Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

stickguy

I think it’s really way more than it costs, since such a large component is taxes. Which is why other countries are much higher, just more taxes.

What might be getting subsidized is roads, but that really us a public good

stickguy

So, watched this little video and really liked it. If I was to actually get a truck now (since the “mini” ones don’t exist yet) this really is the one that would fit us the best. I highly doubt I’d ever do serious off roading, and this is about the most I would tow. Plus the wife wouldn’t hate it! Just hard pass on the silly expensive plastic trim stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eOFD-8MzYs

sda

carnaught said:

Definitely would not want an EV if I lived now in the Greater LA area - numerous power outages there. Also a problem, among other things, if a belligerent country gets control of our power grid.

Hopefully it is only a localized power outage as gas pumps are electrically powered. When Hugo hit in 89 not being able to get gas because of downed powerlines was a huge hassle and a reality check.

qbrozen

xwesx said:

Well, if you're going to criticize EV subsidies, make sure you are not forgetting that the US heavily subsidizes "fossil" fuels, which is why we enjoy such a low price at the pump compared to many other parts of the world.

So, even though the prices are creeping up to/over (over here) $3.00 per gallon again, that's a heck of a lot cheaper than it "really" costs.

I’m more than a little confused on that. Where is the subsidizing coming in? I’m fairly sure stickguy is right. We just pay less taxes on it than some other countries. That is far from subsidizing, though.

carnaught

We’re taxed for gasoline at multiple levels of government, including federal, so doesn’t that go at least partially against being subsidized?

oldfarmer50

sda said:

stickguy said:

tjc78 said:

An electric would be tough for us, not so much at home but down at our campground. They gouge us for electric and charging a car there would cost almost double what it costs at home.

It’s 120 miles round trip, so I guess if don’t drive much while there it would be possible to make it home without a charge.

At any rate, unless there was a screaming lease on something I’ll stick with gas.

Most likely you would just plan a supplies run to a Walmart that has a charging station in the parking lot, and top it up while you shop.

If you could get a parking spot to charge it. I noticed at my last company parking lot, the same cars parked and charged there daily, hogging the spot. They were supposed to only be allowed to charge for 2 hrs or so and then move to another spot out of courtesy to allow others to do the same. But no.. The lot wasn't monitored well so there's that.

Ha ha that’s human nature, give something away for free and there’s an infinite demand. Make availability limited and somebody will try to hog it all. Did we learn nothing from Cabbage Patch dolls and PS 5?

Michaell

oldfarmer50 said:

sda said:

stickguy said:

tjc78 said:

An electric would be tough for us, not so much at home but down at our campground. They gouge us for electric and charging a car there would cost almost double what it costs at home.

It’s 120 miles round trip, so I guess if don’t drive much while there it would be possible to make it home without a charge.

At any rate, unless there was a screaming lease on something I’ll stick with gas.

Most likely you would just plan a supplies run to a Walmart that has a charging station in the parking lot, and top it up while you shop.

If you could get a parking spot to charge it. I noticed at my last company parking lot, the same cars parked and charged there daily, hogging the spot. They were supposed to only be allowed to charge for 2 hrs or so and then move to another spot out of courtesy to allow others to do the same. But no.. The lot wasn't monitored well so there's that.

Ha ha that’s human nature, give something away for free and there’s an infinite demand. Make availability limited and somebody will try to hog it all. Did we learn nothing from Cabbage Patch dolls and PS 5?

Or the first gen Miata, PT Cruiser, etc....

oldfarmer50

corvette said:

carnaught said:

Definitely would not want an EV if I lived now in the Greater LA area - numerous power outages there. Also a problem, among other things, if a belligerent country gets control of our power grid.

You could charge slowly at 120v with a gas powered portable generator. If they even allow gas generators in LA...

That’s the definition of irony.

oldfarmer50

xwesx said:

Well, if you're going to criticize EV subsidies, make sure you are not forgetting that the US heavily subsidizes "fossil" fuels, which is why we enjoy such a low price at the pump compared to many other parts of the world.

So, even though the prices are creeping up to/over (over here) $3.00 per gallon again, that's a heck of a lot cheaper than it "really" costs.

