Should be no lag with a stick ... as long as you rev past the lag before "de-clutching."
Sure, but I was a bit hesitant to do that with the salesman in the passenger seat. And, the dealer is in a busy part of town, so I didn't want to rocket past traffic doing 50-60MPH and the car in 2nd gear.
We have nearly the identical car in stock just priced a little higher because it just came in three days ago. If someone came in and offered me $18,000 for it now I would try to bump then to $18,800 or so but would probably settle for around $18,000 when the dust settled and that is with the Volvo CPO warranty.
If it sits around for a month or so like there car probably has then maybe I go to $17,500 like brozen said.
I wish I could get these boats out of my mind! I'm sure I'm better off with my Park Ave, but I still feel a morbid sort of attraction to these throwbacks.
As if your PA Ultra isn't big enough, you want to get that?
Oy!
Oh, and the boss shot down the plan to sell the L300 ... she thinks it's better to wait until the ION is paid off (about 16-17 months) before I go shopping.
Told her that I'm fine with that, but that I'll probably be getting some sort of occasional toy ... RWD and / or convertible. Keep the L300 for daily duty and keep the other car for nice days.
So, check back with me in 2011, and I'll be in the market at that time.
As if your PA Ultra isn't big enough, you want to get that?
Oy!
I know, it's kinda of hard to rationalize the attraction. I think the Park Ave is better looking, more luxurious, a bit more economical, and has more legroom (although the Roadmaster is adequate). But for some reason those Roadmasters just appeal to me. Maybe it's just the full-frame, V-8, RWD simplicity of them, although I'm sure they still have enough modern crap in them that's expensive to fix when it breaks.
I'm just gonna admire this one from afar, though. It just doesn't make sense to go from a 10 year old, 57K mile car, to one that's 4 years older with twice the miles. I intend to make my Park Ave last as long as possible, although I'm sure my eye will wander from time to time!
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who secretly admires those old body-on-frame barges (er.. cars I guess). I'm with Mark ... the Fleetwood would be the one to own.
I did a search on auto trader online for a '93-96 Fleetwood, using a 50 mile radius from my zipcode (20769). Only one car came up, oddly enough, less than 2 miles from my house. Only problem is, it's a limo! I like big cars, but I don't know if I need something THAT big!
That limo is nice, but probably too large for even you or lemko!
Just got back from the local repair shop ... had to run a few errands over lunch, so thought I'd stop in and get a quote to replace the timing belt and water pump on the L300, which has 94K miles.
Gulp!
Parts and labor (5+ hours) will total over $1100.
The timing belt kit itself is $440.
I knew it would be expensive, but I was thinking maybe around $600-800.
I knew it would be expensive, but I was thinking maybe around $600-800.
Is this normal?
I think a lot of it depends on how buried the water pump is. And with the L300 having that somewhat oddball engine, maybe parts are more expensive and the labor is more intense?
To do it right, you should probably replace the belt, water pump, tensioner, and idlers; also might as well do the serpentine belt and tensioner while you're in there... I can easily see it being $1100.
The whole timing belt service on a late model volvo with the five cylinder engine is 350-450 at our dealership and you know they are making a fair bit of money on that.
$1,100 could be right though if the kit itself is that much. What does the kit include and what else are they replacing?
Well, the wife is on her way home from work, so I'll show her the estimate and see what she says.
My guess is she'll want to make the investment to keep the car running well. After all, $1100 for maintenance is cheaper than $15-20K for a new / used car.
After all, I just dropped $500 on new tires a few weeks ago and close to $300 on an O2 sensor back in Nov / Dec.
Plus, I get an intermittent warning light on my dash that may require a new transmission solenoid to address - I've been told anywhere between $300-500 for that.
As far as not bothering with the replacement, I guess I should find out if my V6 is an interference engine or not .. if not, I may see how long I can go
As far as not bothering with the replacement, I guess I should find out if my V6 is an interference engine or not .. if not, I may see how long I can go
Unfortunately, that 3.0 is an interference engine. I just looked at the Gates timing belt manual, and it shows a little asterisk next to it. It also shows a 100,000 mile service interval.
That's steep for not including the tensioner or anything else. At 90k, it's probably worthwhile to do the tensioner.
