As you know USLD is available NOW: but at very selective outlets ( at a premium price, as is biodiesel).
My ARCO station has the best price for diesel and it is the BP ULSD good stuff. I filled yesterday and it was $2.459. Premium is $2.559 and regular has dropped to $2.339. Most of the other stations are still selling diesel at $2.499. The only biodiesel in San Diego is at the RTC station. I called the other day and they were selling B20 for $2.539. It is about 20 miles from me and not worth it when I can get ULSD cheaper.
One of the links you listed gives a very sobering statement. The question was "How many gallons of biodiesel can be grown per acre per year?", and the answer was "...between 60 and 500 gallons, depending on the feedstock". Using even the most optomistic estimate above, and assuming an average of 15,000 miles per year for distance driven and 30 MPG consumption, each vehicle will consume the output from an acre of land every year. I know we have a lot of land in this country, but if we can't improve on those numbers we are going to be hard put to support more than a small fraction of the vehicles in this country using biodiesel.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
So do you think the WASTE streams will decrease or increase.??
Berkeley CA has a "diesel" coop that gets its "raw material" from the local waste dump. Off the top of my head they "refine" app 30-40k gallons per year from unrelenting waste streams at the local dump. The last I checked it was 100 dollars membership fee (probably to cover the cart boys) and three dollars per gal. Some folks might not know but historically Berkeley has been the epicenter of the environmental movement and most of the higher costs of the per gal cost of bio diesel is to amortize the ENORMOUS regulatory compliance costs to put the coop station on line!! . As a comparison corner store #2 diesel is at 2.55 per with a range of 2.39 to 2.79
Also it probably should be mentioned that passenger diesels are 2.3 - 2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet or between 5.3M-6.7M . Passenger vehicle fleet being 231M vehicles. Also soybeans are one of the BIGGEST farm cash crops! Most soybean farmers lose money when the product is going to oversupply product areas! Soybeans suffer from ever decreasing price per bushel. This could mean that a demand for soybeans (for biodiesel production could make soybean farming more profitable.
Also the most radical thing about waste stream recycling is it costs between .42-.65 cents a gal in precurser costs to convert to bio diesel. vs the snap shot of #2 diesel per gal cost above. This is not even to mention a service is provided by taking away old mc donald's USED fryer oil.
A long time diesel engine tuner, Gale Banks said it the most sound bite able. Words to the effect that we import crude oil from folks that DO NOT like us. (GEE an understatement) Domestic soybean fuel product is getting product domestically from folks we would even like to hang out with AND the money stays domestically??. .... What a concept!
I am with you 100%. I don't care where we get the biodiesel; soybeans, algae, garbage, cow dung, whatever. As long as it's produced domestically. Boy would I sleep better at night if I knew that we could go it on our own with fuel if we had to. Not to mention what it would do for our balance of trade.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
From a consumer's point of view, I would probably agree that the customers really do not care where it comes from. However from a production/productive point of view, we need to stimulate alternate, alternative, creative ways of looking at old problems to yield new ways of dealing with things.
In the case of the biodiesel product from unrelenting waste streams at the local dump, this is more like the principle, when life gives you lemons make lemonade. But I doubt without the logistical support, such as tax code, economic incentives, on going research, management etc etc, they would probably be bemoaning the terrific over supply of un processable waste instead of having a new use for waste products.
If you drive in England you'd have a coronary! I drive a Honda Accord 2.2 diesel which is an excellent car. At present a gallon (imperial...about 10% bigger than a US gallon) is 91pence per litre. A gallon = 4.5 litres giving a cost of £4.09; with 1£=$1.8 this give an equivalent cost as $7.37c.
As you can imagine fuel economy is king over here: this year about 45% of all new cars will be diesels. I wonder why!
Have you found that the latest diesel engined vehicles' exhaust fumes smell any better than older ones? I presume that there are smaller exhaust clouds behind the newer ones. Is that true?
Some of those old lorries and Austin taxis were pretty bad the last time I was in the UK.
Have you found that the latest diesel engined vehicles' exhaust fumes smell any better than older ones? I presume that there are smaller exhaust clouds behind the newer ones. Is that true?
Some of those old lorries and Austin taxis were pretty bad the last time I was in the UK. "
No it is not!
This sentiment is so 1980's MB diesel era that it is almost like comparing the year before unleaded gas was released in the late 1970's.
Keep in mind it took 30 years for unleaded gasoline to get to where it is right now. Diesel is doing it in increments of 5 year product cycles.
I think the smell hasn't really changed much: what is different is the amount of smoke which has decreased enormously due to various Euro 3 and 4 compliance regulations (enforced by tax breaks for company drivers). With common rail diesel engines and particulate traps modern diesels in Europe are forcing people away from the traditional default choice of petrol-engined cars.
Lorries have got better but taxis are pretty much the same. However I bet you'd smoke a bit if you had 200 000 miles on the clock!
Perhaps your wife should move to England....we have an excellent Honda Accord Tourer (aka estate care) with the 2.2 diesel engine that so many people have raved about. The only problem over here is both the cost of the vehicle which is about $40 000 and the price of a gallon of diesel at $7.00.
On a brighter note Honda are shifting as many as they can make and they are building a new factory in Swindon UK to make the engines for European cars. Who knows: maybe they'll remember Uncle Sam in their marketing plans.
Given 2.55 in comparison 7 US for a gal of petro/diesel in the UK I have always been mystified why Americans refuse to discount their cost of travel. Seems to me if my VW Jetta diesel gets 50 mpg and fuel costs 2.55 vs 7., ie .051 cents, .14 cents per miles driven, Americans would have the lower cost per mile driven for fuel.
So how Americans chose to try to even that up is pretty simple: get a car that gets way less mileage.: ie to even up the cost per mile driven , ie 2.55/15 mpg= .17 cents. Seems to me that it makes more sense to take a good discount to the bank.???