But since by and large that same fossil fuel is the means by which electricity is generated don’t those subsidies also flow to EVs?

cdnpinhead

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s the definition of irony.

I question whether irony is the correct word choice.

oldfarmer50

sda said:

carnaught said:

Definitely would not want an EV if I lived now in the Greater LA area - numerous power outages there. Also a problem, among other things, if a belligerent country gets control of our power grid.

Hopefully it is only a localized power outage as gas pumps are electrically powered. When Hugo hit in 89 not being able to get gas because of downed powerlines was a huge hassle and a reality check.

Well, at least theoretically you could store extra fuel for the cost of a $20 gas can vs. storing electricity with a $10,000 Tesla power wall.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

xwesx said:

Well, if you're going to criticize EV subsidies, make sure you are not forgetting that the US heavily subsidizes "fossil" fuels, which is why we enjoy such a low price at the pump compared to many other parts of the world.

So, even though the prices are creeping up to/over (over here) $3.00 per gallon again, that's a heck of a lot cheaper than it "really" costs.

I’m more than a little confused on that. Where is the subsidizing coming in? I’m fairly sure stickguy is right. We just pay less taxes on it than some other countries. That is far from subsidizing, though.

Not an expert but I do recall that oil companies get various depreciation allowances on their oil fields which result in significant tax reductions. You could call that a subsidy.

stickguy

That’s corporate welfare. You were a farmer. You know how subsidized agriculture is.

xwesx

stickguy said:

I think it’s really way more than it costs, since such a large component is taxes. Which is why other countries are much higher, just more taxes.

What might be getting subsidized is roads, but that really us a public good

The tax component is actually quite small. There are only five states in the union that have taxes in excess of $0.50 at the state level: Pennsylvania, California, Washington, Illinois, and New Jersey (in declining order). Federal is another $0.184.

The US Energy Information Administration (we have an agency for everything!) has a site for fuel taxes here.

Subsidies vary by type of fuel, but most of it is in the form of substantial tax reductions for exploration, reinvestment, and oil field depreciation (e.g., they pull a public resource out of the ground and get to count depreciation for the fact that they just pulled that resource out of the ground, so there is less remaining to pull out in the future).

So, any way you slice it, we all get a pretty good deal at the pump. You can bet that if the feds decide to seriously push electric, the price we pay at the pump will jump dramatically as the tax component balloons. At this point, we can thank those "subsidies" for paying for lots of lobbying to suppress such notions.

omarman

You can call it an indirect subsidy like when NY offered a $3B incentive plan to Amazon - not cash payouts - to build a new HQ with 50K new jobs. Some tried to explain to the opponents that NY didn't (and still doesn't) have $3B sitting around waiting to be spent on some other project. And it was already too late when the mayor explained that the Amazon deal would have produced, "$27 billion in new tax revenue to fuel priorities from transit to affordable housing — a nine-fold return on the taxes the city and state were prepared to forgo to win the headquarters.”

I know it gets pretty murky when looking at the various price tags linked to oil industry subsidies depending on what agency or group is reporting their own numbers. But there's still a huge difference between a direct $$$ subsidy versus indirect incentives including tax breaks. As well as the uncertain outcome - and $$$ impact - of moving away from oil to green energy. There's more than Brooklyn at stake.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

That’s corporate welfare. You were a farmer. You know how subsidized agriculture is.

No I don’t. I never got a dime. In fact when I did need some government help I was told “sell your farm and pay for it yourself”.

au1994

stickguy said:

So, watched this little video and really liked it. If I was to actually get a truck now (since the “mini” ones don’t exist yet) this really is the one that would fit us the best. I highly doubt I’d ever do serious off roading, and this is about the most I would tow. Plus the wife wouldn’t hate it! Just hard pass on the silly expensive plastic trim stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eOFD-8MzYs

I could do without that trim package but otherwise, it would fit my needs just fine. I like the towing capability should I ever need to move the boat and at 5k lbs it would handle my 21 footer. Interior looks good to me, I understand the infotainment to be a little tricky but all I need is to use Carplay. I think the dual function tail gate and trunk are cool!. Not too bad for 36k.

explorerx4

I think one of the arguments against Amazon's HQ in NYC was that a lot of people would have been displaced due to rising real estate prices.

xwesx

omarman said:

I know it gets pretty murky when looking at the various price tags linked to oil industry subsidies depending on what agency or group is reporting their own numbers. But there's still a huge difference between a direct $$$ subsidy versus indirect incentives including tax breaks. As well as the uncertain outcome - and $$$ impact - of moving away from oil to green energy. There's more than Brooklyn at stake.

