Here we go again...John Cusack driving a Prius in the movie "Must Love Dogs". What was also surprising was he was a builder of classic "skulls" and towards the end of the movie he has the small boat on a trailer being pulled by his hybrid Prius. This was quite a surprise since I've yet to locate a hitch for the Prius and no one seems to know where one exists except for Hollywood of course. Leave to Tinsel Town to take hybrid technology to the next level. Railroadjames(A Prius Can Haul Lite Wts) P.S. Although Toyota does not endorse trailering & the manual says"NYET" I see no problem with a small trailer for Lite hauling. If I could find a hitch.
I guess when the Camry comes out along with other manufactuers offerings the media may write about it. In the meantime I'm enjoying my 50 + MPG in the summer heat. I'm spending $23 every two weeks for gas. I love the hybrid technology.
Wayne... maybe you should follow along in your Accord and attempt to achieve a milestone as well. Based on what you've posted, you can probably set a record as well.
I am not sure if there is a correlation between the increasing gas prices and hybrid sales. I am SO glad I got mine before the rush. I have NO idea why the price keeps inching up. I feel sorry for the people that have to pay three times as much as I do for weekly fuel. Pity.
FYI, I purchased the hitch to use as a holder for my bike rack. Target currently has a deal on a rack under the Coleman name, but appears to be made by hollywoodracks.com marked down from $129.00 to $64.00. Gotta love it.
Hori believes that the poor sales of the new hybrids was due to the nearly 20 percent premium customers would have to pay for the ‘big electric appliance
Based on the blog below sales of HH and RH are dismal in Japan. The Japanese are a bit too shrewd to fall for that ploy called "it is worth the hybrid premium for the performance".
and Toyota is beginning to worry that investing in both hybrid and normal gasoline/diesel powertrains for the same model will not pay off. Hori sees that Toyota would need to develop hybrid models that are unique, vehicles without a normal equivalent, in order for the hybrid to be successful.
The above worry is valid! A Prius is a environmental status symbol. A hybrid Camry is a Camry unless you squint your eyes to decipher the hybrid logo on the car's rear end.
Until hybrid prices come down and your mechanic down the street can service them, people are going to need emotional incentives to get them to buy a hybrid, which means unique styling. A hybrid Camry will only do about as well as a hybrid Accord, which means not all that well. Build another exotic machine like the Prius, however, and you have a shot...
They offer a 4-cylinder "not souped up and priced up to the top of the line" Camry that gets about 34/39 MPG. That will be a marketing hit and a WAY smart move.
This conversation goes around the corner and never has any resolution. I can assure you that anyone with a post 2000 car better bring the car to their dealer if they want technicians worthy of working on your car. You can bring a hybrid in for brake jobs, oil changes, suspension etc. Try bringing in your 2003 Bimmer to Ernies Service Station. LOL... Yeah.. all cars are complicated today. What else is new. At least Toyota builds reliable vehicles that last. I'm a happy camper... 32,000 trouble free miles and always a smile on my face when I drive. Oil is near $63 a barrel and I couldn't care less. Gas would have to be $6.00 a gallon before I get that grin off my face.
They offer a 4-cylinder "not souped up and priced up to the top of the line" Camry that gets about 34/39 MPG. That will be a marketing hit and a WAY smart move.
Agree, but there is an equal likelihood it will be a V6. Here are the rumors:
If it is a 6 cyl it will do as well as the HAH. That means NOT good. I have no idea why they'd build one with a V6. Enough of the performance hybrids! We need ones that get mileage like the Prius. I look forward to seeing the new HCH... I hear it's gonna be quite different. Go hybrids!!!
thanks to the recently approved U.S. energy bill, the buyer of the RX 400h is eligible for up to $3,000 in federal tax credits, because he bought a hybrid. But the working stiff who bought the more fuel-economical Civic HX gets nothing.
Is that fair? ... why are people who buy and drive demonstrably more fuel-economical Toyota Echo and Corolla cars, or Honda Civic and Ford Focus models with traditional internal combustion engines, considered less deserving of tax breaks than people who can afford to buy more expensive hybrids?
