Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

jmonroe1

@28firefighter said:
Washington automatically requires justification if under blue book value and will audit those justifications periodically. Ask me how I know…(I have the worst luck ever…)

So tell us how you know.

I hope you didn’t have a smirk on your face when you entered the selling price. This is when you gotta have a poker face or at least look somewhat serious.

Jmonroe

tjc78

I got dinged once with that in NJ. It was a relative selling me the car at a reduced value. Needed proof (notarized letter IIRC) from the seller.

28firefighter

It was a vehicle legitimately sold under market value because it needed work. We (the seller and I) provided a description and estimate of the work required. The agent said okay and I received a letter from the state about 4 weeks later asking for additional documentation or an additional amount in sales tax.

jmonroe1

@28firefighter said:
It was a vehicle legitimately sold under market value because it needed work. We (the seller and I) provided a description and estimate of the work required. The agent said okay and I received a letter from the state about 4 weeks later asking for additional documentation or an additional amount in sales tax.

Did the state accept the additional documentation or did you cave and write a check?

jmonroe

28firefighter

@jmonroe1 said:

@28firefighter said:
It was a vehicle legitimately sold under market value because it needed work. We (the seller and I) provided a description and estimate of the work required. The agent said okay and I received a letter from the state about 4 weeks later asking for additional documentation or an additional amount in sales tax.

Did the state accept the additional documentation or did you cave and write a check?

jmonroe

They accepted it after a call with the mechanic to verify it was a legitimate estimate.

corvette

The Prius has some minor body damage and is above average mileage for the year, so should get a break, but then again, it was something like $75 to renew the tags (including property tax), so it doesn't seem like an extremely profitable endeavor to challenge the valuation.

oldfarmer50

jmonroe1 said:

@greg128 said:

Oh, damn. Those double-dipping poo-hats! That should be illegal. Someone's gotta challenge that, plain and simple. They say that another taxable sale has occurred, but that is not true since you entered into the purchase-option contract at the start of the lease.

Actually, now that I read it further, it is a matter of who gets hit with the cost. Essentially, the leasing company is responsible for the tax payment but is directly passing through the tax to the lessee rather than paying their pound of flesh. Either way, Texans need to push that with their legislators to get it fixed.

In NY a vehicle is taxed on its value whenever it is resold and re-titled. It is possible the total tax collected on one vehicle could exceed the original purchase price if it is sold multiple times. It seems logical to me to charge tax one time when buying anything but that doesn't apply to any titled vehicles, trailers, boats etc. as they attempt to suck as much money out of the tax paying populace as they possibly can (like red light cameras?). Remember with inflation if a product goes up 10% then their tax take also goes up 10%. They LOVE inflation. If and when your salary increases then their cut also increases. But we all know that no matter how much they collect it is never enough to pay for their over-bloated patronage and social programs.

However your vehicle is traded in dealers get a great deal by subtracting the trade in value of your old vehicle from the price of the new one and taxing that amount. That is why dealers generally offer less than what your trade is actually worth.

As best as I know the dealer doesn’t make any money on the taxes collected on the sale of a vehicle. They have to pass all of the collected tax money onto the state.

The reason the dealer offers you less for your car is so they will make more money when they sell it. I do however agree with you about states taxing a vehicle from cradle to grave and making a good chunk of money doing it. You as a buyer have do your best not to contribute to their gouging but to do that the best way is to buy from a private party who will work with you about the taxes. A dealer is not going to stick their neck out and risk losing their dealership to save you tax money owed to the state. That WILL NOT happen.

Here is what I did when I bought my ‘75 Grand Prix from a private party in ‘77:

The guy selling the car wanted $4,200 for it but I told him I’d pay $4,000 for it but only if he said I paid $2,200 for it so I could save money on the taxes. He was reluctant to do that because he didn’t want to get into any trouble with the state. I told him, it’s done all the time and as long as he wasn’t saying he sold it for a ridiculously low price there wouldn’t be any problem with the state. All he had to do was say the car was in fair condition not the excellent condition that it was.

