Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

henryn

Found this buried in the fine print for a used car listing. And this is a Cadillac dealership, I would expect better.

"Pre-Owned Vehicle Pricing does not include taxes, state fees, or dealer fees, including a $1288.50 Recon Fee which may cover the following reconditioning issues cosmetic refurbishing, full detail, new tires, windshield, any major repairs or maintenance, and safety check."

What was the old saying? "Crooks, d___ crooks, and car dealers"

28firefighter

And for a lesson in how not to handle questions/comments/concerns about your BaT auction, see the comments on this thread:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-46/

Mr_Shiftright

nyccarguy said:

Shifty - https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-toyota-mr2-8/

I really like those cars---can't fit in 'em though. The mid-engine bulkhead restricts seat movement. I suppose it's possible to modify the bulkhead somehow--I've heard about Miata and Boxster owners doing something like that.

pensfan83

That escalated quickly.

Mr_Shiftright

28firefighter said:

And for a lesson in how not to handle questions/comments/concerns about your BaT auction, see the comments on this thread:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-46/

A buyer would be nuts to buy this car on the blind.

28firefighter

I watched a 1999 Boxster with 42k miles sell for nearly 15k yesterday. People put a premium on weird stuff and want what they want.

tifighter

28firefighter said:

And for a lesson in how not to handle questions/comments/concerns about your BaT auction, see the comments on this thread:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-46/

Selling a speed yellow 996 on CL, ebay then BAT. It's a small world out there for a car like this; he had to know someone else would find this auction and speak up. But it is a good watch for us home viewers...

Mr_Shiftright

28firefighter said:

I watched a 1999 Boxster with 42k miles sell for nearly 15k yesterday. People put a premium on weird stuff and want what they want.

Well you know how it is---if the miles are extraordinarily low, and the car is pristine, the price guides don't apply as well. Ironically, the lower the miles, the more vulnerable the Boxster is to IMS failure, so in a way that bid isn't as rational as it might be with other cars.

My pick for a Boxster would be 2003 on up, with about 75,000 miles, and with a new clutch installed. This combo improves your odds in a number of ways. You have less risk from IMS failure, you get a glass window rather than a plastic one, and you have pre-empted the almost guaranteed 80K clutch failure.

28firefighter

I've heard good things about the 99's because of the dual-row IMS bearing, which has a 1% or less failure rate. But to your point, I saw a Boxster S with about the mileage you say and the maintenance you described pull that same $15k, too.

I understand that people make emotional purchases, get carried away with bidding etc, but come on...

Mr_Shiftright

The S is so much more fun, too.

graphicguy

Just saw a segment of “Wheeler Dealer” that featured an MR2 Turbo they rehabbed. Cool car.....mid-engine, Toyota bulletproof. But, a [non-permissible content removed] to work on if something does go awry.

fintail

BaT seems to be the worst of the housing market, but in car form. Flippers, speculators, jerky sellers, fall-through buyers, bubbles, accentuating the socio-economic chasm, etc.

pensfan83

I think it's hit or miss. There's been some good buys on there but some very questionable ones too.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

Just saw a segment of “Wheeler Dealer” that featured an MR2 Turbo they rehabbed. Cool car.....mid-engine, Toyota bulletproof. But, a [non-permissible content removed] to work on if something does go awry.

I watched that episode, as well.

For a brand that is supposedly the pinnacle of reliability, that engine needed way more work than I would have imagined.

I did like the swap to the 17" wheels and tires, however.

fintail

I've seen market correct pricing on less trendy cars at BaT, but it's been awhile since I have seen bargains.

The 80K Mini and 47K Torino Squire are still burned into my mind.

nyccarguy

graphicguy said:

Just saw a segment of “Wheeler Dealer” that featured an MR2 Turbo they rehabbed. Cool car.....mid-engine, Toyota bulletproof. But, a [non-permissible content removed] to work on if something does go awry.

My Dad saw that one, which lead me to look on BAT for one. He loved how they drove it around the go kart track. Did you see how they adjusted the coil overs for each wheel to account for the weight of the driver & passenger?

