Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

qbrozen said:

jmonroe said:

qbrozen said:

corvette said:

Updating the punch list - is this a 2019 or 2020?

'19

https://www.freeholdhyundai.com/new/Hyundai/2019-Hyundai-Ioniq+Plug-In+Hybrid-8a79c14a0a0e0a6b4da79abd49aded43.htm

Congrats on the punch. Have fun with it and give us your early impressetions.

My how times change. In 2005 when I came to Edmunds and visited the old forum, Stories From the Sales Front Lines or something like that, I was maybe the second guy, I think @snakeweasel was the other dope who owned a throwaway. Now it's almost fashionable to own one. Not many people can say they are ahead of the curve but that's a burden I've learned to live with for most of my life.

Congrats again.

jmonroe

What does “a throwaway” mean?

More importantly, how does it differ from a “wannabe”?

I've answered this before. Either you weren't listening or you're showing your age, so I'll say it again. A Genny is a wannabe and lesser model Hyundai products are throwaways. Got it? Don't make me have to say it again. :@

jmonroe

Does that mean if your Genny is a hooptie you can’t throw it away? I’m so ignorant when it comes to this modern terminology.

Genny's will never be hoopties and just thrown away. When they retire the only place you'll find them wil be in the finest wannabe car museums.

jmonroe

breld

Got a call first thing this morning from the service advisor (I appreciated the promptness of the response) indicating that they are moving in the direction of the repair/replacement being completed under warranty.

So that's a great step for sure. I did let him know that we had talked to VW Customer Care yesterday and our ask was a buyback of the vehicle. He said he'd update his manager about that, but I made the point that the repair has to be completed one way or another, and that the request for the buyback is really in our court with VW.

We don't realistically expect them to buy the car back, but I think we have a legitimate concern over how we get comfortable driving the car going forward. For starters, I want to understand the nature of the failure and the repair. And I'd like an explicit warranty for some amount of time on the new clutch.

28firefighter

graphicguy said:

@28firefighter ...I did talk to the Sales Manager about the poor delivery detail. He said he'd talk to the detail dept (which also happens to be the same one my old Cadillac dealer used....same dealership group). He said to bring it back and they would redo it. My sales lady spent all of 3-4 minutes going over the car with me. Understand, this is a car that's totally loaded with lots of tech and features. She dismissed most of my questions with "I'm new here".

She got another sales person to talk with me about a small portion of the tech, but he was brief as well.

The 2nd detail took 3 hours, which I appreciated the thoroughness, but good thing I had a friend with me who picked me up to run errands given they didn't even give me a loaner to make up for their mistakes.

Love the car. The dealership? I'm not sure any of the Kia dealerships in my area are better. They all seem to be prone to high turnover (there was not one person who I recognized there from the first time I drove a Stinger a year ago).

Big difference from my Acura dealership, but I expected that. So, not really complaining. But, I'm not giving an "excellent" survey, either. As they say, the devil's in the details. A little effort would have gone a long way. If much of the sales person's compensation is based on survey results, I would think they would make a modicum of effort to be customer focused.

I dunno...am I being too harsh?

You're not being harsh at all - but let me put it another way. Was her effort so bad that she should effectively be paid nothing for her time?

All of these comments are valuable - and I would pass them to the GM either directly or via the comment box on the survey. Especially with the perspective you bring as a high-end buyer that Kia is trying to woo.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

Well, there is no proof so far the clutch disk us, in fact, worn out. If it were, you would see gradual deterioration in performance, and not a pedal that stuck to the floor.

Yeah, something sounds fishy. A worn clutch would start shuddering and slipping long before the pedal dropped through the floor.

breld

Satisfaction surveys drive me nuts. Assuming you have had a positive experience with the salesperson, you'd like them to be rewarded or at least not dinged.

But the pressure put upon the buyer to put all top marks on a survey takes away from what I would think is the purpose of the survey - to constructively provide feedback that may be helpful to the dealership.

