" $20K LX that gets 40MPG would be very popular (and probably make more money for Honda than the HAH) despite the old negative image diesels have. "
I think the above is a great idea. I think Honda will sell the European Diesel Accord in N. America. In other words expect a pricey diesel TSX with a lot of standard equipment.
Personally I like your No-Frills diesel Accord approach much better.
Actually the NA Accord is lighter than the TSX so the diesel would actually be faster. I think the larger vehicle with a diesel makes more sence. It goes along with the whole maximum efficiency thing. More space less fuel. The TSX is not much larger than a Corolla (or the new Civic), and they get 40+ mpg with their gas engines.
Look at these numbers: 340Nm (250 lb ft) torque at 2,000rpm If I remember right the V6 Accord has about 213?? lb ft...at a higher rpm 0-60 9.1 seconds; :shades: This is quite decend!!! top speed 130mph; wow... combined consumption 5.4 l/100km (52.3mpg);
Overall these specs sound a little optimistic, but at least it gives us an idea what we MIGHT be able to expect. However, I want to see it first...
TSX gets nowhere near 40MPH - moe like 31 Hwy auto and 29 hwy manual. Despite this, a turbo diesel 2.2L would be most welcome. Their tests in Europe showed it is an excellent engine.
The right conversion to the US mpg would be: 5.4 = 43.5 still VERY good!!! I made a table with the conversion I know it doesn't line up nicely but I just pasted it from Excel (was a pain to debug that formula):
I just read a test and they had a high-speed over 24 hours with 130mph AVEERAGEand after that they had a fuel efficiency test in which they drove on a highway at what they called moderate speeds (assuming something like 50mph and no traffic) and they made over 70 mpg (this is what I calculated from 3.07 l/100km) you know if you are really up to saving fuel and the conditions allow it, then I would assume 50+ mpg are doable...and they claim for the Euro Accord 52 mpg (calculated from 4.5 l/100km) highway and 32 mpg (also calculated from 7.1 l/100km) city...
Now compared with the BMW 320d with 163 HP and 235 ft lb of torque: 0-60 in 8.2 top speed of 140 combined MPG 41 I have droven a slowed down version of this one (called 318d, but the same engine with less HP) and I must say this is not a killer in speed like the 330/530d, but I wouldn't call it slow.
Given that, I would hope, Honda might give their engine a bump in displacement let's say from 2.2 liters to about 2.4...
The initial point of a diesel should be for milage gains and affortablity by the general public - putting it into a 27K TSX is probably not a good idea. Not only that, the Acura business model does not allow for this. Acura is the most "take this package or leave" kind of company there is - none of their vehicles have any drivetrain options.
One other thing to remember when talking about milage. Once you get past 40MPG+ the extra gains become less important. So the Prius crowd bragging about their 60 MPG (which only the EPA can get) is not that much further ahead than a diesel Accord (which on the highway can probably equal or beat a Prius). The big gains are achieved by folks trading in their 15MPG SUVs.
If I heard about an upcoming 2.2l Accord I would be among the first to place an order.
A deal breaker for me would be a significantly more pricey diesel TSX.
BMW and Honda appear to be introducing N. American diesels at about the same time 07/08. For the extra bucks I would prefer a RWD BMW 320d/330d over a FWD TSX any day.
"TSX gets nowhere near 40MPH - moe like 31 Hwy auto and 29 hwy manual. Despite this, a turbo diesel 2.2L would be most welcome. Their tests in Europe showed it is an excellent engine."
Actually I said the Corolla and Civic get 40 mpg. I was using them as an example to show that there are already plenty of cars that get great mileage that are approximately the size of the TSX. That is why I think the diesel would be more logical in the larger Accord.
First, I disagree that the TSX is compared to the Civic/ Corolla, it is a whole different class and not as a repacement for the Integra. I see it more as a Audi A4/ BMW 325...and the likes
I was just thinking...if Honda introduces their Diesel in North America, then they seem to want to start off with the Acura TSX. Nice and dandy... BUT!!! I agree that they won't make much money that way, which doesn't necessarily need to be their #1 goal (Acura is not that big volume either...compared to like Lexus or so...)
Could you guys imagine them putting that exact engine in a couple different cars, let's say the: - Accord (as a economic/ cheap family sedan around 20k) - Civic (that would be a blast to drive... :shades: MIGHT not fit in the engine bay) - CRV (this might sell very well...SUV and diesel, like the Jeep Liberty...) - Element (why not, right?) Basically anything that uses the 2.4l 4 cylinder... ??? I think out of all Japanese brands Honda is the best prepared for the Diesel future. Although Nissan might bring some good surprises, too.
Looks like Nissan (yeah I know this is about Honda...) could have some Diesels pretty fast over here, too. They (Renault) have a 3.0l V6 turbo diesel with 177 HP and 260 ft lb. The link is to show which car it is used in right now. Plus they also have a similar engine to the Honda one (2.2l 150 HP). I really can't wait to see how all this will play out. :shades:
So, does that mean it'll never come here... If Honda and BMW reportedly will bring Diesels to the US, what makes you think others don't have similar plans? What I wanted to say with this post is that the technology base already exists...a few adaptations and the market will move fast...
One Reason. Toyota's ultimate goal are hybrid versions of most of its vehicles. Diesel versions would conflict and cannibalize hybrid sales or vice-versa.
Why is Honda introducing hybrids? It appears they are not as ambitious as Toyota and their goal may be to have some hybrids and some diesels.
A diesel Accord would not cannibalize sales of a hybrid accord if the diesel was offered as an inexpensive no frills model(with a choice paying for extra options).
It seems like Toyota is puting most of its eggs in the hybrid basket for now and may get behind the curve when diesel demand goes through the roof.
Like I said before the most obvious thing for Honda is to offer a 20K LX Accord with the 2.2L CDTi engine. If they get the NOX emission issue solved it could show up as early as the 07 MY. Otherwise, it will show up when the Accord get the full make over for MY08.
Actually by the time the USDM Accord gets its full remake for MY08 it might inherit the better looks of its European cousin.
I am as excited as you are about an Accord diesel,
but what will be the premium price on diesel engines that pass the upcoming emission requirements. Remember in order to accomplish these requirements, diesel engines will cost more to build. In addition they will be more complex which could expose them to future maintenance problems.
