Come on, be real, is this topic really worth continuing other than for reasons of pure entertainment? Yes, I've owned domestic and import trucks, so what. Whatever you're happy with, just making a broad based accusation, to wit, _______ can't make a truck, well big deal. I'm more interested in the pros and cons of owning different vehicles, as well as associated technical problems, not someones judgemental opinion. We've all heard from the die hard Ford, Chevy, Dodge, etc fans. Each has it's own merits. Rather than just spouting off about why you feel you truck is better than mine, give us technical data, tests and reports, prove your point with facts and not just with your opinionated feelings.
You can't get good tech. data, tests, and reports here, because even Edmunds is biased against the toys. What happened to all the topics about problems with Chevy's? I'd like to know what others have done to resolve their vibration problems, but nearly every topic about the problems is gone? Why? These turds are only keeping what THEY want to hear about. I had a '97 T100 with the TRD blower, shocks, etc. Great truck. Never had a single problem. Wish that was true about my '00 Z71. If it wasn't a shaker, it too would be a great truck, but as it stands, it's only OK. The point is, this site IS entertainment, but it's not unbiased or even accurate. If you know of one that is, let us know.
Don't know of anyone who has completely gotten rid of vibrations. May have down to a minute amount but not totally gone...then again...once it's gone then they stop posting. So what's yours all about and why don't you post it in topic 1638? Have you read all of vibration I and II?
My personal belief is that I'm going to trade my '00 either for a C series GMC or a '01 1500 or 2500. Have test drove the four doors...completely different animal. Especially the ones coming out now...only problem is the $6K worth of mods....
I think all the forums have a ton of BS...the fun is in wading through it...you can try this link...the members seem a little more performance oriented but generally seem to know their stuff...
I took a Tundra for a short drive,rode and ran fine,but it's just the size of a Dakota,it's not a full size truck!The rust problem on the older trucks has me wondering too.A neighbor's son's approx 10 year old 4x4 has a homemade plywood bed,the other one was so rusty,the tailgate fell off.It rusted so fast I couldn't believe it. I was looking for a full size SUV or 4dr pickup.Ford was out of the competition,because,well,I hate Fords in general,and really dislike the F150/Expedition's looks.It's something about the round wheelwells,but I can't quite figure out what I hate about the looks.It looks to me like a toy unless it has huge tires on it.I did drive someones 5.4 equipped f150,and it drove ok,but I think a GM 1500 with the 5.3 is faster.My new one seems to be,and is getting stronger everytime I drive it. So,it came down to a Ram,or a Chevy/GMC.I ended up with the GMC,so far,all is perfect.If it holds up anywhere near as well as my 82 and 88 blazers did,I will be a very happy return customer.If it's a dud,well,there's Dodge.Or,who knows,maybe Nissan's "full size",will REALLY be full size!
Posted plenty in the different topics that were about the problem. Mine shakes at freeway speeds but only intermittantly. It might go 5 miles or 50, but once it starts, it won't stop until you're down below 50-55 mph again. It is so bad at times that it will make the CD skip. Think of driving over a series of driveway dips at speed. It is a common problem in so. Cal. because of the freeways here. But it isn't normal or right. The only other complaints are it's too low, shock placement is stupid, and plastic gas tank with no skidplate even with Z71!
This is for all you folks that don't seem to know what is quality truck and what is'nt.The Toyota Tundra is the finest truck ever built.All you Dodge lovers.Rams are the biggest and tallest,yet they have the wosrt ground clearance and lightest payload.They are load,handle poorly,and brake like a flinstone car.Toyota offers the only 32valve dual overhead cam V8 in the half ton segment.It drives like a caddilac,and takes off like a rocket.It is the only one you can actually have a conversation in.Why do you think Toyota offers the longest warranty.Toyota beat Fords Tritan V8 0 to 60.pulling a 1200 pound trailer.Full size truck owners are very loyal to there favorite makes.Take a ride in one they are numberone in everbodies tests for a reason.don't nock it until you try it.
You say : The Toyota Tundra is the finest truck ever built
What a can of worms you just opened. It isn't the finest. As for the 32 valve V8 big deal. What 4 cam engine didn't have great HP numbers????? Trucks are trucks and need TORQUE, besides the big 3 can easilt out HP and out torque da runt. If you ask me toyota copied Ford and turned the headlights upside down, but not to be too obvious they turned the grille upside down also. Who wants to pay full size price for a untested midsize? I guess O.J.'s lawyers were responsible for the ad campaign, its slick, but everyone knows the truth.
