Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

benjaminh

As far as I can tell, it doesn't make sense for my family to buy a Honda Clarity even with the $7500 federal tax credit that we'd qualify for. For staters a Clarity costs about 4k more than an Accord Hybrid EX—and so there goes more than half of the credit right there. And then the Clarity (like almost all plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles) has way lower resale value than an Accord—and there goes the other half of the tax credit, and probably much more than that. There's a slight gas savings over an Accord Hybrid of maybe $250 a year, but that's completely swamped by that faster depreciation of the Clarity as far as I can tell.

And for other reasons I didn't really want the Clarity anyway. The styling is too weird for me, there's no lumbar on the power seat, no moonroof, the handling isn't as good as an Accord, the trip range is half of an Accord Hybrid, etc.

Bottom line is that not surprisingly it makes the more sense to just keep my wife's 2013 Accord EXL for now, esp. since it has only 50k miles.

nyccarguy

benjaminh said:

As far as I can tell, it doesn't make sense for my family to buy a Honda Clarity even with the $7500 federal tax credit that we'd qualify for. For staters a Clarity costs about 4k more than an Accord Hybrid EX—and so there goes more than half of the credit right there. And then the Clarity (like almost all plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles) has way lower resale value than an Accord—and there goes the other half of the tax credit, and probably much more than that. There's a slight gas savings over an Accord Hybrid of maybe $250 a year, but that's completely swamped by that faster depreciation of the Clarity as far as I can tell.

And for other reasons I didn't really want the Clarity anyway. The styling is too weird for me, there's no lumbar on the power seat, no moonroof, the handling isn't as good as an Accord, the trip range is half of an Accord Hybrid, etc.

Bottom line is that not surprisingly it makes the more sense to just keep my wife's 2013 Accord EXL for now, esp. since it has only 50k miles.

So what you need to do trade your Accord in on an Infiniti G37X or Q40 AWD like I have. I averaged 18.71 mpg over the last 326 or so miles I put on the car last week (not too shabby). Then in a year you can trade THAT in on a Clarity to justify the cost. Plus you'll have a year of fun with the Infiniti. Your welcome!

Michaell

benjaminh said:

As far as I can tell, it doesn't make sense for my family to buy a Honda Clarity even with the $7500 federal tax credit that we'd qualify for. For staters a Clarity costs about 4k more than an Accord Hybrid EX—and so there goes more than half of the credit right there. And then the Clarity (like almost all plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles) has way lower resale value than an Accord—and there goes the other half of the tax credit, and probably much more than that. There's a slight gas savings over an Accord Hybrid of maybe $250 a year, but that's completely swamped by that faster depreciation of the Clarity as far as I can tell.

And for other reasons I didn't really want the Clarity anyway. The styling is too weird for me, there's no lumbar on the power seat, no moonroof, the handling isn't as good as an Accord, the trip range is half of an Accord Hybrid, etc.

Bottom line is that not surprisingly it makes the more sense to just keep my wife's 2013 Accord EXL for now, esp. since it has only 50k miles.

10,000 miles a year is a nice pace. We're averaging about 8K a year on the Outback, and the plan is to keep it for 10 or more years. Both your Honda and my Subaru have excellent resale value, so when the time comes, we'll both get a nice price for either a private party sale or trade in.

(Subaru continues to send me flyers telling me I can get into a new 2018 Outback 3.6R Limted and save $30-40-50/mo on the payments. Sorry, but there aren't enough new features on the 2018 to make me consider trading in the current car and reset the payment clock)

We will have to make a decision when the Jetta lease is up next summer. We thought, for a time, that I wouldn't replace it, but I don't think my wife is keen on sharing a vehicle. I posted a stream of consciousness list of options a week or two back. At the very least, it will give me an excuse to continue test driving cars for the next year or so. I'm sure @breld and @jpp5862 will offer their opinions and keep me company.

stickguy

Michael, you will end up the same place as me. Can make a case on paper to go down a car, but once you try it, reality will hit quick and you will replace it anyway.