When the '07 Altima and Fusion hybrids debut next year with 4-cylinder engines, we will see how the marketplace responds to that kind of car vs. the V6 offerings from Honda and Toyota. Although reports are that the Altima will be tuned for performance vs. max fuel economy. On the smaller side we'll have the new HCH and Accent hybrids, and of course the Prius.
Quoteth the Post Article:"why are people who buy and drive demonstrably more fuel-economical Toyota Echo and Corolla cars, or Honda Civic and Ford Focus models with traditional internal combustion engines, considered less deserving of tax breaks than people who can afford to buy more expensive hybrids?"
Here's the logical and undeniably true answer to that hopefully rhetorical question: Because buying a "standard gas engine Echo or Corolla" does NOTHING to promote Hybrid technology and thus enable the companies who are producing Hybrids to move forward with R&D to make the Hybrids of the future even MORE efficient and MORE affordable.
There is no reason to try and promote inexpensive, small "gas engine only" cars, because too many people need more room than that. Plus, there's no "fun factor" no "emotional benefit" to buying a car like that.
The more hybrids sold the better, in part because of the additional environmental benefits, but especially because it allows THE ECONOMY OF SCALE to take effect and make future Hybrids not only cheaper to buy but also cheaper to repair....Nothing bad can happen...
Makes a great deal of sense. It will be interesting to see what happens at the beginning of 2006 when the tax credit MAY take effect. With the credit, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to buy an HCH or Prius.
Post Article:"why are people who buy and drive demonstrably more fuel-economical internal combustion engines, considered less deserving of tax breaks than people who can afford to buy more expensive hybrids?"
Until it was written like this, I never thought about it like that. I actually have bigger issues with this energy law that goes beyond the scope of this forum.
But back to the tax credits, I do agree with what larsb wrote and the ultimate goal should be to promote technology that improves efficiency. If you look at the equations used in the new tax law, the level of credits are based upon IMPROVEMENT over previous MPH averages based on weight class. I think the realization here is that we (americans) will always drive a variety of different sized cars. While the small toyota echo gets good gas mileage, there's no significant improvement in that weight class compared to the 2002 reference. the lexus RH uses new technology to improve the mileage and is thus rewarded. Hey I think it would be great to see an Echo get 100 mpg- hopefully with more R&D in hybrids or whatever, we may see that one day.
I do think there's an element of "classism" to this law. It obviously benefits those that can afford to buy the new technology while others who are choosing to conserve energy in other ways don't get anything. But nothing's perfect. While I wasn't sitting on the committee that drafted this bill, I think its intention was to advance new technology- and that always costs money.
I think an interesting spin would have been to put a little spin into the bill. Imagine someone who gets a tax credit IF they trade in an SUV for say, an economical 4 cylinder car. I know it would never work, but it certainly would be interesting if they tried to do it. I definitely see your point on the "class" issue.
Imagine someone who gets a tax credit IF they trade in an SUV for say, an economical 4 cylinder car.
HA! do you think the Ford and GM lobbiests would allow congress to further cut demand of their high margin vehicles?
I don't really have a problem with the "classism" as I wrote. The financial burden of advances in new technology is usually shouldered by the "early adopters." This law just helps encourage people to become early adopters and possibly give hybrid technology a chance.
I'm willing to embrace any technology that will give me better fuel mileage. I am currently at 48.3 on this tank on Prius. I have 32,000 trouble free miles. I was going to trade it at 100,000 miles, but now I have decided to conduct a test. I want to see how many miles/years I can get out of it. My battery warranty is for 150,000 miles. I also have the extended warranty as well. I know that for at least the next five years, all I'll be paying for is oil changes and a few maintenace visits. Heck,, my front brake pads aren't even worn out yet!! This car continues to amaze me.
why are people who buy and drive demonstrably more fuel-economical Toyota Echo and Corolla cars, or Honda Civic and Ford Focus models with traditional internal combustion engines, considered less deserving of tax breaks than people who can afford to buy more expensive hybrids?