As discussed above, I suppose a good approach is to discuss any concerns directly with management so they are heard, and then submit a positive survey (if warranted).

breld

nyccarguy said:

breld said:

If I can find an ILX like that I may have to take a look.

Don't forget the Civic Si comes in coupe & sedan. Light, Turbo, 6-Speed Stick, Limited Slip Differential, LED headlights, heated seats...

Yes, an Si is still a top choice. I like the more subtle image of the Accord, but the Si is certainly no Type R in that regard. And because it's a "middle-of-the road" performer, I don't imagine it gets the unwanted attention I got in the Type R.

ab348

graphicguy said:

@28firefighter ...I did talk to the Sales Manager about the poor delivery detail. He said he'd talk to the detail dept (which also happens to be the same one my old Cadillac dealer used....same dealership group). He said to bring it back and they would redo it. My sales lady spent all of 3-4 minutes going over the car with me. Understand, this is a car that's totally loaded with lots of tech and features. She dismissed most of my questions with "I'm new here".

She got another sales person to talk with me about a small portion of the tech, but he was brief as well.

That is the risk a manufacturer runs when trying to sell a product significantly different from the majority of what a given channel is used to. Probably that quick once-over is fine for most Rio or Sportage buyers. Hyundai likely has a similar problem with Genesis models, or for that matter, Cadillac with their vehicles that get sold by Chevy dealers.

Big difference from my Acura dealership, but I expected that. So, not really complaining. But, I'm not giving an "excellent" survey, either. As they say, the devil's in the details. A little effort would have gone a long way. If much of the sales person's compensation is based on survey results, I would think they would make a modicum of effort to be customer focused.

I dunno...am I being too harsh?

I see the issue being more with dealer management than the sales staff. The staff need to be trained and incentivized to deal with premium cars sales differently than the econoboxes they are accustomed to moving. Management seems not to have done that.

qbrozen

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

I can't believe the Lexus dealer kept my Mom's 2016 Cayenne with over 80K miles. They gave my parents $23K on the trade in.

https://www.lexusofmtkisco.com/used-Mt+Kisco-2016-Porsche-Cayenne-Base+NAVIGATION+PREMIUM+PACKAGE-WP1AA2A23GLA05987

Just about a 30% mark up from cost. I know that’s how they do it with regular cars, interesting to see them do it on high end as well.

nah. 30% is not how it is done at the majority of dealers. They tend to look for $4k-$5k most times, with some cheapos in the $1500 area. Percentages don't work because you have fixed costs regardless of vehicle value.

rayainsw

Digital dash? Yes:
"The modern design of the digital instrument cluster optimizes driver info while the Head-up Display projects key info just below the driver's line of vision."
- Ray
Both impressive - to me...

carnaught

graphicguy said:

@28firefighter ...I did talk to the Sales Manager about the poor delivery detail. He said he'd talk to the detail dept (which also happens to be the same one my old Cadillac dealer used....same dealership group). He said to bring it back and they would redo it. My sales lady spent all of 3-4 minutes going over the car with me. Understand, this is a car that's totally loaded with lots of tech and features. She dismissed most of my questions with "I'm new here".

She got another sales person to talk with me about a small portion of the tech, but he was brief as well.

The 2nd detail took 3 hours, which I appreciated the thoroughness, but good thing I had a friend with me who picked me up to run errands given they didn't even give me a loaner to make up for their mistakes.

Love the car. The dealership? I'm not sure any of the Kia dealerships in my area are better. They all seem to be prone to high turnover (there was not one person who I recognized there from the first time I drove a Stinger a year ago).

Big difference from my Acura dealership, but I expected that. So, not really complaining. But, I'm not giving an "excellent" survey, either. As they say, the devil's in the details. A little effort would have gone a long way. If much of the sales person's compensation is based on survey results, I would think they would make a modicum of effort to be customer focused.

I dunno...am I being too harsh?

@graphicguy, I don’t think you are being too harsh. Once with Jaguar service, I gave the service advisor excellent scores but dinged them on the dirty interior they left me with. The advisor told my wife that the dealership felt the negative strike though he appreciated his positive ratings and compliments - similar story with a rating given after delivery of a new car. It has been my policy since then to not fill out a survey in these cases, rather than give a negative impacting the advisor, however, an egregious incident would be a different story.

More recently, I had my (former) Mercedes in for a routine oil change/filter, telling the service person, at a closer dealer than I bought from, that I only wanted the oil change/filter. Instead, when I went to pick up the car I saw that additional things were done with a much increased charge. I paid the bill but I talked to the service advisor afterwards and told her that I would not turn in the survey rather than giving a negative one because I did not want her to get in trouble. She told me that she appreciated that.

corvette

If they didn’t take the items I didn’t authorize off the bill, I’d have no issue giving them a bad survey.

stickguy

The real purpose of the survey is to screw salespeople out of money, to stay in the dealers pocket.

For the clutch, quite likely the higher ups got involved and straightened out the front line guy. Possibly after actually diagnosing the problem to be completely Unrelated to a worn out clutch, so obviously a warranty item.

kyfdx

pensfan83 said:

kyfdx said:

stickguy said:

Breld it’s a January two-Fer to make up for lost time. Possibly a 3 peat if the GTI ends up in Ohio!

Ohio! Ohio! Come on, now..

And a ZHP in Seattle?

I’m not in Ohio.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

Ohio, Kentucky. Potato, potato.

This is so wrong..

Philly car show, we lost BMW and I think caddy last year. This year I think it’s just MB. That one is odd, since they always were a featured make, and had a huge display. Shared a separate wing with Lexus. I assume that hall will be shut down this year.

Oh well. Quicker to get through and over to Oscars for cheesesteaks and beer!

pensfan83

kyfdx said:

pensfan83 said:

kyfdx said:

stickguy said:

Breld it’s a January two-Fer to make up for lost time. Possibly a 3 peat if the GTI ends up in Ohio!

Ohio! Ohio! Come on, now..

And a ZHP in Seattle?

I’m not in Ohio.

Ugh, apologies. Kentucky!

graphicguy

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts. I know it’s a tough gig selling cars. But, if that’s your job, then be good at it. If you’re being paid to be good with customer service, I would think that would be impetus enough.

I get the feeling my Kia dealership is more transactional. They’re not looking any further than the next car over the curb, instead of trying to make certain that customer comes back.

I can’t believe they made much on my deal. End of year, big discount, probably the majority of whatever trunk money they had on the car was thrown at the deal. Probably a “mini” for the sales person. Didn’t make money on financing, as I didn’t finance. They didn’t even try to sell an extended warranty (tough sell given Kia’s standard warranty).

So, their only hope to make a decent profit would be to have me come back for service and/or to buy another car. They’re sort of short sighted.

Since the sales manager already knows how I viewed their delivery practices, I’ll go ahead and give the sales lady a good survey. My guess is she won’t be there this time next month, though.

28firefighter

graphicguy said:

Appreciate everyone’s thoughts. I know it’s a tough gig selling cars. But, if that’s your job, then be good at it. If you’re being paid to be good with customer service, I would think that would be impetus enough.

I get the feeling my Kia dealership is more transactional. They’re not looking any further than the next car over the curb, instead of trying to make certain that customer comes back.

I can’t believe they made much on my deal. End of year, big discount, probably the majority of whatever trunk money they had on the car was thrown at the deal. Probably a “mini” for the sales person. Didn’t make money on financing, as I didn’t finance. They didn’t even try to sell an extended warranty (tough sell given Kia’s standard warranty).

So, their only hope to make a decent profit would be to have me come back for service and/or to buy another car. They’re sort of short sighted.

Since the sales manager already knows how I viewed their delivery practices, I’ll go ahead and give the sales lady a good survey. My guess is she won’t be there this time next month, though.

Or a volume and/or survey bonus from Kia.

I would still leave comments in the box - there are folk at Corporate who look at them for just this reason.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

I can't believe the Lexus dealer kept my Mom's 2016 Cayenne with over 80K miles. They gave my parents $23K on the trade in.

https://www.lexusofmtkisco.com/used-Mt+Kisco-2016-Porsche-Cayenne-Base+NAVIGATION+PREMIUM+PACKAGE-WP1AA2A23GLA05987

Just about a 30% mark up from cost. I know that’s how they do it with regular cars, interesting to see them do it on high end as well.

nah. 30% is not how it is done at the majority of dealers. They tend to look for $4k-$5k most times, with some cheapos in the $1500 area. Percentages don't work because you have fixed costs regardless of vehicle value.

Most of the cars I’ve delivered where I know what the dealer paid us have a 30-35% difference between that and what Edmunds says is dealer retail.

So you’re saying asking for $7k more on that Porsche is swinging for the fence?

xwesx

28firefighter said:

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

breld said:

Michaell said:

kyfdx said:

@breld Now, what are the details on the GTI? 😏

SE with plaid interior...

Yup - SE manual, dark iron blue over plaid. 13k miles.

👍

Is that an offer, or has the cat got your tongue?

Still checking flight schedules, and drive times..

Ah yes. The long distance purchase scheme. I know it well.

It's a trap! Don't do it!

xwesx

graphicguy said:

I dunno...am I being too harsh?

Depends on if you're the owner or the dealership....

roadburner

graphicguy said:

Curious....did you test drive the GTS? If so, thoughts?

I’m planning to on Thursday; I’m still thinking it might be a little bigger than I prefer.

breld

Without ever having driven the Kia myself, I also would think it'll be a bit large for your preference.

The M2 on your list seems to be a natural progression for you, in my humble opinion.

roadburner

Kia dealer service is a concern for me as well- coupled with the fact that the servicing dealer would not be the selling dealer.

carnaught

Kia service and some of their dealerships really $uck. I had an Optima, with all the bells and whistles, and the car itself was good, but the service was another thing. The service waiting area was very third world complete with a CRT TV perched on top of a high dresser.

graphicguy

Good news about Kia dealer service, there are no less than 5 Kia dealers that are within 30 minutes of me. If one isn’t good, there’s another just up/down the road.

stickguy

I never took my Hyundai’s where I bought them. Or either Acura. Service people did not care in the least and always treated me well.

tjc78

I'm sure not taking my Volvo 90 mins away, when there is a dealer 15 mins away!

breld

My wife just got off the phone with VW Customer Care. They confirmed that they will cover the expense of the repair, but were very insistent that this was out of customer goodwill. They made it a point to say the indication was very clear that it was the result of driver misuse.

My wife obviously stated her disagreement with that conclusion, and proceeded to ask about what assurance can be provided that the failure won't happen again...because if she doesn't feel it's safe than she is just turning around and selling the car.

To which VW replied that if we were just planning on turning around and selling the car after the repair then they wouldn't cover it, since it's a goodwill gesture for our loyalty to the brand.

I'm livid.

But of course my wife wisely backtracked so that the repair will be covered.

Unbelievable.

stickguy

I would want pictures and to see parts because something had to have failed besides a clutch disk just wearing out.

explorerx4

Sounds VW wants the repair to be your history of the car, not their's.

roadburner

stickguy said:

I would want pictures and to see parts because something had to have failed besides a clutch disk just wearing out.

Agreed. Idiots.

explorerx4

If you think they would actually show you the real parts....

fintail

I'd put em on social media blast.

sda

explorerx4 said:

If you think they would actually show you the real parts....

I was going to suggest that as well. Show them the parts and clutch plate they replaced.

28firefighter

I would request the dealer show you the parts they removed so you can take pictures. In fact, I would offer to VW customer care that if they can show you conclusive visual proof it is driver misuse, you'll pay for the repair.

I'm guessing the broken parts will magically have been disposed of before that can happen. Unbelievable.

28firefighter

I agree with everyone here that something doesn't smell right about this clutch thing. But, I assume it is really hilly where you live and commute, right? I wonder if the premature wear is due to the VW hill assist not disengaging fast enough forcing your wife to have to hang onto the clutch longer?

stickguy

even if so that is really not enough miles/time to wear it out. And if you did, you would have normal worn out clutch symptoms like slipping. Going from perfectly normal, to a clutch pedal stuck on the floor and no engagement, indicates something catastrophically failed in the system. Clutch disks don't do that.

cdnpinhead

No wear items would result in the symptoms reported. The article that was posted a day or two ago outlined nicely what could cause the pedal to go to the floor and stay there, and the clutch disc isn't on there. The master cylinder, slave cylinder, linkage and throwout bearing are wear items, but there's no way to operate the vehicle to make them fail in under 10K miles.

I've driven manual transmissions since 1963, and this is pure BS. The service morons have no clue how a manual transmission with a real clutch works and/or they hope their victims/customers don't either.

explorerx4

Pretty sure the car couldn't move because the clutch pedal couldn't engage the clutch.

stickguy

technically I think the clutch pedal disengages the clutch. The return spring engages it.

explorerx4

@stickguy,
That makes sense, could have just stalled or not allow the car to move if car was in neutral.

omarman

Not trying to argue with VW Customer Care but I think the "gesture" they made in that conversation wasn't exactly "goodwill." But I'm glad they are going to make repairs for free.

28firefighter

I was just wondering aloud. You all know the mechanics better than I do. I’ve just read ridiculous things about the VW hill hold.

stickguy

entirely possible that could malfunction and somehow lead to extra wear. Though I assume it just works on the brakes (applies the parking brake?) so again back to maybe extra wear on the disk from slipping, but that still would not cause the problem they had.

corvette

I was about to ask just that - doesn't the VW have hill hold? Denver is hilly, but I think you'd have to try very hard to wear out a clutch in 9,000 miles with that feature. Nice that they're covering it, but also disappointing that it's "goodwill" and not because they concluded that the dealer made an incorrect diagnosis.

breld

corvette said:

I was about to ask just that - doesn't the VW have hill hold? Denver is hilly, but I think you'd have to try very hard to wear out a clutch in 9,000 miles with that feature. Nice that they're covering it, but also disappointing that it's "goodwill" and not because they concluded that the dealer made an incorrect diagnosis.

This is how we feel. We are by all means relieved that they are covering the repair, but can’t help but take offense that they qualify it with the conclusion that it was driver error.

I did speak with the service manager at the dealership this afternoon and I appreciated that he was the first VW individual to proclaim that this was highly unusual and couldn’t imagine how a competent driver could cause such a failure.

I get the sense he was the one who made the push to get it all covered.

Still shocked that it wasn’t the obvious first reaction though.

breld

And the circumstances were far from ideal for the clutch. She was going uphill at a slow pace with a lot of stop and go, in snowy conditions.

But still...I think that just means there was a defect somewhere just waiting to break.

breld

Again, thanks all for the attention and advice - I’ve copied much of it in an email to my wife so we can refer to it when speaking with the dealership and VW.

Oh...and the whole reason I called the service manager was to request pictures and video of the parts so we could talk through it. He was happy to oblige.

qbrozen

So, simply put (I think), when you release the clutch pedal, the clutch plate engages with the flywheel. The clutch plate has friction material on it, not unlike a brake pad. As that material wears away, the engagement point of the clutch travel actually gets HIGHER, not lower. In other words, you have to raise you foot more to make up that extra gap of the missing material. Now, we are talking a miniscule amount and, really, hydraulic clutches have pretty much eliminated that change in engagement height. But, the point is that worn out clutch material will never make the pedal go LOWER, as VW is suggesting. So I'd still insist that they explain how the failure you have experienced is caused by a worn clutch. Even if you have to ask to speak to a real mechanic at the dealership and not a service advisor. Seriously, this is a matter of principle at this point. You should want to prove this was a mechanical failure, especially if you were to keep it and it happens again.

28firefighter

I wouldn’t keep it.