My dad had an issue with the Beetle he used to own, took it to the dealer, asked them to do the 100k timing belt service, and they only changed the belt. The tensioner locked up at 120k--thankfully, I was able to stop the engine before damage was done. Dealer was no help, towed it to an independent and had a new belt, tensioner, water pump, and idlers installed. :lemon:
Was gonna buy one of these this past summer and trade in my '06 Civic, as I thought the S40 had the traditional great seats but this was not the case. They were as hard as the wife's Mazda 3s, the same car underneath basically but with the 5 cylinder engine, and worse than my Civic's. I test drove '06's, '07's, '08's and a brand new '09 and all the seats were underwhelming. Nice drivers but all the used one's had paint issues or interior issues that made the asking prices unrealistic.
Ended up keeping my Civic and happy I did. Just hit 26k on the way home and the car still puts a smile on my face. Figure I've still got another 7 years with the amount I drive and with retirement coming later this year, I'll be driving even less miles.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
You have to figure a shop is going to mark up the parts to retail... You'll always be able to find them cheaper, yourself..
But, that water pump for $159? geeeeezzzz..
I'd try the Saturn service department, if they are still in business... dealer service is a lot more competitive than it used to be... (who am I kidding? I'd trade it in..)
Well, the wife was none too happy with the $1100 estimate from the local indy shop. No word back from the former Saturn dealer yet ... perhaps on Monday.
So .... since my wife and daughter decided to catch a movie this afternoon, I thought I'd take the opportunity to visit a few dealers.
In reverse order of visits ....
1) Mitsu / Kia - salesman directed me to a leftover '09 Kia Optima EX, which I decided to test drive. 2.4L 4-cyl, 5-speed auto, leather. Nice car, but a bit bland, which wasn't helped by the color combo (white w/ beige leather). Reminded me of my Saturn, just not quite as powerful. No sunroof or Bluetooth, but both an Aux and USB port. $22K sticker, salesman thought I could get it for around $18K.
This was one of 3 '09 Optimas - one LX, one EX and one EX-V6. All available for around $4K off sticker. Also looked at a couple of Kia Souls, as well as the sportback Mitsu Lancer.
2) Hyundai - no test drives, just a look see at the new Tuscon as well as the Elantra Touring. Tuscon is a nice looking vehicle, but a bit pricey. GLS models stickered at around $24K, while the Limited was closer to $30K. These only come with 4-cyl engines, so those price tags seem pretty steep to me. The Elantra Touring, OTOH, was a pretty nice piece of kit for about $20K.
3) Subaru - again, no test drives - in fact, wasn't even approached by a salesman on this lot (on a Saturday?). They had a couple of used Imprezas - one 2.5i Premium sedan, one Outback Sport. Nice, but kinda pedestrian both inside and out. About the only plus I see for Subaru is the AWD.
4) Mazda - since Mazda is running a 0% / 60 mo incentive on the 3, I thought I'd pop in and see. Also, I qualify for S-plan pricing, which might help a bit. I'll admit that I wasn't too aware of the different engine / trim level combos. After some discussion with the (helpful) salesman, he pulled around a 3i (2.0L) Touring (middle trim level. Auto transmission (5-speed w/ sport shift), nicely equipped but no leather or sunroof (must step up to the Grand Touring trim level to get those). Sticker price just under $20K.
Frankly, I was pretty impressed, even though the 2.0L only puts out 148HP. The car felt nice a tight, much more sporty (obviously) than my Saturn. Fit and finish were good as well, and Bluetooth is standard. No standard USB jack, but an iPod kit is available as an accessory.
It's amazing that an up close and personal look at these cars identified some interesting differences. The Kia and the Mazda both had struts for the trunk, while the Subaru only had hinges that would interfere with the luggage (I play golf, so having enough room in the trunk for a set or two of golf clubs is important).