Because the buyers of traditional ICE has done nothing to promote hybrid technology. If they want to contribute and get a tax break, they can get a Prius instead of Corolla, Civic or Focus. For those who need SUVs in their lives, they deserve tax breaks for contributing to the hybrid technology just like buyers of Prius do. The fact of the matter is that having hybrid SUV like RX400H or HH at 27mpg instead of the conventional RX330/Highlander at 20mpg actually saves more gas than picking Prius over Corolla for the same distance travelled. Gallons per 100mile is what matters not mpg. Increase 33mpg to 50 mpg only save 1 gallon in 100miles, but increasing 20mpg to 27mpg saves 1.3 gallons; that's 30% more savings every 100 miles.
If the author's point is that SUV is not necessary, well, then is newspaper or reporter really *necessary*?
On one hand you want to promote hybrids and expand the number of hybrids sold, but then when a new manufacturer tries to do that but is shut down by insufficient supplies, you say they're "whining". Interesting.
Because the buyers of traditional ICE has done nothing to promote hybrid technology.
You're falling into the classic trap - technology for its own sake. The results are what matters. If a car or truck can achieve good mileage and low emissions, does it really matter what technology was used?
For example, the new Ford Explorer V6 has the same emissions level as the hybrid Escape. Is that green enough?
"Because the buyers of traditional ICE has done nothing to promote hybrid technology. If they want to contribute and get a tax break, they can get a Prius instead of Corolla, Civic or Focus."
Hmmm, I thought the point was to reduce emissions, no matter how, not to promote hybrid technology. Indeed, the only reasons the hybrids made the energy bill is that they reduce emissions.
And the person who bought that top-of-the-line Echo paid 10K less than the top-of-the-line Prius. They don't have the same comforts, but the Echo used less pollutants in manufacture, and gets very respectable mileage.
Hmmm, I thought the point was to reduce emissions, no matter how, not to promote hybrid technology. Indeed, the only reasons the hybrids made the energy bill is that they reduce emissions.
Tax break is about influencing people's behavior. If someone only needs a Corolla/Civic/Focus in their lives, there is no point giving them a tax incentive unless they want to go one step further on the fuel-saving path and get a Prius. If someone needs an SUV, it makes perfect sense to incentivize the person to get a hybrid that consumes less fuel for the same distance travelled. Current hybrid technology still cost too much to justify on fuel savings at the pump alone from a pure financial point of view; that's why there is such a tax break to begin with. It's not an emission tax break, it's part of an energy bill.
For example, the new Ford Explorer V6 has the same emissions level as the hybrid Escape. Is that green enough?
It's part of an energy bill, not emission bill. Emission level doesn't matter one squat.
I thought the Greens have been pushing for government subsidy for energy saving technology for years (which in itself I do not necessarily agree with), but come on now there is a tax incentive, all the tax-and-redistribute crowd comes out of the wood works. Should someone who owns no car at all get the tax break? Since he uses even less fuel and emit even less than the Corolla owner.
My point in "pointing out" Ford's whining is that Toyota and Honda were envisioning a future where Hybrids would be a good solution while Ford was busy building that wonderful Excursion Yacht.....Now that they did not plan properly, they are whining about unfair alliances......Seems like sour grapes on their part, and completely their own fault for not being an innovative leading company like Toyota and Honda.
As I see it...I've read several opinions and sometimes its just plain simple. Toyota & Honda have put a tremendous amount of research & developement into their "hybrid" line of cars. The $$$$$$ invested in this technology alone was a great risk and I didn't see Ford, G.M. or Chrysler even in the game except pushing SUV's by the thousands that stand to become relics as gas reaches the "magic" 3 bucks. I speak primarily of the Prius since I own one. It is, as Motor Trend, Car & Driver, and dozens of other auto publishings say, "a serious car for GREEN & ECONOMY". "IT DELIVERS WHERE OTHERS HAVE FAILED." When ever I here about the "extra cost" for a Prius over a ICE vehicle it is usually exagerated and no one gives credence to the fact that the hybrids will hold their "resale value" as time goes by (especially w/ high gas prices). The tide is definitly showing that "Hybrids" are coming in various types & models. This should quiet many of the "NAY SAYERS". Why not. The cars are delivering on the magority of expectations. Give Toyota & Honda credit for leading the way all the while up against many hurdles. Nuff Said!! Railroadjames ( Believe in Hybrids)
"When ever I here about the "extra cost" for a Prius over a ICE vehicle it is usually exagerated and no one gives credence to the fact that the hybrids will hold their "resale value" as time goes by (especially w/ high gas prices)."