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

graphicguy said:

Just saw a segment of “Wheeler Dealer” that featured an MR2 Turbo they rehabbed. Cool car.....mid-engine, Toyota bulletproof. But, a [non-permissible content removed] to work on if something does go awry.

My Dad saw that one, which lead me to look on BAT for one. He loved how they drove it around the go kart track. Did you see how they adjusted the coil overs for each wheel to account for the weight of the driver & passenger?

I saw that … and was pretty impressed by how little they cost (same with the wheels and tires).

But 43 hours of shop time would break anybody's budget, if they didn't have a fully equipped shop like Ant does.

Mr_Shiftright

This is interesting--Cars with the Highest Resale (Turn-Around) Rate

omarman

Subaru WRX makes the list as one of the 11 cars re-sold at the fastest rate and it's also claimed to have the best resale value in its class according to kbb.

stickguy

Hence why people can flip them.

28firefighter

The shady yellow 996 sold for $21k. I don't understand.

henryn

^^^ the buyer never looked at the comments?

qbrozen

Was it the new user who signed up the day that auction started?

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

This is interesting--Cars with the Highest Resale (Turn-Around) Rate

I really thought I would see something like:

1. Anything purchased by @breld (100%)

pensfan83

Speaking of things that don't make sense one of my investigators is looking into a loan on Challenger Demon where $25K in aftermarket adds were added to bring the total bill, before down payment, to around $131,000. I'm trying to wrap my head around that one.

breld

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

This is interesting--Cars with the Highest Resale (Turn-Around) Rate

I really thought I would see something like:

1. Anything purchased by @breld (100%)

You'd think I could've skewed that list based on the number of GTIs/Golfs I've had (all less than a year of course).

tifighter

We all need to chip in and get @breld one of those "I'd rather be Golfing" plate holders.

stickguy

they also dropped off cars that did not go 4,000 miles, so that probably costs you a few.

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

Speaking of things that don't make sense one of my investigators is looking into a loan on Challenger Demon where $25K in aftermarket adds were added to bring the total bill, before down payment, to around $131,000. I'm trying to wrap my head around that one.

OK, this is a story you'll have to share, if you can.

I'm sure there are a lot of things about your work we would find fascinating.

corvette

What line of work is he in? 

Michaell

corvette said:

What line of work is he in? 

Pretty sure he works for a bank.

Thinking it might be loan underwriting.

nyccarguy

pensfan83 said:

Speaking of things that don't make sense one of my investigators is looking into a loan on Challenger Demon where $25K in aftermarket adds were added to bring the total bill, before down payment, to around $131,000. I'm trying to wrap my head around that one.

You’ll OBVIOUSLY have to take the car on a thorough test drive at a local track to make sure that it indeed has $25K worth of aftermarket modifications on it and that the vehicle functions properly with said modifications installed BEFORE your boss says you can approve the loan.

tbirdmarco

Lol lol lol

Mr_Shiftright

28firefighter said:

The shady yellow 996 sold for $21k. I don't understand.

Well, if it were a clean, low miles 996 with no questions and a recent IMS upgrade and service records, it might be worth close to that. As it sits, the older $15K bid was right on the money. That leaves you $5K or so to do the IMS upgrade, new clutch (while you're in there), new air/old separator, and probably an engine mail seal---all trouble spots.

I'm not quite so keen on the 996 anymore. Limited cargo space, pretty bland interior with few features, and $$$ to maintain. I wonder if all the YouTube touts really understand what it costs to fix these things. I thought the Cayman S I drove was much more fun.

pensfan83

Michaell said:

OK, this is a story you'll have to share, if you can.

I'm sure there are a lot of things about your work we would find fascinating.

I can share the situation but it will be a long read . I'm actually not in loan underwriting though, I oversee a group that's responsible for regulatory driven anti-money laundering and fraud investigations of higher risk industries and persons.