Our RDX still has good value. And low miles. If it had nice modern tech features, definitely wouldn’t think of trading it. Maybe. And the last few years, that inky did 5-6k annual miles. And that was with 2 at least 1k mike round trips to NC that will no longer happen.

We might be lucky to put 12k miles total on both cars if nothing changes!

breld

@benjaminh - sounds like a very sound decision.

As I've said, I'd like to replace the i3 with a vehicle with more range. Ideally, we'd like to stay with an EV, but for now, the choices are pretty much limited to the Bolt. And I'm not opposed to it, but I just don't get too excited about it.

We looked at the Hyundai Kona yesterday and really liked the design, and it's received very positive reviews with regard to the driving experience. So...a Kona EV with a range of around 250 miles is supposed to arrive next year (sooner for California). At least for now, we sort of have our sights set on that.

In the meantime, we can of course just hold on to the i3, but I'd also be tempted to get into something relatively inexpensive that would have a better depreciation curve over the next year than the i3. As @benjaminh pointed out above, with the availability and technology advancing quickly, EVs suffer from some serious depreciation.

I was thinking something like...a used Honda Fit? Some fun to drive, not electric but still efficient, and should hold its value really well, right?

suydam

“Honda Fit” and “fun to drive” don’t belong in the same sentence.

nyccarguy

jpp5862 said:

@nyccarguy

Great pics! Thanks for sharing, sounds like a great day.

Thanks!

Michaell

@breld - you should consider that Elantra Sport you showed @jpp5862 and I this weekend. Nice GTI (or GLI, in this case) alternative.

tifighter

The Bolt is worth a test drive. One of my best friends has one and gets about 280 miles of range pretty regularly. Also, it's no slouch...probably just as quick as the i3 and not rolly-polly like a Leaf. If you don't have a go, you'll never know...

qbrozen

suydam said:

“Honda Fit” and “fun to drive” don’t belong in the same sentence.

It is all relative. The Fit handles well compared to its peers.

corvette

iluvmysephia1 said:

corvette - are you pro-Nissan, or lukewarm on Nissan?

Well, I’ve owned three of them, and they’ve been the most dependable vehicles I’ve owned. But also not very exciting. I agree with others that the Altima is one of their more competitive products—not the Versa or Sentra. I did have one of the first CVT Sentras as a rental around 2008 and thought it was fine, but I think the newer ones are less competitive in their segment. 

iluvmysephia1

Well, I’ve owned three of them, and they’ve been the most dependable vehicles I’ve owned. But also not very exciting. I agree with others that the Altima is one of their more competitive products—not the Versa or Sentra. I did have one of the first CVT Sentras as a rental around 2008 and thought it was fine, but I think the newer ones are less competitive in their segment.

I know that you and PF Flyer have bought more than one Nissan. I look at their legacy Company, Datsun, and the beautiful 1968 Datsun 411 Bluebird that I found on the net a couple years ago and considered buying, and the cool 510 models that are still going strong today.

The truth about Nissan quality and reliability is basically not in any serious doubt by me - I've seen them on the streets for so long and man, there's Nissan sedans all over the town I live in. And they're out in large numbers everywhere we've lived. I like their design theme going now - I didn't like it at first but the compact Sentra's body design is starting to resonate with me.

I'm reading customer reviews on the 2017-18 Nissan Sentra now at KBB.com. Very interesting reading and it's doing nothing to turn me away from possibly pursuing one of them. Discounted prices does not equate to crappy quality - I know this to be true because I'm a fan of Kia Motors. Very strong powertrains and build quality for less, and, with a longer Warranty. Works well for me.

benjaminh

breld said:

.... As @benjaminh pointed out above, with the availability and technology advancing quickly, EVs suffer from some serious depreciation....

