Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

michaellno

Nah, I don't look at it as justification, just some background in the family decision making process.

I know I get knocked for my attitude about Saturns. It's not that Hondas are bad cars - I've had 3 Accords - it's that Saturns (at least those that still have the polymer panels) hold up pretty well with our Colorado winters and parking lot kisses. And, the wife really likes the purchase process that we've had.

Anyway, the car goes into the shop tomorrow. I've actually seen the problem first hand now, so I've got my fingers crossed that it's something simple like a loose connection or a bad battery - both of these are possible causes of the problems we've been seeing.

After getting the diagnosis and cost estimate to repair, the wife and I will make a decision about what direction to go.

michaellno

I suppose it depends upon how long you plan on keeping the new ride, and how many miles you are going to put onto it.

On the surface, an '03 model year anything with over 50K on it would seem excessive (the '03 L that I bought in 11/2002 has 45K on it), but this is Alaska, where "average" mileage per year takes on a whole new meaning.

It seems hard to justify $22-24K on a 2 or 3 year old car, but again, your neck of the woods seems to do strange things to resale values.

From a mechanical standpoint, I would think that you will get an easy 120-150K out of that 3.5L V6 - heck, I hope so, as that's the same engine that is in my wife's VUE!

Bottom line, if you feel comfortable with the car, go for it.

growwise

c class

sunday 26th article - c class interior shot

guss

around here had brand new Pilots for sale at $25,000. Aren't the only options on a Pilot leather and Nav.?

For another $2k , I would be going new.

british_rover

Ehhh I don't know if I like that at all. I guess I will have to wait till I see one in person.

nippononly

They have a new cheaper model this year - LX trim level with FWD. That is likely the discount model you are seeing in the newspaper ads.

Honda is also running a lease special on the FWD LX, have been for a while.

guss

probably the one. They had the Ridgeline for the same price, are they making that in 2wd now too or are they just not selling so the discount is a bit deeper?

smittynyc

"I looked at all of these and chose the Escape.

My needs may be a little different than yours though.

Being 6'6" head and legroom were a priority. That knocked the Subie's out right away."

A Forester wouldn't have passed your second test (three car seats) anyway, but I thought I'd point out that according to CR, the Forester has a half-inch more headroom and 1.5 inches more leg room than the Escape. I'm not quite 6-6 (6-3), but I don't even have to put the seat all the way back in our Forester.

guss

plenty of headroom, it was more of a legroom thing. With the center stack my knee was pinched up against the steering wheel.

I should have mentioned I am also 250lbs, and have kind off tree trunk legs.(I hope I am not turning on too many of the women folk here with this personal talk )

smittynyc

"I had the chance to sit in one of these a couple of weeks back. Nice little ride. Comfortable seats, nice dash layout and not real big. I'm just wondering about the gas mileage penalty with any Subie that's got all wheel drive."

Sandman,

We have an 04 Forester X and couldn't be happier with it. It's fun to drive, it is unbeatable in winter slop, and it's a good value. It's not perfect -- no stability control (not even on the 06s), and yes, the backseat is smallish (although I think people get a little dramatic about this sort of thing sometimes). But all in all, it's been a pleasure.

In my experience (just about two calendar years and 24K mi.), the AWD mileage penalty is pronounced in stop-and-go city driving and minimal in highway/rural settings. We live in New York City, and if we go an entire tank driving exclusively in the city, I've registered as low as 15 mpg (EPA is 21, IIRC). Exclusively highway, I've gotten just over 30 mpg on a couple tankfuls. And in light suburban/mixed/rural types of driving, I've gotten around 26-28 (EPA is 28).

There is a "real-world mileage" thread in the Subaru discussions, too, in case I haven't presented a scenario that matches your daily driving habits here.

smittynyc

I hear ya . . . It's always interesting to drive friends' or family members' cars and realize that people who are at first glance approximately the same size can have such dramatically different driving positions.

davesbrew

I'm having a very hard time deciding. Any thoughts on the smartest buy? Residual value and reliability are the top priorities. Also, I just got a fairly upscale job and my 94 altima w/ 194k and hail damage is frankly a little of an embarrassment, so hence the new (to me) car.
Also, I drive new places frequently, so nav is a plus.