Already, the current 2.2-liter I-4 i-CTDi engine is very close to meeting the very strict CARB 2007 model year emission regulations; with the switch to low-sulfur diesel #2 fuel in Summer 2006 I think the engine will likely pass the CARB test.
Mind you, for the US market I think there will be a number of changes:
1. The engine may have a displacement of 2.4 liters for better high-end power.
2. We may see a beefed-up Antonov AAD automatic transmission in six-speed form used (Honda has a license to build the Antonov AAD and the AAD could easily adapt to the very high torque peak of the i-CTDi engine).
Can you imagine 32 mpg city/40 mpg highway EPA ratings for the diesel-powered Accord sedan? :shades:
..."1. The engine may have a displacement of 2.4 liters for better high-end power."...
One of the misconceptions and/or things that go unnoticed or overlooked is the torque rating of the 4 cylinder CTDI at 255# ft of torque. The V6 gasser motor has 212 #ft of torque. The gasser Accord 4 cylinder engine is rated at 161 # ft of torque.
I have a 1.9 liter 4 cylinder 90 hp 155# ft of torque Jetta TDI. It is capable of cruising 85-100 mph all day (top speed of 124 mph) and will get between 50-44-mpg at those cruising speeds.
# ft of torque wise the CTDI is competitive with the Passat PD TDI at app 245 # ft of torque.
I like Honda, it's one of my favorite car maker (if not the one ). Their cars are just so well-engineered (the Ridgeline is awesome ). But it was no very popular in France (I am from France) because they didn't have models with diesel engines in their range...until the (european) Accord 2.2iCDTI. The car is great...the engine is a MASTERPIECE (build where they build aluminum parts for the S2000 and NSX....). Those engineers from Honda are amazing :surprise: . BMW, MB, AUDI, VW, Peugeot and Renault have been making diesel engines for ages. They all make very good engines. Honda makes its very first diesel engine and it's better than the best engine of the category (320D), this is amazing to me. Not to mention that the engine is ok for the next euro standard emissions without any modifications... I didn't drive the car when I was in France but I went to see it at the dealership. The engine is really a MASTERPIECE. The engine is so quiet, you wouldn't believe it's a diesel engine. I have seen lots of diesel engines in my life but this one blew me away. I don't know if people here in the US would see how great this engine is. Being used to gas engines, they are going to say: "This engine is making more noise and vibrations than my good old gas engine"...Of course it always makes more noise and vibrations than a gas engine. But what the Honda engineers did on this engine is just amazing. Those who deeply know the evolution of the diesel engine can see it... BMW and the others should start worried, a new big player in the diesel car market is coming...
Around here, the price of diesel fuel is about $0.25 per gallon more than regular gasoline. That's about a 12% hit, before the new low-sulphur diesel fuel arrives in the market at an even higher price.
Masterpiece or not, there may be a real problem with the cost/benefit ratio when considering purchasing a diesel-engined car. That's not even considering the smell and particulate emissions concerns with diesels.
The concerns with smell and particualte emissions are addressed. The smell from a new diesel engine exhaust is almost non- existent. The particulate emissions are currently removed with filters (self clensing) in the new line up of Volvo diesels for example. The technology is available and in use, just not in the US.
That's right, the fact that in the US the diesel fuel is more expensive than the gas is a problem. In France, they don't have this problem, diesel is cheaper than gas, the choice is easy to make...But even if the diesel fuel would be more expensive than the gas (let's say 0.25 euros more expensive) they would stick with the diesel. Once you go diesel, you never go backward... Smokes, Fumes, particulate emissions ?? On a diesel engine here in the States for sure but not in Europe. Peugeot was the first to introduced the particule filter technology in the market...a couple years ago. You can do whatever you want with the car, you will never get a single particulate out of the engine. It is so good that when you go to the "technical control" (in France, every year you have to control the emissions of your car and they make a total check-up of the car: lights, brake...og course you have to pay for that) the sensor keep saying "insert the probe in the exhaust pipe"...as the probe is already in the exhaust pipe and this engine is running at 4000rpm... I agree that the real problem is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to make lots of miles per year if you want the car to be profitable...
The gap between Europe and the US regarding passenger cars is huge. It is two completely different worlds. Here you talk about EGR, VGT, injector-pump, pre-injection, post-injection, particulate filters, they look at you and say "What the hell are you talking about?" The only ones who knows are those who build heavy-duty diesel engines for highway or off-highway applications: CAT, Deere, Cummins, Detroit,etc. The US car makers, they know nothing about that. It's amazing to say that but, today, the engine on a John Deere tractor is more technologically advanced than the engine on a diesel pick-up truck! By the end of this year, the off-road engines are facing the new Tier 3 emissions standards. For Deere, it means EGR, VGT, ECU-32bits, 4valves, centered injector, injector-pumps (like a VW TDI) on the bigger engine.... You are about to say: we've got all those features on the GM Duramax. That's right, this is a great engine, thank you...ISUZU.
It appears that when most people in this continent hear the word diesel they think of a smelly diesel Chevette. Ignorance will be the key obstacle in introducing diesels.
Fortunately we do get a MB320D and they are beauts. I am looking forward to the BMW diesel offerings sometime in 2007. A BMW535D wagon is my dream mobile.
Having said that the Honda Accord diesel, if priced reasonably will be my top choice since it would provide the most value for the $$$!
I would buy a Honda "Accord" type CTDI in a heartbeat. The CTDI Honda, I have read has 140 hp and 255# ft of torque!!!
I have app 58,000 miles on a VW Jetta TDI. The fuel mileage range has been between 44-62 mpg. It has an EPA rating of 42/49. I just absolutely love the TDI even with 90 hp and 155# ft of torque . In comparison the Honda Civic VP gets between 35-39 mpg, when one is being WAY diligent in getting better fuel mileage. All one needs to do is to run the numbers to see the actual fuel cost per mile (BIG ADVANTAGE DIESEL)
So you can imagine the Honda's 140 hp and 255# ft of torque is probably just plain awesome. And still getting 40-44 mpg?? WOW.