Not only would a diesel car cost more ----in addititon the lower sulphur diesel would be more costly to produce. Add the two together(more expensive engine + more expensive fuel) and frugality sounds like a distant dream
Future diesels being more expensive and complex? Almost sounds like the way hybrids are today! But as diesels become more expensive/complex---mass produced hybrids will become cheaper and probably not as complex as they are today.
So what does this mean? The benefits of diesels will be fewer in the future while the benefits of hybrids will improve!
Scary thought, especially for myself who has a preference for diesels. My wife drives a 83 300d Benz. I want to provide her car with a future diesel mate: hopefulyl an 08 diesel Accord or diesel BMW 3 series! Assuming a diesel remains a frugal option?
A diesel is no more complex than a modern gas engine (any DI gas engine). Yes they are more expensive, but if the $750 premium charged on the E320 is any indication, the premium is low (can be recouped within a couple of years by the increased gas milage). In general I'd expect a $1K premium for similar diesel car over a gas powered car. The only problem I might see if manufacturers go the HAH route and put diesel in only the most expensive optioned cars.
Yes, the ULSD will be more expensive but not above premium grade.
The big gains for diesel will not be the person moving up from a gas powered I4 Accord, since that already gets over 30MPG, but from 15-20MPG Pilots and other bigger SUVs. A 50MPG car that emits less pollution than most cars today is hard to ignore, even by tree huggers.
The new upcoming fuel injectors/advanced computer controls will be far more sophisticated than in past and current diesels ! They will be far more costly to engineer. And with additional complexity there will be a increased likelihood of maintenance issues( although I cant say that with certainty until the new diesels are introduced)
Currently the fuel filter problems faced by N. Americans are a result of the high sulphur content of diesel. This issue will be solve with the sulphur lite diesel fuels that are to be introduced in a few years.
I am no engineer but these are some of the issues I picked up on while reading about diesels. Having said that, I hope my diesel fears are proved wrong because I want my new car to be as durable as my wife's 83 Benz 300D.
It sounds like you are trying to say that Diesels are not being mass produced right now. I am sure you didn't mean it that way... There is obviously a huge production already all over the world. Way more than hybrids!!! Possibly way more than hybrids will ever be (honestly I am not that sure hybrids are going to have THAT big of an impact but that is just IMHO). You just make is sound like Diesel is a new technology, which it is NOT!!! I don't know how the future is going to play out.
Regarding the price premium of Diesel fuel, compared with the highest octance gas fuel, it is not a premium where I live. Having said that, most cars that Diesel engines are offered or will be offered in the future (Jetta is an exception) are more in the luxury category (MB 320, BMW 330d, Acura TSX), where you should use premium fuel anyways. That being said, it really depends on your dirving characteristics. If you want a compact car and drive mostly in-town and not very dynamic, then an hybrid is the better choice. If you drive a lot on the highway and long distances and you like lots of torque, then a Diesel is the better choice. I don't think both technologies are mutually exclusive. Both have their place.
I am well aware that the majority of cars sold in Europe are diesel.
The point I am saying has nothing to with diesels not being mass produced. WHat I am saying is that the emission requirements for North America will be far stricter than in Europe.
In order to pass these requirements the engines in North America will have to be designed differently than in Europe. And these engines will be more expensive than in Europe. In addition they are likely to be more complex.( I feel I have been repeating myself these past few posts)
The only thing Honda needs to do to the current 2.2L CDTi being used in Europe is lower the NOx emissions and it's ready to go in the US. There's really little to engineer - they just have to decide what kind of catalyst to use to get rid of more NOx. The engine is done. All SULEV cars after 2006 will have emission systems designed to last at least 120K miles.
The diff in Germany between the Accord Executive (Acura TSX) gas and diesel is less than $300. Granted you pay a 50HP penalty with the diesel (140 vs 190), but gain 50% in torque and milage and cut emissions in half - that's right, the diesel engine has about 1/2 the emissions (CO2) of the already clean gas engine.
If forum members are still unconviced in what I am saying then refer to all announcements about diesels that will be introduced after new emission regulations.
If you look at the above site both Honda and BMW announced that they may introduce diesels based on whether they can engineer their engines to pass the new regulations. As of today the technology does not exist.
Also note the new upcoming Jetta TDI will have the old 1.9 Diesel engine. It would bepointless to have a new diesel engine when it does not pass the emisssions qualifications in 06/07. Like BMW and Honda, VW is working towards developing new diesel engines for North America.
Interesting article. I read all 5 pages and missed any reference to technology not existing to pass 2007 regulations. I know that both MB & VW have PM filters that reduce the NoX to acceptable levels for the new regulations. The sticking point is they may have to be cleaned before 150k miles, and the EPA may not accept that. Many environmentalists will not be happy until we are all walking or riding a bicycle. So no matter how clean the car burns someone will complain that it is not enough.
I don't think that anyone here disagrees with you on the point that they will have to improve the emisions in order for them to be sold all over North America. Fact is that current technology DOES NOT meet the current and possible future standards.
But, and this is the point that you don't seem to realize : What are they going to do once they are ready to meet the emision standards? Do you really think that they will only offer those engines in North America? Do you really think that Europe won't increase their emision standards?
On a side-note, does anyone know if the emision standards are different for Diesel and Gas?
Because as far as I know, in Europe they have different standards for Diesel and Gas, which is the main reason why Diesel spread so fast. The other issue is that Diesels (the cars not the fuel) are taxed more than Gas. Their governments believe that lower fuel consumption is better, at least in the short term, than having emision standards that nobody fullfills. Europe increases their stadards about every 2-3 years (I really don't know about the US). And basically over the lifetime of a car you tend to pay more and more tax because the emision that your car fulfills is getting older and older. So this really helps attract consumers to buy the newest and cleanest technoogy available because if you drive an old and "dirty" car you pay a heavy tax each year.
Doesn't this whole issure seem more like a protectionist move because none of the Big Three really has competitive Diesel technology. Not taking into consideration MB, none of the Diesel engines are something new, really. TDI was VW, Common Rail was Alfa and MB, Registercharging was BMW...
Again, whining about high gas prices and not allowing technology into the market sounds a little contradictive. The emision issue doesn't convince me fully...not with the track record the US has on the enviroment. Remember Kyoto???
