"Honda also sold an all-time record number of hybrid vehicles, with September sales increasing 180.3 percent to 4,351 and year-to-date sales increasing 79.4 percent to 35,552. The popular Civic Hybrid had best-ever September sales of 1,916, up 24.8 percent over last year, and Accord Hybrid posted its best sales month ever at 2,352."
What kind of hybrid is available for the Average car buyer? One maybe two? That leaves the Civic hybrid a bit on the high side price wise. The Prius definetly more than Joe average will want to spend. My point is all kinds of high end hybrids being offered and proposed. Do you see anything Civic size or lower priced on the horizon? Hybrids are only for the upper middle class. Right today a Civic hybrid in CA is $4k to $5k higher than a Civic EX. If you are not flush with cash you will probably buy the low end Civic which is $8k cheaper than the HCH. Don't look for the hybrid to become popular until the mainstream buyers have a hybrid they can afford.
Nearly 130 K + Hybrid vehicles were sold in the YTD 2005 so far. If it hits 166 K by the end of this year, that will be a 100 % growth rate and it will also give a 1 % US market share.
So no one will use the word "Fraction of a %age".
With many new models in the coming year, I guess the Hybrid sales will be doubling every year.
When battery production increases, the hybrid premium will slowly decline.
Other trends Diesel is gaining increasing market share.
SUV sales have taken a battering with Explorer, Expedition, Suburban, Tahoe suffering 50 % sales decline in Sep-2005 compared to Sep-2004.
Excursion bids goodbye.
New models of CUV's, Hatchback's are coming in like Yaris, Versa, Caliber, etc.
All this points towards more efficient fuel usage.
Upper middle class? I beg to differ. The average transaction price for a 2005 auto has got to be low to mid 20's. Right in the Prius ballpark. That's why they can't keep 'em on the lots! Can't wait for mine!!
GM and Ford had a terrible Sept after giving away the farm for the entire summer. Here comes reality time. As usual, the Japanese came away unscathed though their truck sales were down too. Hybrid sales continue to flourish.
GM and Ford had a terrible Sept after giving away the farm for the entire summer.
Sales have their ups and downs. If you were paying attention the Prius had a horrible month in July, off 57% from the prior month. Or could it be the current sales is just kneejerk reaction to the upswing in gas prices. What happens when the gas price drops back to 2 bucks a gallon?
Has anyone been noticing the GM ads that focus on fuel efficiency?
I know we are interested in hybrids. But it's just as good for the country if you can get someone to buy a Monte Carlo getting 30 mpg if they were thinking of buying something else that only gets 15 mpg.
Are you kidding? Toyota measures inventory in hours for the Prius!!! GM and Ford have to sell their goods like it's a fire sale to get anyone into their doors. Toyota and Honda didn't drop their prices and they still had growth. What does that tell ya??? LOLLLL.. Have you forgotten that the Prius was a hit before gas hit 2 bucks a gallon?? Didn't think so!!
Toyota has allocated only 100,000 units of Prius for USA in 2005. Already they have sold 81,000 units, that leaves only another 19,000.
So we cannot expect record sales of Prius in the next 3 months. However if they use the assembley lines of closed models like Echo, Celica, MR2 for Prius, then its sales may increase.
Have you forgotten that the Prius was a hit before gas hit 2 bucks a gallon?? Didn't think so!!
Prius is expected to sell 100,000 in 12 months. GM sells over 100,000 full size pickups per month. What does that tell ya??? LOLLLL.. Was the Echo a hit? Was the Celica a hit? Was the MR2 a hit? How many SUV and Truck models does Toyota have? Looks like Toyota has Truck and SUV envy and GM and Ford are the leaders.
This forum is inhabited by quite a few diehard brand cheerleaders.
How about less brand loyal cheers and more focus on "Hybrid in the News".