An individual named Andy* comes to one of our branch offices and wants a car loan so he applies for a vehicle installment loan using his social security number. Unfortunately for Andy his credit is awful (sub 600 FICO) so he is declined. However this person turns around and goes to a different branch office and provides a social security number that belongs to a different individual and during the course of the investigation we find that he's used this number several times before. Andy's approved for a vehicle installment loan for $50K but based on the notes entered by the branch he asked for $100K so the $50K was a counteroffer by the bank. The counteroffer is good for ~30 days since he selected a check ready product where he takes a blank check to a dealer, effectively becoming a cash buyer.

This is where it gets more interesting (and illegal). Roughly 2 weeks after being approved for a $50K loan he walks into a Dodge dealer and submitted a loan app for a Challenger Demon, MSRP is ~$92,500 (invoice sheet from the dealer says $88K though, ha). We have an indirect loan relationship with this dealer but are their preferred lender so as luck has it this one comes to us. Annual income listed is $250K and employment history at the same company for 20 years. Andy provided yet another SSN and this one has a FICO of 815 and some strong tradelines. Looking at the sale sheet from the dealer he adds: Aftermarket ($25K), Road Hazard ($500), Service Contract ($3,500). The sale price was MSRP so between all fees, taxes, etc. the grand total was roughly $131K. He makes a down payment of $30K which brings the amount financed to around $101K which was approved for 4.75% with a maximum markup of 2% split between the dealer and my employer. Loan is marked up the max and everything goes through so he now doesn't need to use the check ready auto loan check. Looking at the paperwork I tried to see what exactly aftermarket parts one gets for $25K for a car that already has over 700HP but that's the one thing the dealer didn't provide to us.

Everything is subsequently exposed when Andy goes to open a deposit relationship to take advantage of the small interest rate reduction for direct debit for the auto loan. He used his own SSN to open the deposit account and was flagged for my team's review by our vendor for being a single individual with multiple identities. Once we started digging into the deposit relationship we found the record under Andy's name with the Demon loan and a different SSN so we knew something wasn't right. We were able to confirm which SSN was his (the one with the bad FICO) and found he's associated with 5 additional SSN's, all used within the last 6 months. Furthermore he has several liens and judgements against him and an address history that seems to change every 4-5 months. So needless to say we're sending this to our collection division for handling and consideration whether repossession proceedings need to be instituted. We're also reaching out to the people whose identities are being used, presumably without their knowledge.

*name changed

28firefighter

I was looking at that. For the cost of a well kept 996, you could get a 987 Cayman S. 

28firefighter

Sometimes I think I should have gone into AML. Love these kinds of investigations. Also, scary how easy it is to defraud the SSN

pensfan83

It's quite interesting most of the time, and far from what I thought I would be doing coming out of school. I agree though, it's scary how easy it is to steal an identity or create one.

corvette

I don't have a lot of experience there, but in that instance, the bank might be able to renege on the agreement to purchase the note from the dealer. Which the bank should strongly consider doing, on a $101k auto note given to someone who actually has a bad history of repayment.

28firefighter

At what point does someone like that get handed over to the authorities for criminal prosecution?

tbirdmarco

 Wow what a whole mess from when I read above, people are crazy sad, was all interesting reading though. Good morning everybody happy Friday. My cousin found it under 30 K mile 1999 Chrysler capital eat us an old farmer special, on craigslist definitely worth a look if interested sure that all former know about it. Sounds really nice for what it is. Just thought I’d share everyone.

tbirdmarco

 That is Chrysler   L H S Type your comment

pensfan83

@28firefighter we make law enforcement aware but it's anyone's guess whether they pursue prosecution

@corvette the installment loan note cites misrepresentation, fraud, etc. as a default event that enables it to go immediately into collection. However I doubt we'll be able to pin this back on the dealer since we approved the loan

That being said we did have a situation where someone used a fraudulent loan check to purchase a new Yukon Denali. The dealer did a spot delivery of course and sent the paperwork in later, which we rejected after finding she was formerly on our books 3 years prior as a single individual with multiple identities and prior to generating her own loan check she applied for and was rejected by us. The dealer had to eat loss unless they pursued repossession through other channels.

tbirdmarco

 Wow what a whole mess with posted above, I could never think to do that people are crazy crazy out there. 

venture

henryn said:

Found this buried in the fine print for a used car listing. And this is a Cadillac dealership, I would expect better.