Umm, will you please post your facts about how well the 2004 Prius will resell in 2008 or 2009? Thanks, I'm looking forward to it...
We should not forget that Toyota has some pretty bad polluters, with abysmal MPG, and pretty big vehicles for sale. I think Honda is actually a bit more ecologically sound as a company; they don't even manufacture a V-8...
And Ford and GM have been and are proceeding with other advanced technology work. Not that I'm a big fan of the Big 3, but just trying to be fair.
The American people wanted big vehicles; that is the simple reason they were (and are) built. If they don't sell well, they will die out and be replaced by other vehicles.
do a "google" search for prius and canada. They have a couple of articles about Prius's being used as taxi's in Canada and there is one that the driver is on his 3rd Prius. Toyota replaced his first at their expense to get it back for research. If I recall, he had something like 200,000 miles when they traded for it. He also said that he pays less than half of the usual maintanence on things like brakes as well as saving a HUGE amount on his gas. The company he's working for is replacing their standard vehicles with 30-40 Prius's per year currently.
Good luck and I'm sure you'll have plenty of enjoyable miles to go.
It's almost ludicrous to watch a "Hummer" ad on T.V., especially with oil @ over $65.00 a barrel and pump prices nearing and in some places topping the magic 3 bucks a gallon. Anybody seen any Ford Excursions on the road lately? America has got to get with the senseable program. Change is in order by demand and necessity. Today in the business news it indicated that airlines are short of fuel and scrambling to keep up with their demand and refinerys are struggling to keep up with demand leading to equipment failures ....our overwhelming dependancy on "middle east oil" has put us "over a barrel of oil" and that means the "heat is on" to make serious lifestyle changes or disaster is just around the corner. Hybids are helping but lead the way if only the public sees the light. Last point about the high cost of gas.....Ask gas station owners how many "drive offs" they get these days.... Your gonna hear about a real major problem that is epidemic in some areas. Locking gas caps are back in demand too. Railroadjames( Do you think "John Deere ever got a "Dear John" letter?) :confuse:
This could be a quirk meaning just one that got by Toyota but I would not speculate. These days alot of cars fall into the "cheap" plastic fit & finish. I've seen too many examples of junk look and fall apart moldings on several G.M. and Chrysler vehicles. Ford seems a bit of a cut above by many. I tend to agree. Anyone care to drop your opinion?
As usual, I always sense hybrid envy from girth (or is it mirth)? My Prius seems put together very well. I was in the Lexus and HH and it appears that they have a very good build quality too. Of course if you want to talk about loose fitting plastics, go no further than good 'ol American iron. The Germans make the nicest interiors. Go hybrid... or go BROKE...
That's excellent. Let's see which one if more comfortable, has more content etc. You really seem to enjoy reading the hybrid posts. Maybe one day you'll own one. I've ridden in the old JC and it is one of the worse riding vehicles I've ever been in. I wonder what mileage you're getting in the Navigator. EPA says 13/18. LOL. My new Prius will get 4 times your city mileage. Gotta love it!!!! HEHEHE
LOOK....We all would like Mercedees and BMW fit and finish but its not affordable. If you want that kind of quality its gonna cost you $$$$. I have a Prius and as much as I'd like to say its a beautiful car some of the fit & finish leaves abit to be desired. I paid just over 20K for the hybrid and can truthfully say that I love it for so many reasons..(especially gas economy these days) but Toyota can improve the fit & finish in my opinion. Lastly...Toyota, I think, gives a lot of bang for the buck. I just wish I could afford a Hybrid Beemer, that is, if they made one. Railroadjames (Want World Peace...Use Your Turn-Signal) :shades:
Comments
Railroadjames(A Prius Can Haul Lite Wts)
P.S. Although Toyota does not endorse trailering & the manual says"NYET" I see no problem with a small trailer for Lite hauling. If I could find a hitch.