Well here is my contribution for tonight:
Porsche buys 20% of VW! What have these two companies in common before Porsche's bidding announcement? A joint venture in hybrids. My bet is that the hybrid system in the Audi Q7 will be identical to most likely introduction of the Porshe Cayenne!
Also Daimler Chyryler expressed an interest to purchase an additional 20% of VW. If such a purchase happens what is the likelihood that DC will remain in a GM-BMW hybrid alliance? My guess unlikely! Most likely DC will instead join its investment partners Porsche/VW in some hybrid venture!
What about Subaru which is owned by Fuji a powerful battery manufacter. That fact alone will give Subaru a competitive advantage over other auto firms. And what about GM that is a major investor of Subaru? Most likely GM will benefit and receive some future Subaru hybrid know-how.
Have you forgotten that the Prius was a hit before gas hit 2 bucks a gallon?? Didn't think so!!
Poway Toyota had 11 on the lot when I bought my GMC next door the end of June. The Prius II have not been flying off the dealers lots since introduced two years ago. Check July sales, not so good. This buyer had the choice of 7 when he bought his. Also I can buy a Camry or Accord today for under invoice.
I guess you forgot to read the article of inventory. GM SUVs are piling up. People were enticed with the fire sale. Now that GM has returned to overcharging (overpriced garbage) they are in deep trouble. Even without resorting to tactics, the Japanese car manufacturers still had growth. Face it, GM is cooked. Now they are trying to get into the hybrid arena with zero R & D. Oh yes... they have their generator truck they call a hybrid. LM&O!!! Virtually every car manufacturer is now investing in hybrid technology.
Agreement with most of your comments but as to G.M. I suggest a more tollerent view be taken. G.M. has been working hard on various technologies to curtail the dependancy on "OIL". I personally think the Toyota Synergy sys. is an effective path at this time. Later this could easily change as technology often does progress forward. Is GM in trouble? Oh yeah!! But, just like Chrysler they'll bounce back. Lets hope so. I've owned many a Ford, Chrysler, and G.M. that were worthy of praise and now with my Prius I've found a car worthy of praise in a green way that needed to be addressed now. Frankly, I don't understand a great deal of criticizm of hybrids. It seems much ado about nothing.I don't hear Hummer, Excursion, or Navigator owners happy about their monthly gas bills. A Doctor I know got rid of his gas hog saying he needed to present an image to his flock that he too made rational choices for transportation. What did he buy? A Prius with a sunroof installed. Why didn't I think of that!! Railroadjames (Prius will Free us) :shades:
"American drivers who purchase newer, cleaner-burning diesel cars, trucks and SUVs will soon be eligible for the same kind of tax incentives as purchasers of gasoline-hybrid electric vehicles under a new national energy plan expected to be signed into law soon by President George W. Bush. Along with hybrids, clean diesel vehicles offer a fuel sipping alternative that is 20 to 40 percent more efficient than gasoline alternatives, according to the Diesel Technology Forum (DTF).
"Congress and the president recognize the important role clean diesel technology will play in meeting America’s future energy and environmental goals," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of DTF. The U.S. Department of Energy reports that if diesel vehicles reached a 30 percent market share by 2020, it would reduce U.S. consumption of oil by 350,000 barrels a day.
Beginning January 1, 2006, the new law allows consumers who purchase some new diesel-powered cars, light trucks and SUVs to be eligible for up to $3,400 in tax credits based on the weight, fuel efficiency rating and emissions level of the vehicle, as determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The credit is available through December 31, 2010."
"YOKOHAMA, Japan (AP) - Mazda Motor Corp. has developed a new type of hybrid car that runs by switching between an electric motor and a hydrogen-powered engine, and then automatically shifts to gasoline when it runs out of hydrogen.
The experimental "concept car" Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid currently can travel only about 100 kilometers (62 miles) on hydrogen. That can be a problem because hydrogen fueling stations are still rare.
It was shown to reporters on Tuesday at a research center in Yokohama, west of Tokyo, ahead of the Tokyo auto show opening this month. There are no current plans for commercial sales."