My search parameters are:
-- Under $20K (I might be able to bump that by 1 or 2 thou for the right car) -- New or used (no more than 2-3 years old and under, oh, 35K miles) -- Haven't made a final decision on stick vs. auto - the new crop of sport shift autoboxes are pretty nice, and there isn't a mileage penalty one usually associates with an automatic anymore -- Also haven't made a final decision regarding AWD - again, between ABS, TCS and ESC, I don't know that having AWD for 10 days of poor weather really makes sense. I've lived in Colorado for 16+ years and have only had 4WD / AWD as my daily driver for maybe a couple of those years. -- Ditto body style. I went into this thinking that I'd prefer anything but a 4-door sedan, but with the Mazda 3 5 door costing, on average $1500-2000 more than a comparable 4-door sedan, I'm rethinking that perspective.
If (and this is a big if) I do this, I'd trade in the L300 for the sales tax benefit and kick in another grand or so in cash. I'm hoping I can get $4K for the Saturn, so a $20K ceiling would mean financing $15K, which would give me a pretty reasonable payment.
I appreciate everyone allowing me the opportunity to dump all this out into this post. If anything, I'm more confused than before. Keep the Saturn and invest $1500 or so into maintenance / repairs, or take on a new car payment? If I dump the Saturn, what do I get?
I also have a small confession to make ... for the past 18 months, I've been delivering pizzas part time - 3 or 4 nights a week - for some extra cash. So, even though I've been working from home, the pizza gig has meant that I've been putting about 12-13K miles a year on my car. The Saturn has been averaging around 19-21 MPG during this time, which is almost all city driving. I'm hoping that a new ride might improve upon that mileage number a bit.
I'm sure the feedback I get to this post will be all over the map .. but, bring it on. No guarantees that I'll take any specific advice, but it is all welcome.
I enjoy the spirited bantering here on Edmunds, and think of all of you as my virtual friends.
I enjoyed the test drive I took late last year in a manual transmission Elantra Touring. Seemed to have a lot of bang for buck. The Mazda 3 hatch didn't grab us for some reason.
Hard to beat a Subaru in snow country, but there's a mpg hit (and they aren't that cheap).
I might revisit the Elantra Touring ... I sat in one at the auto show here in Denver last year, and was pretty impressed.
I agree with you on the Subaru observations .. MPG for most Subies is around 20 city, 27-28 highway. But, the Mazda 3s (2.5L engine) gets 21/29; the 3i gets 24/33 (auto). Also, price is a bit high for most new Subarus, so I'm leaning towards used - I found an '09 Impreza Prem sedan with 19K miles for $16K at a dealer in Co. Springs.
One last observation ... the wife, even though she doesn't drive my car very often, has one gripe with the Saturn, which is the low seating position. Granted, compared to the VUE she drives, most any car will make her feel like she's sitting on the ground, but if I could find something that had a slightly higher seating position, that would be a plus - hence, the gravitation towards Subarus.
I know that the interior of these are pretty crude - TMV shows about $15K, so the asking price is a bit high. But, its AWD and pretty sharp looking in black.
However, it's about as far away as my search criteria allowed (49 out of 50 miles), and, I wonder about the reliability. These all have the 2.4L with the CVT, right?
I had high hopes for the Caliber when it came out, but after seeing them up more close, sitting in them, and driving a few of them (just around a test course at the Carlisle PA Mopar show), I just wasn't that impressed. My main beef with the interior was that it felt claustrophobic, and WAY too plasticky. It didn't feel like it was going to fall apart, but some vinyl or soft-touch here and there, or some fabric on something other than just the seats would be nice.
And yeah, 2.4 with a CVT. I haven't really heard anything about that powertrain, good or bad. The 2.4 makes 172 hp, and I think it was a joint venture between Mitsubishi, Hyundai, and Chrysler. At least I think so. I hope this isn't just the old 2.4 that they used to use in old Sebring/Stratus sedans and the convertible. Back in 2003 my Dad and I drove a new Stratus with that engine, and both thought it was pretty crude. Rough, noisy, nasty sounding, and not all that fast.
As for fast, calling the Cailber an "R/T" is a bit of a slap in the face. Edmunds tested a 2007 and got 0-60 in 10.1 seconds. I think a Matrix, which is probably this thing's closest competitor, did it in around 11. So it's not snail-slow, but just not worthy to wear a badge that says "R/T" on it!
I agree though, it does look pretty sharp in black. Might not be bad, if you can get it for a good price.
Okay so I would nix the '09 Optima because you are buying a car that is known for depreciation that is already a year old and closer to 2 model years old. There is better stuff out there.