I live side by side with a gasser 2004 Honda Civic VP and the 2003 VW Jetta TDI. While I love the fact that BOTH cars have been flawless, (VP for 14,000 miles and Jetta for 58,000 miles) ) there have been too many posts indicating the Honda's have a better statistical average of more trouble free vehicles than the VW's.
I also must state the Honda does very well with a LESSER quality constructed vehicle in contrast with VW who stumbles in a lot more areas with a much HIGHER quality vehicle. The examples are too numerous to mention.
Honda Accord/CRV CTDI will punch a hole in sales of the one segment VW is doing reasoanably well in: TDI sales.
I am not impressed that the new Jetta will receive the old 1.9 diesel engine from the prior model. Not a bad engine mind you, but if you are going to have a model change--at least the engineers can improve the diesel engine. Also the 2.5l engine in the new Jetta is a JOKE for a new model.
My prediction is that the brand new Passat TDI will have the same old 2.0l TDI as the old model. If that would be the case, the engineers in Wolfsburg must be in snooze mode.
In contrast compare the new Honda Civic. A new 1.8l engine that burns gas like a 1.5l engine and power of a 2.0l engine. That is impressive engineering!
Not to overemphasize the obvious, but one engine is here and the other isn't. I fully expect the 1.9T TDI to go a min of 500k to 1 M miles. We still don't really know for example if the Honda CTDI will come to the USA, let alone being available in those 5 states who currently have a ban on new diesel sales.So it remains to be seen.
We can always look to the cars available in Europe . Almost EVERY model of vehicle has a diesel and manual transmission option. But the fact of the matter is the most fuel efficient models are literally BANNED here in the form they sell for in Europe.
Notwithstanding fully 45% of the European passenger vehicle fleet are diesel vs a very very pale 2.3-2.5% in the USA. I have also seen Honda press releases which indicate the CTDI motor is the basis on which they expect European Honda sales to propel them to 45% of all Honda sales.
RE: I fully expect the 1.9T TDI to go a min of 500k to 1 M miles. So does regular gasoline engine, but most modern vehicle is morelikely to have earlier failure on electrical and emission than mechanical.
Why do people assume that diesel will last longer than gasoline? There are plenty gasoline engine last longer than diesel, for example american V8, and Toyota R22 engine. In fact Mercedes diesel is only number 7.
Perhaps you overlooked the ethos of my post? I would be more than thrilled to get 500k on my gasser Honda VP!!!!
But again, do the math. Using 500k miles, If I get 35-39 mpg gasser vs 44-62 diesel mpg, I will use between 14,285-12,820 gals gasser vs 11,364-8,065 gals diesel.
On the lower MPG range 35/44 mpg, I am using 20% MORE fuel, given both engines going 500k. So the fuel savings are 2922 GALs x 2.65 current price per gal or $7743 or 2922gal x 44 mpg or 128,568 miles further.
At the upper MPG ranges 39/62 mpg the savings are 4756 gals x2.65=$12,603. or 294,872 miles further or 37% less fuel.
Durability of diesels are 2.5 to 3 times of gas engines. If you're in doubt I would glad to send you some diesel vs gasoline engine links.
Your statistics does not prove the durability of gas engines over diesels. Those are US stats. And what is the percentage of cars in the USA that are diesel? About a quarter of one percent. The fact that there is a diesel among the top 7 is nothing short of amazing and is a testament on the durability of diesels!
I also would agree! While I read that current diesel passenger vehicle populations are at 2.3/2.5% of a 231M passenger vehicle populations, per NHTSA, I would hesitate to call a Cummins Diesel 250,350 2500,3500 frame to be a middle of the road passenger vehicle: such as the MB E320 turbo diesel while it is counted in that population.
to diesel only as it relates to the possibility of an Accord version. This is not the general diesel discussion. Thanks!
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I checked out your link. I wonder who knows about it. I have a friend with Cloud 9 shuttle service in San Diego. He told me they get an average of 400,000 miles from their Chevy Vans and 250,000 miles from their Ford Vans. I think these may be isolated vehicles on that chart. One Subaru in the midwest is over 700,000 miles used to deliver a rural mail route. Used in Subaru ads several years ago. That chart did not indicate if the engines had been overhauled in those mileages. When you check eBay the highest mileage vehicles that bring any kind of money are mostly diesel.
On the Honda diesel. They had very little market penetration in the EU until they offered diesel cars. Diesel engines are superior in several ways. Mileage, torque & longevity.
Honda released the diesel version in early 2004 in the UK. On the Continent diesels make up almost 80% of sales primarily because of tax policies; in the UK there is ferocious taxation (about 75% of the cost is tax) and diesel is actually more expensive over here. The other big difference here is that about 50% of all new cars are bought by businesses and many companies are now diesel only...and that is the biggest reason for the Honda diesel. Without it they are increasingly squeezed out commercially. It will be interesting to see if Honda compete with the new Toyota 2.2l 175bhp diesel: I'd love to see a 180bhp Honda diesel rather than the 140bhp in the current car!
"Honda is developing a new six-cylinder diesel engine for use in models for the American market.
A latecomer to the diesel party, Honda intends to fit diesel engines in its larger model ranges, including the US-market Accord and its SUVs, but the four-cylinder 2.2-litre engine sold in the Accord and CR-V in Europe meets neither US nor Japanese emissions legislation. It is also not powerful enough for vehicles such as the Pilot, Element and Ridgeline.
Honda CEO Takeo Fukui told Automotive News this week that although Honda's existing diesels did not meet US legislation "at a reasonable cost... in the near future it will be possible." He said that Honda would offer a series of different fuel-efficient powertrains: "Looking at Honda's line-up, for the smaller, more compact cars, it should be hybrids. But for the larger ones, it would be more towards environmentally friendly diesel." He said that a V6 was likely.
