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Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous
anonymousposts
Member Posts: 3,802
in General
It has come to my attention that I am not the only one who goes car shopping more often than I go clothes shopping. Anyone have any ideas why?
Maybe we can form a support group to talk each other out of continuing the madness.
Maybe we can form a support group to talk each other out of continuing the madness.
6
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Is the Accord V6 with 6-speed costlier than the 5-sp auto ?
Still, I'm going to hold out as long as I can. The last thing I want right now is a car payment. Plus, they ran into some problems in the construction of my garage, so I'm sure it's going to rack up the price. When they drilled the holes for the foundation, up from the ground came a' bubblin' something, but it wasn't crude, black gold, or Texas Tea!
So that makes it 18 cars total for me. We are taking a break for the next 4 years, even if the ZX4 is almost paid for. All our 3 vehicles seemed well suited for their driving duties, so they will not be replaced anytime soon. It was exciting buying cars almost every year, but we got two small kids to raise for the next decade and longer. Also sales tax over here is 7.75%, by my not buying as often I think I will save $10,000 in taxes over 15 years.
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I'm with you -- 160HP with a 5-speed might be all one needs. If only I could convince my wife to go along with me!
anon, since you seem to be the resident Honda expert, is there a difference in the EPA numbers for the V6 stick vs. auto?
Was it leaching field?? :sick:
My concrete guy has a county engineer lined up, hopefully coming out tomorrow to give us guidance on where to go from here, and what needs to be done to pass inspection. Hey, wait a minute...wasn't Mr. Kimball on "Green Acres" a county engineer? Uh-oh, I might be screwed! :surprise:
Oh yeah, there is an old septic tank in the yard, but it was disabled when the sewer came through back in 1978. I'm thinking (hoping) that the last of it has finally collapsed and been filled in. At least none of the dump trucks, back hoes, or tractor trailers that have been in my yard have hit it yet! :shades:
My E430 and ML500 both have tiptronic.... so, I can "kinda" shift like a manual if I want and NO clutch!
Mark
I assume the numbers on the 2006 six-speed sedan will be the same as the 2005 six-speed coupe (the numbers were identical on the coupe and sedan for 2005):
Automatic 21/30
Six-speed 20/30
Looks like there's no discernable mileage advantage to the stick shift--nor is it cheaper to purchase, although it should be cheaper to maintain, if you don't wear out the clutch.
If the ratio spread isn't greater the purpose is somewhat defeated.
I've never felt the need for another gear during acceleration with a 5-speed, but I've had lots of cars that I wish had another gear on top....
regards,
kyfdx
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Doesn't the Corvette do it your way with an ultra low 6th? Maybe a Viper, too? Do any normal cars have a super-overdrive? (sorry I reused the complicated technical term "super-overdrive")
It has a fairly short axle though, of 4.44:1, so in 5th gear your OTGR (Overall Top Gear Ratio) is around 2.30:1. Fairly tall and loafy, but not "super tall". For instance, back in the late 70's and early 80's, bigger GM cars with 3-speed automatics often had 2.41:1 and even 2.14:1 axles. My '79 NYer has a 2.45:1 rear, and in '81 Chrysler switched all of their V-8 RWD non-police cars to tall 2.26:1 axles.
In the 80's, when 4-speed overdrive trannies started to become popular, family-type cars with the Chevy 305 usually had a 2.56:1 rear, while cars with the Olds 307 usually had a 2.73:1. Overdrive gear on that tranny though is 0.667:1, giving you an OTGR of 1.71:1 on the Chevy and 1.82:1 on the Olds engine. I'd imagine that would be considered pretty tall.
Alternatively, with a manual-shift that had the same final-drive, it would feel sluggish.... Not that I would care.... that is what a manual is for... to shift when you need it!!
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Oh, I should point out the guy's an engineer. And a bit of a hyper-miler. But still, how many people buy a Maxima with a stick for fuel economy? :confuse:
I believe Honda's website gives the same mileage numbers for auto and stick for Accord V-6? And you get the extra sporty stuff on the V-6 MT for the same price as the automatic that doesn't have it.
I am with the crowd above though - with the gas prices this high, I would take the extra 5 points (rated 26/34) you get by going with a 4-cyl 5-speed, which is up 6 to 166 hp this year, BTW. :-)
I am VERY good at getting myself in trouble with fast cars. :-(
Gotta buy the slower model just to save the speeding ticket penalties.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's the main reason I think I'm gonna buy an Element over the G35 when the Ody lease is up. I can't keep my Civic in legal speed ranges. There's no way I'd be able to drive a G35 and keep my driviing privelege. They really are tempting me though. i saw a cammercial with $227 lease payments on the Gee. Why don't they just park one in my driveway and leave it?
i'm going tonight to take delivery of an '03 Lincoln LS.
Giving up my Z.