My sister has a previous generation Mazda3 mid-level sedan/automatic and she loves it, and one of my friends here in Michigan had a BASE Mazda3 sedan (crank windows, etc) and upgraded to the Mazda3 touring hatch with the 2.3l and a manual trans. She too is stoked. You can get a Mazda3 with the 2.5l 4 and a 6 speed manual transmission, which is somewhat tempting for me, like the old Focus ST. Would you be more interested in a sedan or the hatch?
We have a Legacy wagon and my main regret is not getting a fancier one. The car is fun to drive (its a manual), gets good mileage, is phenomenal in snow, etc, just wish we had heated seats, sunroof and okay, turbo. Its too bad they don't make it anymore.
In thinking some more, you might be barking up the wrong Hyundai tree. A Genesis coupe starts at about $22k sticker. I'd be shocked if that didn't move down a little with some conversation, and the base car has about everything. That gets you a Mistubishi Eclipse GSX to Lancer EVO to whatever 2.0 l turbo 4 cylinder. I think that is the best bang for the buck they have out there right now.
I looked at a Genesis coupe at the last carshow. Nice car, looks great, good interior. But make sure you fit...I'm 6'2" and my head was hitting the ceiling no matter how I set it up. Disappointing. I fit okay in the new Mustang, though...
The new new Mustang with the 300+ hp, 30mpg hwy V6 is pretty sweet. I can't wait to take a ride in one of those. The new Mustangs have a lot of performance, but they aren't the crazy bargain they used to be in the past. I think they still offer a lot of bang for the buck and do well in the performance value equation, especially compared to things like the Corvette and even the Camaro. I like the idea of having the drive wheels in the back, but I really want a sedan.
I showed my wife the brochure of the Mazda 3 .. she was intrigued, to say the least. I asked her if she would drive it to work and she didn't say yes or no - I told her that it would get better mileage than the VUE and we could keep miles off the VUE as it's our family car on the weekends.
The one feature she liked was that on the Grand Touring model, it comes with power leather seats with memory. She's always griping at me every time I drive the VUE how she has to readjust everything when she gets back behind the wheel.
I drove a 3 sedan yesterday ... the hatch is approx 1500-2000 higher in price and it's not something I have to have. A 3s GT auto starts around $22K w/o options.
kplacer - I've thought about a Fusion or Malibu - in fact, as a current Saturn owner, I qualify for a $1K incentive on any GM product. Fact of the matter is, I'm not sure I want to go mid size again - even though both cars get better mileage than the 3 with an automatic, I kinda like the fun factor the 3 offers.
andre - I'd have to sit in a Caliber to make a final decision, but, the cheap side of me thinks that an AWD car with 15K on it for about $15K isn't that bad of a deal. I'd have to find out how much warranty is left. But, I have the same feeling about the Caliber that I do about Subaru - what am I willing to sacrifice to get AWD?
As an alternative to the Caliber, which I am not really a fan of, maybe you could scope out the Jeep Patriot. It is built on the same platform as the Caliber but to me looks infinitely better. I had one as a rental a while back and quite liked it.
I thought the engine was harsh in the used Elantra I test drove. It's not terribly powerful, especially in wagon form, so you'll be hearing a lot of the engine. You may be disappointed going from a V6 midsize sedan to an Elantra or Caliber.
Comparing a $15k Caliber AWD to a Subie is a no brainer to me. A new Impreza starts at what, $18K-$19K MSRP? And in the NW, getting a Subie for invoice isn't too hard...even I've done it. Anyhow, for a $3k difference, you get a better AWD system, better interior quality, better driving dynamics, WAY better resale, and its new with a warranty. It costs more, but you get more, and you'll get more for it when you move on. And seriously, a Chrysler with a CVT? Is anyone else feeling twitchy just saying it?
I agree with you on the Mustang. The V6 sounds like the way to go. A 300hp RWD car that gets up to 30mpg hwy and has an available track pack priced in the mid-20's...what's not to like? I think the 2010 refresh looks nice too, and I've never been a Mustang guy at all. The world is a-changing.
you are in the worst situation. You want something, but your requirements are all over the place, and you don't really need anything.
Been there, done that many times!