The depreciation involved with almost all new cars is significant, but with some EVs it's huge. Yesterday I read a blog about a guy who got a Nissan Leaf for c. $27,000 (including the federal tax credit) back in 2011. He finally sold it in 2017 for—I kid you not—$2500. His costs for travel via electricity were reasonable, and he had very low maintenance costs, but the depreciation was murder. At the end of his blog he said he didn't think he would ever buy an EV again because of this. I assume most people could sell a 6 year old Leaf for more than that, but.....?

https://www.corporatemonkeycpa.com/2016/12/08/costs-to-drive-an-electric-vehicle/

The person who bought the 2011 Leaf from him for $2500 got a total bargain, esp. since the batteries were replaced under warranty just a year or so before. But as he says on his blog, more or less: "there's almost no one in the car market who has any interest in buying a 6 year old electric vehicle." Yikes. Buying a cheap used EV might by the contrarian way to go.

@breld In terms of depreciation and fun-to-drive you might be better off with a turbo Civic than a Fit. On the highway the Civic is estimated to get about 42 mpg, which is almost as good as a hybrid, and better than a Fit. At the CivcX site several talk about getting as much as 50 mpg on highway drives.

benjaminh

A ps to all of this EV stuff is I just found out that if I had one I could charge up for free at work. With the 47 mile range many days I wouldn't even need to plug in at home, since it's about 10 miles to work. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to a car that falls in value like a rock.

Why the fast depreciation on EVs? It turns out there are several reasons that make sense.

-In c. 4-8 years many EV batteries are degenerating and losing their capacity. If these batteries aren't replaced under warranty, the costs for the customer to replace batteries amounts to thousands of dollars in costs that aren't faced with a gas engine. Most gas cars today can go well over 10 years and 100k miles with just scheduled maintenance.

-The range of an EV is much less than a gas car or hybrid. In some ways it's amazing that a few EVs can go more than 200 miles on a charge. But my 2016 Accord with its 17 gallon tank can go about 450 miles on a tank in the city, and almost 600 miles on the highway.

-You have to install a fast charger at home unless you can spend 12 hours each time "filling up" your EV. That adds $1000 in costs right there.

-The huge federal tax credit of $7500 also depresses resale values, because it's reflected in the real price that most people pay for the vehicle. Say you buy a new Clarity now for 4k off list, or c. 30k. With the rebate it's actually just a 22.5k! Wonderful. What if in even just a year you tried to trade it in. Normally a car wouldn't lose almost 50% of its resale compared msrp in just 1 year. But my guess is that a Clarity or other EV would. The dealer would say, rightly, that a new 2019 Clarity is actually still c. 22.5k after the federal tax credit, and so the most he can offer you is c. 17k for your 2018 Clarity that they'll have trouble selling for 20k. Just a guess, but....

-The styling of EVs is invariably weird, often verging on unpleasant. I'm kinda shy. I don't want my car to scream "look at me." Whether shy or not, most people want nice looking cars, not freakish ones.

-Electricity costs have been rising rapidly in many markets in the US for the last 10 years or so. I think our rates in KY have gone up c. 40% in the last 10 years or so.

Bottom line: My guess is that EVs still have a way to go to make sense in terms of dollars spent for most customers, even with the federal tax credit.

kyfdx

-Electricity costs have been rising rapidly in many markets in the US for the last 10 years or so. I think our rates in KY have gone up c. 40% in the last 10 years or so.


That's okay.. I have stock in PPL. Keep buying that electricity! I need my dividends!

corvette

Very surprised to see a personal finance site admit that it would be cheaper to lease a vehicle than buy. Most of the PF hive mind is vehemently anti-leasing. Of course, it’s cheaper in the long run to buy a modest lightly used car for cash and drive it 10+ years, but that’s not what we do around here. 

nyccarguy

corvette said:

Very surprised to see a personal finance site admit that it would be cheaper to lease a vehicle than buy. Most of the PF hive mind is vehemently anti-leasing. Of course, it’s cheaper in the long run to buy a modest lightly used car for cash and drive it 10+ MONTHS, but that’s what we do around here. 

