and more about formulation of arguments in general.
While 1 person can use a smaller ICE car that gets great mileage, a family of 7 cannot. So the specific ICE car argument fails as a general argument when applied to a large family.
While a person who likes to gun the engine, or drives 80% freeway, or transports no more than 2 to 3 people periodically can justify buying a gas-thrifty smaller ICE car, a family that moves 7 people (incluing growing kids) regularly over city streets cannot. No cars out there that seats 7 safely today can return 25-30MPG in city driving.
Finally, while a person who changes cars every 3-4 years can justify a thrifty ICE car, a family that keeps its cars for 200000+ miles can also justify a hybrid's initial cost. Thus that very vague, general and sweeping statement about hybrids making no economic sense also fails.
This is what I meant by making sweeping general statements without qualifications.
I like to end this debate amicably by saying that while I thoroughly understand the argument of the other side, I also hope the other side sees our point of view and get over this sticking point. Many of us chose hybrids because they meet our needs and one such needs is indeed economics.
We should just agree to disagree and move on..... to fuel cell hybrid!!!
A reporter just test drove a Daimler-Chrysler Fuel-Cell car in San Jose, CA. The car is most promising in terms of ease of use but has limited range. Sounds familiar? Looks like fuel cell hybrids is not far behind the current hybrids.
For those of us who had driven a Toyota based Hybrid (Prius & Lexus400h), have you notice the acceleration performance?
The combination of electric motor which gives immediate torque for quick acceleration and a Continuously variable transmission is great. After years of driving the Prius (model year '01 and '05), I just don't want to go back to a regular ICE and an Auto. xmission. I can punch the gas pedal and pass many vehicles, at will.
I got an rx330 '05 while waiting for the hybrid 400h. The rx330 is a very well pampered car, nice, and quiet. But every time I hit the gas pedal quickly after slow down braking (turning corners), the car seems to spend "eternity" in the twilight zone as it revs up the xmission and try to find the right gear before I actual get power response. That momentary loss of drive can be dangerous if you expect quick response in the midst of trafic.
I took the rx330 back to get the 400h (saved from double tax) and couldn't be happier. Even at 4,000+ lbs, the 400h is a quick vehicle. The Prius, at 2,700lbs, is also quick vehicle. I don't mind paying for that kind of performance. In fact, I'd rather pay for that kind of performance than a set of Levinson stereo!
That's a non-economic reason to buy a Toyota hybrid.
BTW, there's a $2k tax deduction for buying hybrids. To be fair, you have to account for that from the price.
family that keeps its cars for 200000+ miles can also justify a hybrid's initial cost.
It is true that long term driving will recuperate the hybrid's initial costs, but as mentioned in many prior posts what will it cost to replace the battery? That is one uncertainty that cannot at this point be computed in any break-even analysis.
We should just agree to disagree and move on..... to fuel cell hybrid!!!
I am not quite well versed in fuel cell technology so please correct me if I am wrong. I read somewhere that fuel cell may be among the most expensive alternatives available---even if gas prices hit $8 per gallon. Why? Because fuel cell technology uses platinum and if there are many fuel cell powered vehicles the prices of platinum will shoot up beyond affordability.
This is probably why turbo technology may become a relic of the past. Why use gas burning turbos to generate more torquey performance when fuel saving hybrids can do the same thing?
BTW, there's a $2k tax deduction for buying hybrids. To be fair, you have to account for that from the price.
Must be nice! Here in Ontario, Canada we dont get such generous tax benefits for buying hybrids.
fuel cell car.
But the key test is the infrastructure(fueling stations and supply). It will be sort of like the Chicken or Egg debate: Car companies will not invest enough in commercially viable fuel cell vehicles as long as there is no infrastructure and companies providing infrastructure wont invest enough unless there are commercially viable fuel cells.
"... Within five to six years there's not going to be a regular gas taxi on the road. Every cab you see will be either hybrid or alternative fuel."
A big share of the taxi cabs in San Diego are Crown Victoria's using CNG. Not sure what they will buy now that Ford is dropping that model.
http://tinyurl.com/akt7q
I don't think Ford is dropping the Crown Vic for fleets.
But it has good company with the Scion tc and Accord hybrid!
I beg to disagree with your statement. Hybrids today, and I'm referring to those with PRIUS style systems, are still equipped with gasoline engines which were carried over from existing vehicles.