Glad you like your truck and have so much confidence in its reliability. I guess it just proves how much we all need to learn about the trucks available to us. I will personally try and educate myself on how much better the Toyota is than my Silverado. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
First, what the heck does having a million cams do for you, why does a single came GM engine (still has cam in the block too) produce more horses than the top of the line toyota?
as far as car like, that is a typical tundra driver, they want a car not a truck.
And as far as those tests that have toyotas beating the Big 3, if you look at the test vehicle the big 3 had their smallest V8's, while the toyota had the top of the line motor in their trucks, not to mention the Big 3 trucks were equipped with really tall gears like 3.53, instead of gears that can get you going like 4.10's which Chevy offers.
Now, tell me why the Tundra is so good when a Silverado can tow 2000 more lbs.?
And if it was the finest, it would be outselling Ford, Chevy or Dodge, which it is not even close to doing.
Please do....tell me how great that Toyota is. I can never get enough laughs in a day!
Glad you can settle for less and still be happy. Most people have much too high of expectations. Guess thats why so many more people buy the Chevy, Ford and Dodges. You must have a great deal of character to make such sacrifices.
You AMERICAN TRUCK OWNERS sure are witty. Why do you feel the need to trash other trucks? Just be happy with what makes you happy. Trashing other trucks just makes you look silly.
Just one correction on Tundra payload capacity. The 1,879 you quoted is for the regular cab and would match up against the Dakota'a 2,000 payload. The Tundra x-cab has a payload of 1,532 and would match up against the Dakota's 1,800 payload.
I KNOW THAT IT IS HARD FOR YOU BIG THREE LOVERS TO TAKE THE FACT THAT A JAPANESE COMPANY HAS OUT THOUGHT THE GOOD OL BOYS,BUT FACE IT THE TUDRA IS A BETTER 1/2 TON TRUCK.TRUE TUNDRA CAN'T MATCH UP WITH THE F-250 OR F-550 AND SO ON,BUT THAT WAS'NT THERE INTENTION.WAIT FOR A COUPLE MORE YEARS AND WE WILL SEE WHAT TOYOTA COMES UP WITH.
No, The Tundra outhauls the shakerado. Maybe we should call the shakerado "Da Junk". Since the Tundra outhauls it - instead of "full size" junk it is "compact" junk.
I've never posted here before but I do have to say that I agree with mviglianco1 and disagree with moparmad. The reason is this: Growing up, my family had nothing but Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler products. Time and time again they were in the shop being repaired. They consistently rusted too soon, rattled, and nickle and dimed us to death. I then had a 1985 escort which proceeded to blow a head gasket at 65,000 miles (this was after numerous other problems). I then purchased a used Honda and never looked back. It went 150,000 miles with NO problems, EVER! The engine was smoother, quieter, and the visibility was superior to any domestic we had ever owned. I would like to see the percentage of those who bash Honda's and Toyota's, etc. that have ever owned one. This "buy American" BS is just that. Take a look around you and tell me just how much "American" you buy. I know, the small things like clothes, computers, and appliances don't matter because they're small ticket items whereas a vehicle is not. If we continue to "buy American" just because it's the thing to do, then in 20 years, we will be farther behind than we are right now. Say what you will, but I have had both and I know first hand that domestic vehicles in no way can match the quality and reliability of particularly Japanese and German nameplates. Supporting mediocrity only contributes to it!
Domestic vehicle quality has improved tremendously in the last 20 years. I have no reservation about supporting "domestic mediocrity", based on my experience.
After my Volvo went only 120,000 before the block cracked, and my Honda went only 117,000 before an engine rebuild, I decided to reward Chrysler by purchasing their thoughtfully designed 1984 minivan. After 392,000 miles, to date, on the original engine, clutch and transmission (with absolutely no repairs), I didn't hesitate to return to purchase a '00 Dakota Quad Cab this year.
anyway, it looks like bamatundra is still claiming the tundra outhauls the Silverado yet this silverado has about 2,000 more lbs of towing capacity?
Secondly, to tinindiana, first, if you look at a new Silverado the Engine Transsmission are made in USA, and if you happen to take a look at the front end (I was lifting a silverado) you would see all those parts say Made in USA right on them, wow! And the UAW is one of the largest Unions in America so obviously a lot of Cars are made right here, like the majority of silverado's. BTW GM is building a new SUV plant in Michigan (have to go fin the article for more details)
As far as [non-permissible content removed] cars in my family, I have relatives that own a 87 Subaru (on its second engine with 136,000 on it), a 88-90 around there Toyota 4wd wagon, that is starting to burn oil at 142,000, and he just replaced water pump, rest of my family buy's only American
oh and the relatives that own these [non-permissible content removed] cars have since purchased a Chevy p/u and Ford p/u as their second and third cars respectively.