Financially, you are probably better off doing the maintenance, and getting another 1-2 years out of the saturn. If it is only worth 4K now, it won't depreciate much if at all. And getting a brand new car to beat up delivering pizza may not be the greatest idea.
But I think you are doing the right thing. Look at and drive a variety of stuff, to see what you actually like/want. Once you have that nailed down, then you can do the $$ analysis.
I am more partial to used these days, but it is much harder to find what you want that way (unless you go for a recent CPO used).
In your case, look at a matrix/vibe. I was shocked at how roomy and nice those were last year when I was looking. Certainly equivalent, but more cargo room, to the Mazda. Maybe not as "sporty" though, but cheaper.
I would also rather go slightly used or a little smaller to get more features (like a moonroof).
I always wonder why do people trade-in their cars at less than 80% of the private sale value? I have talked to a few people and the common answer that I get is that people dont want to waste time showing their car to 50 different parties and the hassle involved in it. My counter argument is that if you price your car at about 90% of the private sale value, it will sell fairly quickly and you still end up getting about 10% more. I have done that for my last car and I had to show it to 2 parties and it was sold in less than half the day after it was listed in the local paper. Not bad for an extra ~$900 in my book. Just curious about what others think.
Garfield, it can be a real hassle if you don't have time to sell it yourself. And, 10% profit?? That's not worth it when you consider the sales tax savings on trading.
I've done both selling myself but I mostly trade them in. I just traded my '06 LR3 for a '10 LR4. I was only going to be in town for 4 weeks and I didn't want to mess with selling, especially, if it was going to several weeks. I wanted to test the new car for a while before I left town again to make sure it was OK. I drove the new car 500 miles of city driving before I took it on a cross-country trip of 1,800 miles.
Mark
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
Comments
Much more mainstream here in Colorado ... I suspect many folks buy Subies over Camcorditas because of the AWD.
Strange. Should be no lag with a stick ... as long as you rev past the lag before "de-clutching." :P
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Sure, but I was a bit hesitant to do that with the salesman in the passenger seat. And, the dealer is in a busy part of town, so I didn't want to rocket past traffic doing 50-60MPH and the car in 2nd gear.
Just blame it on unintended acceleration, especially since Toyota now owns part of Subaru...
I typically scare the hell out of any salesman who dares ride along with me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My Choices:
S4
Mitsubishi Evo
WRX STi
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If it sits around for a month or so like there car probably has then maybe I go to $17,500 like brozen said.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Oy!
Oh, and the boss shot down the plan to sell the L300 ... she thinks it's better to wait until the ION is paid off (about 16-17 months) before I go shopping.
Told her that I'm fine with that, but that I'll probably be getting some sort of occasional toy ... RWD and / or convertible. Keep the L300 for daily duty and keep the other car for nice days.
So, check back with me in 2011, and I'll be in the market at that time.
Unless my lottery numbers hit!
Oy!
I know, it's kinda of hard to rationalize the attraction. I think the Park Ave is better looking, more luxurious, a bit more economical, and has more legroom (although the Roadmaster is adequate). But for some reason those Roadmasters just appeal to me. Maybe it's just the full-frame, V-8, RWD simplicity of them, although I'm sure they still have enough modern crap in them that's expensive to fix when it breaks.
I'm just gonna admire this one from afar, though. It just doesn't make sense to go from a 10 year old, 57K mile car, to one that's 4 years older with twice the miles. I intend to make my Park Ave last as long as possible, although I'm sure my eye will wander from time to time!
Which is the point of why we're posting in this forum!
I'm sure that either version is available with no miles hidden in a garage somewhere waiting to be found!
Mark
There aren't any pics of it, but it would look kinda like this, only in black.
Just got back from the local repair shop ... had to run a few errands over lunch, so thought I'd stop in and get a quote to replace the timing belt and water pump on the L300, which has 94K miles.
Gulp!
Parts and labor (5+ hours) will total over $1100.
The timing belt kit itself is $440.
I knew it would be expensive, but I was thinking maybe around $600-800.
Is this normal?
Is this normal?
I think a lot of it depends on how buried the water pump is. And with the L300 having that somewhat oddball engine, maybe parts are more expensive and the labor is more intense?
$1,100 could be right though if the kit itself is that much. What does the kit include and what else are they replacing?
Water pump $169.99
Timing belt kit $439.99
Hybrid antifreeze $14.99
Labor $400.82
Shop supply / taxes $81.56
Total $1122.34
Not sure what the "timing belt kit" includes.
Yes, I'm sure that the complexity of the 54 degree V6 is contributing to the cost.
I love it ... the depreciation of an American manufacturer and the maintenance costs of a European make.
Timing belt
Bracket and 2 idlers (?)
Bearing for pulley
Seals
The tensioner is an additional $200-300 for the part itself and is not part of the $1100 quote.
I'm gonna call a Saturn dealer (er, "service center") and see what they quote.
don't bother (do you feel lucky, punk?) or,
sell it and get something else.
you know what I would choose!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
sell it and get something else.
you know what I would choose!
Well, the wife is on her way home from work, so I'll show her the estimate and see what she says.
My guess is she'll want to make the investment to keep the car running well. After all, $1100 for maintenance is cheaper than $15-20K for a new / used car.
After all, I just dropped $500 on new tires a few weeks ago and close to $300 on an O2 sensor back in Nov / Dec.
Plus, I get an intermittent warning light on my dash that may require a new transmission solenoid to address - I've been told anywhere between $300-500 for that.
As far as not bothering with the replacement, I guess I should find out if my V6 is an interference engine or not .. if not, I may see how long I can go
Unfortunately, that 3.0 is an interference engine. I just looked at the Gates timing belt manual, and it shows a little asterisk next to it.
My dad had an issue with the Beetle he used to own, took it to the dealer, asked them to do the 100k timing belt service, and they only changed the belt. The tensioner locked up at 120k--thankfully, I was able to stop the engine before damage was done. Dealer was no help, towed it to an independent and had a new belt, tensioner, water pump, and idlers installed. :lemon:
Ended up keeping my Civic and happy I did. Just hit 26k on the way home and the car still puts a smile on my face. Figure I've still got another 7 years with the amount I drive and with retirement coming later this year, I'll be driving even less miles.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
component kit with seals
idler pulley
tensioner assembly
Oh yeah... and Here is the water pump for just $60.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But, that water pump for $159? geeeeezzzz..
I'd try the Saturn service department, if they are still in business... dealer service is a lot more competitive than it used to be... (who am I kidding? I'd trade it in..)
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It is examples like these that make me want to call my father and thank him for teaching me how to do all of this on my own.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
So .... since my wife and daughter decided to catch a movie this afternoon, I thought I'd take the opportunity to visit a few dealers.
In reverse order of visits ....
1) Mitsu / Kia - salesman directed me to a leftover '09 Kia Optima EX, which I decided to test drive. 2.4L 4-cyl, 5-speed auto, leather. Nice car, but a bit bland, which wasn't helped by the color combo (white w/ beige leather). Reminded me of my Saturn, just not quite as powerful. No sunroof or Bluetooth, but both an Aux and USB port. $22K sticker, salesman thought I could get it for around $18K.
This was one of 3 '09 Optimas - one LX, one EX and one EX-V6. All available for around $4K off sticker. Also looked at a couple of Kia Souls, as well as the sportback Mitsu Lancer.
2) Hyundai - no test drives, just a look see at the new Tuscon as well as the Elantra Touring. Tuscon is a nice looking vehicle, but a bit pricey. GLS models stickered at around $24K, while the Limited was closer to $30K. These only come with 4-cyl engines, so those price tags seem pretty steep to me. The Elantra Touring, OTOH, was a pretty nice piece of kit for about $20K.
3) Subaru - again, no test drives - in fact, wasn't even approached by a salesman on this lot (on a Saturday?). They had a couple of used Imprezas - one 2.5i Premium sedan, one Outback Sport. Nice, but kinda pedestrian both inside and out. About the only plus I see for Subaru is the AWD.
4) Mazda - since Mazda is running a 0% / 60 mo incentive on the 3, I thought I'd pop in and see. Also, I qualify for S-plan pricing, which might help a bit. I'll admit that I wasn't too aware of the different engine / trim level combos. After some discussion with the (helpful) salesman, he pulled around a 3i (2.0L) Touring (middle trim level. Auto transmission (5-speed w/ sport shift), nicely equipped but no leather or sunroof (must step up to the Grand Touring trim level to get those). Sticker price just under $20K.
Frankly, I was pretty impressed, even though the 2.0L only puts out 148HP. The car felt nice a tight, much more sporty (obviously) than my Saturn. Fit and finish were good as well, and Bluetooth is standard. No standard USB jack, but an iPod kit is available as an accessory.
It's amazing that an up close and personal look at these cars identified some interesting differences. The Kia and the Mazda both had struts for the trunk, while the Subaru only had hinges that would interfere with the luggage (I play golf, so having enough room in the trunk for a set or two of golf clubs is important).
My search parameters are:
-- Under $20K (I might be able to bump that by 1 or 2 thou for the right car)
-- New or used (no more than 2-3 years old and under, oh, 35K miles)
-- Haven't made a final decision on stick vs. auto - the new crop of sport shift autoboxes are pretty nice, and there isn't a mileage penalty one usually associates with an automatic anymore
-- Also haven't made a final decision regarding AWD - again, between ABS, TCS and ESC, I don't know that having AWD for 10 days of poor weather really makes sense. I've lived in Colorado for 16+ years and have only had 4WD / AWD as my daily driver for maybe a couple of those years.
-- Ditto body style. I went into this thinking that I'd prefer anything but a 4-door sedan, but with the Mazda 3 5 door costing, on average $1500-2000 more than a comparable 4-door sedan, I'm rethinking that perspective.
If (and this is a big if) I do this, I'd trade in the L300 for the sales tax benefit and kick in another grand or so in cash. I'm hoping I can get $4K for the Saturn, so a $20K ceiling would mean financing $15K, which would give me a pretty reasonable payment.
I appreciate everyone allowing me the opportunity to dump all this out into this post. If anything, I'm more confused than before. Keep the Saturn and invest $1500 or so into maintenance / repairs, or take on a new car payment? If I dump the Saturn, what do I get?
I also have a small confession to make ... for the past 18 months, I've been delivering pizzas part time - 3 or 4 nights a week - for some extra cash. So, even though I've been working from home, the pizza gig has meant that I've been putting about 12-13K miles a year on my car. The Saturn has been averaging around 19-21 MPG during this time, which is almost all city driving. I'm hoping that a new ride might improve upon that mileage number a bit.
I'm sure the feedback I get to this post will be all over the map .. but, bring it on. No guarantees that I'll take any specific advice, but it is all welcome.
I enjoy the spirited bantering here on Edmunds, and think of all of you as my virtual friends.
Hard to beat a Subaru in snow country, but there's a mpg hit (and they aren't that cheap).
I agree with you on the Subaru observations .. MPG for most Subies is around 20 city, 27-28 highway. But, the Mazda 3s (2.5L engine) gets 21/29; the 3i gets 24/33 (auto). Also, price is a bit high for most new Subarus, so I'm leaning towards used - I found an '09 Impreza Prem sedan with 19K miles for $16K at a dealer in Co. Springs.
One last observation ... the wife, even though she doesn't drive my car very often, has one gripe with the Saturn, which is the low seating position. Granted, compared to the VUE she drives, most any car will make her feel like she's sitting on the ground, but if I could find something that had a slightly higher seating position, that would be a plus - hence, the gravitation towards Subarus.
VW Golf ... Honda Fit ... Hyundai Elantra Touring ... all have their pros and cons.
So, on AutoTrader, I found this:
A bit out of the ordinary
I know that the interior of these are pretty crude - TMV shows about $15K, so the asking price is a bit high. But, its AWD and pretty sharp looking in black.
However, it's about as far away as my search criteria allowed (49 out of 50 miles), and, I wonder about the reliability. These all have the 2.4L with the CVT, right?
I'm up again, seeing if anyone responded to my posts.
Nope.
(darn dogs for waking up so early - don't they know it's the weekend?)
And yeah, 2.4 with a CVT. I haven't really heard anything about that powertrain, good or bad. The 2.4 makes 172 hp, and I think it was a joint venture between Mitsubishi, Hyundai, and Chrysler. At least I think so. I hope this isn't just the old 2.4 that they used to use in old Sebring/Stratus sedans and the convertible. Back in 2003 my Dad and I drove a new Stratus with that engine, and both thought it was pretty crude. Rough, noisy, nasty sounding, and not all that fast.