Please note the following paragraphs from the Honda announcement:
We know that there are a lot of potential customers in the U.S for diesel models. However, the emission standard is so high and currently we don't have technologies to meet it. We will try hard and hopefully we can develop technologies which can meet the regulation in the near future.”
I agree! Government intervention is not going to be the primary force behind gas conserving cars. It is the market price of an oil barrel and not Government policy that is triggering our interest for diesels and hybrids. nyway I realize this forum is not about our politcal views so let me just say two reasons I may not buy a Honda Accord diesel:
1) No manual transmission. Will not drive a car unless it has a stick! 2) As mentioned by others in prior posts--- a diesel version that is loaded with luxuries and selling at a hefty premium price(sort of like the Toyota hybrids). I like choosing my own options than having a car company determine what is suitable for me.
I like choosing the color also. I am sure that the Hybrid automakers are not showing any profit on the base units. So they add a $500 NAV and charge $2000 for it. There is half of their loss on the hybrid. I think that is why the big push with the RX400h. It is so high priced they have to be making money. Right now they are selling for about $10k over a comparably equipped RX330. Same for the Accord Hybrid over the regular V6 EX $5K to $8k premium. If they do that with the diesel version it will be a hard sell for them. People buy diesels for the fuel economy and the added torque that makes driving more pleasurable. If it is not going to pay for itself, they can forget it...
The 2.2L CDTi that Honda developed for Europe probably took into account the worst case scenario for European emission standards, Euro4, which will come into affect around 06. Those limits are pretty close in most areas to the 06 rules for the US but for the NOx emissions. Both gas and diesel engines must meet the same new SULEV emission standards that the tree hugging wackos in CA devised. If the technology did not exist to get to those standards on the gas side car sales would come to a grinding halt. Anything is possible - it's just a matter of cost. It might be slightly more difficult on the diesel side - but it's just a matter of how (urea injection system on the MB or an expensive catalyst for Honda).
Did you know that the 47 state gas PZEV version of the Accord already has a better EPA emission score than the Prius in those states? As far as I know there is virtually no cost difference between a regular gas Accord and a PZEV Accord yet the emission diff are significant.
The engineering and amount of emissions is no longer the issue - the fact is that like has been mentioned before the CA tree huggers just don't want any internal combustion engine vehicle on the roads - period (something Al Gore wanted).
As I mentioned, the packaging of the diesel could be a problem. I'm with you that I'd want an MT equiped sedan with options of my choosing. I have a feeling that unlike the current hybrid packaging, we are more likely to get our way. One of the things that drives up the cost of the hybrid it that all of them seem to need an interface screen to dazzle the driver with all of the info about what the system is doing - that won't be the case with a diesel. Honda is the only manufacturer that even has an MT equiped hybrid - so that's a good sign that they believe in still providing an MT. Since the point of the diesel will be fuel milage gains - then the probability of an MT are good.
I still predict an 08 Accord (after the redesign) with the 2.2 CTDi engine as an option.
Taxes on diesel vary by country but in general diesel enjoys a tax ADVANTAGE over gas. Like the US, emission standards will be uniform regardless of fuel.
There's a lot collaboration between the EPA and European regulators, so the emission limits are being worked on both sides of the Atlantic and are very similar.
The standards are not changed every 2-3 years and have currently reached the same low levels as the SULEV in the US below which only pure electrics can exist. Yes, cars are taxed in some countries on their emissions (as they are on engine size and other factors) but the tax is not such a heavy burden that it makes people go out and buy new cars.
The CA tree huggers will have to find some other way to get cars off the road cause the emissions war they've been waging has come to an end.
Wall Street fears that the good times will end in 2007, when new EPA emissions standards will mean that new trucks must have engines costing an estimated $5,000 more than existing ones. Fleet owners like Marten have been eagerly ordering trucks for delivery this year and in 2006. That means 2007 could be a tough year for the industry, with deliveries perhaps down 30% or more from 2006 levels.
Above is a paragraph in this week's Barrons(May 22-May29 edition) regarding the truck firm Paccar. If truck engines geared to new EPA emissions will cost an extra 5k, I can assure you the cost impact on car/SUV diesels will not be minor(though it certainly will not be 5k).
It is uncertain what the cost impact will be, BUT what is certain is that the 07 EPA standards will have an impact on the manufacturing costs of diesel engines.
We went to the beach for sunset time last night. Many of the above spend their lives there. We followed an old Civic that was plastered with environmental slogans (save the Redwoods etc). Every time they accelerated from a stop they spewed black smoke. We are being controlled by people of that level of ignorance in our CA legislature. There needs to be a tempering of the regulations. I am convinced many people would buy smaller PU trucks with efficient diesel engines if they were available. They are not, so they buy an F350 Crew Cab diesel. All legal, yet I cannot buy a very clean burning diesel car in the same location. STUPID, is the best word to describe CA Air resources board.
I fuel my 2004 Accord in northern NJ (much lower fuel taxes than on the NY side of the border). The price of regular at the el-cheapo no-name station that I've used for years has come down to $1.959 from $2.059 in the past week.
I notice that Diesel fuel at the same station is now at $2.259 per gallon.
I would have to drive an awful lot of miles over the life of a car to justify paying that higher cost per gallon for fuel and the higher cost for a Diesel engine, even if it got somewhat better mileage.
You know that here you described in essence the difference between a German carmaker and a Japanese or American carmaker. Look at the list of options you can have on a BMW versus let's say an Acura. Do you know how many different possible configurations of BMW cars there are out of the factory? I don't give away a secret if I tell you that number is 10^32...that is ten to the power of thirty two!!! Compare that to how many different Acuras there are (given they have less models)...I would make an educated guess and say 1000 or so... It doesn't really matter because what I am trying to say is that you will never get a whole lot of options from Honda. Honda will give you as little options as necessary. If it was up to them, they would give you one single model of each car. Think about it: limiting the options will reduce the price. That is the main reason why German cars are that expensive (plus also the extremly high cost of labor in Germany). Giving you more options will ultimately result in a higher price in general. Each option that will be added has to cost more You can't negotiate really low prices with your suppliers because you don't know the exact configuration of each car. Everything is flexible. This system works well in Germany because the customer there orders a new car from the factory and is willing to wait for it a couple of weeks. Unless there is a backorder, you won't have to wait that long...