As far as Demositc Mediocrity,
lets talk about my immediate family new car history
83' Ranger with 165,000, original belts and hoses, only thing replaced has been ignition boxed, truck has been used to tow. No oil burn
87' Escort, 192,000, no oil burn, replaced Fuel Pump (boy those electronic ones are a pain)
90 Ford Bronco, 140,000 have replaced anything yet, used off-road and to tow
98' Escort, 36,000, to close to tell yet but no quality probelms yet!
My truck that has been in the family since new, 81' Chevy C10, 326,000, second engine put in in 96', Original transmission, never rebuilt used for towing, tree service business and daily driver. No RUST
In buying one of the imports, a person agrees to pay the additional money up front as well as higher cost of parts that will undoubtedly break eventually. Imports are not indestructable. Most replacement parts for an import are at least double what a domestic one costs and often times it is the same parts made by the same company.
You take a chance with any of them. What a person must ask themselves is how much is a "possible" reduction in risk worth in initial cost and higher maintenance? I don't see a noticeable reduction in risk with the imports, but some say different. Either way, you end up paying more for the import overall. That is just plain facts. Also, for every import sucess story, there are is a success story for the domestic vehicles. I would say moreso because the domestics make more vehicles. Same goes for reported problems. There will be more reported with domestics because they make and sell 15 to 1 over the imports.
My 83 S10 had 300,000 on it and I wish I didnt sell it, it wouldve been one heck of a grocery getter, but I needed the $$$. I just purchased my '99 and what a difference!
My sister bought into that import garbage and had to get a new trans on her camry at 120k. So much for reliability.
That must be where they make the money, replacement parts, compare any big 3 part to any [non-permissible content removed] part, USA 1 import ZERO.
Even though that's low mileage for a transmission to go out on an import vehicle, it still went longer than what a domestic one would go! My cousin's Dodge Ram's tranny went at around 60,000, don't they all?
Obviously, all of our judgements are based on previous positive or negative experiences with either American or foreign vehicles. I'm currently in the market for a pickup and have narrowed it down to the Tundra and F-150. I have to admit, the Ford makes a great truck. I know several people that own them including my Dad and they all love them. I was just so frustrated before and am gun shy at the thought of having problems if I got the F-150. However, I know that by selling some 800,000 trucks last year, they're doing something right. I would appreciate insight to this matter - I try to be an open minded person, but when it comes to spending $20,000+ on a truck, I can't help but revert back to the old days with my 85' escort and remember what a nightmare it was. I need positive F-150 stories!
A Friend fo mine bought a 91' F-150. Biggest mistake of his life. power window trcks died. windshield mysteriously cracked tape player quit transmission died in less than 80k he bought this truck new and has since sold the piece. Thank goodness I never bit on a F'd Over Rebuilt Dodge. As a proud Chevy owner i'd suggest against the F-150 and go for the [non-permissible content removed]. sadly enough to say.
I have owned all makes of truck in my lifetime, even the imports. There are bad ones in all makes. It is a gamble when you buy ANY new vehicle whether the one you buy is a problem or not, even with imports.
Your blanket statements are uneducated personal experiences and have nothing to do with actual statistics of the possibility to get a bad vehicle in any make.
I have had bad Chevy trucks, Ford trucks, and even import trucks. If everyone used your logic, pretty soon they would not be able to buy any make of vehicle and would be stuck walking.
Please be careful about handing out personal experiences as factual evidence. They are night and day.
As an owner of a fleet of trucks--that actually work rather than pull a fishing boat twice a year--your assertions are off base and unfounded. Anyone can end up with a lemon and your comment about "rebuilt dodge" only further displays your ignorance.