I found the following at a neighborhood small lot that I drive by regularly.

The contenders:
2001 Lexus GS430 with nav(the only one in this bunch) and chrome wheels and 44k mi. This was a 3 owner + repo car. Decent condition, but does look a little more worn than the others. Price about 21k

2002 Lexus ES300 with only 19k miles and chrome. No idea how many owners, but looks sharp. The extremely low miles make me worry a bit about odometer rollback, so before any purchase is made i'll be looking for signs and getting carfax report. Price about 21k

2004 Acura TL with 31k miles. This one looks very nice inside, and I have to say, I'm intrigued by the standard bluetooth and dvd-audio. I'm not positive, but think this might be the only one with any warranty. Price about 23-24k

Note all prices haven't been dickered down yet, but for starting prices strike me as very fair.

Any thoughts? Before I saw these, I was considering a new civic or mazda3, as I am a young feller, and 20k is a lot of money to me but saw these for about the same price and am strongly considering them. Just have no clue which is a better bet.

Thanks much for any input.

british_rover

I would stay away from the GS430 sounds like trouble. Three owners does not necessarily scare me off but three owners in 5 years and a repo does.

The Lexus actually does have warranty left since Lexus offers a 6 year 70,000 miles powertrain warranty in additon to the base 4 year 50,000 miles full warranty.

If you do not need the extra room that the ES offers I would go with the TL it is a much better drivers car. I recently sold a 2004 TL with automatic and navigation for 22,000 and it had 53,000 miles so 23-24 is a very fair price.

prosa

Before I saw these, I was considering a new civic or mazda3, as I am a young feller, and 20k is a lot of money to me but saw these for about the same price and am strongly considering them.

Get the Mazda3. My wife bought one a few weeks ago, an S Touring model, and it's very well equipped - moonroof, 6-CD changer, side airbags, 4-wheel disc brakes - and cost just over $18K. Not to mention that there's full warranty coverage.

grandtotal

I have no comment on which of the three cars to buy. However, reading your comment about $20K being a lot of money to you (it is to most people) I thought I would comment that you should be prepared for running costs that will be more like those of an entry luxury car than an economy car.

michaellno

My .02, FWIW, is if you are looking to spend 20 grand, why not stretch a bit and get a new Accord with NAV?

Also, I just got a fairly upscale job and my 94 altima w/ 194k and hail damage

My BIL is a comptroller with a mortgage brokerage firm and feels that he "needs" to be seen in a leased BMW 5-series. Sorry, I don't buy it.

I guess my point isn't to bash you for your choice, but rather recommend that you get something new instead of a car that will be 6-10 years old when you have it paid off. With the new car, you should still have lots of life left after the payments are over and done with.

Unless, you're like most of us here in the CCBA forum and switch cars about as frequently as Britney Spears gets married (or Elizabeth Taylor, depending on what era you grew up in).

Good luck!

davesbrew

thanks for the input. It's great to get others' perspectives on a pretty major purchase. Re: the mazda, we qualify for a supplier's discount, but the way i loaded it, it was around 22k, and for that price, I thought I'd check these out. Going test-driving this afternoon. Will probably have a clearer picture then.

Michaell-- I usually feel the same way as you, which is why I've driven my altima into the ground. I'm now surrounded by folks who all have the luxury nameplates (as well as nicer suits drycleaned more frequently than mine), and am starting to feel a bit of peer pressure. Also, I'm currently unable to drive clients anywhere. Chances are I'll have this next car a good long while, so as loaded and comfortable as possible would be nice, as I'm more of a chronic car shopper than buyer. So it sounds like you would recommend loading up a new economy car (civic/mazda3 or Accord) over getting a few year old luxo-car. (Even over the 04 TL?)

british_rover

If you need to carry four full sized adults around on a semi regular basis then the TL may not be the right choice. The back seats are a little tight compared to the ES300.

nippononly

I was gonna say go Mazda3 until you said you had to drive clients around in it. In that case, the ES is probably the one for you - as british rover says, the TL is moderately tight for four adults, whereas they will have all the room they need in the ES. Either the ES or the TL should be OK even on a five-year loan, but just remember you will be upside-down in your loan for a while.