And how many of those 100,000 Trucks are fleet sales to various business. Full size pickups are not a niche market the Prius is. 100,000 units a year is huge for a niche vehicle.
The celica was a great car. It had a nearly 30 year production run in various forms.
I was talking to my father-in-law today about his hybrid. A guy butts in to our conversation to tell us how stupid it is for people to buy a hybrid. How it doesn't make economic sense, yada yada. (we've been through this a few time, eh?) His wife drives a new Expedition (or a vehicle like it) every three years. And he's lecturing ME about decisions based on "economics?" And then he says "I am an economist" What a bag of hot air. I reminded him that, as an economist, he should know that people make their purchasing decisions based on MANY factors, and almost NEVER on ONE factor. Even that didn't shut the guy up. Talk about being on a soap box.
quote adp3- I was talking to my father-in-law today about his hybrid. I reminded him that, as an economist, he should know that people make their purchasing decisions based on MANY factors, and almost NEVER on ONE factor. Even that didn't shut the guy up. Talk about being on a soap box. -end
Maybe, just maybe, the guy had experienced too many hybrid owners that would not get off of their soap boxes.
in my experience, the anti-hybrid folks are way more excited to state their position than any pro-hybrid folks I know
i was having a PRIVATE conversation, not very loud, and this dude butted in. Neither my f-in-law nor I were on any soapbox. In fact, we were discussing some of the downsides of various hybrid technologies
it's pretty much the same way here in Edmunds, though I'd expect it here since most people here are way more into horsepower than efficiency
it was pretty odd - we were in a hospital waiting room. I guess people figure every thing is fair game there? weird. Still, it was fun to try my argument out on him: My pet peeve is people wyho criticize hybrid buyers based on economic grounds, but don't evaluate their OWN car-buying decision on purely economic grounds.
He finally admitted that there is lots of cool technology in hybrids
and he liked my anecdote of my friend who bought a hybrid because he likes women who like hybrids. (and this friend is dating a VERY hot, enviro-chick, now, so I am not gonna win any argument with HIM about not buying a hybrid) :-)
It probably could, but a regualr car would have to run its engine non-stop, and would waste a lot of gas.
The ability to use the vehicle as a generator is one of GM's big selling points for their hybrid pickups. Even though the mileage gains are minimal, I bet a lot of people who use their trucks for work in remote locations will buy the GM hybrids because they won't have to buy, and cary around, a generator.
"People see $100 fill-ups and wonder what the hell they are doing," Healy said. "Even the rich who can afford it realize that maybe these vehicles don't do much more than a sensible vehicle could."
Boy, that guy is some kind of irritating. Attacking Toyota for promoting a green, efficient, fuel-usage-reducing, clean-air-enhancing technology like HSD is a little ridiculous.
On the same page, he gives GM four UP stars, after giving Toyota four DOWN stars.
Toyota does have some really hokey commercials. The Prius commercial is over the top. Others are the Corolla and Camry commercials where people are drooling over their beauty with amazement when those two cars look about as generic as any cars on the road. When I see those commercials, it is hard not to laugh.
I actually even laugh more at the GM commercials that are touting mileage. I wonder why they don't reveal the mileage of their flagship trucks. Autoextremist is merely a version of O'Reilly on steroids. A real shmuck. Go hybrid!! GM is... LOL LOL LOL...
Have you seen the ad? Toyota did not develop the HSD because they care. They were persuaded by the Japanese government with MONEY so Japan could meet the challenge of the Kyoto treaty they were sucked into.
I have not seen the above mentioned ad. I saw the RX400h ad which is stupid. I would not expect an intelligent being to be duped. I will wait until I see the ad before I pass judgment on the autoextremist.
Regardless of their intent or their reasons for making the HSD system, they HAVE DONE IT and the environment is better off because of it.
The HSD commerical is a "what if?" scenario that works in concept like this:
"What If every car on the planet had HSD?"
The reality of that statement is the fact that IF someone could wave a magic wand and EVERY CAR on the planet was poofed into a Prius and that if EVERY SUV on the planet was poofed into a Highlander Hybrid, the world would be a cleaner place, the air would be cleaner, and we would all benefit. There is no disputing that the result of that would be indicative of what the ad portrays.
That is ABSOLUTELY a fact. That's all the ad insinuates. Nothing silly or laughable about that.
I actually even laugh more at the GM commercials that are touting mileage. I wonder why they don't reveal the mileage of their flagship trucks.
Hmm, didn't see the Toyota ads touting their trucks' mileage (or lack thereof). Or mentioning their new large pickup truck plant in Texas. Is that going to make the air cleaner, lol?
I wonder why they don't reveal the mileage of their flagship trucks.
Actually the GM full size PU trucks get better mileage than the Toyota full size trucks. Are you trying to say that Toyota is hoping the green glow over the Prius will make all their big polluters look better?
If you are referring to the large 3/4 ton plus trucks, you need to take up your complaint with the EPA. They make the rules, not GM
Their balance sheet and income statement surely look better :P Too bad GM can't compete in this competetive market. It just goes to show you all the sore losers who come to the hybrid forum to vent their anger. I do have pity on them. Toyota will be putting the HSD in virtually all their cars and trucks by the end of the decade. They had the insight to see the future. GM has been looking through rose colored glasses. First to criticize, and the last to jump on the hybrid movement. Typical!! I hope their first effort isn't like the Citation or Chevette. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comments
Land Rover
Lexus GS450H
Audi Q7
Those will not be "average car buyer" vehicles.
2005-09 Toyota Hybrid Sales - OK
Prius - 8,193
HH - 2,715
RX400h - 2,113
Total - 13,021
Its not so great. Have they sold out all 2005 Model of Prius.
Still Prius Sales increased by 90 % compares to 2004-09.
"Honda also sold an all-time record number of hybrid vehicles, with
September sales increasing 180.3 percent to 4,351 and year-to-date sales
increasing 79.4 percent to 35,552. The popular Civic Hybrid had best-ever
September sales of 1,916, up 24.8 percent over last year, and Accord Hybrid
posted its best sales month ever at 2,352."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-03-2005/00041583- 80&EDATE=
Honda - 4,351
Ford - 1,808
Total - 19,180
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=21608
I guess September is generally a low sales month with its 30 days.
Meanwhile Ford has sold 15,000 Hybrid Escapes.
Bingo!!
What kind of hybrid is available for the Average car buyer? One maybe two? That leaves the Civic hybrid a bit on the high side price wise. The Prius definetly more than Joe average will want to spend. My point is all kinds of high end hybrids being offered and proposed. Do you see anything Civic size or lower priced on the horizon? Hybrids are only for the upper middle class. Right today a Civic hybrid in CA is $4k to $5k higher than a Civic EX. If you are not flush with cash you will probably buy the low end Civic which is $8k cheaper than the HCH. Don't look for the hybrid to become popular until the mainstream buyers have a hybrid they can afford.
Prius
Insight
HCH
Escape Hybrid
Mariner Hybrid (pre-order now, on sale very soon)
Camry Hybrid (soon enough)
All those hybrids can be had for around or below $30,000, which is now the "average new car price" in the USA.
What is the dominant vehicle type over the last 7-8 years in the USA? The SUV, many of which cost $45k, $40K, $35K, $30K.
The "average car buyer" managed to buy those expensive SUVs, and they can manage to buy the current crop of Hybrids too.
If it hits 166 K by the end of this year, that will be a 100 %
growth rate and it will also give a 1 % US market share.
So no one will use the word "Fraction of a %age".
With many new models in the coming year, I guess the Hybrid sales
will be doubling every year.
When battery production increases, the hybrid premium will slowly
decline.
Other trends
Diesel is gaining increasing market share.
SUV sales have taken a battering with Explorer, Expedition, Suburban,
Tahoe suffering 50 % sales decline in Sep-2005 compared to Sep-2004.
Excursion bids goodbye.
New models of CUV's, Hatchback's are coming in like Yaris, Versa, Caliber, etc.
All this points towards more efficient fuel usage.
HCH Sales
I'd be willing to bet they sell a lot more than 40,000.
GM and Ford had a terrible Sept after giving away the farm for the entire summer. Here comes reality time. As usual, the Japanese came away unscathed though their truck sales were down too. Hybrid sales continue to flourish.
Sales have their ups and downs. If you were paying attention the Prius had a horrible month in July, off 57% from the prior month. Or could it be the current sales is just kneejerk reaction to the upswing in gas prices. What happens when the gas price drops back to 2 bucks a gallon?
a FEW HUNDRED yards? who the heck is gonna use that?
if they had quarterly numbers to meet, and the quyarter ended in June, then June would be a huge month - guaranteed
I know we are interested in hybrids. But it's just as good for the country if you can get someone to buy a Monte Carlo getting 30 mpg if they were thinking of buying something else that only gets 15 mpg.
So we cannot expect record sales of Prius in the next 3 months. However if they use the assembley lines of closed models like Echo, Celica, MR2 for Prius, then its sales may increase.
Prius is expected to sell 100,000 in 12 months. GM sells over 100,000 full size pickups per month. What does that tell ya??? LOLLLL.. Was the Echo a hit? Was the Celica a hit? Was the MR2 a hit? How many SUV and Truck models does Toyota have? Looks like Toyota has Truck and SUV envy and GM and Ford are the leaders.
This forum is inhabited by quite a few diehard brand cheerleaders.
How about less brand loyal cheers and more focus on "Hybrid in the News".
Well here is my contribution for tonight:
Porsche buys 20% of VW!
What have these two companies in common before Porsche's bidding announcement? A joint venture in hybrids. My bet is that the hybrid system in the Audi Q7 will be identical to most likely introduction of the Porshe Cayenne!
Also Daimler Chyryler expressed an interest to purchase an additional 20% of VW.
If such a purchase happens what is the likelihood that DC will remain in a GM-BMW hybrid alliance? My guess unlikely! Most likely DC will instead join its investment partners Porsche/VW in some hybrid venture!
What about Subaru which is owned by Fuji a powerful battery manufacter. That fact alone will give Subaru a competitive advantage over other auto firms. And what about GM that is a major investor of Subaru? Most likely GM will benefit and receive some future Subaru hybrid know-how.
Poway Toyota had 11 on the lot when I bought my GMC next door the end of June. The Prius II have not been flying off the dealers lots since introduced two years ago. Check July sales, not so good. This buyer had the choice of 7 when he bought his. Also I can buy a Camry or Accord today for under invoice.
fndlyfmrflyr, "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" #379, 3 Oct 2005 10:07 pm
Air traffic controllers are going to have to deal with a lot of pigs...
jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 8100 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 47.6MPG
SUV inventory build up is affecting the whole industry( including your most beloved and adored company called Toyota).
Railroadjames (Prius will Free us) :shades:
"American drivers who purchase newer, cleaner-burning diesel cars, trucks and SUVs will soon be eligible for the same kind of tax incentives as purchasers of gasoline-hybrid electric vehicles under a new national energy plan expected to be signed into law soon by President George W. Bush. Along with hybrids, clean diesel vehicles offer a fuel sipping alternative that is 20 to 40 percent more efficient than gasoline alternatives, according to the Diesel Technology Forum (DTF).
"Congress and the president recognize the important role clean diesel technology will play in meeting America’s future energy and environmental goals," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of DTF. The U.S. Department of Energy reports that if diesel vehicles reached a 30 percent market share by 2020, it would reduce U.S. consumption of oil by 350,000 barrels a day.