I agree; there's a lot to it. My argument was only that if they didn't get the breaks, they would make up for it in charging more for the product. They will get their pound of flesh one way or another, and they can because the product itself is a linch pin.

xwesx

au1994 said:

I could do without that trim package. Otherwise, it would fit my needs just fine. I like the towing capability should I ever need to move the boat. At 5k lbs it would handle my 21 footer. Interior looks good to me, I understand the infotainment to be a little tricky but all I need is to use Carplay. Not too bad for 36k.

I didn't visit the link; is that a Ridgeline trim?

au1994

xwesx said:

au1994 said:

I could do without that trim package. Otherwise, it would fit my needs just fine. I like the towing capability should I ever need to move the boat. At 5k lbs it would handle my 21 footer. Interior looks good to me, I understand the infotainment to be a little tricky but all I need is to use Carplay. Not too bad for 36k.

I didn't visit the link; is that a Ridgeline trim?

Yes, the HPD (Honda Performance Development) package. Looks like it adds some graphics, flares and specific wheels and tires but nothing actually performance enhancing that I gathered.

andres3

xwesx said:

andres3 said:

xwesx said:

andres3 said:

This guys running the course 11 seconds faster than me; who should be more embarrassed, me or him? I love Spring Mountains track.

I'm not sure that either of you should. 11 seconds is a long time in racing, though.

I know, but it is a long 3.4 mile track, which counters how drastic 11 seconds is a bit (tames it a bit). But also, my car can be used as a daily, his can't

I downloaded "TRACK ADDICT" for the first time late in the weekend. Just the free version. Heard some good things about Harry's Lap Timer as the best app but it costs a bit. Slippery slope onward from here.

Yeah, and that's what I meant. You're probably running some excellent times for a "street car," and he's probably running respectable times for what his track car is. So, embarrassed? Naw. It's all good as long as there's a grin on your face at the end.

It was fun, and an R8 driver mistook me for a TTRS, so that was complimentary.

Early morning sessions are the best with the cold air feeding my turbo.

qbrozen

Some of you are confusing subsidy with tax break. HUGE difference, IMHO. It is one thing to charge someone less tax. It is entirely another to hand them a check that is made up of other people's taxes.

Look at it another way: you wouldn't call the tax deductions on your year-end taxes subsidies, right?

EVs are subsidized. It isn't a break on taxes, it is actually a government payout. Oil companies may pay less taxes through tax breaks, but they aren't getting an additional government payout for the fuel they produce.

qbrozen

Problem on the Chevy front.

GM rejected the contract due to incorrect taxes (surprise surprise). When they first called and explained, she said they’d send me a check after I visit DMV and then rewrite contract. Weird, but Ok.

Guess they couldn’t wait and I got a new contract for signing in a fedex today. There is an issue of them now charging me $188 more on the selling price. I think it was an honest mistake, as she tried to simplify but the math doesn’t work.

omarman

So, any way you slice it, we all get a pretty good deal at the pump. You can bet that if the feds decide to seriously push electric, the price we pay at the pump will jump dramatically as the tax component balloons.

Wow that's something that I really don't see discussed in go green topics. The push/pull factors will definitely take hold when we are forced encouraged to embrace the green revolution.

corvette

qbrozen said:

Problem on the Chevy front.