stickguy

that just sounds horrible way to live. Buying a bare bones car that is already out of date technology wise, then driving it for 10 more years? Do I look like a masochist?

benjaminh

Long-time auto industry analyst John McElroy warns of battery electric vehicle (BEV) fiasco in the next five years. Now that I've done a little bit of research on it myself, I think he makes some good points.

http://www.wardsauto.com/ideaxchange/impending-ev-fiasco

"The Impending EV Fiasco....
Where are all the BEV buyers going to come from? California and its cohorts are mandating that sales in their markets grow from roughly 60,000 BEVs to more than 1 million a year in just a few years. That would represent the fastest market shift in the history of the industry. At the current rate of adoption, they’re going to miss their goals by a mile.

Here’s what’s likely to happen, at least in the U.S. Over the next three to four years more than 100 BEV models could go on sale, up from 12 today. They will attract some attention, but once most shoppers look at the sticker prices or discover the monthly lease payments, they’ll move on to something more affordable.

Since automakers are mandated to sell specific percentages of BEVs or face stiff fines, they’ll be forced to offer big discounts. They will lose a lot of money. Dealers will be reluctant to order more BEVs because they don’t want to get stuck with slow-selling models that need massive support from the factory.

Residual values will plummet, as we’ve already seen happen with BEVs, because there is even less demand for them as used cars. Anyone who purchases a BEV will be horrified at how fast it depreciates. And because residual values determine lease payments, the lease rates on new BEVs will shoot up, unless the factory runs in to subsidize them, and lose even more money.

Meanwhile the media will pounce on how much money the car companies are losing on electric cars. They’ll run stories on how BEV sales are missing their targets. And they’ll discover the abysmal resale value of these cars...."

(more at the link)

qbrozen

benjaminh said:

.... As @benjaminh pointed out above, with the availability and technology advancing quickly, EVs suffer from some serious depreciation....

The depreciation involved with almost all new cars is significant, but with some EVs it's huge. Yesterday I read a blog about a guy who got a Nissan Leaf for c. $27,000 (including the federal tax credit) back in 2011. He finally sold it in 2017 for—I kid you not—$2500. His costs for travel via electricity were reasonable, and he had very low maintenance costs, but the depreciation was murder. At the end of his blog he said he didn't think he would ever buy an EV again because of this. I assume most people could sell a 6 year old Leaf for more than that, but.....? https://www.corporatemonkeycpa.com/2016/12/08/costs-to-drive-an-electric-vehicle/ The person who bought the 2011 Leaf from him for $2500 got a total bargain, esp. since the batteries were replaced under warranty just a year or so before. But as he says on his blog, more or less: "there's almost no one in the car market who has any interest in buying a 6 year old electric vehicle." Yikes. Buying a cheap used EV might by the contrarian way to go. @breld In terms of depreciation and fun-to-drive you might be better off with a turbo Civic than a Fit. On the highway the Civic is estimated to get about 42 mpg, which is almost as good as a hybrid, and better than a Fit. At the CivcX site several talk about getting as much as 50 mpg on highway drives.

He said not a firesale? Well he did something wrong. That sale was a year ago, so if I look now at a 2012 Leaf SL with 45k miles, I see auction prices in the mid $9k range. That means that I would be able to sell even to a wholesaler for cash for $7k-$7500, worst case scenario.

tifighter

Not to mention Nissan no longer gives incentives on lease buyouts as of a year or so ago and has turned those over to the dealers. This also seems to have firmed up the values.

Since most EV's are leased in the US, this specific situation seems pretty rare. I personally know nine others that have EV's and seven of them were leased, one purchased used and one new purchase for a guy that drives 20k miles/year (lease isn't an option there). And PHEV's, like the Volt, have don't suffer like Gen 1 Leafs either.

andres3

benjaminh said:

A ps to all of this EV stuff is I just found out that if I had one I could charge up for free at work. With the 47 mile range many days I wouldn't even need to plug in at home, since it's about 10 miles to work. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to a car that falls in value like a rock.