That GS sounds like a mess, and has high running costs - avoid like the plague! :-)

guss: yeah, the Ridgeline is just selling slowly, making the discounts deeper than the new Pilot LX.

tifighter

Not to throw a curveball in this, but didn't the 02 ES300's have tranny issues?

Personally, I like the TSX over the TL, but it is smaller. You might find a G35 in this range if you hunt; that would be a good one...

michaellno

Hmm, I guess I must have missed the part where you have to take clients with you. See, with my BIL (he of the $750/mo Bimmer lease payments) it's all about image.

In fact, he forced convinced my sister to trade in her perfectly serviceable Honda Odyssey for a GMC Yukon Denali with 20" wheels because (gasp!) he couldn't be seen driving a minivan.

Heck, if you're looking to spend $20-25K on a ride and it needs to seat 4 (?) comfortably, I'd look at getting a used Cadillac DTS .. here in Denver, '03 model years are selling for about that price point. Heck, any of the larger domestic sedans ('03, '04 or '05 model years) could be found in that price range all day long (Chrysler 300, Buicks, Mercury or Lincoln, for that matter).

woodyww

I don't know the values of these. But I agree with a previous poster, nix the Lexus with 3 owners + repo car. That's a no brainer.

As far as: *The extremely low miles make me worry a bit about odometer rollback*.....it's amazing how many people will work themselves into a snit over a really nice low mileage vehicle; worrying about "OD rollback". Do a carfax, & get the previous service history (from a lexus dealer).

As a quick guess tho, the 2004 Acura TL with 31k might be the best deal, if it checks out.

catam

My .02 FWIW.
I'd sit in the back of each to check the legroom for your self, my guess is the TL will be plenty comfy for 4 adults, I know my 04 accord was fine for adults in back.

That said, I would vote for the TL or the ES 300 (depending on options on the ES). My first choice would be the TL. Its a sweet ride with plenty of power. The only option avail on an 04 TL was a nav system, they came well equipped, not necessarily true for the ES.
Also, buying used you are not likely to take nearly as big a depreciation hit as you would buying new. If you end up turning the car over in a couple of years, the new Mazda 3 will likely be worth half what the TL is.

If you want to take maximum advantage of the depreciation hit by buying used, I would recommend buying American, like other posters have mentioned, you could be in a very nice Caddy/ Lincoln, etc for your 21K, and some other sucker paid 10-12K in depreciation for you to have the priveledge of owning a really nice car.

My current example, I just traded my wife's 04 Accord EX lthr on an 03 Suburban LT lthr. Bought the Accord for 24500 OTD, and traded it for 17k. Bought the Burb for 18,400 original MSRP was 45K. After sales tax cancel from the trade (saved me $1100), I was OTD on the burb for just over 19K.

steine13

Also, buying used you are not likely to take nearly as big a depreciation hit as you would buying new.

Just 'cuz everyone knows that buying used saves money don't make it so... Honda, Acura, Lexus, and to some extent Toyota have a pretty darned flat depreciation curve. Might as well buy the first years if they all cost the same...

-Mathias

catam

I agree with what you said. Thats why when I bought new I bought a Honda.
But he is thinking about a new Mazda 3 compared to a used Acura TL or Lexus ES. Its kinda a no brainer which car is gonna depreciate the quickest.

kyfdx

Ditto for me..

You could stretch up to the $25K-$26K range.. get a Honda Accord V-6 with NAV... Brand new... warranty.. Gobs of power, NAV to find your way home, leather interior, and more interior room than a TL..

I guarantee that you will save more in repair/maintenance costs over the next 3-4 years, than the extra money you spend over any of those used cars.. And, you won't be giving up anything but cachet to those other cars..

regards,
kyfdx

british_rover

keep in mind that the TL is based on the european accord so it is small then the american version of the accord.

I love the TL because it is kind of like a grown up Integra but the back seats are tighter then in the ES300. The ES300 is a blah mobile and if the one you are looking at is a 2001 then it is the older body style with the funky frameless windows. Frameless windows are fine if the windows crank down a quarter inch when you open the door then roll up to make a tight seal but Lexus did not do that.

andre1969

the one that's based on the European Accord, and is therefore tighter inside than the typical US-market midsizer? I think the TL's actually fairly roomy inside. Maybe a touch tighter in the back seat than the Accord, but I could probably deal with it if I had to.