This engine is also likely to be offered in Europe, as a top-end option in the Accord as well as in the upcoming new Legend luxury saloon and in 4x4 models.
With a relatively economical engine option, some of Honda's larger US-market models, such as the Element, could also come to Europe for the first time."
Honda will bring their diesels to the US when they can meet Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions, and therefore be sold in all 50 states. I doubt that Honda will have an Accord diesel in the US because it would impact Accord Hybrid sales. My guess is that Honda will sell an Acura TSX diesel in the US, positioning it upscale, similar to the Mercedes 320 diesel.
Been doing a little research on what to get for the next car. My ol' Civic VX is getting a bit long in the tooth, and I'm not too impressed with the hybrids.
VW Jetta TDI... pretty good, currently available in the US, but not in California Honda Accord i-CTD... pretty good mileage, but only recently available in the UK
Actually got interested when I saw the Honda 'Grrr' ad. Pretty nifty.
Here's a few things I have learned about diesels vs gasoline.
- 15% more energy per unit volume than gasoline... since fuel is sold by volume, this puts diesel ahead off the bat. - about 4cents less than gasoline, at least in California... another 1% advantage to diesel - approx $4k to $6k surcharge over gasoline vehicles... about the same for hybrids... so this is a wash for hybrids vs diesel... plus, no worries about replacing batteries later on - 15ppm sulfur fuel to be available for sale in California on June 1, 2006. We might see the VW Jetta TDI become available... or not - 7500 miles on the odometer, if you want to register a vehicle in California as a used car - Audi R10 V12 diesel ... ooooooh... droooooool
News release 5/16/2006 Read the last paragraph first...and then the whole article if you want.
TOKYO (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co. (7267.T) said on Wednesday it will build new plants in Japan, the United States and Canada. President and Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said the new U.S. plant would cost $400 million and would start operating in 2008. It would have a capacity of 200,000 units and a work force of more than 1,500. ADVERTISEMENT
He said he could not yet disclose its location.
Honda will also build a new 200,000 unit per year engine plant in Canada for $140 million, to start production in 2008. It will employ about 340 workers and will be located near an existing plant in Ontario.
Fukui told a mid-year news conference the new car assembly plant in Japan will start operating in 2010 with an annual capacity of 200,000 units.
The plant, in Saitama, near Tokyo, will have 2,200 workers and will raise its capacity in Japan to 1.5 million units a year from 1.3 million.
He also said Honda would sell a new, low-cost hybrid car in 2009. It targets annual sales of 200,000 units of the family-use hybrid.
It will also raise its motorcycle production capacity in Asia to 14 million units by 2007.
Fukui said Honda is developing a clean, next-generation four-cylinder diesel engine that will meet strict U.S. emissions standards due to go into effect in California in 2009.
...a clean, next-generation four-cylinder diesel engine that will meet strict U.S. emissions standards due to go into effect in California in 2009.
....Great! Based on the superb engineering extant on my present AV6 6M coupe, a Honda diesel may just be in line to replace the little diesel pickup in my garage in a few more years.......little dude has 290k on its' orig 4 cyl.
"approx $4k to $6k surcharge over gasoline vehicles... about the same for hybrids... so this is a wash for hybrids vs diesel... plus, no worries about replacing batteries later on"
The 2006 VW and MB vehicles mentioned DO NOT MEET Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions. Shall I repeat it? The 2006 VW and MB vehicles mentioned DO NOT MEET Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions.
Before you act like a typical German and start calling people idiots, please, for God's sake, read and understand what the person is saying.
For a vehicle to meet the Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard, it has been predicted that there will be a significant mark-up for the DPNR or SCR required to meet Tier 2 Bin 5 or even EU-V for that matter. The vehicles you mentioned as proof of your lack of idiocy are an apples to oranges comparison.
Where in his post did it mention he was comparing tier 2 Bin 5 emission diesel engines to gasoline engines???? Where?
He made the statement that comparative diesel models cost $4-6K MORE than their gasoline counterparts. That is incorrect.
There has been NO prices released by MB for any of its Bluetec models for 2007, so how can you make the suggestion they will cost 4-6K MORE??
In addition, VW will NOT have any TDI models for 2007, and for MY 2008, prices have NOT been released but if they do come stateside, they certainly wont be 4-6K more than a comparable gasoline engine.
Well, Germancarfan1, I guess you are right. He didn't mention Tier 2 Bin 5. He did mention California twice in his post and Tier 2 Bin 5 is active there, actually it is called California LEVII and has been active there since 2004. He said he wanted to buy a new car and the next model year is 07 and that is when T2B5 takes effect all over the US. I guess I'm an IDIOT for assuming that he was speaking of T2B5. My bad.
I do find it curious that although you state that there are NO prices yet released for any VW or MB diesels, YOU, in your infinite wisdom, can PREDICT what they will or won't cost! Please tell me what the cost of AdBlue will be when you get a chance. And please, Mr. Uber-prognosticator, tell me what the cost of gasoline versus diesel will be in 2008 when diesel refining capacity is reduced to accomdate more gasoline product and the 15ppm diesel fuel has gone nationwide. I ask you this because you state that you KNOW that the VW TDI's certainly won't be 4-6K more than a conventional gasoline engine.
I guess my problem with your original post was that you went out and called a guy an idiot for posting what he thought was some worthwhile information. He wasn't being mean, or disparaging, he was just being informative. Then, out of the blue, you have to take time away from torturing your cat with a fork and kicking puppies to call a guy a name for NO GOOD REASON. That is just anti-social behavior and a sign of an angry, bitter, unhappy individual. Then I have to lower myself to your level by defending the guy and pointing out the fact that you are probably a societal pariah.
I hope you'll forgive me for making everyone on this forum aware of your shortcomings. Please take your obvious skills at forecasting vehicle prices and apply them to the stock market, make a windfall of cash and pay a therapist to understand and come to grips with your obvious self-loathing.