Keep us posted on the results!!
http://tinyurl.com/8up8r
I am not sure if there is a correlation between the increasing gas prices and hybrid sales. I am SO glad I got mine before the rush. I have NO idea why the price keeps inching up. I feel sorry for the people that have to pay three times as much as I do for weekly fuel. Pity.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previews/58914/honda_civic.html
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm
FYI, I purchased the hitch to use as a holder for my bike rack. Target currently has a deal on a rack under the Coleman name, but appears to be made by hollywoodracks.com marked down from $129.00 to $64.00. Gotta love it.
Railroadjames(For World Peace...Use Your Turn-Signal)
Based on the blog below sales of HH and RH are dismal in Japan. The Japanese are a bit too shrewd to fall for that ploy called "it is worth the hybrid premium for the performance".
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000543053589/
and Toyota is beginning to worry that investing in both hybrid and normal gasoline/diesel powertrains for the same model will not pay off. Hori sees that Toyota would need to develop hybrid models that are unique, vehicles without a normal equivalent, in order for the hybrid to be successful.
The above worry is valid! A Prius is a environmental status symbol. A hybrid Camry is a Camry unless you squint your eyes to decipher the hybrid logo on the car's rear end.
They offer a 4-cylinder "not souped up and priced up to the top of the line" Camry that gets about 34/39 MPG. That will be a marketing hit and a WAY smart move.
Agree, but there is an equal likelihood it will be a V6. Here are the rumors:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/camry_hybrid_ru.html#more
.
thanks to the recently approved U.S. energy bill, the buyer of the RX 400h is eligible for up to $3,000 in federal tax credits, because he bought a hybrid. But the working stiff who bought the more fuel-economical Civic HX gets nothing.
Is that fair?
...
why are people who buy and drive demonstrably more fuel-economical Toyota Echo and Corolla cars, or Honda Civic and Ford Focus models with traditional internal combustion engines, considered less deserving of tax breaks than people who can afford to buy more expensive hybrids?
Here's the logical and undeniably true answer to that hopefully rhetorical question:
Because buying a "standard gas engine Echo or Corolla" does NOTHING to promote Hybrid technology and thus enable the companies who are producing Hybrids to move forward with R&D to make the Hybrids of the future even MORE efficient and MORE affordable.
There is no reason to try and promote inexpensive, small "gas engine only" cars, because too many people need more room than that. Plus, there's no "fun factor" no "emotional benefit" to buying a car like that.
The more hybrids sold the better, in part because of the additional environmental benefits, but especially because it allows THE ECONOMY OF SCALE to take effect and make future Hybrids not only cheaper to buy but also cheaper to repair....Nothing bad can happen...
Until it was written like this, I never thought about it like that. I actually have bigger issues with this energy law that goes beyond the scope of this forum.
But back to the tax credits, I do agree with what larsb wrote and the ultimate goal should be to promote technology that improves efficiency. If you look at the equations used in the new tax law, the level of credits are based upon IMPROVEMENT over previous MPH averages based on weight class. I think the realization here is that we (americans) will always drive a variety of different sized cars. While the small toyota echo gets good gas mileage, there's no significant improvement in that weight class compared to the 2002 reference. the lexus RH uses new technology to improve the mileage and is thus rewarded. Hey I think it would be great to see an Echo get 100 mpg- hopefully with more R&D in hybrids or whatever, we may see that one day.
I do think there's an element of "classism" to this law. It obviously benefits those that can afford to buy the new technology while others who are choosing to conserve energy in other ways don't get anything. But nothing's perfect. While I wasn't sitting on the committee that drafted this bill, I think its intention was to advance new technology- and that always costs money.
HA! do you think the Ford and GM lobbiests would allow congress to further cut demand of their high margin vehicles?