Why the fast depreciation on EVs? It turns out there are several reasons that make sense.

-In c. 4-8 years many EV batteries are degenerating and losing their capacity. If these batteries aren't replaced under warranty, the costs for the customer to replace batteries amounts to thousands of dollars in costs that aren't faced with a gas engine. Most gas cars today can go well over 10 years and 100k miles with just scheduled maintenance.

-The range of an EV is much less than a gas car or hybrid. In some ways it's amazing that a few EVs can go more than 200 miles on a charge. But my 2016 Accord with its 17 gallon tank can go about 450 miles on a tank in the city, and almost 600 miles on the highway.

-You have to install a fast charger at home unless you can spend 12 hours each time "filling up" your EV. That adds $1000 in costs right there.

-The huge federal tax credit of $7500 also depresses resale values, because it's reflected in the real price that most people pay for the vehicle. Say you buy a new Clarity now for 4k off list, or c. 30k. With the rebate it's actually just a 22.5k! Wonderful. What if in even just a year you tried to trade it in. Normally a car wouldn't lose almost 50% of its resale compared msrp in just 1 year. But my guess is that a Clarity or other EV would. The dealer would say, rightly, that a new 2019 Clarity is actually still c. 22.5k after the federal tax credit, and so the most he can offer you is c. 17k for your 2018 Clarity that they'll have trouble selling for 20k. Just a guess, but....

-The styling of EVs is invariably weird, often verging on unpleasant. I'm kinda shy. I don't want my car to scream "look at me." Whether shy or not, most people want nice looking cars, not freakish ones.

-Electricity costs have been rising rapidly in many markets in the US for the last 10 years or so. I think our rates in KY have gone up c. 40% in the last 10 years or so.

Bottom line: My guess is that EVs still have a way to go to make sense in terms of dollars spent for most customers, even with the federal tax credit.

It obviously takes huge gov't rebates to sell them in the first place, only makes sense that the true value is based on the sale price, not the MSRP. Using the MSRP on a vehicle with a $7,500 rebate (doesn't matter where it comes from; in this case, the taxpayer), will always reduce resale values as compared to MSRP. Rebates basically mean the MSRP is a joke, and not necessarily a funny one!

andres3

qbrozen said:

benjaminh said:

breld said:

.... As @benjaminh pointed out above, with the availability and technology advancing quickly, EVs suffer from some serious depreciation....

The depreciation involved with almost all new cars is significant, but with some EVs it's huge. Yesterday I read a blog about a guy who got a Nissan Leaf for c. $27,000 (including the federal tax credit) back in 2011. He finally sold it in 2017 for—I kid you not—$2500. His costs for travel via electricity were reasonable, and he had very low maintenance costs, but the depreciation was murder. At the end of his blog he said he didn't think he would ever buy an EV again because of this. I assume most people could sell a 6 year old Leaf for more than that, but.....?

https://www.corporatemonkeycpa.com/2016/12/08/costs-to-drive-an-electric-vehicle/

The person who bought the 2011 Leaf from him for $2500 got a total bargain, esp. since the batteries were replaced under warranty just a year or so before. But as he says on his blog, more or less: "there's almost no one in the car market who has any interest in buying a 6 year old electric vehicle." Yikes. Buying a cheap used EV might by the contrarian way to go.

@breld In terms of depreciation and fun-to-drive you might be better off with a turbo Civic than a Fit. On the highway the Civic is estimated to get about 42 mpg, which is almost as good as a hybrid, and better than a Fit. At the CivcX site several talk about getting as much as 50 mpg on highway drives.

He said not a firesale? Well he did something wrong. That sale was a year ago, so if I look now at a 2012 Leaf SL with 45k miles, I see auction prices in the mid $9k range. That means that I would be able to sell even to a wholesaler for cash for $7k-$7500, worst case scenario.

Perhaps he had to disclose the back seat was a former murder scene; hence the murderous depreciation.

Do car sellers have to disclose "deaths" in the car? Do realtors in house sales, or is that just a Hollywood myth?