As for the source of my knowledge of proposed vehicle prices, those are the numbers that are being bandied about in industry circles primarily from the 2006 JD Power Global Diesel Study (as the only publicly available one I can quote) to predict diesel market penetration up until 2015.
For a new diesel vehicle to be sold in the United States, it must meet Tier 2 Bin 5, not just EuroIV/V like the VW TDI's. In fact, even when EU makes the proposed new EuroVI standard effective in 2013, it will not be as tough as the current UST2B5 standard. The fear is that the cost of making a passenger diesel vehicle emissions compliant will require a precious metal-heavy catalyst and particulate trap whose cost will rival the Hybrid vehicle. Also, as the cost of batteries decreases based on having more suppliers available, Hybrids might become cheaper than diesels. Diesels will always be available in Europe with their reduced emissions standards but may not sell in the US market in HV sized numbers for some time to come. Just my 2 cents (but I'm sure tht Germancarfans info is worth at least 0.03Euros).
For a new diesel vehicle to be sold in the United States, it must meet Tier 2 Bin 5,
I'm hoping that Congress sees the light and shoots down the ignorant rules put forth by the EPA and CARB. The Holy Grail of zero emissions is what is driving the cost of cars & fuel beyond reason. What will happen is people will keep plugging along in their old beaters that pollute way more than a modern diesel does currently. The new rules will not help in the least with GHG or our usage of fossil fuel. It will only add to the problem and give a few of the wealthier folks a car they can point to and say "Look at Me I am the Jolly Green Giant". We need to back up a little and take some baby steps on emissions and some adult steps on fossil fuel usage. Without more diesel cars being sold we can never migrate to biodiesel, a far superior fuel to that near worthless ethanol.
ok just 2 questions but isn't a 2006 vw jetta tdi and new beetle hatch already out?? In fact the only vw diesel not out is the v10turbo used in the 03-04 vw touareg! 2 Isn't this supposed to be about an accord diesel? :confuse:
Good question, yes we are all eagerly awaiting the Honda diesel to hit our showrooms. It seems they are trying to clean it up so that it can be sold in all 50 states. What is happening is the rules get changed on a regular basis. The EPA & CARB have no interest in fuel economy. Their whole purpose for being is to clean the exhaust coming from our vehicles. We could load the vehicle down with emissions crap to where a Civic only gets 18 MPG and that would be fine with EPA.
The EU by contrast is trying to reach a balance between clean emissions and good fuel economy. The EU jumped on the Honda diesel right away. Honda is finally making some progress selling cars in the UK with their fine diesel engine. We get the overly complex hyrids and the EU get good mileage. The Accord diesel is more than capable of 40+ MPG. If you drove it like some folks drive their hybrids you would get 50-60 MPG with an Accord diesel, less all the hybrid stuff to break and wear out.
and don't forget the civic diesel... I watched a recent episode of top gear and the usually euro loving host just cannot pull himself together after driving the 5 door civic diesel.
I read in passing the Civic diesel is not the Honda "made" cTDI,(as on the Honda (Accord, Am equivalent) but if I remember correctly an italian product or from izusu.
It was a highly favorable review (actually, including a video, if nwng is talking about the same review, I'm thinking about).
Civic Diesel uses the same Honda diesel that is found in Accord (and CR-V and FR-V... not sure if the latter two already are being offered in Europe with it, but were supposed to).
Comments
My ARCO station has the best price for diesel and it is the BP ULSD good stuff. I filled yesterday and it was $2.459. Premium is $2.559 and regular has dropped to $2.339. Most of the other stations are still selling diesel at $2.499. The only biodiesel in San Diego is at the RTC station. I called the other day and they were selling B20 for $2.539. It is about 20 miles from me and not worth it when I can get ULSD cheaper.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
So do you think the WASTE streams will decrease or increase.??
Berkeley CA has a "diesel" coop that gets its "raw material" from the local waste dump. Off the top of my head they "refine" app 30-40k gallons per year from unrelenting waste streams at the local dump. The last I checked it was 100 dollars membership fee (probably to cover the cart boys) and three dollars per gal. Some folks might not know but historically Berkeley has been the epicenter of the environmental movement and most of the higher costs of the per gal cost of bio diesel is to amortize the ENORMOUS regulatory compliance costs to put the coop station on line!! . As a comparison corner store #2 diesel is at 2.55 per with a range of 2.39 to 2.79
Also it probably should be mentioned that passenger diesels are 2.3 - 2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet or between 5.3M-6.7M . Passenger vehicle fleet being 231M vehicles. Also soybeans are one of the BIGGEST farm cash crops! Most soybean farmers lose money when the product is going to oversupply product areas! Soybeans suffer from ever decreasing price per bushel. This could mean that a demand for soybeans (for biodiesel production could make soybean farming more profitable.
Also the most radical thing about waste stream recycling is it costs between .42-.65 cents a gal in precurser costs to convert to bio diesel. vs the snap shot of #2 diesel per gal cost above. This is not even to mention a service is provided by taking away old mc donald's USED fryer oil.
A long time diesel engine tuner, Gale Banks said it the most sound bite able. Words to the effect that we import crude oil from folks that DO NOT like us. (GEE an understatement) Domestic soybean fuel product is getting product domestically from folks we would even like to hang out with AND the money stays domestically??. .... What a concept!
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
In the case of the biodiesel product from unrelenting waste streams at the local dump, this is more like the principle, when life gives you lemons make lemonade. But I doubt without the logistical support, such as tax code, economic incentives, on going research, management etc etc, they would probably be bemoaning the terrific over supply of un processable waste instead of having a new use for waste products.
As you can imagine fuel economy is king over here: this year about 45% of all new cars will be diesels. I wonder why!
Have you found that the latest diesel engined vehicles' exhaust fumes smell any better than older ones? I presume that there are smaller exhaust clouds behind the newer ones. Is that true?
Some of those old lorries and Austin taxis were pretty bad the last time I was in the UK.