Does this work in the US? NO, because most people want to drive their car off the lot the same day. And this favors more a Japanese system. Unless you take a barebone car, you don't gain in price from chosing you own options.
Are we going to see an Accord DX value package? maybe! But I wouldn't count on that. Just as they are offering the Hybrid only with top-of-the-line options, they will have to offer the Accord Diesel the same way, just to make up for the development costs. Only on the most expensive (or near) can you amortize the costs as fast as possible.
All other being equal, Diesel engines are more durable. I don't think that anything they will have to do to them in order to meet the emision requirements will reduce the lifespan of the engine. Having said that, there might be some filters etc. that will need replacement after some time. If Honda and co. will want to avoid any bad publicity, they will give that maintenance away for free. This seems like a good way to make customers loyal. HONDA ARE YOU LISTENING!!!
Having mentioned all my pessimistic thoughts about the cost of future diesel engines and increased diesel fuel costs---I still am enthusiastic about buying a diesel!
Why?
Because future affordable diesels will have to make marketing sense! Otherwise why would such suave marketeers like Honda and BMW be so eager about introducing diesels in N. America. Why is VW and Mercedes Benz so eager about expanding their diesel fleet in N. America?
I read that VW intends to sell far more diesels in Canada in the future. VW would never make such an announcement if they knew that the costs of diesel motors would increase substantially in Canada. No way would that happen, especially with Canadians being so frugal and cautious about spending on cars( especially when compared to Americans).
So I still have faith in diesels and look forward to seeing what interesting vehicles will be available in the not too distant future.
I read that VW intends to sell far more diesels in Canada in the future.
The MSRP spread on a VW Passat TDI is only $205 more than the 4 cylinder and less than the V6. I test drove the 1.8T before buying the TDI. No comparison out on the highway. I would like to try the V6 though it has about 20% less torque than the TDI and sells for almost $2000 more than the diesel. I think these car companies can make the diesel for about the same money as the Gas versions. Honda is going full bore into Europe with a new diesel engine factory. I think they want a piece of that pie. We may even get some of the crumbs.
The reason that the truck emissions will cost that much is because they've been getting away with doing virtually nothing. The limits on truck today are much higher than regular cars - guess what - in the future they'll have to meet the same standards as cars. Then of course their prices will go up more than cars.
So if the current downturn on gaz guzzlers looks bad now, this extra impact will look like doomsday.
The other thing to consider is that you can't take the extra cost of getting some diesel engine to meet new emissions laws in a vacuum - it will cost some extra to get gas engines to meet that same standard also. The main point is that while a bit more expensive, the cost of a diesel engine will be within $1K of a similar gas engine. The main thing that will drive their sales is the packaging (will they put it in only the high end models) and cost diff between gas and diesel. On the packaging issue I think Honda has learned its lesson and won't package a diesel Accord like the HAH. Unfortunately, none of the car makers can do anything about the cost diff between gas and diesel (other than lobby the gov't).
we can be thankful that the hype for diesels is not as intense as it is for hybrids.
Hybrid buyers as you know are not buying their cars based on financial reasons---there is no way the premium on a hybrid is justifiable based on $$$ saved in the gas pumps. Toyota and Honda are exploiting this situation quite well.
Thankfully diesel manufacturers wont have that advantage. They will have to price their cars in a way that makes financial sense for buyers. As we keep on reading in these forums--there is a stigma about diesels! I am grateful for such a stigma since that is the key reason why VW TDsI are priced so reasonably.
Let us just pray that no Hollywood celebrity will buy a new diesel Accord 2.2. In that case we can forget about getting reasonably priced diesels.
I drive a VW Passat TDI because VW has more dealers in the US than MB or BMW. When I travel I want to be able to find a dealer when I need one.
We still have our Ford Power Stroke, but it is used to pull our 5th wheel only. The cost of fuel has limited the use of the 5th wheel for the last year.
MB's Jeep card is more of a work vehicle. For those who like to go off road and pull a boat or pop-up this will be great.
I don't look for any of the others to do much until the EPA makes their final report and they might change their mind 100 times yet.
Some dealers tried exploiting the VW TDI's. I think that people that buy Diesel cars are more pragmatic. They count the cost and go with the what will save them money, not what is cool at the time. I would not have bought the Passat if I did not find one under Invoice. My brother-in-law wanted a Dodge Cummins in the worst way. He only uses it to haul his car to Bonneville once a year. He ended up with the new Dodge Ram Hemi for $7k less. In the end he could not justify the extra cost. The other side of the coin is longevity. People bought MB over the years as much for the long term reliability as they did the MB luxury. Honda diesel Accords will sell well unless they are so loaded down with emissions crap that they cannot perform as well as the competition. The last item and no small one is the new CARB regulations for 2007 are not set in concrete. There is a lawsuit between the state and the Feds over jurisdiction. CARB has over the years gone around the EPA on regulations. That has caused a lot of problems for the manufacturers trying to build a standard. The next couple years will be interesting. According to a friend that owns a Smog Test station here in San Diego, there is no test available for the diesel cars. Some states have a very basic opacity test that measures light through your exhaust smoke on big diesel vehicles. I can tell you that the exhaust from my new VW TDI cannot be seen or smelled. Gas vehicles have more odor than a modern diesel using BP/ARCO ULSD.
just pray that no Hollywood celebrity will buy a new diesel Accord 2.2.
Willie Nelson, Woody Harrelson & Darrel Hannah among others are actively pushing Biodiesel. To use it you have to have a diesel vehicle. No current hybrids will run on the very earth friendly fuel. Any manufacturer that comes out with a diesel that is warrantied for B100 will be a hit with this segment of Hollywood.
I haven't operated a Honda Accord since I sold (bought new 1982) one with app 95,000 miles. I do operate side by side a 2004 Honda Civic(35-40 mpg) and 2003 VW Jetta TDI (44-62 mpg) So for the sake of comparison, using your recent prices: Normal commute of 38 mpg vs 48 mpg shows .0515789 vs .0470833 cents per mile.