Mr_Shiftright

It varies state to state regarding realtors. In CA if the death occurred within 3 years you have to disclose. But if there was a multipe ax-murder in your dream house, say 20 years ago, nobody has to say anything. Of course, if asked, a realtor probably has to come clean, or plead "I dunno".

Regarding cars--that's a really good question. In most instances, dealers have to disclose accidents, so I'd imagine if there was a death from the accident, that might come out.

I'd sure like to know if there was a death or murder in a car--just in case I should....um...find something one of these days.

If you're worried, I think there are detailers who specialize in this sort of thing....

qbrozen

fintail

I've seen 2011-12 Leafs in the 5-6K range on CL all the time, not sure what might be wrong with them though.

Now here's a real car

Be the star at your next local MBCA event

I'd take this over a new Continental

stickguy

a twin turbo german V12. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong there.

roadburner

corvette said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

corvette - are you pro-Nissan, or lukewarm on Nissan?

Well, I’ve owned three of them, and they’ve been the most dependable vehicles I’ve owned. But also not very exciting. I agree with others that the Altima is one of their more competitive products—not the Versa or Sentra. I did have one of the first CVT Sentras as a rental around 2008 and thought it was fine, but I think the newer ones are less competitive in their segment. 

I had a 1969 SPL311 and a 1993 Pathfinder SE; I liked then both. That said, the 370Z is the only current Nissan product that I could actually imagine owning.

stickguy

I'm surprised when I think back how many brands I have actually owned that at first blush I thought I missed. I think I have had 2 Nissans. 1990 (maybe a 91) extended cab PU (that was fun, didn't last long thanks to a baby arriving and not being able to put a car seat in a jump seat. ) Later on I had a 1998 Maxima SE 5 speed. Quite the little hot rod, complete with torque steer!

corvette

Wow, a 1990 MB 560SEL only has a driver's airbag? None for the passenger? That's the same as any lowly Volvo of the same year.

I haven't driven one, but I'd buy or lease a Titan if the price were right compared to other trucks.

fintail

Passenger airbag was only standard on US spec for MY 1991, optional from 1988 onward, I believe. Driver's airbag was standard on US spec W126 from 1984/85 onward, depending on model. Airbag was optional from the start of production in late 1979.

qbrozen

fintail said:

I've seen 2011-12 Leafs in the 5-6K range on CL all the time, not sure what might be wrong with them though. Now here's a real car Be the star at your next local MBCA event I'd take this over a new Continental

The cheaper Leafs may have more normal mileage. 45k for a 6+ yr old car is quite low.

benjaminh

As we all know, depreciation on gas cars is quite steep too. Two years ago, when I got my 2016 Accord it was a decent deal—4k off of msrp with 0.9% financing for 5 years. I had a 7k downpayment resulting in monthly payments after TTL of $296. At this point, after 20+ payments, there's still about $11k left on the loan. I don't know what a 2016 Accord EX in very good condition with 25k miles is worth, but I'm guessing at most 15k? Anyway, the net result is that even with a good discount from msrp and a very low interest rate from Honda pretty much every dollar I've paid on the loan has been going straight to depreciation. But it's well worth it. Love the car and the features. Best car I've ever owned by far. Decent power, good handling, great features (esp. AndroidAuto with google maps), nice mpg (36-40 on the highway), plenty of room, etc. I'm happy to pay $296 a month to use it, because I enjoy driving it every day.

stickguy

So IOW so far you have been leasing it. In theory, that is how it should work with a new car, if the residuals are set correctly. After 3 years you should be in roughly the same financial position buy or lease.

graphicguy

IIRC, there was an article a couple of years ago about how deeply discounted new Leaf’s were. Add in the Fed and State rebates, I think the lease payment was around $100/mo.

Somewhere down the line in that Leaf’s life, someone else will have to pay for those discounts.