I think the ball is in their court to fix it, at this point, since you're driving "their" car with no valid contract and it's now hundreds of miles away from the selling dealership. A casual "I will abide by the terms of the original contract that we both agreed to, but I'm not signing anything else or doing anything else, come pick it up and unwind the deal if that doesn't work for you" might get things fixed very quickly.

corvette

Elliot Alvis' latest couple of YT videos have been particularly cringeworthy. Selling the Hellcat to free up capital for his channel, then buying a roached-out, bland, decontented early 2000s sedan to do random, asinine things to. I half expect him to set it on fire in the next video.

stickguy

similar to when I bought our RDX in 2012, and discovered a week in that they gave me the wrong car (the one they registered to me was still sitting on the lot). That caused panic on their end. Only minor angst on my end, in case I had an accident and had to explain it to the insurance company! Unwinding it all was not plausible so they were lucky I was willing to drive back up (2 hours) to swap for the correct unit.

On the Camaro, I assume they want more taxes out of you? so the revised contract means you will be paying more? If if was less, I doubt they would be making much fuss about it.

ab348

The other thing discussed up here about taxes and electric cas is road maintenance. Right now most of the fuel tax collected is supposed to go towards road maintenance and construction. It's not quite that straightforward as there is no statute requiring that, and in fact in most years the amount spent on roads is more than the gasoline tax collected, but it is close enough.

But what happens when electrics become a significant portion of the public's vehicle fleet? That money will need to come from somewhere and owners of full electrics or PHEVs won't like paying a much larger registration fee to make up for the difference.

ab348

corvette said:

qbrozen said:

Problem on the Chevy front.

I think the ball is in their court to fix it, at this point, since you're driving "their" car with no valid contract and it's now hundreds of miles away from the selling dealership. A casual "I will abide by the terms of the original contract that we both agreed to, but I'm not signing anything else or doing anything else, come pick it up and unwind the deal if that doesn't work for you" might get things fixed very quickly.

Except that (I presume) QB paid to have the car shipped to him so that would be money down the drain.

corvette

ab348 said:

corvette said:

qbrozen said:

Problem on the Chevy front.

I think the ball is in their court to fix it, at this point, since you're driving "their" car with no valid contract and it's now hundreds of miles away from the selling dealership. A casual "I will abide by the terms of the original contract that we both agreed to, but I'm not signing anything else or doing anything else, come pick it up and unwind the deal if that doesn't work for you" might get things fixed very quickly.

Except that (I presume) QB paid to have the car shipped to him so that would be money down the drain.

Right, I'd ask them to reimburse that, as well, in connection with unwinding the deal.

stickguy

good luck with all that. But it certainly is in the dealers best interest to not have to go down that road. I assume somewhere in the signed paperwork they have a way to avoid that (meaning buyer agrees to any changes related to taxes or government fee since they made a "best estimate" or some such thing.

stickguy

ab348 said:

The other thing discussed up here about taxes and electric cas is road maintenance. Right now most of the fuel tax collected is supposed to go towards road maintenance and construction. It's not quite that straightforward as there is no statute requiring that, and in fact in most years the amount spent on roads is more than the gasoline tax collected, but it is close enough.

But what happens when electrics become a significant portion of the public's vehicle fleet? That money will need to come from somewhere and owners of full electrics or PHEVs won't like paying a much larger registration fee to make up for the difference.

road taxes was already an issue I think when hybrids became popular. It has never really been equitable (as in people that drive more pay more) but at least in general, heavier vehicles should pay more (by getting lower gas mileage).

I saw something a few days ago on the news that the PA governor wanted to do away with the gas tax, and pay for road maintenance and projects through some other means (didn't watch the actual piece to see what that was). I assume that there would still be gas taxes though!

Electric vehicles should be paying into it somehow though. Unless you can implement a miles based charged (really can't do that IMO) a registration surcharge is about the best you can do.

Edit: Looked it up. Seems to just be a vision now. Considering how little constructive (and without major graft) gets done in PA, I doubt this commission will have much success.

https://www.governor.pa.gov/newsroom/governor-wolf-commits-to-phasing-out-gas-tax-announces-commission-to-develop-funding-solutions/

xwesx

In Oregon, there was talk a while ago about changing road taxation to a use model, and the idea was to have some sort of gizmo in cars that just reported miles periodically (like modern electric meters). Oh, man, the uproar on that one! I'm not sure how universally panned it was, but I know the eastern part of the state was frothing at the mouth.

xwesx

corvette said:

qbrozen said:

Problem on the Chevy front.

I think the ball is in their court to fix it, at this point, since you're driving "their" car with no valid contract and it's now hundreds of miles away from the selling dealership. A casual "I will abide by the terms of the original contract that we both agreed to, but I'm not signing anything else or doing anything else, come pick it up and unwind the deal if that doesn't work for you" might get things fixed very quickly.

How frustrating! Hopefully they can get it sorted out. Is that change in selling price before tax? I wonder what would cause that to change? Grrr.

You better go take it around the block again to ease the tension.

stickguy

wait until they pick it up and find out it already needs new rear tires.

pensfan83

In PA mileage use could just be gathered during annual inspection and when received by the state and compared YoY the owner gets billed. Easy.

rny421

Alright, time to share!! Interesting timing given the heavy EV discussions here in the last 24 hours. Regardless of your opinion on electric vehicles and the government's role, at the end of the day I've got a punch to report, and that's what we're here for, right?

2021 Audi Etron
$71K MSRP
Black interior and exterior with the black optic package (I'm probably the only one here who loves this combo)
36 Months, 30K Mile lease
Total lease cost equals out to $675/mo all in, 8% tax, acquisition, disposition, and lease broker fee, etc.

So far I love the car. I have so much learning to do though, lots of menus and adjustments that can be made. I actually like that it drives like a normal Audi, it just happens to have an electric motor. We'll see how it works for me over the next three years. I had a 60A home charging system installed this week, so that will help.

Carvana gave me $13.3K for my Acura, and picked it up today. I felt it was a very strong offer.

Sorry for the bad picture, I'll get more later.

corvette

Very nice! I usually prefer more color, but it might look neat to tint the front windows to give it a solid black look (the wheels being the only contrast)?

nyccarguy

Congrats on the punch! Beautiful car. The Black with Black Optic Package looks sharp! Looking forward to hearing your EV ownership impressions.

How was it working with a broker?

nyccarguy

My wife had to have surgery yesterday to repair a torn labrum in her left hip. I took her into the city yesterday and picked her up today in her Pilot. I had to make a few deliveries, including these gates this afternoon. Maybe I don’t need a pickup after all.

rny421

@nyccarguy - The broker was good - responsive, and not pushy. When he ran my numbers, he honestly had a tone of "Eh, this isn't gonna work" because of the fact that I wasn't eligible for Costco, our high tax rate, etc. made the payment higher than it could've been, but I still felt that it was a good deal (less than 1% MSRP). Does anyone know how these relationships work between the dealers and brokers? I can't understand why a dealership would want to work with a broker to give out a pre-determined cheap lease deal.

The handoff from the broker to the dealer felt a bit informal, and I had my guard up with the dealer, as I was afraid they'd try to pull a fast one and change the numbers, but fortunately the deal came in as quoted by the broker. Long story short, I'd definitely go through a broker again.

corvette

@nyccarguy - Ouch! Hope she is doing better and that she didn't have to ride along for the delivery!

@rny421 - with the Toyota trucks, it seems to be about volume bonuses paid by Toyota corporate/regional. The broker sends the dealer a ton of volume of no-hassle customers so they can attain the bonuses, in exchange for the dealer providing rock-bottom pricing.

qbrozen

xwesx said:

corvette said:

qbrozen said:

Problem on the Chevy front.

I think the ball is in their court to fix it, at this point, since you're driving "their" car with no valid contract and it's now hundreds of miles away from the selling dealership. A casual "I will abide by the terms of the original contract that we both agreed to, but I'm not signing anything else or doing anything else, come pick it up and unwind the deal if that doesn't work for you" might get things fixed very quickly.

How frustrating! Hopefully they can get it sorted out. Is that change in selling price before tax? I wonder what would cause that to change? Grrr.

You better go take it around the block again to ease the tension.

Oh, I’m not worried at all. I tried to explain several times that they weren’t doing the tax right. They said “well, you’ll just pay the difference at the DMV.” Yeah, right.

