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Comments
Why do you believe Honda won't also offer a 4-cylinder?
JOHN
Those two types of hybrid are fundamentally different.
FULL can power the electric motor without using the battery-pack at all.
FULL can power the electric motor and recharge the battery-pack simultaneously.
FULL can propel the vehicle without the engine spinning.
ASSIST cannot do any of the above, which means there are certain things that it cannot do the same way... like dealing with stop & slow traffic or climbing a hill.
JOHN
Honda V6 is much smoother and quieter with lower RPMs than the 4 cylinder on the highway.
If engines are running at idle, V6 has much less vibration.
Passing power on hills or highway is much greater with the V6.
Towing and heavier loads are possible with the V6.
Camry Hybrid is about economy; the Accord Hybrid is about power, handling, and overall performance. Both can do the job as they were intended- the missions are just different.
You tell me. Both were supposedly ALL presold. Yet most of the posters here on Edmund's walked in off the street and bought one. Most of the dealers have the RH & HH available. I think they are selling well. Not as Toyota/Lexus bragged in the news. They are selling better than Honda hybrids. I think it gets back to Honda does not like to sell anything as a "Loss Leader". Toyota is working on their image and it is just peanuts to them.
The figures for the S 350 BLUETEC HYBRID - that's the diesel one - are similarly impressive: 240bhp, 36.7mpg and 0-62mph in 7.2 seconds. But the main aim with the diesel is to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions (see feature), the only form of exhaust nastiness which diesel engines still produce in greater quantities than petrol ones. Mercedes claims that NOx output has been reduced by 80% thanks to BLUETEC, a new exhaust purification technology achieved through selective catalytic reduction.
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/2005/september/14/6953.asp
OK Gar-Bear, lets' take these one at a time, 'K?
"Both were supposedly presold." - I think what you are referring to is the 12,000 "pre-orders" that were received for the Lexus RX400h. And that was an absolutely true number. What happened is that many of the first 12,000 "pre-orderers" backed out of their commitment, for whatever reason. That happens EVERY TIME any newly release car is pre-ordered in large quantities. People who order them ahead of time have "life changes" which require them to cancel the order. Changed jobs, lost jobs, decided on another car, got a divorce, got married, relocated, won the lottery - there are hundreds if not thousands of reasons why someone would have to cancel the order of a $48,000 vehicle a few months after deciding to buy it. It has nothing to do with the hybrid itself. So that made "floor stock" available to the walk-in public.
"They are selling better than the Honda Hybrids" - that is true because Toyota sells far more cars than Honda, PERIOD, and has many more dealerships. This phenomenon is not new to "hybrids" either - Toyota has ALWAYS OUTSOLD Honda in the USA. Toyota's manufacturing capacity is larger and they can meed the demand, while Honda does not have the flexibility to increase production very quickly like that. Honda had their "best ever month in the USA" in August 2005, and sold more hybrids that month than ever. Sure, some of that has to do with the recent gas prices problem, but as for reasons, who cares why? It means more hybrids on the road (good for us all) and more money in Honda's pockets for R&D to make better and more efficient hybrids in the future (good for us all.)
And I'm not even going into that "loss leader" thing because you are too set in your beliefs to change you, but I can guarantee you Toyota is not selling Hybrids at a loss.
Those two types of hybrid are fundamentally different. "
John,
The 2006 HCH will have the capability to run on pure electric up to a certain speed. They basically doubled the electric motor capacty. That puts it in the same category as the Prius.
Also, you might want to mention in such discussions that the Prius will not operate without electric power, while the Honda IMA will function even with a dead traction battery. With the "pure electric" startup capability, I think this actually makes the IMA superior to the electric components of the HSD system.
I doubt it will be even close to the 41 MPH offered by Prius. And the range will definitely be shorter, since the capacity of the battery-pack is much smaller.
> That puts it in the same category as the Prius.
Not even close. The Honda has just one motor, a 15kW. The Toyota has *TWO* motors, a 10kW and a 50kW. The Toyota also has the ability to stop the engine motion when the motor is being used, the Honda doesn't. They are most definitely not the same.
> you might want to mention in such discussions that the Prius will not operate without electric power, while the Honda IMA will function even with a dead traction battery.
Then you might want to mention that the Honda will operate in an limited fashion, since the ability to recharge the 12-volt depends on the IMA. So the moment the engine shuts off, you may be stuck without the ability to start it back up.
JOHN
Let me get this straight. You are both saying the two main systems used in the hybrids are highly flawed? That you would be better off with an ICE only car.
Finally someone agrees with me...
The reliability of the electric drive is quite a bit higher than that of a combustion engine. So your logic would be highly flawed... if it wasn't for the fact that you're splitting hairs about a statistically insignificant problem anyway. Heck, the odds of a combustion engine struggling from a simple thing like water in the line is dramatically more likely than that an electric drive failure.
The FULL hybrid has proven to start much easier in the winter than an ICE only car. Why haven't you mentioned that? With a far more powerful starter and a far more powerful battery (not to mention an engine designed for easier starting), the ICE only simply cannot compete.
JOHN
Ford Motor Co. Chairman and CEO Bill Ford during a news conference, Sept. 21, 2005. (AP Photo/Amy E. Powers)
Ford Motor Co. Chairman and CEO Bill Ford said the No. 2 U.S. automaker will be able to produce 250,000 hybrids in the next five years.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2005/09/21/Ford_hubrid20050921.html
Hybrids a terrible business prospect?