Thanks for the comments. However, I'm confused on your statement about my "logic". I did not attempt to state any "factual" information, strictly my experiences on both makes, American and foreign. The whole problem stems to management and how our American big 3 operate vs. the Japanese, in particular. If you have ever heard of a man named Edward Deming, you will understand what I am saying. The Japanese have much to thank him for being that he is the one that turned them around starting in the 1950's with new management philosophies known as the "14 points" and drastically increased their quality and productivity. He was an interesting man..died just a few years ago and was working up until that time. I think he was about 96. Anyway, his teachings took many years but has certainly paid off. He also worked with the American companies too but we were not as receptive...our typical arrogant, me me me approach. I think this is one of our problems - we want want everything now even though to improve to a level where we are very capable of obtaining, it will take much time and hard work. I'm a proud American just like the next person, but I feel I'm open minded enough to admit that we are not as strong as we could be in the auto industry.
Sorry guys. I directed my comments to the wrong person and I wasn't the one being spoken to anyway...had to grab my head out of my butt! Thanks for the input "the 123".
I know all too well about Deming and the "Total Quality Management" concepts, the "Just in Time" concepts, "Re-engineering the Corporation" and all the crap. I have lived it, breathed it, and tasted it for many years. Just another band wagon of crapola that wasted time and energy.
When it all comes down too it, principles like Deming's built Japan up and made it all it is today. The Japanese had very little part in the reputation they have for quality today. It was the hard work of the Americans that built Japan back up after they tore them down during the war.
None of this has beans to do with the topic at hand.
were a POS. By following the philosophy of Deming, the Japanese turned out quality products. It is only through hard work and devotion to these philosophies that Japanese products now enjoy recognition for being made of high quality. To say that "the Japanese had very little part in the reputation they have for quality today" is incorrect. The Japanese recognized the value of quality and committed their entire way of thinking to Deming's teachings.
Yes, the Americans played a major role in rebuilding Japan after the war...they were not responsible for Deming's decision to go to Japan nor the Japanese acceptance of his philosophies.
Yes, it has to do with a topic that says "Toyota can't make Trucks Thats for sure!!! " As Toyota has earned the Deming Award for quality, therefore rebutting the topic. If you look closely at Toyota's marketing...they are building trucks to sell in the categories that are popular which are the 1/2 tons and compacts. Whether their 1/2 tons fit your needs does not matter. What matters is that they have sold trucks in a category that they have not done as successfully before. If someone buys a Toyota Tundra, that is one less person buying a full sized Big Three. Toyota is chipping away at the Big Three and in my opinion not doing too bad a job. BTW, I own two GM products. A '00 Silverado and a '00 Denali. I support American products as long as they fill my needs. Maybe if GM had adopted Demings philosophies, you wouldn't have dumped your Silverado....
You may be correct about GM and their not using the Demings Philosophies. I don't know. I DO know that Ford has used the "Just in Time" and "Total Quality Management" principles longer than Toyota has. It was a case study I did in my Masters program in college a few years back. What I intended from what I said is that the domestic auto makers have used the same concepts as Japan for years. Maybe not ALL of them and maybe not in every process, but where they worked and improved quality/decreased costs, they have been used. Japan has not done, and still does not do anything any different than the domestics have done. This I KNOW for a FACT!
I dumped my Silverado because of first model year quality issues that ALL makes experience in some degree. Toyota has them, GM has them, Ford has them, and Dodge has them. It is my own fault to have bought a first model year truck. Ford has worked the issues out of their model change now. Almost 4 years later, their trucks are pretty bullet proof. The Silverado will be too....eventually. That doesn't make the Silverado a bad truck, and it doesn't make the Toyota a better truck. Already the Toyota has had it's own bugs to deal with. Just because you don't hear about as many on these boards, doesn't mean they don't exist. Toyota sells about 1/15th the amount of trucks sold, so you will hear less problems from them.
I still stand behind what I said. Japan only is today what it is, from all the Americans did to build them back up, and from all the free hand outs we continually give them in interest free Enterprise loans, gov't subsidies, and the like. If the US was bottle fed for over 50 years, we would be better off too!
allowed to have a military until recently...so guess who picked up the tab for their defense while being locked out of their trade practices. Sometimes you just have to wonder if brains are a prerequisite for a politician...
I noticed that people will ask if that Toyota, Honda, or Nissan is made in the USA or Japan...Japan being the preferred origin point for manufacturing regardless of pricing due to tariffs. Their belief is that anything made in the USA, even using parts from Japan, does not have the same quality as assembled in Japan. I guess the best example of this is the movie Gung Ho. One of the things that the Japanese companies do differently from the US is the daily exercise as witnessed in the movie. This was discontinued only recently. In the movie, you could also see the differences in company attitude though exaggerated, one could not help but notice the attitude of the American union workers and their me, me, me attitude versus the company oriented attitude of the Japanese workers.