Have you found that the latest diesel engined vehicles' exhaust fumes smell any better than older ones? I presume that there are smaller exhaust clouds behind the newer ones. Is that true?
Some of those old lorries and Austin taxis were pretty bad the last time I was in the UK. "
No it is not!
This sentiment is so 1980's MB diesel era that it is almost like comparing the year before unleaded gas was released in the late 1970's.
Keep in mind it took 30 years for unleaded gasoline to get to where it is right now. Diesel is doing it in increments of 5 year product cycles.
Lorries have got better but taxis are pretty much the same. However I bet you'd smoke a bit if you had 200 000 miles on the clock!
On a brighter note Honda are shifting as many as they can make and they are building a new factory in Swindon UK to make the engines for European cars. Who knows: maybe they'll remember Uncle Sam in their marketing plans.
So how Americans chose to try to even that up is pretty simple: get a car that gets way less mileage.: ie to even up the cost per mile driven , ie 2.55/15 mpg= .17 cents. Seems to me that it makes more sense to take a good discount to the bank.???
Already, the current 2.2-liter I-4 i-CTDi engine is very close to meeting the very strict CARB 2007 model year emission regulations; with the switch to low-sulfur diesel #2 fuel in Summer 2006 I think the engine will likely pass the CARB test.
Mind you, for the US market I think there will be a number of changes:
1. The engine may have a displacement of 2.4 liters for better high-end power.
2. We may see a beefed-up Antonov AAD automatic transmission in six-speed form used (Honda has a license to build the Antonov AAD and the AAD could easily adapt to the very high torque peak of the i-CTDi engine).
Can you imagine 32 mpg city/40 mpg highway EPA ratings for the diesel-powered Accord sedan? :shades:
One of the misconceptions and/or things that go unnoticed or overlooked is the torque rating of the 4 cylinder CTDI at 255# ft of torque. The V6 gasser motor has 212 #ft of torque. The gasser Accord 4 cylinder engine is rated at 161 # ft of torque.
I have a 1.9 liter 4 cylinder 90 hp 155# ft of torque Jetta TDI. It is capable of cruising 85-100 mph all day (top speed of 124 mph) and will get between 50-44-mpg at those cruising speeds.
# ft of torque wise the CTDI is competitive with the Passat PD TDI at app 245 # ft of torque.
Spare me the fancy named slush box and give me a stick!
I don't get it.
BMW, MB, AUDI, VW, Peugeot and Renault have been making diesel engines for ages. They all make very good engines. Honda makes its very first diesel engine and it's better than the best engine of the category (320D), this is amazing to me. Not to mention that the engine is ok for the next euro standard emissions without any modifications...
I didn't drive the car when I was in France but I went to see it at the dealership. The engine is really a MASTERPIECE. The engine is so quiet, you wouldn't believe it's a diesel engine. I have seen lots of diesel engines in my life but this one blew me away. I don't know if people here in the US would see how great this engine is. Being used to gas engines, they are going to say: "This engine is making more noise and vibrations than my good old gas engine"...Of course it always makes more noise and vibrations than a gas engine. But what the Honda engineers did on this engine is just amazing. Those who deeply know the evolution of the diesel engine can see it...
BMW and the others should start worried, a new big player in the diesel car market is coming...
Masterpiece or not, there may be a real problem with the cost/benefit ratio when considering purchasing a diesel-engined car. That's not even considering the smell and particulate emissions concerns with diesels.
Smokes, Fumes, particulate emissions ?? On a diesel engine here in the States for sure but not in Europe. Peugeot was the first to introduced the particule filter technology in the market...a couple years ago. You can do whatever you want with the car, you will never get a single particulate out of the engine. It is so good that when you go to the "technical control" (in France, every year you have to control the emissions of your car and they make a total check-up of the car: lights, brake...og course you have to pay for that) the sensor keep saying "insert the probe in the exhaust pipe"...as the probe is already in the exhaust pipe and this engine is running at 4000rpm...
I agree that the real problem is the cost/benefit ratio. You have to make lots of miles per year if you want the car to be profitable...
The gap between Europe and the US regarding passenger cars is huge. It is two completely different worlds. Here you talk about EGR, VGT, injector-pump, pre-injection, post-injection, particulate filters, they look at you and say "What the hell are you talking about?" The only ones who knows are those who build heavy-duty diesel engines for highway or off-highway applications: CAT, Deere, Cummins, Detroit,etc. The US car makers, they know nothing about that.
It's amazing to say that but, today, the engine on a John Deere tractor is more technologically advanced than the engine on a diesel pick-up truck! By the end of this year, the off-road engines are facing the new Tier 3 emissions standards. For Deere, it means EGR, VGT, ECU-32bits, 4valves, centered injector, injector-pumps (like a VW TDI) on the bigger engine....
You are about to say: we've got all those features on the GM Duramax. That's right, this is a great engine, thank you...ISUZU.
Fortunately we do get a MB320D and they are beauts. I am looking forward to the BMW diesel offerings sometime in 2007. A BMW535D wagon is my dream mobile.
Having said that the Honda Accord diesel, if priced reasonably will be my top choice since it would provide the most value for the $$$!
I have app 58,000 miles on a VW Jetta TDI. The fuel mileage range has been between 44-62 mpg. It has an EPA rating of 42/49. I just absolutely love the TDI even with 90 hp and 155# ft of torque . In comparison the Honda Civic VP gets between 35-39 mpg, when one is being WAY diligent in getting better fuel mileage. All one needs to do is to run the numbers to see the actual fuel cost per mile (BIG ADVANTAGE DIESEL)
So you can imagine the Honda's 140 hp and 255# ft of torque is probably just plain awesome. And still getting 40-44 mpg?? WOW.
I live side by side with a gasser 2004 Honda Civic VP and the 2003 VW Jetta TDI. While I love the fact that BOTH cars have been flawless, (VP for 14,000 miles and Jetta for 58,000 miles) ) there have been too many posts indicating the Honda's have a better statistical average of more trouble free vehicles than the VW's.
I also must state the Honda does very well with a LESSER quality constructed vehicle in contrast with VW who stumbles in a lot more areas with a much HIGHER quality vehicle. The examples are too numerous to mention.
I am not impressed that the new Jetta will receive the old 1.9 diesel engine from the prior model. Not a bad engine mind you, but if you are going to have a model change--at least the engineers can improve the diesel engine. Also the 2.5l engine in the new Jetta is a JOKE for a new model.
My prediction is that the brand new Passat TDI will have the same old 2.0l TDI as the old model. If that would be the case, the engineers in Wolfsburg must be in snooze mode.
In contrast compare the new Honda Civic. A new 1.8l engine that burns gas like a 1.5l engine and power of a 2.0l engine. That is impressive engineering!
We can always look to the cars available in Europe . Almost EVERY model of vehicle has a diesel and manual transmission option. But the fact of the matter is the most fuel efficient models are literally BANNED here in the form they sell for in Europe.
Notwithstanding fully 45% of the European passenger vehicle fleet are diesel vs a very very pale 2.3-2.5% in the USA. I have also seen Honda press releases which indicate the CTDI motor is the basis on which they expect European Honda sales to propel them to 45% of all Honda sales.
So does regular gasoline engine, but most modern vehicle is morelikely to have earlier failure on electrical and emission than mechanical.
Why do people assume that diesel will last longer than gasoline? There are plenty gasoline engine last longer than diesel, for example american V8, and Toyota R22 engine. In fact Mercedes diesel is only number 7.
Check out this link: ">http://www.autooninfo.net/autooninfo/DurabilityInformationPage5.htm
But again, do the math. Using 500k miles, If I get 35-39 mpg gasser vs 44-62 diesel mpg, I will use between 14,285-12,820 gals gasser vs 11,364-8,065 gals diesel.
On the lower MPG range 35/44 mpg, I am using 20% MORE fuel, given both engines going 500k. So the fuel savings are 2922 GALs x 2.65 current price per gal or $7743 or 2922gal x 44 mpg or 128,568 miles further.
At the upper MPG ranges 39/62 mpg the savings are 4756 gals x2.65=$12,603. or 294,872 miles further or 37% less fuel.
Your statistics does not prove the durability of gas engines over diesels. Those are US stats. And what is the percentage of cars in the USA that are diesel? About a quarter of one percent. The fact that there is a diesel among the top 7 is nothing short of amazing and is a testament on the durability of diesels!
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On the Honda diesel. They had very little market penetration in the EU until they offered diesel cars. Diesel engines are superior in several ways. Mileage, torque & longevity.
It will be interesting to see if Honda compete with the new Toyota 2.2l 175bhp diesel: I'd love to see a 180bhp Honda diesel rather than the 140bhp in the current car!
A latecomer to the diesel party, Honda intends to fit diesel engines in its larger model ranges, including the US-market Accord and its SUVs, but the four-cylinder 2.2-litre engine sold in the Accord and CR-V in Europe meets neither US nor Japanese emissions legislation. It is also not powerful enough for vehicles such as the Pilot, Element and Ridgeline.
Honda CEO Takeo Fukui told Automotive News this week that although Honda's existing diesels did not meet US legislation "at a reasonable cost... in the near future it will be possible." He said that Honda would offer a series of different fuel-efficient powertrains: "Looking at Honda's line-up, for the smaller, more compact cars, it should be hybrids. But for the larger ones, it would be more towards environmentally friendly diesel." He said that a V6 was likely.
This engine is also likely to be offered in Europe, as a top-end option in the Accord as well as in the upcoming new Legend luxury saloon and in 4x4 models.
With a relatively economical engine option, some of Honda's larger US-market models, such as the Element, could also come to Europe for the first time."
http://web.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=13266
Looks like somebody is listening to our prayers. Can't wait to see and buy a diesel Ridgeline.
Please fwd diesel v.s. gasoline links. I am a diesel believer and owner, but have never seen links.
Thanks.
Tom
...together in my garage during the interim: Honda 6M coupe and a faceless diesel......... from the early 1980 stone age kerosene burning period.
With 290k odo, 55 MPG capability, little PU awaits Honda's small diesel pickup...(probably the proverbial cold day in (Irkutsk?/equivalent.......)
best, ez..
VW Jetta TDI... pretty good, currently available in the US, but not in California
Honda Accord i-CTD... pretty good mileage, but only recently available in the UK
Actually got interested when I saw the Honda 'Grrr' ad. Pretty nifty.
Here's a few things I have learned about diesels vs gasoline.
- 15% more energy per unit volume than gasoline... since fuel is sold by volume, this puts diesel ahead off the bat.
- about 4cents less than gasoline, at least in California... another 1% advantage to diesel
- approx $4k to $6k surcharge over gasoline vehicles... about the same for hybrids... so this is a wash for hybrids vs diesel... plus, no worries about replacing batteries later on
- 15ppm sulfur fuel to be available for sale in California on June 1, 2006. We might see the VW Jetta TDI become available... or not
- 7500 miles on the odometer, if you want to register a vehicle in California as a used car
- Audi R10 V12 diesel ... ooooooh... droooooool
TOKYO (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co. (7267.T) said on Wednesday it will build new plants in Japan, the United States and Canada. President and Chief Executive Takeo Fukui said the new U.S. plant would cost $400 million and would start operating in 2008. It would have a capacity of 200,000 units and a work force of more than 1,500.
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He said he could not yet disclose its location.
Honda will also build a new 200,000 unit per year engine plant in Canada for $140 million, to start production in 2008. It will employ about 340 workers and will be located near an existing plant in Ontario.
Fukui told a mid-year news conference the new car assembly plant in Japan will start operating in 2010 with an annual capacity of 200,000 units.
The plant, in Saitama, near Tokyo, will have 2,200 workers and will raise its capacity in Japan to 1.5 million units a year from 1.3 million.