As for fast, calling the Cailber an "R/T" is a bit of a slap in the face. Edmunds tested a 2007 and got 0-60 in 10.1 seconds. I think a Matrix, which is probably this thing's closest competitor, did it in around 11. So it's not snail-slow, but just not worthy to wear a badge that says "R/T" on it!
I agree though, it does look pretty sharp in black. Might not be bad, if you can get it for a good price.
For the money you are talking about, I'm sure you could get a Malibu or a Fusion. Either is a much nicer car than any of what you looked at.
My sister has a previous generation Mazda3 mid-level sedan/automatic and she loves it, and one of my friends here in Michigan had a BASE Mazda3 sedan (crank windows, etc) and upgraded to the Mazda3 touring hatch with the 2.3l and a manual trans. She too is stoked. You can get a Mazda3 with the 2.5l 4 and a 6 speed manual transmission, which is somewhat tempting for me, like the old Focus ST. Would you be more interested in a sedan or the hatch?
We have a Legacy wagon and my main regret is not getting a fancier one. The car is fun to drive (its a manual), gets good mileage, is phenomenal in snow, etc, just wish we had heated seats, sunroof and okay, turbo. Its too bad they don't make it anymore.
In thinking some more, you might be barking up the wrong Hyundai tree. A Genesis coupe starts at about $22k sticker. I'd be shocked if that didn't move down a little with some conversation, and the base car has about everything. That gets you a Mistubishi Eclipse GSX to Lancer EVO to whatever 2.0 l turbo 4 cylinder. I think that is the best bang for the buck they have out there right now.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
The new new Mustang with the 300+ hp, 30mpg hwy V6 is pretty sweet. I can't wait to take a ride in one of those. The new Mustangs have a lot of performance, but they aren't the crazy bargain they used to be in the past. I think they still offer a lot of bang for the buck and do well in the performance value equation, especially compared to things like the Corvette and even the Camaro.
I like the idea of having the drive wheels in the back, but I really want a sedan.
The one feature she liked was that on the Grand Touring model, it comes with power leather seats with memory. She's always griping at me every time I drive the VUE how she has to readjust everything when she gets back behind the wheel.
I drove a 3 sedan yesterday ... the hatch is approx 1500-2000 higher in price and it's not something I have to have. A 3s GT auto starts around $22K w/o options.
kplacer - I've thought about a Fusion or Malibu - in fact, as a current Saturn owner, I qualify for a $1K incentive on any GM product. Fact of the matter is, I'm not sure I want to go mid size again - even though both cars get better mileage than the 3 with an automatic, I kinda like the fun factor the 3 offers.
andre - I'd have to sit in a Caliber to make a final decision, but, the cheap side of me thinks that an AWD car with 15K on it for about $15K isn't that bad of a deal. I'd have to find out how much warranty is left. But, I have the same feeling about the Caliber that I do about Subaru - what am I willing to sacrifice to get AWD?
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
Been there, done that many times!
Financially, you are probably better off doing the maintenance, and getting another 1-2 years out of the saturn. If it is only worth 4K now, it won't depreciate much if at all. And getting a brand new car to beat up delivering pizza may not be the greatest idea.
But I think you are doing the right thing. Look at and drive a variety of stuff, to see what you actually like/want. Once you have that nailed down, then you can do the $$ analysis.
I am more partial to used these days, but it is much harder to find what you want that way (unless you go for a recent CPO used).
In your case, look at a matrix/vibe. I was shocked at how roomy and nice those were last year when I was looking. Certainly equivalent, but more cargo room, to the Mazda. Maybe not as "sporty" though, but cheaper.
I would also rather go slightly used or a little smaller to get more features (like a moonroof).
and pass on the SUV since you already have one.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've done both selling myself but I mostly trade them in. I just traded my '06 LR3 for a '10 LR4. I was only going to be in town for 4 weeks and I didn't want to mess with selling, especially, if it was going to several weeks. I wanted to test the new car for a while before I left town again to make sure it was OK. I drove the new car 500 miles of city driving before I took it on a cross-country trip of 1,800 miles.
Mark