The current economic depression that Japan is emerging from has shaken the large manufacturers such as Toyota to reevaluate their Theory Z based system. They found out that they couldn't guarantee lifelong job security. Without that, the basis of their quality control programs were doomed to failure.
Bottom line...Americans thought the war was over in 1945...the Japanese corporate philosophy was based on the Book of Five Rings by MM. Almost similar to the Art of War by Sun Tsu. The American car manufacturers were under seige and didn't even know it until it was almost too late. It was at that point that they sought out Deming. Is the war over? Don't know...while I agree that Japan had overwhelming support from the US, I still disagree with your statement that "The Japanese had very little part in the reputation they have for quality today. " Ask any line worker up to the CEO of any major Japanese Corporation on the effort it takes to win a Deming Award.
Not support American made products...I most certainly do...2 GM trucks made in Indiana and Texas...plus 5 Ford vans (company owned)and 1 '91 Nissan truck that refuses to die. If you want to question someone about supporting US made products...talk to GM who opens factories in Mexico and Canada to avoid paying UNION workers and thus build cheaper vehicles...
Yuppie...think not. My personal vehicle that I drive every day is a black on black '00 Silverado. The '00 Denali is the wife's choice. I would rather drive a Vette or a Viper or at least a Yukon XL 2500 (hate the Tahoes). Like I said, I bought it but don't drive it. I thought it was pretty lame to buy a '00 Denali based on the old C/K with the 5.7. Actually, yuppies drive Escalades...
I never said that the Japanese build better cars..My post said "Japan being the preferred origin point for manufacturing regardless of pricing due to tariffs. Their belief is that anything made in the USA, even using parts from Japan, does not have the same quality as assembled in Japan." Note in the second sentence states "their belief" doesn't say my belief.
U.S. companies are profit driven. How do you build profit? either charge more or cut costs...GM has done both...they have raised the prices of Yukons, Tahoes, Silverado's to unheard of prices...and yet open factories in Mexico. Go figure that one...and while you are at it...write a letter to the CEO of GM about supporting Americans...
The only point that I was making with dbhull was that he did not credit the Japanese for the quality of their products today, which in my opinion is incorrect.
I'm sure it may seem that I do not support American made products when actually I was not agreeing with dbhull initial post. BTW, buying American is fine but it is not always possible because finding 100% made in USA is just about impossible. Actually when adding my company and personal vehicles, I have spent close to $170,000 on American made vehicles in the last couple of years...how much did you spend on American made vehicles?
sorry for flying off the handle but I have researched this so much and I'm worried about the future of this country, and being patriotic like I am I would like to see everyone believe that Americans make the best products
Your understanding of global economics is creative, but not quite so accurate. Blaming the "un-American hippies" for the increase in foreign car sales is interesting, but let's look at what else was happening at that time.
Can anyone say "ARAB OIL EMBARGO", which sparked gasoline lines, odd-n-even gas buying days based on your license plate #, which led to heightened interest in fuel efficient cars. Couple this when the BIG 3 were making a plethora of merely adequate automobiles (the Ford Fairmont, the Cadillac Cimmaron, the Chrysler K-car etc, etc) with hit or miss quality control.
Imports offered a new choice for consumers, which decimated the U.S. auto industry, even putting Chrysler on the brink of bankruptcy, needing a government bail out. Believe it or not, this carnage ended up being GOOD FOR THE US AUTO INDUSTRY! They were forced to revitalize their plants and vastly improve the quality of the product that they were turning out.
Without the import threat, we would not have the fine offering of domestic vehicles that we enjoy now, nor would our U.S. auto industry be as globally competitive. If we want to have a thriving U.S. auto industry employing lots of Americans and boosting our economy, they need to put out a great product.
Without your (as you said) "stupid [non-permissible content removed]", the U.S. auto industry would not be performing as well as it currently is, unemployment would be greater, and our overall economy including the stock market would suffer. Simply by all Americans adopting a "buy American only" philosophy is actually a great way to destroy the American economy in the long run, because we will become globally unviable as our manufacturers become complacent to churn out merely adequate products.
No need to worry about our economy, as we are making lot's of awesome cars, and comsumers have better choices with the big three than ever before.
I should have said the Big 3 are making better cars than ever before, except Jeep which still seems to have trouble putting the words quality and control into the same sentence.
Comments
Has the big T found a cure for the vibrations yet?
If so what is the solution?