He also said Honda would sell a new, low-cost hybrid car in 2009. It targets annual sales of 200,000 units of the family-use hybrid.
It will also raise its motorcycle production capacity in Asia to 14 million units by 2007.
Fukui said Honda is developing a clean, next-generation four-cylinder diesel engine that will meet strict U.S. emissions standards due to go into effect in California in
2009.
2009.
....Great! Based on the superb engineering extant on my present AV6 6M coupe, a Honda diesel may just be in line to replace the little diesel pickup in my garage in a few more years.......little dude has 290k on its' orig 4 cyl.
..ez..
hmmm..Wrong. Way off.
2006 Jetta 2.5 Manual: MSRP $20,290
2006 Jetta TDI Manual: MSRP $21,605
Difference: $1315
2006 MB E350 MSRP $50,050
2006 MB E320 CDI: MSRP: $51,050
Difference: $1,000
For god sakes, do some research before you post. Idiot.
Before you act like a typical German and start calling people idiots, please, for God's sake, read and understand what the person is saying.
For a vehicle to meet the Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard, it has been predicted that there will be a significant mark-up for the DPNR or SCR required to meet Tier 2 Bin 5 or even EU-V for that matter. The vehicles you mentioned as proof of your lack of idiocy are an apples to oranges comparison.
He made the statement that comparative diesel models cost $4-6K MORE than their gasoline counterparts. That is incorrect.
There has been NO prices released by MB for any of its Bluetec models for 2007, so how can you make the suggestion they will cost 4-6K MORE??
In addition, VW will NOT have any TDI models for 2007, and for MY 2008, prices have NOT been released but if they do come stateside, they certainly wont be 4-6K more than a comparable gasoline engine.
Learn to read and comprehend, idiot.
Learn to read, idiot.
We could be in a bar.
I do find it curious that although you state that there are NO prices yet released for any VW or MB diesels, YOU, in your infinite wisdom, can PREDICT what they will or won't cost! Please tell me what the cost of AdBlue will be when you get a chance. And please, Mr. Uber-prognosticator, tell me what the cost of gasoline versus diesel will be in 2008 when diesel refining capacity is reduced to accomdate more gasoline product and the 15ppm diesel fuel has gone nationwide.
I ask you this because you state that you KNOW that the VW TDI's certainly won't be 4-6K more than a conventional gasoline engine.
I guess my problem with your original post was that you went out and called a guy an idiot for posting what he thought was some worthwhile information. He wasn't being mean, or disparaging, he was just being informative. Then, out of the blue, you have to take time away from torturing your cat with a fork and kicking puppies to call a guy a name for NO GOOD REASON. That is just anti-social behavior and a sign of an angry, bitter, unhappy individual. Then I have to lower myself to your level by defending the guy and pointing out the fact that you are probably a societal pariah.
I hope you'll forgive me for making everyone on this forum aware of your shortcomings. Please take your obvious skills at forecasting vehicle prices and apply them to the stock market, make a windfall of cash and pay a therapist to understand and come to grips with your obvious self-loathing.
As for the source of my knowledge of proposed vehicle prices, those are the numbers that are being bandied about in industry circles primarily from the 2006 JD Power Global Diesel Study (as the only publicly available one I can quote) to predict diesel market penetration up until 2015.
For a new diesel vehicle to be sold in the United States, it must meet Tier 2 Bin 5, not just EuroIV/V like the VW TDI's. In fact, even when EU makes the proposed new EuroVI standard effective in 2013, it will not be as tough as the current UST2B5 standard. The fear is that the cost of making a passenger diesel vehicle emissions compliant will require a precious metal-heavy catalyst and particulate trap whose cost will rival the Hybrid vehicle. Also, as the cost of batteries decreases based on having more suppliers available, Hybrids might become cheaper than diesels. Diesels will always be available in Europe with their reduced emissions standards but may not sell in the US market in HV sized numbers for some time to come. Just my 2 cents (but I'm sure tht Germancarfans info is worth at least 0.03Euros).
I'm hoping that Congress sees the light and shoots down the ignorant rules put forth by the EPA and CARB. The Holy Grail of zero emissions is what is driving the cost of cars & fuel beyond reason. What will happen is people will keep plugging along in their old beaters that pollute way more than a modern diesel does currently. The new rules will not help in the least with GHG or our usage of fossil fuel. It will only add to the problem and give a few of the wealthier folks a car they can point to and say "Look at Me I am the Jolly Green Giant". We need to back up a little and take some baby steps on emissions and some adult steps on fossil fuel usage. Without more diesel cars being sold we can never migrate to biodiesel, a far superior fuel to that near worthless ethanol.
2 Isn't this supposed to be about an accord diesel? :confuse:
Good question, yes we are all eagerly awaiting the Honda diesel to hit our showrooms. It seems they are trying to clean it up so that it can be sold in all 50 states. What is happening is the rules get changed on a regular basis. The EPA & CARB have no interest in fuel economy. Their whole purpose for being is to clean the exhaust coming from our vehicles. We could load the vehicle down with emissions crap to where a Civic only gets 18 MPG and that would be fine with EPA.
The EU by contrast is trying to reach a balance between clean emissions and good fuel economy. The EU jumped on the Honda diesel right away. Honda is finally making some progress selling cars in the UK with their fine diesel engine. We get the overly complex hyrids and the EU get good mileage. The Accord diesel is more than capable of 40+ MPG. If you drove it like some folks drive their hybrids you would get 50-60 MPG with an Accord diesel, less all the hybrid stuff to break and wear out.
I watched a recent episode of top gear and the usually euro loving host just cannot pull himself together after driving the 5 door civic diesel.
I read in passing the Civic diesel is not the Honda "made" cTDI,(as on the Honda (Accord, Am equivalent) but if I remember correctly an italian product or from izusu.
Civic Diesel uses the same Honda diesel that is found in Accord (and CR-V and FR-V... not sure if the latter two already are being offered in Europe with it, but were supposed to).