Fast forward to when I met him at the bank the following day to do the paperwork and because I was going to get a loan for $2,000. After the bank guy did my loan paperwork he pushed his chair away from the desk and said, “now it’s time for you two to agree to a price to give me so I can collect the tax money owed to the state. I won’t agree to a crazy low price but I’ll go along with something reasonable”. The seller looked at me with a very surprised look and said, “I guess this is done all the time”. That was it and I saved a nice chunk of money because of that. He was happy, I was happy and the bank guy was happy. Easy peasey.

FWIW, that wasn’t the only time I did that. I think this is a very low risk way of cheating on taxes and you guys know how much I like doing that.

jmonroe

I’ll be checking the post office for your wanted poster.

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

I got dinged once with that in NJ. It was a relative selling me the car at a reduced value. Needed proof (notarized letter IIRC) from the seller.

I don’t think I ever cheated on the sales tax valuation for a private party sale although one guy offered. I pay so little for my beaters that it wasn’t that much anyway. When I sold a car I signed the form for sales tax but left the price out, trusting the buyer to do the right thing.

NY never asked me to justify the price.

Michaell

When I bought my first car in 1982, my dad helped me with the transaction.

He had found a '79 Pontiac Sunbird with only 11,000 miles on it for, I think, $3850.

I believe my dad and the (private) seller agreed to list the price at $3350 for the documentation so we could save a bit on the sales tax.

To my knowledge, the state didn't question it.

kyfdx

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

@jmonroe1
I don’t want to say I’ve ever done that (multiple times), so I won’t. 😏

I actually paid less than the state's assessed value for the Prius. The clerk explained that the ad valorem tax going forward would be based on that and not what I actually paid. I'm not sure how they calculated sales tax, but I think I might have had to pay on the (slightly) higher figure for that, as well.

Michaell said:

How much does the state of OH think you paid for the GTI?

You're not going to believe this... He's done you one better. The state of OH has no idea he even owns a GTI!

Good point..

Michaell

Yeah, I realized that last night.

I should have known better, as he and I have tipped a few beers once or twice…

henryn

Texas has what they call the “Standard Presumptive Value”. If you’re curious, you can look it up here.

https://www.txdmv.gov/standard-presumptive-calculator

Texans who buy a used vehicle from anyone other than a licensed vehicle dealer are required to pay motor vehicle sales tax of 6.25 percent on the purchase price or standard presumptive value (SPV), whichever is the highest value.
SPV applies wherever you buy the vehicle, in Texas or out of state. A vehicle's SPV is its worth based on similar sales in the Texas region. The Texas Legislature passed the law in 2009 to raise additional revenue to fund Texas schools. Black Book, the national guide that provides the values, uses an average wholesale used vehicle value based on Texas sales data.

As this didn’t become law until 2009, for most of my car buying life cheating on the sales tax when buying a used car was considered standard practice.

When dealing with really uptight people who wouldn’t “go along”, it was not uncommon to “redo” the paperwork before going to the tax office to file the paperwork and apply for a title. I, of course, never did that, being the fine upstanding law abiding citizen that I am.

henryn

xwesx said:

@qbrozen I'm sorry, sir. I finally sorted out the Q7 today, so I'm going to start driving it again starting this afternoon. Please don't curse it (or me); I need this win. I NEED IT!

Quick recap:

I had an intake sensor issue after install of the alternator. The MAS was smoked when the alternator burned up, so I bought a new one. Afterward, it said I had an air leak on my intake. I had to pull the front wheel and liner off again, and I found that the lower intercooler hose that I had previously removed and reinstalled had popped apart. Turns out, the seal didn't seat properly; it was all stretched out and prevented the clip from retaining the hose properly. It came apart once the system was put under pressure by the turbos.

Sad thing is the rubber seal (just a big o-ring, basically), was not something I could get locally, so I would be looking at a long delay again for the part. Instead, I used a little DIY ingenuity to recondition the seal, reinstall the part, and get it all put back together. Runs like a champ now!

Turns out, a good heat treatment and a little silicon lube works wonders on an o-ring. I used a heat gun to heat it up to about 300F (maybe a little more), then applied a coating of Sil-Glyde to it and set it on the snow to cool down. Afterward, it was back down to its original size, slipped snuggly into place, and didn't have any issue at all with me reassembling the parts.

This 2013 F150 has a number of o-rings in the coolant hoses. And they all tend to leak when they get old. My truck was leaking from two places when I bought it. As the F150 is so common, the o-rings are very easy to get. All of the local auto parts stores stock them. After reading some online articles, and watching a few youtube videos, I decided to replace all of the hoses and the plastic T-connector while I was in there.

stickguy

In NJ at least it is entirely up to the buyer to list the sales price when they go to the DMV office. The seller just has to sign over the title. No requirement for a bill of sale or anything that includes the sales price from the seller. I have usually written one up just to cover myself (though sales price was not needed I would put it on) but have done deals with nothing but the title changing hands.

jmonroe1

@henryn said:
Texas has what they call the “Standard Presumptive Value”. If you’re curious, you can look it up here.

https://www.txdmv.gov/standard-presumptive-calculator
Texans who buy a used vehicle from anyone other than a licensed vehicle dealer are required to pay motor vehicle sales tax of 6.25 percent on the purchase price or standard presumptive value (SPV), whichever is the highest value.
SPV applies wherever you buy the vehicle, in Texas or out of state. A vehicle's SPV is its worth based on similar sales in the Texas region. The Texas Legislature passed the law in 2009 to raise additional revenue to fund Texas schools. Black Book, the national guide that provides the values, uses an average wholesale used vehicle value based on Texas sales data.

As this didn’t become law until 2009, for most of my car buying life cheating on the sales tax when buying a used car was considered standard practice.

When dealing with really uptight people who wouldn’t “go along”, it was not uncommon to “redo” the paperwork before going to the tax office to file the paperwork and apply for a title. I, of course, never did that, being the fine upstanding law abiding citizen that I am.

All is not lost yet for you.

It looks like you’ll have to get our poster buddy @british_rover to appraise your next car purchase that is bought private party. There is always a way to punch back at thieving states.

jmonroe

jmonroe1

@28firefighter said:

@jmonroe1 said:

@28firefighter said:
It was a vehicle legitimately sold under market value because it needed work. We (the seller and I) provided a description and estimate of the work required. The agent said okay and I received a letter from the state about 4 weeks later asking for additional documentation or an additional amount in sales tax.

Did the state accept the additional documentation or did you cave and write a check?

jmonroe

They accepted it after a call with the mechanic to verify it was a legitimate estimate.

Way to go. How many beers did that cost ya?

jmonroe

ab348

I think being less than truthful with the DMV about the sales price for tax purposes when transferring a used car purchase is a pretty popular pastime in many places. Up here it was commonly done in ways described here, having the seller note on the bill of sale "needs repair", "as-is", etc. That sometimes worked until the DMV got hard-nosed and started using KBB valuations on all title transfer transactions. If the stated sales price was too far out of whack with the KBB range they would require you to pay for an appraisal from someone certified by them and charged tax on that figure before issuing a title to the new owner. Took all the fun out of it.

oldfarmer50

All the talk about buying beater cars to act as holdovers got me curious so I looked in my area for cars under $3000. Didn’t find much. But I was surprised there were ANY.

https://albany.craigslist.org/ctd/d/mechanicville-1999-ford-escort-sport/7449836182.html

https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/albany-1998-chevy-prizm-toyots-miles-70k/7448622083.html

https://nwct.craigslist.org/cto/d/new-milford-2006-dodge-stratus/7449930442.html

https://nwct.craigslist.org/cto/d/naugatuck-2005-lincoln-lse/7445309597.html

au1994

Those look very appealing actually. The Lincoln has the most needs but buy ‘em all and flip!!

qbrozen

Dang, I’d grab that LS in a heartbeat of the interior is decent

henryn

https://houston.craigslist.org/ctd/d/houston-2010-buick-lucerne/7451113614.html
158k miles, looks pretty clean, for $6,200

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/league-city-buick-lacosse-cxl/7449571135.html
Another clean Buick, older, but only $4,900
https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/spring-dodge-caravan/7449070708.html
2010 Dodge Caravan, 139k, for $5,500

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/crosby-2008-ford-crownvictoria/7449313513.html
2008 Crown Victoria, 144k miles, $5,250

None of these are below $3k, but it does look like you could get into some cheap reliable transportation for around $5 or $6 thousand.

sda

I like the LaCrosse. Fairly low miles, decent paint, 3800 V6.

stickguy

that prizm with 70K on it looks like a good deal. Assuming of course title is clean and they aren't glossing over a bunch of problems.

the Lincoln could of course get expensive, and I think that motor has some chronic (and expensive) issues. But maybe you get lucky. But could be a good deal if you can DIY a full on suspension rebuild.

au1994

The Lincoln is above my DIY abilities but the Prizim is the one that intrigued me. Its a Corolla underneath.

Good point about title issues at this price point.

oldfarmer50

I bet 2 years ago they were all $3k cars but not any more. One bonus is that being from Texas they probably don’t have hidden rust.

mjfloyd1

How much to fix bodywork on Prizm?

stickguy

mjfloyd1 said:

How much to fix bodywork on Prizm?

Free. Just don't do it. or get a hammer and block of wood and see what you can accomplish in the driveway.

It has been a while since I did it, but having a well used beater is a different mindset. You spend nothing that isn't essential, and stuff like dents definitely isn't essential. And fun to play with (practice on) since you really can't hurt it.

ab348

henryn said:

https://houston.craigslist.org/ctd/d/houston-2010-buick-lucerne/7451113614.html
158k miles, looks pretty clean, for $6,200

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/league-city-buick-lacosse-cxl/7449571135.html
Another clean Buick, older, but only $4,900
https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/spring-dodge-caravan/7449070708.html
2010 Dodge Caravan, 139k, for $5,500

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/crosby-2008-ford-crownvictoria/7449313513.html
2008 Crown Victoria, 144k miles, $5,250

None of these are below $3k, but it does look like you could get into some cheap reliable transportation for around $5 or $6 thousand.

The two Buicks look intriguing. The Lacrosse is probably the best bet of the two if you can deal with the old-man image it will give you. It's so old that it doesn't even have an Aux jack for the radio!

While the Prizm in the other ad might run forever, in addition to the bodywork issues it looks like the front seat upholstery on both sides is shot.

sda

Old-man image, ha. I owned a silver 89 Seville when I was 34!

qbrozen

my 16-yr-old made the weirdest comment last night. He said he'd like a Dodge Caravan for his first vehicle. I think he has plans of forming a band and needs to transport everyone and their gear. Oh boy.

stickguy

or he is planning ahead for date night.

henryn

qbrozen said:

my 16-yr-old made the weirdest comment last night. He said he'd like a Dodge Caravan for his first vehicle. I think he has plans of forming a band and needs to transport everyone and their gear. Oh boy.

I bought my first minivan back in 2017 expressly to haul all of the PA equipment that I need when I do a DJ gig. You fold all of the seats down in that caravan, you can haul a LOT of equipment.

cdnpinhead

A practical vehicle that nearly all of "the people who matter" hates.

Go figure.

tjc78

@qbrozen said:
Dang, I’d grab that LS in a heartbeat of the interior is decent

If I’m not mistaken isn’t the V8 actually more reliable than the V6 in those?

tjc78

@sda said:
Old-man image, ha. I owned a silver 89 Seville when I was 34!

I got you all beat. At 17 my first car was a Grand Marquis. I had two Panthers and a 79 Continental before I was 22.

Actually I don’t think I’ve ever owned anything that wouldn’t be considered “old man” other than my 2000 Solara.

tjc78

@ab348 said:
The two Buicks look intriguing. The Lacrosse is probably the best bet of the two if you can deal with the old-man image it will give you. It's so old that it doesn't even have an Aux jack for the radio!

While the Prizm in the other ad might run forever, in addition to the bodywork issues it looks like the front seat upholstery on both sides is shot.

The LaCrosse would need an instant upgrade to double din touchscreen head unit with Bluetooth. That would do a lot to modernize it

oldfarmer50

cdnpinhead said:

A practical vehicle that nearly all of "the people who matter" hates.

Go figure.

The dealers can’t get enough of them.

sda

tjc78 said:

@sda said:

Old-man image, ha. I owned a silver 89 Seville when I was 34!

I got you all beat. At 17 my first car was a Grand Marquis. I had two Panthers and a 79 Continental before I was 22.

Actually I don’t think I’ve ever owned anything that wouldn’t be considered “old man” other than my 2000 Solara.

When I was 19 I had a 59 Cadillac that I was going to restore which was a fail. I did restore a 70 DeVille convertible when I was 22. Not my primary driver but driven a lot. When dad’s car was in the shop he picked his boss up at the airport in the DeViile. They put the top down and enjoyed.

stickguy

tjc78 said:

@sda said:

Old-man image, ha. I owned a silver 89 Seville when I was 34!

I got you all beat. At 17 my first car was a Grand Marquis. I had two Panthers and a 79 Continental before I was 22.

Actually I don’t think I’ve ever owned anything that wouldn’t be considered “old man” other than my 2000 Solara.

True about the Solara. That was an old lady car.

stickguy

oldfarmer50 said:

cdnpinhead said:

A practical vehicle that nearly all of "the people who matter" hates.

Go figure.

The dealers can’t get enough of them.

Can't get enough of anything right now! But they are incredibly practical. We had 3 starting when my 2nd kid was born and we outgrew the Sube wagon. Went through until she was about 17 and driving on her own, and our oldest was getting ready to graduate college.

tjc78

@stickguy said:
True about the Solara. That was an old lady car.

It wasn’t that bad.. at least I had the V6 model

mjfloyd1

stickguy said:

that prizm with 70K on it looks like a good deal. Assuming of course title is clean and they aren't glossing over a bunch of problems.

Prizm should run a good long time, I’d think.

mjfloyd1

tjc78 said:

@ab348 said:

The two Buicks look intriguing. The Lacrosse is probably the best bet of the two if you can deal with the old-man image it will give you. It's so old that it doesn't even have an Aux jack for the radio!

While the Prizm in the other ad might run forever, in addition to the bodywork issues it looks like the front seat upholstery on both sides is shot.

The LaCrosse would need an instant upgrade to double din touchscreen head unit with Bluetooth. That would do a lot to modernize it

How much would that cost? Curious if it is worthwhile on such a low dollar car

corvette

Today was centered around automotive related misadventures. My bestie's Prius got a flat tire yesterday and she parked it at a random business and got a ride home. Unfortunately, she doesn't have a working spare tire. I offered to lend her my spare tire and we headed out there to install it. I get the lug nuts loosened and get the car up in the air to find that the wheel is stuck to the hub. I tried the mule kick trick as well as putting the car back on the ground to put weight on it and try to dislodge it, with no luck. Used my AAA subscription to get her towed to a nearby tire shop (miraculously, there was more than one open on Sunday), they replaced a valve stem and sent her on her way.

I then dropped my own Prius off to get the scraping/scratching noise as well as the front brakes checked out, and she gave me a ride back home. I got a free lunch at a delicious hole-in-the-wall African restaurant out of the deal.

ab348

stickguy said:

tjc78 said:

@sda said:

Old-man image, ha. I owned a silver 89 Seville when I was 34!

I got you all beat. At 17 my first car was a Grand Marquis. I had two Panthers and a 79 Continental before I was 22.

Actually I don’t think I’ve ever owned anything that wouldn’t be considered “old man” other than my 2000 Solara.

True about the Solara. That was an old lady car.

You beat me to it. 😁

tjc78

@mjfloyd1 said:
How much would that cost? Curious if it is worthwhile on such a low dollar car

Under $500. Those era GMs need little module to keep the chimes. Unit can be had for 2-300 not sure what the module costs

jmonroe1

@oldfarmer50 said:
All the talk about buying beater cars to act as holdovers got me curious so I looked in my area for cars under $3000. Didn’t find much. But I was surprised there were ANY.

https://albany.craigslist.org/ctd/d/mechanicville-1999-ford-escort-sport/7449836182.html

https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/albany-1998-chevy-prizm-toyots-miles-70k/7448622083.html

https://nwct.craigslist.org/cto/d/new-milford-2006-dodge-stratus/7449930442.html

https://nwct.craigslist.org/cto/d/naugatuck-2005-lincoln-lse/7445309597.html

One of the biggest problems when you list on Craigslist is the the downright flakes you’ll get. I don’t have first hand knowledge of this but Son #1 does.

I’ve told the following story a few years ago on the Cars and Conversations forum but since we are talking about beaters I’ll repeat it here:

In 2016 my son had enough with his 2008 Chrysler Town and Country that had around 120K miles. He had tons of nuisance problems with it but now the tranny was acting up. He listed it on Craigslist and got a handful of people that were interested in it. The first guy worked at a place that specialized in the sale of tranny’s and tranny parts. He comes to look at it, takes it for a test drive and seemed to be pretty interested but wanted more time to think about it. My Son then decided that since he had the unlimited mileage lifetime warranty on the engine and tranny he was going to take the van to the Chrysler dealer he bought it from to see if the tranny was covered figuring they’d weasel out of it someway but he was going to try anyway.

So he calls to make an appointment and in a couple days he takes it in. The Service Advisor confirms that the tranny is covered but only if it was the typical Chrysler tranny problem and not beaten to death by him. But they would have to put it on the lift, drop the pan, look at the fluid and give it a once over look see and it was going to cost him 100/150 bucks (I can’t remember now what the price was) to do this. A-huh, that’s the catch but he figured what the hell. He asked what his chances were and the Service Advisor reiterated that they’d have look at it and he couldn’t promise anything. Just about then one of their senior techs walks by and the Service Advisor said, “ hey Joe, you got a minute to do a quick test drive on this guys van for a tranny problem”? The guy takes it and about 20 minutes later he comes back and says, “seems to be the typical tranny problem but I’ll have to look at it closer tomorrow”. My Son is starting to feel a little better and tells them to check it out. As my Son was leaving, the tech pulls him aside and says something like, “I’m not going to admit I’ve said this but I’m pretty sure you’re going to get a new tranny. You don’t look like a guy that beats his car. Again, I’m not going to admit I said this because I’m not in charge”. WOW, my Son is now feeling very good about this.

They call my Son the next day and said, “you’re in luck, we’re going to replace your tranny at no charge and we’ll credit you credit card for the inspection we did. My Son is now speechless. He picks the car up in about 4 or 5 days (they had to order a crate tranny) and when he gets home he calls the guy that was thinking it over and told him what happened but he’d honor the listing price. Guess what? This absolute moron says to my Son, “that’s great. Will you take 500 bucks off your price”. My Son can’t believe what he just heard and says, “NO, but thanks for letting me list this van for more money now”. And that is exactly what he did. He re-listed it for around 1300 bucks more, got it, and the phone never stopped ringing.

Some people don’t have the brains they were born with and a lot of them can be found on Craigslist.

jmonroe

henryn

tjc78 said:

@mjfloyd1 said:

How much would that cost? Curious if it is worthwhile on such a low dollar car

Under $500. Those era GMs need little module to keep the chimes. Unit can be had for 2-300 not sure what the module costs

One of the first things I did when I purchased that work truck last year. A double-DIN head unit, with SiriusXM tuner and antenna, backup camera, and bluetooth set me back around $300. This unit is not as good as what comes in most new cars, but it is functional and worth the $300. Of course, if you want to push the envelope, it's very easy to spend more on the stereo than you paid for the car.

henryn

Interesting note on possibly selling my work truck and buying a new one. Carvana, which had the highest bid by far, has not followed up. They're just waiting on me. The two low bidders, Algo and CarGurus, keep following up, emails, text messages. Algo especially.

tifighter

stickguy said:

or he is planning ahead for date night.

My HS girlfriend had a Subaru Loyale wagon.

That's it. That's the post.