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Comments
Railroadjames(hoping for a sport hybrid soon)
The article points out what I think is still the big hangup. If the concept is that you're going to save fuel, and all the good stuff that results from that, most people are NOT going to expect to pay a hefty premium for that.
To use a non-hybrid example, you can buy a car that has a 4 cylinder or a V-8. You pay a premium to buy the power of the V-8, or you can choose to be more fuel efficient and not only save money at the pump, but save money on the purchase as well.
The initial hybrid offerings have turned that scenario upside down. And I think it explains why hybrid market share, even though it's growing, is where it is. People generally buy fuel efficient vehicles to save money.
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
The Mazda Mania Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
They get it - they just don't care enough to pay the extra money, to have to cram themselves into a smaller vehicle, and to take risks on a new technology.
Let me repeat - when it comes to the environment, most people will talk a good game, but won't vote with their dollars.
Back on the subject, Mercury has started selling it's hybrid:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/hybrid12e_20050712.htm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05193/536691.stm
Umm, the A4 is pretty small, too. And I never said the Prius wasn't a good car.
At least I know I am contributing to a greener environment. In the end, that's what counts.
That's "what counts" for you. For most people, other things are far more important, which is what I'm trying to get your head around.
Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
You're telling me at 62PSI all around in the tires, someone got 98.8MPG?? Over how long of a time or mileage span is this?
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
The Subaru Crew Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
Yes, we have and as far as you want if the roadway is conducive to it. Here are the details as well as news
xcel, "Toyota Prius Owners: MPG-Real World Numbers" #10, 14 Jul 2005 6:02 pm
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticleSearch.aspx?storyID=164822+14-Jul-2005+RTRS&srch=- Katsuaki+Watanabe
What's more important is improving the quality of our cars and service. My dream is to build a car that cleans the air as you drive it, and causes no accidents, he told Reuters in an interview at the auto maker's headquarters in central Japan.
Maybe someone should tell this guy that he's building a big truck plant in Texas, lol.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/14/Autos/hybrid_survey/index.htm
Summary - not there yet, but there's hope for the future...
And maybe that truck plant will someday produce PZEV trucks, but likely not anytime soon. In the meantime, it'll be producing the same bad old trucks that Ford and GM do. My point is that Toyota talks very nicely about helping the environment when their major move in the US is to build more full-sized trucks. Like a magician, they want you to watch what the right hand is doing while the left hand is pocketing the little red balls, lol.
Toyota is not a magician. But they, like GM and Ford, are in business to make a profit for their stockholders. Trucks sell--big. When more people buy small cars, they'll make more small cars.
I'm not faulting Toyota for wanting to sell a lot of trucks. I'm faulting them for trying to play it down and play up their green image. They are frankly talking out of both sides of their mouth.
Volvo concept: http://www.hybridcars.com/volvo-3cc.html
They are getting a better average percentage over the non-hybrid Escape than either the RX400h or the HH. The Escape Hybrid is getting real world 29.3 MPG compared to the HH that is only getting 22.9 MPG. The Escape hybrid is doing 32% better than the non-hybrid Escape. The HH on the other hand is getting about a 9% improvement over the V6 non-hybrid Highlander. If the Ford hybrids are a joke the Toyota SUV hybrids are a GIGANTIC JOKE.
A person who took that car on a cross-country ride is writing an article about it and in keeping with the rules of this board, I cannot provide the link so please do search for it yourself, just use "Ford Escape Hybrid Cross Country" as search string. The owner takes pictures of the gauges showing the numbers so it is believable. He is a fun writer who talks about philosophical changes that happened as he drives his hybrid.
In the end, it is we Americans who hold the key. If we buy 90% V8 ICE, Toyota will have no choice but to sell them or leave our shores. If we buy 90% hybrids then everyone, Ford and GM included, will have little choice but to offer hybrids.
Regards.
Toyota is simply marketing to Americans (mostly along both coasts) who will buy its product and Ford (and GM and Chrysler) are marketing to people in middle America who prefer their products. People who buy Toyota tend to think a certain way and sway by certain messages however true or fake, and people who buy Ford think a different way and so are attracted to different messages. I came from Michigan and my whole family automatically, without thinking, bought Ford's for as long as I can remember. Even Ford farm tractors.
The only reason I switched to Toyota was because the new ICE engines have too many computers as compared to my old simplistic V8 mustang whose engine I can rebuild. I am also getting old and creaky and find it difficult to work in tight quarters. In short, I needed a reliable car that is comfortable, quiet and safe and need little repair work. Unfortunately, that turned out to be Toyota at the time. Strange as it may sound, it was a gut-wrenching decision to not buy Ford.
Picking on Toyota or Ford or GM seems to miss the point and actually plays into the hands of corporate marketing. Those who bought into the Toyota "green" image have bought into Toyota marketing, hook line and sinker. Those who support Ford against everything Toyota just have an axe to grind with Toyota. Both positions are not very interesting consideing purpose of this board.
Hybrid is just another engine technology that is finally applicable to cars. In 10 years, we will be arguing over how Ford is talking out both sides of its mouth marketing a "Solar Cell clad Hydrogen fuel" car.
Let's talk about some new and fun hybrid technology!
Lol.