I'll still have 4 cars on the stable .... for now. This is mostly a money move. The LS is cheaper (go figure). If money is still a problem down the line, I'll have to sell the volvo.
Fairly steady: '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel, '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP / Rotating stock, but currently: '92 325i, '97 Alto Works, '11 Mini Cooper S
And as far as shifting too much ... only if the engine is too whimpy for a 6-speed. A car like the Z has plenty of torque that I am able to keep it in 3rd gear through most traffic jams (as long as i don't have to come to a complete stop).
Fairly steady: '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel, '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP / Rotating stock, but currently: '92 325i, '97 Alto Works, '11 Mini Cooper S
But, as automatic trannies get more speeds/more R&D, and better TCM tuning, you'll find that, not only do they perform better than a stick (no missed shifts/shifting too early or late), their mileage is also getting better, to the point, in some cases, where they are in the same neighborhood as the manuals... there is still the weight penalty of an auto, but no clutch to replace.
Wonder if we'll see autostick or tapshift replace the manual alltogether? Wouldn't surprise me. But that would probably be available only on the top-end models (i.e. like Pontiac did with the last GTP), rather than the base/low-end models...
--Robert
I found myself at least one gear higher than I would expect to be most of the time, and shifting at 4K rather than 3K just because the engine revved up so quickly. I believe the top gear RPMs were about the same as my 5 speed maxima was, about 2600-2700 @60. Much shorter than really needed for comfortable cruising.
IMO, the TSX gearing could be dropped at least 10% and it would still be quick and fun, but more relaxed and economical too.
I agree that 6th should be a cruiser gear. If I need to accelerate quick or hit a big hill, I can drop down to 5th. I buy a stick, so I must not mind shifting, plus the way it is now you whift all the time around town anyway!
As nice as the TSX was, if I decided to get something like that, I would probably save the 5K+ and get an Accord EXL 4 cyl 5 speed. Pretty much the same powerband up to 5K (which I rarely exceed anyway), but taller gearing and better mileage, and darn near all the same goodies.
That is, if the new CIvic doesn't push all my buttons for 18K, but there would still be those features missing (XM built in, power seat, etc.).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Maybe they are trying to promote their hybrids by lowering the mileage of the gas only cars.
When I had my Accord ('93 DX with a 5-speed, 125HP), I never felt it didn't have enough get up and go, even here in Colorado.
My Focus cruises at 70-75MPH at about 3100 RPM's on the tach; the wife's VUE, OTOH (V6 with a 5-speed auto) does the same speed at about 2200 RPM's.
My Intrepid hits 2700 rpm in top gear round 81 mph (at least, doing the math...I know it hits 2000@60, 2500@75, and 3000@90)
The electronic governor kicks in at 112 MPH on my car (came with S-rated tires) and that is about 5500 RPM in 4th gear, 1K short of redline. I can have all the fun I want in gears 1-4 and have a tall 5th gear for fuel economy. Even a SE with a governor of 130 MPH still doesn’t need 5th gear to be so short. Too bad Nissan didn't feel that way.
Can some of these cars keep their speed at a lower rpm? Sure. Could a 100 hp 4-cyl keep its cruising speed at the same rpms as a 400 hp 8-cyl? Not likely.
Fairly steady: '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel, '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP / Rotating stock, but currently: '92 325i, '97 Alto Works, '11 Mini Cooper S
And a TSX with the 2.4 has just as much hp as my '00 Intrepid, although it has about 24 less ft-lb of torque (166 versus 190). So it has 87% of the torque. And 93% of the weight (3230 lb versus 3471, according to Edmund's). So I would think that a TSX would be able to get by with a taller top gear, to give you better fuel economy in certain situations. You could always downshift if you needed the power.
I experiment by seeing how it pulls from lower revs (say 1800K in top gear, which may be around 40 mph). If it pulls strong, it doesn't need to be running like a sewing machine at 60 mph.
My tC is a worse offender. The 2.4l Camry motor is basically a torque lump, but they have it geared like a Miata. No way i heck it needs to be turning 3K at 66 MPH. You could drop the revs at 75 by 1,000, and it would still never need to be downshifted to pull hills or pass.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It's been a while, but I could have sworn it was higher than 22-2300 rpm at 75. 2700 maybe? Anyway, for whatever reason, Nissans and Mazdas as a whole get worse fuel mileage than Hondas and Toyotas. The highway rating on the 4cyl/4-speed automatic Altima is 29, compared to the Accord and Camry's 34 (the Camry/Accord have an extra gear in the automatic). The Mazda6's mileage is nothing to write home about, either. You can make the same comparison with similar results among the Civic, Corolla, Sentra, and Mazda3.
When I had a (gasoline) Volkswagen, people always asked if I got good mileage. From what I can gather looking at the fueleconomy.gov site, the only thing that VW has produced in the past two decades that got "good" mileage compared to its competitors are their diesels.