As for the Lexus ES, I actually think the older styles with the frameless windows (1993-1997 and 1998-2002? Don't they usually run a year behind the Camry?) are pretty cool! I know most people say they're about as dull as it gets, but I always thought the style, at least, was pretty sporty.

guss

I think you mean the TSX is based on the european Accord. The TL is a larger than our Accord.

My vote would be a new TSX also. It's a little smaller than the Accord,and more interesting style wise.

asafonov

keep in mind that the TL is based on the european accord so it is small then the american version of the accord.

Actually, TSX is based on the smaller Euro Accord. Previous generation TL certainly shared the platform with NA-market Accord; I believe the 04+ does too. Does not mean that a TL cannot be smaller on the inside...

Interesting info on the Lexus, I did not know they did frameless windows like the Subies.

nippononly

when you are buying a car to ride clientele around in, you want a car that leans toward comfort rather then sport - remeber, these are strangers in the back seat, not your friends. Which makes the ES perhaps the best choice of the ones mentioned.

But I agree with a poster above, stretch a bit for the Accord EX V-6 and you will have all of that in a NEW car you can get for $25K with full warranty, and leather seats to boot.

british_rover

You are right the TSX is the euro market accord. The new TL still seems smaller then the accord out right now though.

woodyww

I've been checking out the new RAV4 (online, I haven't driven one yet). It's getting great reviews--a Limited 4dr SUV 4WD (3.5L 6cyl 5A) "starts" at $25,870, but you might not need a Limited even.

Or what about a used current-gen 4 Runner? You have to try really hard to wear them out. (I'm on a Toyota kick this week).

As far as: *should I be afraid of a miled up Honda?* At 60K, any vehicle is going to start needing stuff replaced. Brakes, exhausts, etc. are not cheap on a Honda, let alone an Acura. My impression is that Honda & Acura dealer service depts. can be quite expensive.

michaellno

The Saturn dealer just called .. it is the dreaded Body Control Module that has failed in the L300. The good news is that it's only going to cost half as much as it did to repair the brakes 3 weeks ago. The bad news is that it's still a lot of money.

Have also decided to keep it for the time being .. no trade in on the ION, at least this week.

However, the wife did point out that if we have any more issues with the L, we're gonna cut it loose from the herd.

PS - while at the dealer this morning dropping the car off, I noticed the sign that shows how much is added to every new car transaction for doc fees, etc.

$489.95!

Ouch! I don't think so.

corvette

$489.95 - that's just insane. Saturn is supposed to be the one price, no haggle brand, which kind of implies a lack of ridiculous markups.

nippononly

already needing exhaust work????

Brake pads are like $200/axle, even on Acuras, even at the dealer. Not a major consideration when buying a recent model car.

4Runners hold their value really well, getting one under $20K in 4WD might mean buying a 4 or 5 year old. Which would be OK too, it just might be older than what jolie is looking for.

The new RAV4 starts at about $22K for the most basic AWD model. With the Limited you get stuff like bigger rims and factory stereo with subwoofer, but who really needs that stuff? The $22K model has all the stuff most people care about. But of course, it's not a truck and doesn't pretend to be. I think it would make a good snow car, but if a lot of your driving is not on paved roads, I don't know how well it would hold up over time. I guess at least as well as an '04 Focus ('03, '05?)! :-)

british_rover

And that is why they have such a stupid high doc fee they have to get some profit some where and by putting it into the doc fee they don't have to pay anyone commission on it.

Our doc fee is 239 which is reasonable for the stupid amount of paperwork most of our deals require. I do feel bad charging someone the Doc fee when it is a cash transaction with no trade though. I feel really bad when it is someone buying from way out of state and we aren't even registring the car for them so there is only 2-3 bits of paper generated.

guss

Incredible $500 for fees. I have never paid more than $80 for tags and fees.

Why odes it sound like you are hoping for another "issue" with the Saturn? Is an oil change an "issue", because I have traded not for that alone , but it didn't hurt if one was coming up.

corvette

I always change the oil shortly before trading a car in (unless the dealer has the service records), because I don't there to be anything that would suggest lax maintenance. I don't spring for synthetic oil when doing that, so it's only a few bucks.