They will but it will not be available until maybe late 06 unfortunately
It is what I consider a beautiful automobile named the Ford Fusion. I am not sure which ICE they will be using or the particulars of the intake or even the hybrid drivetrain. Ford has another drivetrain besides the one similar to Toyota’s HSD like the one in the Escape and Mariner HEV’s today. With that, I hope it is both competitive in the FE department and price sensitive unlike most hybrids today. It is a larger car then the Prius II and AH but I haven’t a clue as to what kind of FE estimate it might achieve given the few scant details anyone has ever posted about it’s inner hybrid workings. I am not speaking about the near release of the std. Fusion but the Fusion w/ the hybrid drivetrain. By late 06, there will be other similar competition to deal with as well. Namely the newly redesigned Camry w/ HSD as well as the current performance hybrid in the AH with its redesign due out a year give or take a few months afterwards. My gut feeling is they will use the Mazda sourced 2.3 L - PZEV based - I4 with the same drivetrain as that in the Escape HEV today. It should not take an extra year of development for this solution given the way it can be almost a cookie cutter replacement so maybe Ford has something else up its sleeve?
___Then again, maybe it is the battery pack shortage that every one has been talking about for well over 2 years now Yes, that’s it! You know, it is so hard to ramp up the manufacture of very profitable hybrid packs to the tune of a few tens of thousands all the while the consumer electronics industry is absorbing millions of NiMH and Li-ION A - D cell’s where supply is not problem? Sorry about the conspiracy theory
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://www.hybridcars.com/altima.html
Yes, I forgot to mention the upcoming Altima hybrid And the Korean’s although I don’t think they are nearly as ready to launch anything as Ford and Toyota are today.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/news/driving/story.html?id=7efdbd2a-26cc-4621- -817b-b656e2540286
Rising petrol prices have been pushing buyers towards electric hybrids, small cars, diesels and other alternatives.
Regarding the above article, here are the facts about hybrids:
1). HEVs are coming under increasing criticism for failing to achieve figures promised by Toyota or Honda
2)The cost of hybrid systems make no economic sense whatsoever, even with current of higher gas prices(unless $6 per gallon)
3)While Toyota promise 60mpg, Prius driver are recording 40mpg(makes a TDI Jetta compelling)
4)Honda and Toyota will not provide more realistic gas mileage figures since the truth would put them at a competitive disadvantage. Deception is good business!
5)Since hybrids make no economic sense, manufacturers are trying to market HEVs as performance vehicles.
6) Last but not least Toyota is on the crossroads in deciding whether it should produce hev only cars like the Prius or as a hybrid option on mainstream cars like the Camry and Lexus GS.
About the same price as a Prius, lower fuel economy (about 38 mpg overall per EPA for the automatic, YMMV), about 25% higher fuel price than for a Prius, higher emissions, and worse predicted reliability? Not too compelling to me.
Meanwhile, Prius is the choice for HOUR Car in the Twin Cities:
http://www.hourcar.org/news_content.html#Anchor-11481
2) It's probably true if your car buying decision is all about bean counting. You'll end up with more money if you buy an old fashioned ICE. You have to decide if it's in your budget.
3) I grew up thinking that expensive cars were quiet and didn't smell bad. I don't see myself buying a diesel anytime soon.
4) Car companies can't publish different mileage numbers than the EPA. But everyone knows you don't get EPA numbers unless you drive like my 87 year old mother in law.
5) If the shoe fits, Punch it!
6) Yeah, Toyota may just give up on hybrids any day now. Do you think GM believed that? Are the GM big shots still trying to make up their minds? You snooze, you lose.
My friend has an Envoy and gets close to 14 in suburban driving. She loves it!
GM is scrambling to come up with a hybrid or something to compete. Heck, gas is now over $2.50 a gallon for regular on Long Island!!!
I can't wait to get my 06 Prius!!!!! I couldn't care less what the press says!! :P
1. Who cares about liberal criticism "for failure to achieve" ? I buy a car for my needs, not for anyone's approval. Criticisms can come from those whose market is taken by Hybrids and those who have NOT a technology to match it. Overall, high gas prices will teach us to curb our consumption and that's good for everyone.
2. Cost of hybrid makes sense to me economically and I drive 25k-30k miles a year (35,000km for the folks up north). Break even point is 2 years for me.
3. I also own 2 Prius cars. I get 54mpg in mix driving with AC set at 80F in 90-95F weather. That's 35C for folks up north.
4. Actual gas mileage is a large function of driving habits, outside weather, and load on the enginer including AC or heater. Published gas mileage is just a guide.
5. It costs around $50M-$150M to develop new technology, and some $40M to promote it. No right minded businessman is going to take a risky change on a new technology if there is no real fit (ie. not solving sufficient number of people's needs). It is not meeting your needs, then go find a vehicle that does.
6. Toyota signed supplier agreements with other large companies that produce parts for hybrids specifying high but justifiable volumes. That is commitment on every level: legal, economic, business, alliance/partnership, technical development, manufacturing infrastructure, marketing infrastructure.
Hybrid technology is inevitable. As a manufacturer, if you don't have hybrid in your products, your future sales will get dented seriously. And every smart manufacturers are working to perfect it, likely by alliance with those who already have it.
One minor clarification: those were not my own statements, but were based on the facts that were given in the article I linked!
What facts are they---why dont you read the article! The article reflects the opinion of a number of current and potential hybrid owners.
If you honestly think your opinions are truth and a large number of hybrid owners opinions are full of falsehoods, then I will leave alone with that delusion!
The fact is your breakeven analysis is greatly warped. Driving a lot of mileage is not going to help you much financially with the increased wear and tear on your batteries.
So you break even in 2 years with 50 -70k miles. What are the gas prices at your pumps: $6 a gallon. Otherwise the math just does not add up!
Oh yes and here is another warped statement full of falsehood:
When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified," acknowledged Kazuo Okamoto, the new head of R&D for Toyota Motor Co.,
Maxamigo, maybe you should write Mr Okamoto himself and inform him how deluded he is!! :P
perpetual batteries in a Prius. Impressive!!!!
I love visiting hybrid fantasyland
Thanks
On a sad note... Scotty from Star Trek passed away today. I bet if he lived in this century he would have driven a hybrid.