I have only driven an automatic TSX, which felt slow, although it probably wasn't objectively slow. The interior was kind of chintzy.
Too bad Nissan didn't give the 4-cyl a 5-speed automatic. The 3.5 V-6 has a 5-speed auto, and it gets 30 on the EPA's highway cycle! 1mpg BETTER than the 4-cyl! That ain't right! :mad:
You want to hear a REALLY bad case of over-revving, though? My buddy's '98 Tracker, with a 1.6 4-cyl and 3-speed automatic, pulls something like 3500 rpm at 55 mph! No wonder that thing always sounds like it's going fast, even when it isn't! 55 mph sure SEEMS a lot faster in that thing than it does in my battlecruisers! :surprise:
It gets horrible highway mileage, too. I doubt if he could break 25 mpg.
On the other hand, my GMC with a 4.10 rear end also pulls around 2700 rpm at 60 mph. :sick: Unlike the Hyundai, the 351 V6 doesn't like that high revving at all, and exacts its revenge at the gas station.
FWD transmissions force designers to make some choices: optimize the gearing for fuel economy or performance. There's not enough room in the transaxle case for really tall overdrives or really short 1st or 2nd gears, so they have to make the choice in the final gear and give up one or the other.
I always thought that was fairly short for a rear end in a car like this, but I've heard that the Hemi is an engine that does like to rev. Plus, they weren't all that concerned about fuel economy back then
I dunno, qbrozen. While I had a '90 Mazda Protege LX (125hp DOHC, 5-speed manual), turned like 3200rpm at 70mph, quite annoying, my ex had an '84 Accord (~100hp, 5-speed manual) that absolutely loafed, something like 2000rpm at 70mph. Clearly, the Pro had a lot more power on tap all over the rev range, and you had to downshift the Accord if you wanted to pass rapidly, but I'd rather have that with at least the option of quiet and decent mileage. The Pro drove me nuts on the highway. Long and short of it, hardly any power is needed to keep a car cruising at higher speeds once it gets there.
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I think that car needs to stay revving to maintain that "power at the drop of the hammer" feeling, although perhaps the gears are too closely spaced.
Now consider this: the '06 Accord V-6 MT. SAME price, 20% MORE power, 25% MORE torque, SAME FUEL ECONOMY RATING, slightly bigger and less sporty, but with most of the doodads the TSX has (as long as you can learn to "settle" for the Honda badge!). The Accord V-6 is sporty enough that if it were me I would leave behind the somewhat low-torque TSX, and for the same money pick up the Accord.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With that said though I still like that new Civic.
Now just need some supply so I can combine a decent discout with the (supposed) high resale of a tC and I might have to pull the trigger.
Then I can drive my wife nuts complaining that I should have gotten the Accord since it is biger, etc....
One thing I ain't getting is a Camry. I have a loaner today (brand new LE 4 cyl AT). Real quiet and smooth/isolated, but it almost puts me to sleep with the isolated driving experience and numb steering. Frankly, not much different than the '05 Impala I drove last week, but the seats were a little better.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Of course, in addition to power being a factor, also gearing, aerodynamics, and tire size can affect how easily a vehicle can maintain its speed.
Was the accord able to maintain its speed uphill? For instance, in my old '87 4runner 5-speed, I couldn't get up the Verazzano bridge without downshifting, or else I would steadily loose speed even with the pedal pinned to the floor. the 116 hp 4-cyl, 30 inch tires, and horrible aerodynamics all played a part in that vehicle not being able to maintain speed in high gear.
Fairly steady: '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c, '21 WRX, '20 S90 T6, '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel, '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP / Rotating stock, but currently: '92 325i, '97 Alto Works, '11 Mini Cooper S
My '79 NYer would only be doing around 2100 rpm@70. That's also a bit of a sweet spot for it, since it hits peak torque around 2400 rpm, so it has no trouble taking the long grades without having to downshift. It only has a 3-speed though, no overdrive. In fact, I don't think it would downshift at that speed, no matter how hard you stomped it. Although downshifting it to second at 70 mph would still ony put it to around 3,000 rpm.
I have a feeling that it was revving pretty high, but because it was a fairly smooth, sophisticated engine for the time, it didn't draw too much attention to itself. Didn't really squeak or rattle, either. My '80 Malibu would've had less engine noise at 80 mph, and been much more responsive, but let's not talk about the squeaks and rattles!
I looked at the gear ratios in the sales brochure. The 5-sp and 6-sp have the same gear ration in first gear. The ratio of my 5th gear is the same as the ratio of the 6th gear in the 6-sp.
Therefore, gears 2,3, and 4 in my tranny are replaced by gears 2,3,4, and 5 in the 6-sp tranny. Sounds kind of silly to me.
I can see the point of a 6th gear with a tall ratio for a car that goes over 120 mph. That doea not include me and my precious little RSX. What a neat car!!!