...which is the very reason I've been endorsing the FULL hybrid technology so much. And if you read just a few posts back, Ford announced they will be expanding their selection of FULL hybrids. That is hybrid news, especially since it stiffles the ASSIST technology and totally squashes those vehicles labeled as hybrids that don't actually provide any thrust whatsoever from an electric motor or even a smog-related emission reduction.
JOHN
That quote from the article doesn't make any sense.
How exactly would they impose?
All Toyota did was offer their hybrid at sticker price, one that would ultimately yield a profit after the R&D was paid off. The result has been a demand so high that people are willing to wait months for delivery.
JOHN
I thought shutting the engine down while stopped was cutting emissions. I guess it fooled the EPA & CARB. I don't have to get any smog checks on my GMC Sierra Hybrid.
I think what the CEO of Nissan is saying "hybrids do not make any sense". If people are willing to dump money into them he will sell them. He does not plan to spend any money on R&D. He will just buy the stuff from Toyota. Which should be coming down in price when they get the production in China up and running in the next few months.
Nissan should call their hybrid an AltiPus!
JOHN
JOHN
Demand so high? You must mean suppy so small. Hybrids are less than 1% of global sales. Miniscule! Does not require much of a demand to exceed supply at this production level.
Toyota is kind of the De Boers of the hybrid world. Dribble them out to give the illusion that they are more valuable than they really are.
That quote from the article doesn't make any sense.
Makes perfect sense. Toyota is imposing the technology thru advertising propaganda, government is imposing hybrids thru tax credits and other legislation such as HOV lanes allowing hybrids. Carlos is simpy stating that hybrid tech. should not be forced on others.
You folks can trash hybrids all you want. The thousands of people that own them now are all smug as $3 gas will be the norm in short order. As an analogy, 95% of computer owners are operating on Windows, the rest are Mac (forget Linux for the moment). The MAC users though small in number are always laughing when the Windows folks get spyware, viruses etc.
Really? Imposing means to force or obtrude. Since when are they doing that? For that matter, how often do you ever even see a hybrid advertisement of any type?
> Carlos is simpy stating that hybrid tech. should not be forced on others.
Again, what evidence is there of forcing? The tax credits are limited & expiring, for the sake of jump-starting the automakers far behind the competition. The HOV lane legislation does not allow HOV use. All it does is authorize individual states to make the decision to offer qualified hybrids (many don't meet the minimum criteria) to help relieve congestion, which will also expire and intended to help the competition catch up.
JOHN
What kind of lame anti-hybrid excuse is that? Popular new vehicles, like Scion, don't even sell that many per model per year. Just think of the impact PZEV will do if each of the 60,000,000 new vehicles each year worldwide were that clean. And imagine how much less gas would be used.
Entirely new technologies don't get adopted overnight. Look at the computer industry. Their product costs far less than a vehicle and has a shorter useful lifetime. Yet, people continue to buy older technology anyway... even if it costs difference for the newer is very little or none.
The reality is that Prius was breaking all time growth records for entirely new technologies, even before gas prices began to surge. And once brand recognition for that technology, namely HSD, is established, growth for it is very likely to continue.
Camry-Hybrid will definitely trouble the competition, who is already struggling by having to offer employee discounts. Dropping cost due to increased production volume will make the situation even worse.
Face it, seeing 200,000 Prius now on roads in the United States will contribute to increased sales. It's just like the invasion of the SUV back in the early 90's. Their numbers were low back then too. And the reason for buying one didn't even make sense. Yet years later, they dominated the market.
It's only a matter of time.
JOHN
There are omissions too, like not mentioning the battery lawsuit and production capacity limitations... which affects availability.
JOHN
Here's what I would call an op-ed piece (vs. news) on a group that is against the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers because it doesn't believe they have done enough to reduce CO2 emissions, even in hybrids:
http://ucsaction.org/campaign/7_05_nissan_hyundai/explanation
news - Information about recent events or happenings, especially as reported by newspapers, periodicals, radio, or television.
Porshe and VW to develop hybrid This is news.
blog
buyers seek HP
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8427
Railroadjames(Free-us Prius)
Almost 100,000 WoW! Compare that to the 427,000 Camrys sold in US in 2004. Compare that to the projected 180,000 Jeep Libertys that will be made in Toledo, Ohio in 2005. With all the hype about hybrids I am shocked that Prius is such a small piece of the market.
That's extraordinarily misleading. Sales of *ALL* other cars by *ALL* other pale in comparison to Camry, since it is the #1 selling car in America.
Why not mention that Prius ranks #3 for the most sold car in Toyota's offering?
Why not mention that Prius production is limited to the supply of battery-pack modules provided by Panasonic?
Why not mention that Highlander-Hybrid and RX400h are both competing for those same battery-pack module supply?
Why not mention that the price of gas was an entire $1 per gallon cheaper earlier this year?
JOHN
And the Prius is growing faster year over year than most other car models. Camry hybrid will have a big impact on the Prius model's growth, but should increase overall hybrid sales.
People are slow to change. Sustained higher gas prices will be a catalyst. If gas stayed < $2 a gallon then the average buyer wouldn't be interested in fuel economy, but with higher prices, consumer sentiment will change . . . slowly.
I guess you haven't read the new specs, the HCH will have over 30Kw, they doubled the capacity.
"Then you might want to mention that the Honda will operate in an limited fashion, since the ability to recharge the 12-volt depends on the IMA. So the moment the engine shuts off, you may be stuck without the ability to start it back up."
Well, I have read posts from people who were running without the electrical parts of the IMA, maybe they were using jumper cables every morning... I was basing my reply on having read these posts.
The peak overall system power could very well be 30kW, hence "capacity".
But the motor itself certainly isn't. The specs I've read clearly state 15kW.
JOHN