I don't really have a problem with the "classism" as I wrote. The financial burden of advances in new technology is usually shouldered by the "early adopters." This law just helps encourage people to become early adopters and possibly give hybrid technology a chance.
http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/050809/112361631824.html?.v=1
http://tinyurl.com/8ockz
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/08/A01-272872.htm
Because the buyers of traditional ICE has done nothing to promote hybrid technology. If they want to contribute and get a tax break, they can get a Prius instead of Corolla, Civic or Focus. For those who need SUVs in their lives, they deserve tax breaks for contributing to the hybrid technology just like buyers of Prius do. The fact of the matter is that having hybrid SUV like RX400H or HH at 27mpg instead of the conventional RX330/Highlander at 20mpg actually saves more gas than picking Prius over Corolla for the same distance travelled. Gallons per 100mile is what matters not mpg. Increase 33mpg to 50 mpg only save 1 gallon in 100miles, but increasing 20mpg to 27mpg saves 1.3 gallons; that's 30% more savings every 100 miles.
If the author's point is that SUV is not necessary, well, then is newspaper or reporter really *necessary*?
On one hand you want to promote hybrids and expand the number of hybrids sold, but then when a new manufacturer tries to do that but is shut down by insufficient supplies, you say they're "whining". Interesting.
You're falling into the classic trap - technology for its own sake. The results are what matters. If a car or truck can achieve good mileage and low emissions, does it really matter what technology was used?
For example, the new Ford Explorer V6 has the same emissions level as the hybrid Escape. Is that green enough?
Hmmm, I thought the point was to reduce emissions, no matter how, not to promote hybrid technology. Indeed, the only reasons the hybrids made the energy bill is that they reduce emissions.
And the person who bought that top-of-the-line Echo paid 10K less than the top-of-the-line Prius. They don't have the same comforts, but the Echo used less pollutants in manufacture, and gets very respectable mileage.
Tax break is about influencing people's behavior. If someone only needs a Corolla/Civic/Focus in their lives, there is no point giving them a tax incentive unless they want to go one step further on the fuel-saving path and get a Prius. If someone needs an SUV, it makes perfect sense to incentivize the person to get a hybrid that consumes less fuel for the same distance travelled. Current hybrid technology still cost too much to justify on fuel savings at the pump alone from a pure financial point of view; that's why there is such a tax break to begin with. It's not an emission tax break, it's part of an energy bill.
It's part of an energy bill, not emission bill. Emission level doesn't matter one squat.
I thought the Greens have been pushing for government subsidy for energy saving technology for years (which in itself I do not necessarily agree with), but come on now there is a tax incentive, all the tax-and-redistribute crowd comes out of the wood works. Should someone who owns no car at all get the tax break? Since he uses even less fuel and emit even less than the Corolla owner.
When ever I here about the "extra cost" for a Prius over a ICE vehicle it is usually exagerated and no one gives credence to the fact that the hybrids will hold their "resale value" as time goes by (especially w/ high gas prices). The tide is definitly showing that "Hybrids" are coming in various types & models. This should quiet many of the "NAY SAYERS". Why not. The cars are delivering on the magority of expectations. Give Toyota & Honda credit for leading the way all the while up against many hurdles. Nuff Said!!
Railroadjames ( Believe in Hybrids)
Umm, will you please post your facts about how well the 2004 Prius will resell in 2008 or 2009? Thanks, I'm looking forward to it...
If a person needs an SUV, they will not buy a Prius. It won't seat 6, for example, and it won't tow a big boat.
If they are only using that SUV to go to the grocery store, that is a different story, but then they don't need the SUV.
And Ford and GM have been and are proceeding with other advanced technology work. Not that I'm a big fan of the Big 3, but just trying to be fair.
The American people wanted big vehicles; that is the simple reason they were (and are) built. If they don't sell well, they will die out and be replaced by other vehicles.
Good luck and I'm sure you'll have plenty of enjoyable miles to go.
Ken
Last point about the high cost of gas.....Ask gas station owners how many "drive offs" they get these days.... Your gonna hear about a real major problem that is epidemic in some areas. Locking gas caps are back in demand too.
Railroadjames( Do you think "John Deere ever got a "Dear John" letter?) :confuse:
http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan11e_20050811.htm
9 weeks for Zelda!!!">
Railroadjames (Want World Peace...Use Your Turn-Signal) :shades: