Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

breld

10 more hp, I believe 8 higher in torque. 6800 rpm redline versus 6500 without the package.

kyfdx

Short-shifter isn't an option on the ZHP.. it's standard.. (you can buy it for your regular E46, though).

The car also has gloss-black trim that isn't on the regular 3-series (around the windows)... You'd have to work extra hard to fake one... and, it would probably cost more than the value you'd add....

10 extra HP.... the exhaust is different, as well, and you can hear the difference.

They cribbed that description off of another car... That is definitely a ZHP in the pictures...

isellhondas

Ten lousy more horsepower! Like people will be able to tell the difference!

kyfdx

Not fer nuthin, but my personal experience with that dealer has been that the cars never look as good in person. I've gone to see a couple they have advertised as "perfect" only to find cars well below my standards.

Yeah.. I think their asking price would be higher, if it was as nice as it looks in the pictures...

Plus, beige/tan... not the greatest color combo..

kyfdx

My wife had a '97 Accord EX... the EX had FIVE more HP than the LX... Between that and the 4-wheel disc, it was like driving a race car!! :surprise:

isellhondas

Are you sure it wasn't a placebo effect?

I was selling them at the time and the EX's had the Vtec engines. If I REALLY got on it, yeah, I could tell a difference but not much. Actually, the difference was ten horsepower if I recall correctly.

By 1998, they all had the Vtec engines.

And, I don't know how the rear discs made that much of a difference?

What probably DID make a difference was the rear stablizer bar that the EX's came with. If you drove the car hard around corners, you cojuld really tell the difference.

breld

Yeah, that extra 10 hp is the last thing I care about with the ZHP. That short shifter is pretty high on the list though.

For me, I like that it's rare and enthusiast-oriented, and for that matter, only really recognized by enthusiasts. BMWs certainly are not unique on the road, but there is a lot of variance on the reasons people buy them, not the least of which is perceived prestige. In contrast to that (like most of us here), I feel I appreciate what the cars offer from a driver's perspective, and I guess I prefer to exhibit that, as subtle as that may be. So my 530xi was a manual and had the BMW "m-tech" kit. Our new 318ti is certainly not luxurious, but it has a certain classic feel to it. Our 328xi is the most "mundane," being a slushbox and all, but it does have the sport package and "upgrade" on the sport wheels, as well as that sharp "lemon" interior.

So, we could afford to have this third BMW in the garage. The real question is, can we afford to maintain all of them? :surprise:

kyfdx

I'm in contact with a guy that has an E30 for sale... He has had the car for three years, but he has a maintenance log that goes all the way back to 1995! He scanned it, and e-mailed it to me...

It's pretty neat that he has that, and you can see all the work that's been done...

But.... you can also see all the work that's been done.. :surprise: It makes you think twice..

stever

Hey, I have all my receipts going back to Dec. 1998, and a gas log with notes in it going back to day one.

Wanna buy a minivan?

Some of the stuff is a bit scary (knock sensor in my case), but I'd rather have that info than not. Wonder if those records would scare more buyers off than not?

graphicguy

Actually, I've been using an iPhone App called "Gas Cubby". It keeps track of every fillup, every service, every maintenance, every fee, even your MPG/fillup, price/gal, date of fillup/service, etc.

I've been using it for 2 years. I print out all the info to a spreadsheet every year and store it with my other car papers, to show anyone the entire history of the car when I sell or trade.

For me, it's a worthwhile app....especially given that I write off a portion of my car for business.

qbrozen

Ten lousy more horsepower! Like people will be able to tell the difference!

No, probably not. But the much more important items are the sport suspension, higher redline (when racing, of course), and wider wheels/tires. Makes a big difference at the autoX, anyway.

isellhondas

I had a guy once trade in a 12 cyl BMW. He gave me a file folder two inches thick of receipts.

After looking through a few of those there would be NO WAY I would have bought that car.

We wouldn't touch it and it was wholesaled the next day.

michaellno

Wasn't somebody here looking for a manual wagon?

michaellno

A couple weekends ago, I took the wife's CX-7 to the Mazda dealer in Colorado Springs for an oil chance and tire rotation. No problems - the service was excellent.

Today, in my inbox, is an email from the dealer advertising some special deals and an offer to pay up to $2K over NADA "rough" condition for a trade.

NADA shows the ION, in rough condition, to be worth $6200 in trade, so add $2K to that and you end up with a number that makes a new car very appealing.

The problem is, there is only one MazdaSpeed 3 on the lot, and it's black. Not my most favorite color.

EDIT: I wonder if the trade offer is good for used cars? 'Cuz I found this in their inventory.

jayrider

Horsepower calibrations from the factory are suspect at best. The margin for error is probably at least plus/minus 5 hp. Say you have 2 cars -- the one with the 10 extra hp has a 250 lb driver and a full tank of gas. The other has a 150 lb driver and 1/4 tank of gas. My $ is on Mr. Slim. Also the shift points on the automatics and the shifting skill on a stick can make a big difference. Identical models can vary. Don't forget torque vs high rpm power bands. In my mind a car is either a 1. rocket -2. fast- 3.average or 4. slow. All I need to know.

michaellno

Oh, I don't doubt that there are variances between individual cars and that a car with more torque and a lighter driver may be faster than a car with more HP and a heavier driver.

I think the gist of the discussion was what was in the BMW ZHP package when it was available.

breld

Over lunch, I went to a BMW dealer to check out a 2005 330ci - it was a new arrival with little information on the website, but it did say "manual." Well, it turns out it's actually an automatic, so that's all beside the point.

While there, I spoke to a salesperson I casually know through someone I work with. I brought up this white 330ci ZHP and he was real candid and helpful with advice. He printed out the warranty history on the car, which confirmed the options on it (including the ZHP) and, most importantly, noted the car had been previously CPO'd, so it has a little warranty left on it, through Feb 2012.

The carfax is now up on the Audi dealer's website, and there's nothing interesting on it (in a good way).

The salesperson also said he knew the manager over at this Audi dealer and would try to find out more on the pricing. I had a message from him by the time I got back to the office, and he claimed the Audi dealer is into the car for $21,100. It's listed at $23,500 on their website, but $22,600 on craigslist, which is the "bottom line" price quoted to me over the phone from their salesperson. I trust the BMW salesperson I talked to, but not necessarily the info offered to him by the Audi guy - it doesn't make sense to put $21,100 into a car and then list it at $22,600, right out of the gates.

In any case, I plan on taking a look at it this evening, assuming it's out of prep.

Thanks all!

Bruce

kyfdx

I would doubt they have more than $16-17K into it.. Plus, it's not your problem if they overpaid..

It's nice that it has a little warranty left...

qbrozen

It can happen. They very well have paid fair trade-in but then discovered all sorts of things they had to fix/replace.

I was told this happened on the 540i I bought. Private dealer took it on trade ... it then threw a CEL after it was in their possession. It took 3 trips to the dealer to fix the problem (not to mention putting on new tires). Car has a $4500 trade-in value and they said when all was done, they were "into it" for $6490.

And, no, its not your problem they overpaid (I've said that to dealers before... it doesn't make them happy). They will hold out and hope someone comes along that wants to bail them out.

Regardless, its too much. They may have stepped up if its super nice and given the guy $18k for it (manheim says $17k is about right for a 330 coupe with 60k). In the end, $21k would be the absolute end of the world if you just couldn't live without it.

isellhondas

This happens [pretty often ESPECIALLY on European cars.

The car is extra nice so we step up to the plate and pay all of the money for it. then two days later an ABS, CEL or Air Bag light decides to come on.

Take it to the dealer and find out it's (usually) the worst possible thing it can be.

We once paid 1400.00 to have an air bag problem taken care of on a Volvo!

Land Rovers were the worst, followed closely by Volvos and Audis.

BMW's and Mercedes were real good at doing this too just not as bad as the others I mentioned.

It used to drive some shoppers NUTS because they couldn't know how much we had invested in our used cars. They were scared to death I think that we just might be making a bit too much profit.

A serious problem like a CEL could easilly put us in the red on some used cars.

breld

Well, the wheels are being refinished, so the car won't be available to look at until Friday morning. Too bad - I have a free evening and was eager to see it. But for the sake of that eagerness, probably not a bad thing either.

kyfdx

If you test drive it.... watch for a hesitation around 4K RPM... There is a TSB and software update to fix it ... and, it's not covered by the CPO warranty..

The software update works.... but, it's not cheap... This is specific to the ZHP...

michaellno

And, no, its not your problem they overpaid (I've said that to dealers before... it doesn't make them happy). They will hold out and hope someone comes along that wants to bail them out.

When I was talking to the salesman / manager at the Porsche dealership last Saturday, he admitted that sometimes they get caught just like the rest of us. When that happens, they too hope someone will bail them out, but sometimes they have to take their medicine and accept a loss on the sale.

kyfdx

Drove one tonight... nice ride.. 550 HP!!

roadburner

But look what I found:





It's a 325is with under 100k and records back to the original owner. The only faults are a bad aux fan(a new one is included), a check control light for a brake light, and possible a battery.

What do you think it's worth?

roadburner

They are tempting, although I think I'd rather have a Boss 302 with the Laguna Seca Package:

kyfdx

Killing me... is it an '89? or, an early '90 (no airbag wheel)?

What's it worth? Depends on which forum you ask... If it's BFest or BForums, its worth about $2800... If its R3V or E30tech, it's worth about $5000..... lol..

You tell me...

isellhondas

Looks nice but WHY don't people simply FIX those nagging problems that detract from the car?

This could be a sign that the owner has skimped on it by not jumping on problems as the pop up.

It also looks like a repaint which can be a good thing if he didn't take it to Earl Schieb or Maaco.

oregonboy

I would love to have a nice E30 like that.... the Mustang, I wouldn't want to own.

roadburner

Looks nice but WHY don't people simply FIX those nagging problems that detract from the car?

This could be a sign that the owner has skimped on it by not jumping on problems as the pop up.

It also looks like a repaint which can be a good thing if he didn't take it to Earl Schieb or Maaco.

The owner is a hard-core BMW CCA member and general enthusiast from one of the long time BMW Yahoo groups. He has too many other BMWs and he is thinning the herd.

isellhondas

Well, if he is such a hard core BMW CCA member, he should KNOW that these problems should be fixed!

And he should have the knowledge or the resourses to fix them instead of making excuses a person would think!

roadburner

Well, if he is such a hard core BMW CCA member, he should KNOW that these problems should be fixed!

They aren't major problems at all; R&R of the aux fan is simple and the bogus "Brake Light Out" message is just a minor nit to pick. Contrast that with two dealer cars that I looked at. Both were advertised as being in great condition, had one had an SRS light on and a horrible shimmy at 65 while the other had a bad ABS controller and was also throwing a knock sensor CEL.

kyfdx

So.. what is he asking?

And... are you buying it?

michaellno

rb, that is one nice BMW ... did you take both pictures? I ask because the interior shot looks very professional.

I like Mustangs - the wife doesn't.

Update - I'm trying to get the wife to go to the Springs Mazda dealer with me tomorrow to take a look at the MazdaSpeed 3 they have on the lot.

As I mentioned a few days ago, I got a coupon in the mail for an extra $2K on my trade .. which would put me at about $8K total for the ION.

The MS3 they have on the lot contains the tech package (xenon headlights, keyless entry, nav) and stickers for about $27K. Edmunds TMV puts the value at around $25K, plus I think there is a $1K rebate. Subtract the $8K trade value and I'm at $16K + tax (title and license is not factored into a deal in Colorado). I also believe Mazda is offering 0% financing, so if I took that instead of the rebate my payments would be quite reasonable.

The only thing I'd have to do is get a winter tire/wheel package, as the MS3 comes with summer tires only. I did a quick price check on Tire Rack - about $900 would get me 17" wheels and tires (stock size is 18").

Ah, who am I kidding ... I'm probably in a holding pattern until my wife is finished with her degree, which will be next summer. But, it can't hurt to look.

isellhondas

No, I understand the problems are minor. What I don't understand is why sellers like him don't simply FIX these minor problems before putting their cars on the market.

I've NEVER seen an older BMW for sale that didn't have at least one warning light on and it's always something"minor".

That was my point.

kyfdx

So.. what is he asking?

And... are you buying it?

qbrozen

So, after spending this past sunday replacing control arms and bearings, the wife springs it on me that she wants to sell the Saab and find something else. No real reason. She's just tired of it. Guess after 10 years, I'm rubbing off in a bad way.

Well, I didn't waste any time. I had the day off yesterday, so I cleaned it up again and put it out front with a sign and on craigs late last night.

We're in no rush for a replacement, but I'm trying to direct her to a '60s convertible. something like a Futura or Valiant. Kind of smallish with a 6-cyl and auto. Maybe we'll hit the Hershey show in the fall and see what's there.

michaellno

he wife springs it on me that she wants to sell the Saab and find something else. No real reason. She's just tired of it. Guess after 10 years, I'm rubbing off in a bad way.

Well, gee, you should be happy that you get to look, and test drive, and compare notes, and share your findings will all of your friends here at Edmunds.

I'm trying to direct her to a '60s convertible. something like a Futura or Valiant. Kind of smallish with a 6-cyl and auto.

What about a Mustang?

qbrozen

What about a Mustang?

Yes, that too, but typically going to be more than we want to spend. I don't quite know our price cap yet. Lower the better, but probably will be nothing over $6k.

jayrider

After working in the car business for so long, you know there is no answer to the way lunkheads present their cars for sale or trade or service. Reminds me of a sign in the local Honda motorcycle service area. "Bringing your dirtbike in for service without washing it is like going to the Doctor for hemorrhoids and not wiping your a**."

michaellno

"Bringing your dirtbike in for service without washing it is like going to the Doctor for hemorrhoids and not wiping your a**."

I've got a very large glass of water on my desk and I'm really glad I didn't have a mouthful when I read that statement as I would have spit it out all over my keyboard and screen.

Classic!

graphicguy

Shelby 'vert......oooohhhhh.....aahhhhhhh!

You thinking of pulling the trigger on one?

Or, just "kicking tires"?

Dealership car? Which one?

kyfdx

Nah...a friend of mine bought it a couple months ago.... Just stopped over to let me drive it...

We did go to look at another 325iS today.. Very nice... made an offer, which was kindly refused...

Still looking..

isellhondas

You guys have finally gotten to me.

About a month or so ago, I ran into a wonderful 1990 Buick Reatta and I bought it. I thought our son would love it but I was wrong. I thought it was a car we could share and enjoy together. no dice.

Meeting a guy today. Original owner of a 1998 GT Mustang Convertable.

150,000 miles but maintained like no other according to him. V-8, 5 speed etc.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/2504898954.html

Looks like I may have a very nice Buick Reatta for sale.

Anyone?

EDIT: Wife says "No way are you selling that Reatta!"

kyfdx

Yeah.. this is a dangerous place to hang around.. :shades:

elias

aside from resale value and looking cooler and being easier to work-on/replace-pads,
i understand that the performance advantage of discs vs drums is less fade due to heat.
so unless you are racing it ought not matter.
sincerely,
just bought a car with rear drum brakes which work wicked good

oregonboy

That's a pretty nice looking Mustang, but didn't you use to refer to that color as "No-Sale Green"?

isellhondas

Actually that Hunter Green color doesn't detract much from that Mustang.

Went to look at it with our son. Of course, son was biting at the bit to just buy it but I was hesitant.

It belonged to the original owner who just bought a Mini Convertable. Very nice guy but determined to get top dollar for his Mustang.

It has a nice scrape on one side that I guessed was a 1500.00 repair. He had an estimate from Maaco for less than 400.00. I've seen Maaco's work and I wouldn't let them paint my wheelbarrow.

Ran well with a barely detectable miss in the engine. I'm guessing plug wires and it had loosness in the front end. It also needed two new (expensive) 17 inch rear tires.

His bottom line was 3600.00. He said he had a ready buyer at 3500.00. I suggested he take the money and run!

We parted friends and he has my number.

Does anyone here think he would really walk a guy over 100.00 on a car he has no use for?

Didn't think so.

corvette

Cars with four-wheel discs tend to have better brake pedal feel. I think part of the "mushy brake pedal syndrome" that plagued GM vehicles for years had to do with the rear drum brakes on most models.

akangl

Original owner of a 1998 GT Mustang Convertable.

Very pretty car, I like that color combo. Good thing I am spending all my mad money on my truck or I'd be on the hunt for a toy.

Leveling kit, 20" wheels/tires, vent shades, and spray in bedliner. Not quite finished yet......



My daughter is eyeballing a lime squeeze colored Ford Fiesta.........at least its not a Honda Element.....