Testing a diesel after 2006 should be the same as a gas engine as the standards will be the same for both. I think emissions limit numbers are more or less set, it's just a matter of making the EPA ones agree with the CARB ones - on the EPA site the tables seem to converge on SULEV numbers. It will be intereseting to see what happens - since June 1 is the start of ULSD availability nation wide seems to me that MY 07 diesel should be possible. BTW, CARB estimates that refiners will charge 2-4 cents more/gal for ULSD - insignificant in fuel of over $2/gal.
But Biodiesel runs better, and cleaner in your engine than Diesel does. The difficulty of it is of course finding a place with a good supply, but we live in Portland OR and have a great place for it here. It also blends perfectly with Diesel if you need to. Only practical difference is that in a climate with freezing temperatures you must put an additive in it or blend a minimum of 15% petrodiesel.
IF you have an older diesel without rubber or butyl lines you cannot use biodiesel without changing the lines as it is a very powerful solvent and will eat them away. Good side is if your lines are safe (all newer vehicles) it will clean your engine out very well.
Myself I love my gmc truck, and yes its a huge guzzler. I really want a diesel for my wife, but she will only drive wagons. I see there is the Passat, but boy I could only dream of an accord wagon in diesel. Too much to dream for maybe. Anyways for me emissions are not the concern, as Biodiesel beats the pants off of a hybrid in terms of emissions... but where to get a highquality, modest priced wagon.
Anyways, I see a lot of you talking not just about mileage, but emissions. If you REALLY want CLEAN emissions with equivelent mileage hybrid is not the way to go, rather biodiesel is. Runs just like diesel in a diesel engine with equivelent/slightly superior power, mixes with it, but is far far cleaner - exhaust smells like wesson oil, that sort of popcorn/frenchfry smell too if its been made from fast-food-chain vegetable oil. It's around $3 a gallon right now so it is only as cost effective when compared to gasoline, not petro-diesel. But as far as emissions go compared to petro-diesel, there is no comparison.
VWA, at my last read has come out SELECTIVELY in favor of biodiesel. I think at their pronouncement there were no effective standards for biodiesel: such as for #2 diesel. I am SWAGGING they had some warranty issues with some folks using certain " non standardized " bio diesel fuel.
As you know USLD is available NOW: but at very selective outlets ( at a premium price, as is biodiesel). In theory, the low sulfur USLD fuel will make it's commoditized debut in 2006.
The concepts of "distill your own" grow your own, domestic farm growth of alternative fuels might not be for EVERYBODY or even be the so called "MAGIC BULLET that the environmental wackos and regulators want, but for whatever this segment grows to: in percentage terms will be that much less% unleaded gasoline we have to import. It is indeed ironic that the ones calling for the decrease import of foreign oils are some of the MAJOR impediments to issues like biodiesel and soybean based (homegrown) alternatives.
Comments
I think the above is a great idea. I think Honda will sell the European Diesel Accord in N. America. In other words expect a pricey diesel TSX with a lot of standard equipment.
Personally I like your No-Frills diesel Accord approach much better.
http://irishcar.com/hondadieselbb.htm
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/031128/4/1t7p8.html
http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92522
http://www.fleetnewsnet.co.uk/news/view_article.asp?art_ID=30
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=20188
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=21033
http://www.rte.ie/motors/2004/0227/honda.html
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=549&ArticleID=792332
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/grouptests/car/1112/honda_accord_22_ictdi_executive.html
340Nm (250 lb ft) torque at 2,000rpm
If I remember right the V6 Accord has about 213?? lb ft...at a higher rpm
0-60 9.1 seconds; :shades:
This is quite decend!!!
top speed 130mph;
wow...
combined consumption 5.4 l/100km (52.3mpg);
Overall these specs sound a little optimistic, but at least it gives us an idea what we MIGHT be able to expect. However, I want to see it first...
Why?
Because they use the imperial version of mileage. An imperial mile is less than a US mile. What the exact conversion is, I dont know?
l/100km 4 4.5 5 5.5 6 6.5 7
mpg 58.80 52.26 47.04 42.76 39.20 36.18 33.60
l/100km 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11
mpg 29.40 27.67 26.13 24.76 23.52 22.40 21.38
l/100km 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
mpg 19.60 18.09 16.80 15.68 14.70 13.83 13.07
l/100km 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
mpg 12.38 11.76 11.20 10.69 10.23 9.80 9.41
I just read a test and they had a high-speed over 24 hours with 130mph AVEERAGEand after that they had a fuel efficiency test in which they drove on a highway at what they called moderate speeds (assuming something like 50mph and no traffic) and they made over 70 mpg (this is what I calculated from 3.07 l/100km) you know if you are really up to saving fuel and the conditions allow it, then I would assume 50+ mpg are doable...and they claim for the Euro Accord 52 mpg (calculated from 4.5 l/100km) highway and 32 mpg (also calculated from 7.1 l/100km) city...
Now compared with the BMW 320d with 163 HP and 235 ft lb of torque:
0-60 in 8.2
top speed of 140
combined MPG 41
I have droven a slowed down version of this one (called 318d, but the same engine with less HP) and I must say this is not a killer in speed like the 330/530d, but I wouldn't call it slow.
Given that, I would hope, Honda might give their engine a bump in displacement let's say from 2.2 liters to about 2.4...
One other thing to remember when talking about milage. Once you get past 40MPG+ the extra gains become less important. So the Prius crowd bragging about their 60 MPG (which only the EPA can get) is not that much further ahead than a diesel Accord (which on the highway can probably equal or beat a Prius). The big gains are achieved by folks trading in their 15MPG SUVs.
A deal breaker for me would be a significantly more pricey diesel TSX.
BMW and Honda appear to be introducing N. American diesels at about the same time 07/08. For the extra bucks I would prefer a RWD BMW 320d/330d over a FWD TSX any day.
Actually I said the Corolla and Civic get 40 mpg. I was using them as an example to show that there are already plenty of cars that get great mileage that are approximately the size of the TSX. That is why I think the diesel would be more logical in the larger Accord.
I was just thinking...if Honda introduces their Diesel in North America, then they seem to want to start off with the Acura TSX. Nice and dandy...
BUT!!! I agree that they won't make much money that way, which doesn't necessarily need to be their #1 goal (Acura is not that big volume either...compared to like Lexus or so...)
Could you guys imagine them putting that exact engine in a couple different cars, let's say the:
- Accord (as a economic/ cheap family sedan around 20k)
- Civic (that would be a blast to drive... :shades: MIGHT not fit in the engine bay)
- CRV (this might sell very well...SUV and diesel, like the Jeep Liberty...)
- Element (why not, right?)
Basically anything that uses the 2.4l 4 cylinder...
???
I think out of all Japanese brands Honda is the best prepared for the Diesel future. Although Nissan might bring some good surprises, too.
http://tdiclub.com/misc/conversions.html
The Honda i_ctdi diesel is available in the CR-V:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/driving-impressions-2005/H/honda-cr-v-diesel/cr-v-- diesel.html
http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2400214&fSectionId=1566&fSetId=381
This link shows some of the projects in Diesel technology.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/diesel/
Looks like Nissan (yeah I know this is about Honda...) could have some Diesels pretty fast over here, too. They (Renault) have a 3.0l V6 turbo diesel with 177 HP and 260 ft lb. The link is to show which car it is used in right now. Plus they also have a similar engine to the Honda one (2.2l 150 HP). I really can't wait to see how all this will play out. :shades:
renault diesel review
Alright hold on:
Check this out!!!
new toyota diesel
2.2l
175 HP
295!!! ft lb WOW!!! :surprise:
35 MPG combined...thought it would be more...
If Honda and BMW reportedly will bring Diesels to the US, what makes you think others don't have similar plans? What I wanted to say with this post is that the technology base already exists...a few adaptations and the market will move fast...
One Reason. Toyota's ultimate goal are hybrid versions of most of its vehicles. Diesel versions would conflict and cannibalize hybrid sales or vice-versa.
Why is Honda introducing hybrids? It appears they are not as ambitious as Toyota and their goal may be to have some hybrids and some diesels.
A diesel Accord would not cannibalize sales of a hybrid accord if the diesel was offered as an inexpensive no frills model(with a choice paying for extra options).
Like I said before the most obvious thing for Honda is to offer a 20K LX Accord with the 2.2L CDTi engine. If they get the NOX emission issue solved it could show up as early as the 07 MY. Otherwise, it will show up when the Accord get the full make over for MY08.
Actually by the time the USDM Accord gets its full remake for MY08 it might inherit the better looks of its European cousin.
but what will be the premium price on diesel engines that pass the upcoming emission requirements. Remember in order to accomplish these requirements, diesel engines will cost more to build. In addition they will be more complex which could expose them to future maintenance problems.
Not only would a diesel car cost more ----in addititon the lower sulphur diesel would be more costly to produce. Add the two together(more expensive engine + more expensive fuel) and frugality sounds like a distant dream
Future diesels being more expensive and complex? Almost sounds like the way hybrids are today! But as diesels become more expensive/complex---mass produced hybrids will become cheaper and probably not as complex as they are today.
So what does this mean? The benefits of diesels will be fewer in the future while the benefits of hybrids will improve!
Scary thought, especially for myself who has a preference for diesels. My wife drives a 83 300d Benz. I want to provide her car with a future diesel mate: hopefulyl an 08 diesel Accord or diesel BMW 3 series! Assuming a diesel remains a frugal option?
Yes, the ULSD will be more expensive but not above premium grade.
The big gains for diesel will not be the person moving up from a gas powered I4 Accord, since that already gets over 30MPG, but from 15-20MPG Pilots and other bigger SUVs. A 50MPG car that emits less pollution than most cars today is hard to ignore, even by tree huggers.
Currently the fuel filter problems faced by N. Americans are a result of the high sulphur content of diesel. This issue will be solve with the sulphur lite diesel fuels that are to be introduced in a few years.
I am no engineer but these are some of the issues I picked up on while reading about diesels. Having said that, I hope my diesel fears are proved wrong because I want my new car to be as durable as my wife's 83 Benz 300D.
Regarding the price premium of Diesel fuel, compared with the highest octance gas fuel, it is not a premium where I live. Having said that, most cars that Diesel engines are offered or will be offered in the future (Jetta is an exception) are more in the luxury category (MB 320, BMW 330d, Acura TSX), where you should use premium fuel anyways. That being said, it really depends on your dirving characteristics. If you want a compact car and drive mostly in-town and not very dynamic, then an hybrid is the better choice. If you drive a lot on the highway and long distances and you like lots of torque, then a Diesel is the better choice. I don't think both technologies are mutually exclusive. Both have their place.
The point I am saying has nothing to with diesels not being mass produced. WHat I am saying is that the emission requirements for North America will be far stricter than in Europe.
In order to pass these requirements the engines in North America will have to be designed differently than in Europe. And these engines will be more expensive than in Europe. In addition they are likely to be more complex.( I feel I have been repeating myself these past few posts)
The diff in Germany between the Accord Executive (Acura TSX) gas and diesel is less than $300. Granted you pay a 50HP penalty with the diesel (140 vs 190), but gain 50% in torque and milage and cut emissions in half - that's right, the diesel engine has about 1/2 the emissions (CO2) of the already clean gas engine.
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=39381&pg=1
If you look at the above site both Honda and BMW announced that they may introduce diesels based on whether they can engineer their engines to pass the new regulations. As of today the technology does not exist.
Also note the new upcoming Jetta TDI will have the old 1.9 Diesel engine. It would bepointless to have a new diesel engine when it does not pass the emisssions qualifications in 06/07. Like BMW and Honda, VW is working towards developing new diesel engines for North America.
But, and this is the point that you don't seem to realize
What are they going to do once they are ready to meet the emision standards?
Do you really think that they will only offer those engines in North America?
Do you really think that Europe won't increase their emision standards?
On a side-note, does anyone know if the emision standards are different for Diesel and Gas?
Because as far as I know, in Europe they have different standards for Diesel and Gas, which is the main reason why Diesel spread so fast. The other issue is that Diesels (the cars not the fuel) are taxed more than Gas. Their governments believe that lower fuel consumption is better, at least in the short term, than having emision standards that nobody fullfills. Europe increases their stadards about every 2-3 years (I really don't know about the US). And basically over the lifetime of a car you tend to pay more and more tax because the emision that your car fulfills is getting older and older. So this really helps attract consumers to buy the newest and cleanest technoogy available because if you drive an old and "dirty" car you pay a heavy tax each year.
Doesn't this whole issure seem more like a protectionist move because none of the Big Three really has competitive Diesel technology. Not taking into consideration MB, none of the Diesel engines are something new, really. TDI was VW, Common Rail was Alfa and MB, Registercharging was BMW...