I have to think that as a used car, the 1st gen Leaf’s would be pretty darned cheap.

fintail

Here's a lower miles one - what may be wrong with it (other than styling and range ) I don't know. Nice color anyway.

qbrozen said:

The cheaper Leafs may have more normal mileage. 45k for a 6+ yr old car is quite low.

suydam

benjaminh said:

A ps to all of this EV stuff is I just found out that if I had one I could charge up for free at work. With the 47 mile range many days I wouldn't even need to plug in at home, since it's about 10 miles to work. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to a car that falls in value like a rock.

Why the fast depreciation on EVs? It turns out there are several reasons that make sense.

-In c. 4-8 years many EV batteries are degenerating and losing their capacity. If these batteries aren't replaced under warranty, the costs for the customer to replace batteries amounts to thousands of dollars in costs that aren't faced with a gas engine. Most gas cars today can go well over 10 years and 100k miles with just scheduled maintenance.

-The range of an EV is much less than a gas car or hybrid. In some ways it's amazing that a few EVs can go more than 200 miles on a charge. But my 2016 Accord with its 17 gallon tank can go about 450 miles on a tank in the city, and almost 600 miles on the highway.

-You have to install a fast charger at home unless you can spend 12 hours each time "filling up" your EV. That adds $1000 in costs right there.

-The huge federal tax credit of $7500 also depresses resale values, because it's reflected in the real price that most people pay for the vehicle. Say you buy a new Clarity now for 4k off list, or c. 30k. With the rebate it's actually just a 22.5k! Wonderful. What if in even just a year you tried to trade it in. Normally a car wouldn't lose almost 50% of its resale compared msrp in just 1 year. But my guess is that a Clarity or other EV would. The dealer would say, rightly, that a new 2019 Clarity is actually still c. 22.5k after the federal tax credit, and so the most he can offer you is c. 17k for your 2018 Clarity that they'll have trouble selling for 20k. Just a guess, but....

-The styling of EVs is invariably weird, often verging on unpleasant. I'm kinda shy. I don't want my car to scream "look at me." Whether shy or not, most people want nice looking cars, not freakish ones.

-Electricity costs have been rising rapidly in many markets in the US for the last 10 years or so. I think our rates in KY have gone up c. 40% in the last 10 years or so.

Bottom line: My guess is that EVs still have a way to go to make sense in terms of dollars spent for most customers, even with the federal tax credit.

I disagree. EVs depreciate faster because the technology keeps improving. Who wants a 27 mile range when you can get over 50 now on a Volt — that happened in less than 5 years. So leasing is the sensible way to go. I leased mine, and I’ll see in 3years what new tech is available. If I don’t see anything I like better I’ll probably buy the Volt. If you think you’re going to trade in a year you should lease. Most EVs have great reliability so no worries on that score.
The newer EVs look more like regular cars. I get a lot of compliments on the Volt, and people are surprised it’s a plug in. The Bolt looks like any CUV. In a parking lot they don’t stand out at all.
You can easily do 12hour charging at home. Charge it at night and it’s ready to go the next morning, especially if you can charge at work for free. I’ve been doing it for over a year now and it’s no big deal. I can see how a charger would make life easier, but it’s not worth it to me.
To me these are all just reasons not to look at an EV or plug in. If you don’t want one that’s fine. But once you try it out, these are really non issues. These imaginary hurdles are what keep people from considering one, not any real problems with the vehicles. In fact the Volt is easily one of the nicest cars I’ve owned.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

I've seen 2011-12 Leafs in the 5-6K range on CL all the time, not sure what might be wrong with them though.

Now here's a real car

Be the star at your next local MBCA event

I'd take this over a new Continental

Those cars are God's way of telling you that you have too much discretionary income.

sda

benjaminh said:

As we all know, depreciation on gas cars is quite steep too. Two years ago, when I got my 2016 Accord it was a decent deal—4k off of msrp with 0.9% financing for 5 years. I had a 7k downpayment resulting in monthly payments after TTL of $296. At this point, after 20+ payments, there's still about $11k left on the loan. I don't know what a 2016 Accord EX in very good condition with 25k miles is worth, but I'm guessing at most 15k? Anyway, the net result is that even with a good discount from msrp and a very low interest rate from Honda pretty much every dollar I've paid on the loan has been going straight to depreciation. But it's well worth it. Love the car and the features. Best car I've ever owned by far. Decent power, good handling, great features (esp. AndroidAuto with google maps), nice mpg (36-40 on the highway), plenty of room, etc. I'm happy to pay $296 a month to use it, because I enjoy driving it every day.