"Pre-Owned Vehicle Pricing does not include taxes, state fees, or dealer fees, including a $1288.50 Recon Fee which may cover the following reconditioning issues cosmetic refurbishing, full detail, new tires, windshield, any major repairs or maintenance, and safety check."

What was the old saying? "Crooks, d___ crooks, and car dealers"

I wonder what the extra 50 cents is for?

graphicguy

Re the MR2 refurb......I think the biggest issue of that show was the fact the engine had to be pulled to get to some small hose. Engine bay (mid-engined) was miniscule, too.

While I think cosmetically the car was fine. But, they had to rebuild the turbo, too. I don’t remember what the mileage was, but given the body and interior were in good shape, I can’t imagine it was very high mileage. So, rebuilding a turbo means it was either not cared for and/or abused.

Looked like the top end of the engine needed to be rebuilt. That’s a lot of work.

I had that same motor (without turbo) in my Toyota GTS F/X16, which I auto crossed. That thing was bullet proof.

Loved the adjustable shocks on it, too.

But, a Toyota that needed that much work was unusual and tells me there were some maintenance issues and abuse issues with the car before Wheeler-Dealer tackled it.

qbrozen

@pensfan83
The $25k is ADM, I suspect, no? Is that fraud on the part of the dealer to claim they are providing additional product for that money?

pensfan83

On the dealer worksheet it's labeled as "Aftermarket", which lead me to believe it was for aftermarket hardware/accessories. I suppose it could be ADM but that's an awfully hefty markup is it not? Or are Demons that rare they command that premium?

As for the fraud angle I think it would be hard to prove. They could claim it was a clerical error/typo or how they classify the markup.

EDIT: Doing some research it looks like some of the markups are even higher. Wow. Thinking about this more you may be on the right track. We have a copy of the service contract and road hazard warranties but as I mentioned nothing on the aftermarket, which I think we would have given our financial interest.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

Re the MR2 refurb......I think the biggest issue of that show was the fact the engine had to be pulled to get to some small hose. Engine bay (mid-engined) was miniscule, too.

While I think cosmetically the car was fine. But, they had to rebuild the turbo, too. I don’t remember what the mileage was, but given the body and interior were in good shape, I can’t imagine it was very high mileage. So, rebuilding a turbo means it was either not cared for and/or abused.

Looked like the top end of the engine needed to be rebuilt. That’s a lot of work.

I had that same motor (without turbo) in my Toyota GTS F/X16, which I auto crossed. That thing was bullet proof.

Loved the adjustable shocks on it, too.

But, a Toyota that needed that much work was unusual and tells me there were some maintenance issues and abuse issues with the car before Wheeler-Dealer tackled it.

I don't believe they mentioned the mileage (they rarely do). To me, it seemed like some maintenance was deferred, then it got out of hand. Which, I suspect, was why the previous owner wanted to sell it (plus, he already had one).

qbrozen

pensfan83 said:

On the dealer worksheet it's labeled as "Aftermarket", which lead me to believe it was for aftermarket hardware/accessories. I suppose it could be ADM but that's an awfully hefty markup is it not? Or are Demons that rare they command that premium?

As for the fraud angle I think it would be hard to prove. They could claim it was a clerical error/typo or how they classify the markup.

EDIT: Doing some research it looks like some of the markups are even higher. Wow. Thinking about this more you may be on the right track. We have a copy of the service contract and road hazard warranties but as I mentioned nothing on the aftermarket, which I think we would have given our financial interest.

That's just it. And something that has typically interested me. How do dealers get lender approval on ADM? Claiming it is "aftermarket add-ons" would explain a lot. But, IMHO, that is intent to defraud the lender. If the lender has to repossess that vehicle, they'd be out A LOT of money in some cases for "aftermarket add-ons" that don't actually exist.