Again, whining about high gas prices and not allowing technology into the market sounds a little contradictive. The emision issue doesn't convince me fully...not with the track record the US has on the enviroment. Remember Kyoto???
The specifics are on the following link:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102192
Please note the following paragraphs from the Honda announcement:
We know that there are a lot of potential customers in the U.S for diesel models. However, the emission standard is so high and currently we don't have technologies to meet it. We will try hard and hopefully we can develop technologies which can meet the regulation in the near future.”
nyway I realize this forum is not about our politcal views so let me just say two reasons I may not buy a Honda Accord diesel:
1) No manual transmission. Will not drive a car unless it has a stick!
2) As mentioned by others in prior posts--- a diesel version that is loaded with luxuries and selling at a hefty premium price(sort of like the Toyota hybrids). I like choosing my own options than having a car company determine what is suitable for me.
I like choosing the color also. I am sure that the Hybrid automakers are not showing any profit on the base units. So they add a $500 NAV and charge $2000 for it. There is half of their loss on the hybrid. I think that is why the big push with the RX400h. It is so high priced they have to be making money. Right now they are selling for about $10k over a comparably equipped RX330. Same for the Accord Hybrid over the regular V6 EX $5K to $8k premium. If they do that with the diesel version it will be a hard sell for them. People buy diesels for the fuel economy and the added torque that makes driving more pleasurable. If it is not going to pay for itself, they can forget it...
Did you know that the 47 state gas PZEV version of the Accord already has a better EPA emission score than the Prius in those states? As far as I know there is virtually no cost difference between a regular gas Accord and a PZEV Accord yet the emission diff are significant.
The engineering and amount of emissions is no longer the issue - the fact is that like has been mentioned before the CA tree huggers just don't want any internal combustion engine vehicle on the roads - period (something Al Gore wanted).
I have a feeling that unlike the current hybrid packaging, we are more likely to get our way. One of the things that drives up the cost of the hybrid it that all of them seem to need an interface screen to dazzle the driver with all of the info about what the system is doing - that won't be the case with a diesel. Honda is the only manufacturer that even has an MT equiped hybrid - so that's a good sign that they believe in still providing an MT. Since the point of the diesel will be fuel milage gains - then the probability of an MT are good.
I still predict an 08 Accord (after the redesign) with the 2.2 CTDi engine as an option.
There's a lot collaboration between the EPA and European regulators, so the emission limits are being worked on both sides of the Atlantic and are very similar.
The standards are not changed every 2-3 years and have currently reached the same low levels as the SULEV in the US below which only pure electrics can exist. Yes, cars are taxed in some countries on their emissions (as they are on engine size and other factors) but the tax is not such a heavy burden that it makes people go out and buy new cars.
The CA tree huggers will have to find some other way to get cars off the road cause the emissions war they've been waging has come to an end.
Above is a paragraph in this week's Barrons(May 22-May29 edition) regarding the truck firm Paccar.
If truck engines geared to new EPA emissions will cost an extra 5k, I can assure you the cost impact on car/SUV diesels will not be minor(though it certainly will not be 5k).
It is uncertain what the cost impact will be, BUT what is certain is that the 07 EPA standards will have an impact on the manufacturing costs of diesel engines.
We went to the beach for sunset time last night. Many of the above spend their lives there. We followed an old Civic that was plastered with environmental slogans (save the Redwoods etc). Every time they accelerated from a stop they spewed black smoke. We are being controlled by people of that level of ignorance in our CA legislature. There needs to be a tempering of the regulations. I am convinced many people would buy smaller PU trucks with efficient diesel engines if they were available. They are not, so they buy an F350 Crew Cab diesel. All legal, yet I cannot buy a very clean burning diesel car in the same location. STUPID, is the best word to describe CA Air resources board.
I notice that Diesel fuel at the same station is now at $2.259 per gallon.
I would have to drive an awful lot of miles over the life of a car to justify paying that higher cost per gallon for fuel and the higher cost for a Diesel engine, even if it got somewhat better mileage.
Do you know how many different possible configurations of BMW cars there are out of the factory? I don't give away a secret if I tell you that number is 10^32...that is ten to the power of thirty two!!! Compare that to how many different Acuras there are (given they have less models)...I would make an educated guess and say 1000 or so...
It doesn't really matter because what I am trying to say is that you will never get a whole lot of options from Honda. Honda will give you as little options as necessary. If it was up to them, they would give you one single model of each car. Think about it: limiting the options will reduce the price. That is the main reason why German cars are that expensive (plus also the extremly high cost of labor in Germany).
Giving you more options will ultimately result in a higher price in general. Each option that will be added has to cost more You can't negotiate really low prices with your suppliers because you don't know the exact configuration of each car. Everything is flexible. This system works well in Germany because the customer there orders a new car from the factory and is willing to wait for it a couple of weeks. Unless there is a backorder, you won't have to wait that long...
Does this work in the US? NO, because most people want to drive their car off the lot the same day. And this favors more a Japanese system. Unless you take a barebone car, you don't gain in price from chosing you own options.
Are we going to see an Accord DX value package? maybe! But I wouldn't count on that. Just as they are offering the Hybrid only with top-of-the-line options, they will have to offer the Accord Diesel the same way, just to make up for the development costs. Only on the most expensive (or near) can you amortize the costs as fast as possible.
..operating a fuel efficient little diesel pickup over the last 20+ years has become habit.........
...I'd buy a new one in a heartbeat......
hang in there...ez
Why?
Because future affordable diesels will have to make marketing sense! Otherwise why would such suave marketeers like Honda and BMW be so eager about introducing diesels in N. America. Why is VW and Mercedes Benz so eager about expanding their diesel fleet in N. America?
I read that VW intends to sell far more diesels in Canada in the future. VW would never make such an announcement if they knew that the costs of diesel motors would increase substantially in Canada. No way would that happen, especially with Canadians being so frugal and cautious about spending on cars( especially when compared to Americans).
So I still have faith in diesels and look forward to seeing what interesting vehicles will be available in the not too distant future.