I feel the same with my '13 EX.  And it is almost paid for, less than $1k remaining!

Sandman6472

Worked all day yesterday, 8 to 6:15, got home and I was beat. Decided at 7:30 or so, just go to bed. Had a 10 am blood test this morning which I made in no time. Did some errands and got some groceries and now home. Had the "over 55" pancakes at IHOP, which were quite good and filling.
Home now reading the paper, doing a load of wash and relaxing. Working every other day seems to be the best solution for me at this point in my life. Since our week starts on Friday, I'll be one day short this week but no big deal but for some reason, one of my other co-workers keeps trying to get me to work more hours even though I tell him I'm good with my 30/week. Doubt I'd go in Thursday as not going to push myself anymore.
Every day, new bills come in about what little my insurance paid and what my portion is so maybe some extra hours ain't such a bad idea, lol!!
My SiriusXM is working again but for some reason, had no signal yesterday morning going in, so used my iTunes. Worked with no issue so if I had to give it up, wouldn't be a big issue but would miss the variety.

The Sandman

andres3

stickguy said:

So IOW so far you have been leasing it. In theory, that is how it should work with a new car, if the residuals are set correctly. After 3 years you should be in roughly the same financial position buy or lease.

Assuming you buy/lease the same brand of car again with the lease, otherwise, I think most brands (Kia for sure) tack on a "disloyalty" lease return fee. And it is not just a token fee; I believe $400?

stickguy

Yes they do. All brands have that. Fees at the front and back end add to lease cost, but are often offset by lease incentives, and saving on tax.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Yes they do. All brands have that. Fees at the front and back end add to lease cost, but are often offset by lease incentives, and saving on tax.

I'll have to look, but I'm sure I have a "disposition fee" for my Jetta.

qbrozen

fintail said:

Here's a lower miles one - what may be wrong with it (other than styling and range ) I don't know. Nice color anyway.

The cheaper Leafs may have more normal mileage. 45k for a 6+ yr old car is quite low.

Not far off for a 2011 as of now. They are ranging in the $4k-$5k range, depending on condition.

Not sure why 2012s are getting so much more at the auctions. 

Mr_Shiftright

There's really not much difference between an '11 and a '12.

stickguy

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Yes they do. All brands have that. Fees at the front and back end add to lease cost, but are often offset by lease incentives, and saving on tax.

I'll have to look, but I'm sure I have a "disposition fee" for my Jetta.

Trust me. You do! One reason for the princess leasing one. She likes it, and I should be able to get that waived.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Yes they do. All brands have that. Fees at the front and back end add to lease cost, but are often offset by lease incentives, and saving on tax.

I'll have to look, but I'm sure I have a "disposition fee" for my Jetta.

Trust me. You do! One reason for the princess leasing one. She likes it, and I should be able to get that waived.

Just looked at the contract - $350

nyccarguy

I’m not sure how many of you guys are on Facebook & are friends with @tbirdmarco, but he posted a few pictures and some quick video clips of his t-bird!  It looks great and sounds like it just rolled off the showroom floor!    Bravo!  Very well done!

stickguy

need to get them posted over here somehow.

nyccarguy

jpp5862 said:

@nyccarguy

Great pics! Thanks for sharing, sounds like a great day.

Thanks! I was beginning to think that maybe my pics didn't post, or people were more interested in the political "scuffle" going on over on Cars & Conversations.

I found a company that makes thicker sway bars (front & back) for the AWD Q40. I'd LOVE to get that bad boy out there once it is properly set up.