GM said “no go. You have to collect the right taxes.” But the difference is all of $91. They are 6% and we are 6.625%. Somehow she came up with $7/mo more. Uhhhh....nope.

The deal is, she tried to use the same cap cost as before, which included the sale price plus first month plus the tax on the incentive, plus a $10 title charge. Then a monthly tax was added after. When she redid it, she used the same cap cost BUT this time it included only first month. So now, instead of the incentive tax in the top line, she included it in the bottom line with the total NJ tax.

I emailed her and the salesperson showing how using the same cap cost but moving tax to the bottom line winds up increasing the selling price we had agreed to. Like I said, I think it is an honest mistake. But the payment should be $2 more, not $7.

fintail

I think WA has an EV registration fee/tax of ~$100, which is probably still a bit less than the average road user pays in gasoline tax in a year.

Regarding gas taxes, cheap gas keeps the economy moving - in a nation dependent on both trucking and "affordable" housing often some distance from employment and commercial areas, combined with a general dearth of public transport (that would be socialism!), then add a dose of overall wage stagnation or even regression compared with numerous cost of living inputs, cheap gas puts food on the table.

qbrozen said:

Some of you are confusing subsidy with tax break. HUGE difference, IMHO. It is one thing to charge someone less tax. It is entirely another to hand them a check that is made up of other people's taxes.

Look at it another way: you wouldn't call the tax deductions on your year-end taxes subsidies, right?

EVs are subsidized. It isn't a break on taxes, it is actually a government payout. Oil companies may pay less taxes through tax breaks, but they aren't getting an additional government payout for the fuel they produce.

nyccarguy

corvette said:

@nyccarguy - Ouch! Hope she is doing better and that she didn't have to ride along for the delivery!

@rny421 - with the Toyota trucks, it seems to be about volume bonuses paid by Toyota corporate/regional. The broker sends the dealer a ton of volume of no-hassle customers so they can attain the bonuses, in exchange for the dealer providing rock-bottom pricing.

She’ll be better soon. It’s quite a lengthy and extensive recovery. No. She didn’t have to ride along for the delivery;)-

nyccarguy

@rny21

The broker business is interesting. There are fee based brokers and no fee brokers. As @corvette said, these dealerships get paid big bucks for monthly, quarterly, & yearly bonuses. Tens of thousands of dollars. You pay the broker a fee. The broker works for you and gets you an incredible, no hassle deal. The broker gets paid and the dealership gets that many more punches to add toward its bonus.

Some of these no fee brokers are given a price to sell the car at and sell it for more. They make straight commission and or are paid a small fee by the dealership.

Is it possible to meet or beat a broker deal and save yourself the couple hundred dollar broker fee? Yes. @tjc78 used a broker’s numbers to snag himself a Volvo S60. When the lease was up on his wife’s Enclave, dealers would t touch the broker’s price, so he paid up. About a year ago, my parents were in the market for a Lexus RX 350. I looked at the discount the brokers were offering, got the money factor, & residual from our handsome hosts here on Edmunds a d fired off a few email inquiries. One dealer emailed me a detailed quote right away. His selling price was 10% off sticker instead of the 11% off the broker was advertising. I got lucky.

Who’s you go through BTW? If you just want to mention the handle, most of us will figure out who it is.

stickguy

sounds like some of the brokers are basically just "free lance" salespeople for the dealership. Otherwise, look at them like a lead generation service that they don't have to pay for? But anyone that can bring them 10-20 deals per month that take no overhead really (salespeople handling, or commissions) sounds like a winner for the dealership.

xwesx

rny421 said:

2021 Audi Etron
Black interior and exterior with the black optic package (I'm probably the only one here who loves this combo)

Congrats!

Blackout looks awesome! I just wouldn't want to "own" one myself. Admiring is one thing, upkeep is something ELSE.

xwesx

nyccarguy said:

My wife had to have surgery yesterday to repair a torn labrum in her left hip. I took her into the city yesterday and picked her up today in her Pilot. I had to make a few deliveries, including these gates this afternoon. Maybe I don’t need a pickup after all.

Nope; you need a minivan!