The MSRP spread on a VW Passat TDI is only $205 more than the 4 cylinder and less than the V6. I test drove the 1.8T before buying the TDI. No comparison out on the highway. I would like to try the V6 though it has about 20% less torque than the TDI and sells for almost $2000 more than the diesel. I think these car companies can make the diesel for about the same money as the Gas versions. Honda is going full bore into Europe with a new diesel engine factory. I think they want a piece of that pie. We may even get some of the crumbs.
So if the current downturn on gaz guzzlers looks bad now, this extra impact will look like doomsday.
The other thing to consider is that you can't take the extra cost of getting some diesel engine to meet new emissions laws in a vacuum - it will cost some extra to get gas engines to meet that same standard also. The main point is that while a bit more expensive, the cost of a diesel engine will be within $1K of a similar gas engine. The main thing that will drive their sales is the packaging (will they put it in only the high end models) and cost diff between gas and diesel.
On the packaging issue I think Honda has learned its lesson and won't package a diesel Accord like the HAH. Unfortunately, none of the car makers can do anything about the cost diff between gas and diesel (other than lobby the gov't).
we can be thankful that the hype for diesels is not as intense as it is for hybrids.
Hybrid buyers as you know are not buying their cars based on financial reasons---there is no way the premium on a hybrid is justifiable based on $$$ saved in the gas pumps. Toyota and Honda are exploiting this situation quite well.
Thankfully diesel manufacturers wont have that advantage. They will have to price their cars in a way that makes financial sense for buyers. As we keep on reading in these forums--there is a stigma about diesels! I am grateful for such a stigma since that is the key reason why VW TDsI are priced so reasonably.
Let us just pray that no Hollywood celebrity will buy a new diesel Accord 2.2. In that case we can forget about getting reasonably priced diesels.
We still have our Ford Power Stroke, but it is used to pull our 5th wheel only. The cost of fuel has limited the use of the 5th wheel for the last year.
MB's Jeep card is more of a work vehicle. For those who like to go off road and pull a boat or pop-up this will be great.
I don't look for any of the others to do much until the EPA makes their final report and they might change their mind 100 times yet.
Some dealers tried exploiting the VW TDI's. I think that people that buy Diesel cars are more pragmatic. They count the cost and go with the what will save them money, not what is cool at the time. I would not have bought the Passat if I did not find one under Invoice. My brother-in-law wanted a Dodge Cummins in the worst way. He only uses it to haul his car to Bonneville once a year. He ended up with the new Dodge Ram Hemi for $7k less. In the end he could not justify the extra cost. The other side of the coin is longevity. People bought MB over the years as much for the long term reliability as they did the MB luxury. Honda diesel Accords will sell well unless they are so loaded down with emissions crap that they cannot perform as well as the competition. The last item and no small one is the new CARB regulations for 2007 are not set in concrete. There is a lawsuit between the state and the Feds over jurisdiction. CARB has over the years gone around the EPA on regulations. That has caused a lot of problems for the manufacturers trying to build a standard. The next couple years will be interesting. According to a friend that owns a Smog Test station here in San Diego, there is no test available for the diesel cars. Some states have a very basic opacity test that measures light through your exhaust smoke on big diesel vehicles. I can tell you that the exhaust from my new VW TDI cannot be seen or smelled. Gas vehicles have more odor than a modern diesel using BP/ARCO ULSD.
Willie Nelson, Woody Harrelson & Darrel Hannah among others are actively pushing Biodiesel. To use it you have to have a diesel vehicle. No current hybrids will run on the very earth friendly fuel. Any manufacturer that comes out with a diesel that is warrantied for B100 will be a hit with this segment of Hollywood.
It will be intereseting to see what happens - since June 1 is the start of ULSD availability nation wide seems to me that MY 07 diesel should be possible. BTW, CARB estimates that refiners will charge 2-4 cents more/gal for ULSD - insignificant in fuel of over $2/gal.
http://gobiodiesel.org/tiki-index.php?page=BiodieselBasics
http://gobiodiesel.org/tiki-view_faq.php?faqId=1#q15
http://www.gobiodiesel.org/diesel-vehicles.html
But Biodiesel runs better, and cleaner in your engine than Diesel does. The difficulty of it is of course finding a place with a good supply, but we live in Portland OR and have a great place for it here. It also blends perfectly with Diesel if you need to. Only practical difference is that in a climate with freezing temperatures you must put an additive in it or blend a minimum of 15% petrodiesel.
IF you have an older diesel without rubber or butyl lines you cannot use biodiesel without changing the lines as it is a very powerful solvent and will eat them away. Good side is if your lines are safe (all newer vehicles) it will clean your engine out very well.
Myself I love my gmc truck, and yes its a huge guzzler. I really want a diesel for my wife, but she will only drive wagons. I see there is the Passat, but boy I could only dream of an accord wagon in diesel. Too much to dream for maybe.
Anyways for me emissions are not the concern, as Biodiesel beats the pants off of a hybrid in terms of emissions... but where to get a highquality, modest priced wagon.
Anyways, I see a lot of you talking not just about mileage, but emissions. If you REALLY want CLEAN emissions with equivelent mileage hybrid is not the way to go, rather biodiesel is. Runs just like diesel in a diesel engine with equivelent/slightly superior power, mixes with it, but is far far cleaner - exhaust smells like wesson oil, that sort of popcorn/frenchfry smell too if its been made from fast-food-chain vegetable oil. It's around $3 a gallon right now so it is only as cost effective when compared to gasoline, not petro-diesel. But as far as emissions go compared to petro-diesel, there is no comparison.
VWA, at my last read has come out SELECTIVELY in favor of biodiesel. I think at their pronouncement there were no effective standards for biodiesel: such as for #2 diesel. I am SWAGGING they had some warranty issues with some folks using certain " non standardized " bio diesel fuel.
As you know USLD is available NOW: but at very selective outlets ( at a premium price, as is biodiesel). In theory, the low sulfur USLD fuel will make it's commoditized debut in 2006.
The concepts of "distill your own" grow your own, domestic farm growth of alternative fuels might not be for EVERYBODY or even be the so called "MAGIC BULLET that the environmental wackos and regulators want, but for whatever this segment grows to: in percentage terms will be that much less% unleaded gasoline we have to import. It is indeed ironic that the ones calling for the decrease import of foreign oils are some of the MAJOR impediments to issues like biodiesel and soybean based (homegrown) alternatives.