Rich
My personal belief is that I'm going to trade my '00 either for a C series GMC or a '01 1500 or 2500. Have test drove the four doors...completely different animal. Especially the ones coming out now...only problem is the $6K worth of mods....
http://www.pacific-audio.com/performance/discussion.html
I was looking for a full size SUV or 4dr pickup.Ford was out of the competition,because,well,I hate Fords in general,and really dislike the F150/Expedition's looks.It's something about the round wheelwells,but I can't quite figure out what I hate about the looks.It looks to me like a toy unless it has huge tires on it.I did drive someones 5.4 equipped f150,and it drove ok,but I think a GM 1500 with the 5.3 is faster.My new one seems to be,and is getting stronger everytime I drive it.
So,it came down to a Ram,or a Chevy/GMC.I ended up with the GMC,so far,all is perfect.If it holds up anywhere near as well as my 82 and 88 blazers did,I will be a very happy return customer.If it's a dud,well,there's Dodge.Or,who knows,maybe Nissan's "full size",will REALLY be full size!
Tundra is the finest truck ever built
What a can of worms you just opened. It isn't the finest. As for the 32 valve V8 big deal. What 4 cam engine didn't have great HP numbers????? Trucks are trucks and need TORQUE, besides the big 3 can easilt out HP and out torque da runt.
If you ask me toyota copied Ford and turned the headlights upside down, but not to be too obvious they turned the grille upside down also. Who wants to pay full size price for a untested midsize? I guess O.J.'s lawyers were responsible for the ad campaign, its slick, but everyone knows the truth.
Dan.
Flynnb said - "It drives like a Cadillac" - nuff said.
as far as car like, that is a typical tundra driver, they want a car not a truck.
And as far as those tests that have toyotas beating the Big 3, if you look at the test vehicle the big 3 had their smallest V8's, while the toyota had the top of the line motor in their trucks, not to mention the Big 3 trucks were equipped with really tall gears like 3.53, instead of gears that can get you going like 4.10's which Chevy offers.
Now, tell me why the Tundra is so good when a Silverado can tow 2000 more lbs.?
And if it was the finest, it would be outselling Ford, Chevy or Dodge, which it is not even close to doing.
Now lets look at base 4wd Supercab, Tundra and Dakota
Dakota Stock Motor: 175hp V6 @ 230 ft lbs torque
Tundra Stock Motor: 190hp V6 @ 220 ft lbs torque
LOL Dakota has more torque than tundra!
Max Payload for Dakota=1800 lbs, Tundra=1680
Looks like the Tundra is not only not fullsize, it is sub compact pickup.
wow way to go toyota, lol what a hunk of junk
Glad you can settle for less and still be happy. Most people have much too high of expectations. Guess thats why so many more people buy the Chevy, Ford and Dodges. You must have a great deal of character to make such sacrifices.
Rich
not be satisfied with ride quality the same as a
cement truck!<<<
Unless you wanted a truck that could actually haul cement?
The Tundra x-cab has a payload of 1,532 and would match up against the Dakota's 1,800 payload.
In all match ups the Dakota out hauls the Tundra.
The Tundra actually out hauls the Quad Cab. The Quad Cab is only 1450 lbs max payload.
http://carpoint.msn.com/Vip/Specifications/Dodge/Dakota/2000.asp
We need a Shakerado vs. Dakota topic. They are more comparable.
After my Volvo went only 120,000 before the block cracked, and my Honda went only 117,000 before an engine rebuild, I decided to reward Chrysler by purchasing their thoughtfully designed 1984 minivan. After 392,000 miles, to date, on the original engine, clutch and transmission (with absolutely no repairs), I didn't hesitate to return to purchase a '00 Dakota Quad Cab this year.
anyway, it looks like bamatundra is still claiming the tundra outhauls the Silverado yet this silverado has about 2,000 more lbs of towing capacity?
Secondly, to tinindiana, first, if you look at a new Silverado the Engine Transsmission are made in USA, and if you happen to take a look at the front end (I was lifting a silverado) you would see all those parts say Made in USA right on them, wow! And the UAW is one of the largest Unions in America so obviously a lot of Cars are made right here, like the majority of silverado's. BTW GM is building a new SUV plant in Michigan (have to go fin the article for more details)
As far as [non-permissible content removed] cars in my family, I have relatives that own a 87 Subaru (on its second engine with 136,000 on it), a 88-90 around there Toyota 4wd wagon, that is starting to burn oil at 142,000, and he just replaced water pump, rest of my family buy's only American
oh and the relatives that own these [non-permissible content removed] cars have since purchased a Chevy p/u and Ford p/u as their second and third cars respectively.