Beginning January 1, 2006, the new law allows consumers who purchase some new diesel-powered cars, light trucks and SUVs to be eligible for up to $3,400 in tax credits based on the weight, fuel efficiency rating and emissions level of the vehicle, as determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The credit is available through December 31, 2010."
OK, all you diesel fans, get ur Checkbooks out !!
"YOKOHAMA, Japan (AP) - Mazda Motor Corp. has developed a new type of hybrid car that runs by switching between an electric motor and a hydrogen-powered engine, and then automatically shifts to gasoline when it runs out of hydrogen.
The experimental "concept car" Premacy Hydrogen RE Hybrid currently can travel only about 100 kilometers (62 miles) on hydrogen. That can be a problem because hydrogen fueling stations are still rare.
It was shown to reporters on Tuesday at a research center in Yokohama, west of Tokyo, ahead of the Tokyo auto show opening this month. There are no current plans for commercial sales."
What is the world coming to !!
The celica was a great car. It had a nearly 30 year production run in various forms.
http://tinyurl.com/bovgs
I had a feeling once the fire sale was over, the goods would accumulate on the lots.
Maybe, just maybe, the guy had experienced too many hybrid owners that would not get off of their soap boxes.
i was having a PRIVATE conversation, not very loud, and this dude butted in. Neither my f-in-law nor I were on any soapbox. In fact, we were discussing some of the downsides of various hybrid technologies
it's pretty much the same way here in Edmunds, though I'd expect it here since most people here are way more into horsepower than efficiency
I expect the "real world" to be more balanced
It is rude and unacceptable to butt in on any conversation.
He finally admitted that there is lots of cool technology in hybrids
and he liked my anecdote of my friend who bought a hybrid because he likes women who like hybrids. (and this friend is dating a VERY hot, enviro-chick, now, so I am not gonna win any argument with HIM about not buying a hybrid) :-)
Does anyone know why just a regular car couldn't do the same thing?
The ability to use the vehicle as a generator is one of GM's big selling points for their hybrid pickups. Even though the mileage gains are minimal, I bet a lot of people who use their trucks for work in remote locations will buy the GM hybrids because they won't have to buy, and cary around, a generator.
Here is the best quote in the story:
"People see $100 fill-ups and wonder what the hell they are doing," Healy said. "Even the rich who can afford it realize that maybe these vehicles don't do much more than a sensible vehicle could."
http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml
On the same page, he gives GM four UP stars, after giving Toyota four DOWN stars.
What a doofus.... :P
I think his point was that the HSD commercials really stretched the reality of what HSD can or does do. And I agree with him.
Have you seen the ad? Toyota did not develop the HSD because they care. They were persuaded by the Japanese government with MONEY so Japan could meet the challenge of the Kyoto treaty they were sucked into.
I have not seen the above mentioned ad. I saw the RX400h ad which is stupid. I would not expect an intelligent being to be duped. I will wait until I see the ad before I pass judgment on the autoextremist.
The HSD commerical is a "what if?" scenario that works in concept like this:
"What If every car on the planet had HSD?"
The reality of that statement is the fact that IF someone could wave a magic wand and EVERY CAR on the planet was poofed into a Prius and that if EVERY SUV on the planet was poofed into a Highlander Hybrid, the world would be a cleaner place, the air would be cleaner, and we would all benefit. There is no disputing that the result of that would be indicative of what the ad portrays.
That is ABSOLUTELY a fact. That's all the ad insinuates. Nothing silly or laughable about that.
Hmm, didn't see the Toyota ads touting their trucks' mileage (or lack thereof). Or mentioning their new large pickup truck plant in Texas. Is that going to make the air cleaner, lol?
Actually the GM full size PU trucks get better mileage than the Toyota full size trucks. Are you trying to say that Toyota is hoping the green glow over the Prius will make all their big polluters look better?
If you are referring to the large 3/4 ton plus trucks, you need to take up your complaint with the EPA. They make the rules, not GM