They did undergo minor changes of which most people on this forum are aware.
The fact remains that these engines were modified to suit the requirements of hybrid vehicles.
As such they represent less than optimal solutions and are the one area which promises enhanced gains for the future. A turbo can give a two to threefold increase in power for those few seconds that require it. This opens the possibility to the use of smaller, some perhaps with just two cylinders, and lighter engines in the years to come.
What makes Turbos so interesting is that the skill needed by drivers of manual transmission vehicles equipped with Turbos can be incorporated into the Prius onboard computers to make the use of these devices transparent to the driver. The computer programs can ensure the longevity of the Turbo by preventing over-revving and make warm up and cool down provisions automatically.
T2
The Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius ARE exempt from the VEIP.
The Honda Civic Hybrid , Ford Escape, GMC Sierra Hybrid and the Chevy Silverado Hybrid are NOT exempt from the VEIP.
http://mva.state.md.us/MVAProg/VEIP/VeipHybrid.htm
They are going to have to redo that language when the 2006 Civic comes out and tests 50+ for City which we "in the know" KNOW that it will.........
One of the biggest environmental activist groups in the United States, the Sierra Club, has stopped bashing Ford and taken the unlikely step of helping to promote an SUV.
http://trucktrend.com/roadtests/suv/163_0506_fuelfuture/
By purchasing a hybrid or diesel car after Jan. 1, 2006, consumers can get a tax credit anywhere from $500 to $3,400 dollars, depending on the fuel efficiency of the car.
The tax credit for a Toyota Prius, for example, would range anywhere from $2,500 to $3,000, according to Toyota.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/29/pf/energy_bill_consumers/
They should make that retroactive....
The key word is tax CREDIT, not tax deduction. This also means the hybrid is getting way less expensive.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/automobiles/31AUTO.html?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/automobiles/31TOYOTA.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/31/automobiles/31EPA.html
You may have to register (it's free) to read them. The jist of the articles, that include much test driving, is that the fuel efficiency of the Lexus 440h and Toyota Highlander SUV hybrids was very dissappointing. There was barely any mileage difference between them and their much less expensive gasoline-powered relatives.
Here is a few points/arguments:
1. EPA is a US gov't agency, supposedly a third and independent party than you+me and Toyota. Toyota markets a car that was tested by this "independent" party. The EPA numbers being marketed is supposedly the EPA's resulted numbers, and meant to be a guide (read fine print). If people say Toyota hypes up mpg to sell the car, are they inferring that EPA is some how paid off by Toyota?? Sounds like liberal baloney.
2. After owning a hybrid for awhile, one will get the "hang" of how to drive the vehicle to get better mpg. After a long time of repeatedly getting low numbers, my wife asked me to coach her on how to get higher numbers. And she did, but never as goơd as mine. Are we to assume that the NYtimes journalists are most objective and knowledgable in driving a hybrid?
3. I get 28mpg past 1,000miles on the 400h, driving with AC on in hot FL weather. I can get in the low 20's if I drive lead-footed. I think that's how people get low numbers in the low 20's.
You wrote: "I also read the RH forum and people there are getting better numbers than the journalists so go figure". Don't forget what you read in one of those three articles. The journalist was quite experienced at driving for maximum mileage. He wrote that he had participated in the Mobilgas Economy Run years ago.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=18&article_id=745
If I use techniques in driving a RX330 I will get much better mileage! Dont waste time about techniques when you can apply them to all cars(hybrid or not)
This tax credit is awesome.
Every magazine I'm reading is talking about oil.
And lately, in front yards all over the deep south, I'm seeing these big behemoth SUVs (a lot of them 2004 or 2005 models) with For Sale signs on them, sitting like they're Sherman tanks on display in front of the VFW. Please...someone get a broom and knock the birds nests off them. Keep those kids from climbin' up on them. They don't belong up there on top of 'em. Don't they have any respect? Dammit. Kids, these days.
They're gone. And that's what American auto makers get for their lack of ingenuity and foresight. And now WE'RE going to finally learn that there's a distinction between freedom and convenience, and we never should have confused the two.
The Times articles were not dinging the Prius, just the heavier Highlander Hybrid and RX 440h vehicles that are not saving fuel to the degree that Prius has achieved. I, for one, surely hope that he facts and figures DO "disuade people from buying" the bloated SUVs.
Railroadjames