As far as Demositc Mediocrity,
lets talk about my immediate family new car history
83' Ranger with 165,000, original belts and hoses, only thing replaced has been ignition boxed, truck has been used to tow. No oil burn
87' Escort, 192,000, no oil burn, replaced Fuel Pump (boy those electronic ones are a pain)
90 Ford Bronco, 140,000 have replaced anything yet, used off-road and to tow
98' Escort, 36,000, to close to tell yet but no quality probelms yet!
My truck that has been in the family since new, 81' Chevy C10, 326,000, second engine put in in 96', Original transmission, never rebuilt
used for towing, tree service business and daily driver. No RUST
You take a chance with any of them. What a person must ask themselves is how much is a "possible" reduction in risk worth in initial cost and higher maintenance? I don't see a noticeable reduction in risk with the imports, but some say different. Either way, you end up paying more for the import overall. That is just plain facts. Also, for every import sucess story, there are is a success story for the domestic vehicles. I would say moreso because the domestics make more vehicles. Same goes for reported problems. There will be more reported with domestics because they make and sell 15 to 1 over the imports.
My sister bought into that import garbage and had to get a new trans on her camry at 120k. So much for reliability.
That must be where they make the money, replacement parts, compare any big 3 part to any [non-permissible content removed] part, USA 1 import ZERO.
I thought Chrysler's minivans were automatic?
power window trcks died.
windshield mysteriously cracked
tape player quit
transmission died in less than 80k
he bought this truck new and has since sold the piece.
Thank goodness I never bit on a F'd Over Rebuilt Dodge.
As a proud Chevy owner i'd suggest against the F-150 and go for the [non-permissible content removed].
sadly enough to say.
Your blanket statements are uneducated personal experiences and have nothing to do with actual statistics of the possibility to get a bad vehicle in any make.
I have had bad Chevy trucks, Ford trucks, and even import trucks. If everyone used your logic, pretty soon they would not be able to buy any make of vehicle and would be stuck walking.
Please be careful about handing out personal experiences as factual evidence. They are night and day.
As an owner of a fleet of trucks--that actually work rather than pull a fishing boat twice a year--your assertions are off base and unfounded. Anyone can end up with a lemon and your comment about "rebuilt dodge" only further displays your ignorance.
When it all comes down too it, principles like Deming's built Japan up and made it all it is today. The Japanese had very little part in the reputation they have for quality today. It was the hard work of the Americans that built Japan back up after they tore them down during the war.
None of this has beans to do with the topic at hand.
Yes, the Americans played a major role in rebuilding Japan after the war...they were not responsible for Deming's decision to go to Japan nor the Japanese acceptance of his philosophies.
Yes, it has to do with a topic that says "Toyota can't make Trucks Thats for sure!!! " As Toyota has earned the Deming Award for quality, therefore rebutting the topic. If you look closely at Toyota's marketing...they are building trucks to sell in the categories that are popular which are the 1/2 tons and compacts. Whether their 1/2 tons fit your needs does not matter. What matters is that they have sold trucks in a category that they have not done as successfully before. If someone buys a Toyota Tundra, that is one less person buying a full sized Big Three. Toyota is chipping away at the Big Three and in my opinion not doing too bad a job. BTW, I own two GM products. A '00 Silverado and a '00 Denali. I support American products as long as they fill my needs. Maybe if GM had adopted Demings philosophies, you wouldn't have dumped your Silverado....
I dumped my Silverado because of first model year quality issues that ALL makes experience in some degree. Toyota has them, GM has them, Ford has them, and Dodge has them. It is my own fault to have bought a first model year truck. Ford has worked the issues out of their model change now. Almost 4 years later, their trucks are pretty bullet proof. The Silverado will be too....eventually. That doesn't make the Silverado a bad truck, and it doesn't make the Toyota a better truck. Already the Toyota has had it's own bugs to deal with. Just because you don't hear about as many on these boards, doesn't mean they don't exist. Toyota sells about 1/15th the amount of trucks sold, so you will hear less problems from them.
I still stand behind what I said. Japan only is today what it is, from all the Americans did to build them back up, and from all the free hand outs we continually give them in interest free Enterprise loans, gov't subsidies, and the like.
If the US was bottle fed for over 50 years, we would be better off too!
I noticed that people will ask if that Toyota, Honda, or Nissan is made in the USA or Japan...Japan being the preferred origin point for manufacturing regardless of pricing due to tariffs. Their belief is that anything made in the USA, even using parts from Japan, does not have the same quality as assembled in Japan. I guess the best example of this is the movie Gung Ho. One of the things that the Japanese companies do differently from the US is the daily exercise as witnessed in the movie. This was discontinued only recently. In the movie, you could also see the differences in company attitude though exaggerated, one could not help but notice the attitude of the American union workers and their me, me, me attitude versus the company oriented attitude of the Japanese workers.
The current economic depression that Japan is emerging from has shaken the large manufacturers such as Toyota to reevaluate their Theory Z based system. They found out that they couldn't guarantee lifelong job security. Without that, the basis of their quality control programs were doomed to failure.
Bottom line...Americans thought the war was over in 1945...the Japanese corporate philosophy was based on the Book of Five Rings by MM. Almost similar to the Art of War by Sun Tsu. The American car manufacturers were under seige and didn't even know it until it was almost too late. It was at that point that they sought out Deming. Is the war over? Don't know...while I agree that Japan had overwhelming support from the US, I still disagree with your statement that "The Japanese had very little part in the
reputation they have for quality today. " Ask any line worker up to the CEO of any major Japanese Corporation on the effort it takes to win a Deming Award.
Not support American made products...I most certainly do...2 GM trucks made in Indiana and Texas...plus 5 Ford vans (company owned)and 1 '91 Nissan truck that refuses to die. If you want to question someone about supporting US made products...talk to GM who opens factories in Mexico and Canada to avoid paying UNION workers and thus build cheaper vehicles...
Yuppie...think not. My personal vehicle that I drive every day is a black on black '00 Silverado. The '00 Denali is the wife's choice. I would rather drive a Vette or a Viper or at least a Yukon XL 2500 (hate the Tahoes). Like I said, I bought it but don't drive it. I thought it was pretty lame to buy a '00 Denali based on the old C/K with the 5.7. Actually, yuppies drive Escalades...
I never said that the Japanese build better cars..My post said "Japan being the preferred origin point for manufacturing regardless of pricing due to tariffs. Their belief is that anything made in the USA, even using parts from Japan, does not have the same quality as assembled in Japan." Note in the second sentence states "their belief" doesn't say my belief.
U.S. companies are profit driven. How do you build profit? either charge more or cut costs...GM has done both...they have raised the prices of Yukons, Tahoes, Silverado's to unheard of prices...and yet open factories in Mexico. Go figure that one...and while you are at it...write a letter to the CEO of GM about supporting Americans...
The only point that I was making with dbhull was that he did not credit the Japanese for the quality of their products today, which in my opinion is incorrect.
I'm sure it may seem that I do not support American made products when actually I was not agreeing with dbhull initial post. BTW, buying American is fine but it is not always possible because finding 100% made in USA is just about impossible. Actually when adding my company and personal vehicles, I have spent close to $170,000 on American made vehicles in the last couple of years...how much did you spend on American made vehicles?
The Chrysler Minivans were available with stick shift transmissions from 1984 to 1995, but only in the short wheelbase.
anyway
what next?
Can anyone say "ARAB OIL EMBARGO", which sparked gasoline lines, odd-n-even gas buying days based on your license plate #, which led to heightened interest in fuel efficient cars. Couple this when the BIG 3 were making a plethora of merely adequate automobiles (the Ford Fairmont, the Cadillac Cimmaron, the Chrysler K-car etc, etc) with hit or miss quality control.
Imports offered a new choice for consumers, which decimated the U.S. auto industry, even putting Chrysler on the brink of bankruptcy, needing a government bail out. Believe it or not, this carnage ended up being GOOD FOR THE US AUTO INDUSTRY! They were forced to revitalize their plants and vastly improve the quality of the product that they were turning out.
Without the import threat, we would not have the fine offering of domestic vehicles that we enjoy now, nor would our U.S. auto industry be as globally competitive. If we want to have a thriving U.S. auto industry employing lots of Americans and boosting our economy, they need to put out a great product.
Without your (as you said) "stupid [non-permissible content removed]", the U.S. auto industry would not be performing as well as it currently is, unemployment would be greater, and our overall economy including the stock market would suffer. Simply by all Americans adopting a "buy American only" philosophy is actually a great way to destroy the American economy in the long run, because we will become globally unviable as our manufacturers become complacent to churn out merely adequate products.
No need to worry about our economy, as we are making lot's of awesome cars, and comsumers have better choices with the big three than ever before.