I concur about the fees--effectively, retail buyers at that store are paying $500 over list for a Saturn.

bobw3

Rear seat in the Mazda5 is adequate only for small children

I guess you're talking about the 3rd row of the Mazda5, but since the 2nd row seats slide fore and aft, you can add some more room to the 3rd row.

corvette

Yes, I meant the third row... I still think it's a really neat car, if a little down on power. (Disclaimer: I haven't driven it.)

growwise

There are no outer side armrests in second row for mazda5 which is a deal breaker for many. Even passenger seat is missing one side IMO. If you dont mind your arm hanging around, mazda5 is a nifty piece of machinery.

geo9

Folks......brake work at a shop can be a REAL $pendy
item nowadays because of LIABILITY !!!!!!!!!!

NO more marginal parts........Most places replace everything under the sun. The old days of popping
the cup outta the caliper and WET sanding off the rust
spots on the pusher are gone ! Mr. dealer replaces
the $30 (GM car) rebuilt caliper with a $pendy $125
new one. I can just imagine what a "import" caliper
cost !
Not to mention by most state laws only .05-.10 thousands
can be cut off a rotor. Then its a new $150 (retail)
rotor replacement.

That $99 brake job turns into a $500 or more per axle
brake job on ANY make car............... :sick:

andre1969

I got off relatively cheap with the brake work on my Intrepid. I've paid twice now to have the rear brakes done, at 51K and 102K miles. That came out to around $200 apiece, having the mechanic do it. I've heard that the rear brakes are harder to do than the front brakes. Never really looked into it myself, but just took it at face value and paid to have it done.

As for the front brakes, I replaced the pads at 39K and 69K miles. Then at around 97K I had to do the pads AND rotors. I forget what the first two times cost, but this past time I think it was around $83 for the parts (2 rotors, pads) and I put 'em on myself.

akangl

Is a small SUV to cart me and the kids, that might be just to town or to anchorage for dr appts, or it might be down the logging road (which Zippy has been on once). So, 4WD/AWD is a must.

I'm going to wander out during my daughter's nap today and take a look at what's out there. Staying closed up in a hospital room with a 10 year old all day can drive one to insantity.

Needs are: Decent gas mileage (high teens/low 20's), 4WD/AWD, safety, reliability, and resale value. The plan is to live with it for a couple years then trade it for a Honda Pilot (what I really really want).

I've had thoughts of selling Zippy then paying cash for an older Explorer/4Runner/Pathfinder in the $5000 range. That way I wouldn't care if I banged it up and my brother could get parts out of the junkyard where he works and he could fix it.

At least I've got a little time.

One more question, any thoughts about a used Escape (wouldn't buy one new)? I had one for a month as a rental when the Titan was down, really liked it too.

michaellno

I agree with what's been said ... the $489.95 for the doc fees is, IMO, a blatant attempt to get more profit from the customer. In addition, I've seen that the local Saturn dealerships all add pinstriping, clear bras and other "accessories" that adds hundreds more to the sale price.

It's almost enough to get me to switch to another brand, should that time come.

The brake job that I recently had done on the L included pads and rotors front and back and calipers for the fronts ... and since the L is 'quasi' European, those parts were pretty pricey.

Jolie, if you're thinking about a new SUV, why not consider the VUE? The wife's AWD V6 has the same Honda engine and transmission as the Pilot and MDX; the wife regularly gets about 22MPG (and she's a bit of a leadfoot - the EPA numbers are 19 city and 25 highway); it's a decent size and the polymer panels won't dent or rust.

nippononly

I beg to differ! The third row in the Mazda5 is one of the roomiest I have been in. Certainly beats the heck out of most SUVs' third rows, and I would say that two adults could ride for hours comfortably in the third row.

And yes, the second row slides fore and aft to help accomodate the third row if need be. The Mazda5 really isn't that much smaller than those first 80s minivans - it just lacks the cargo room they had, but has 95% of the passenger room, and more seat versatility.

Plus, you can have it with a stick - can't say that about any of the current minivans or most of the SUVs either. I really hope the '5' turns out to be a huge hit for Mazda.

pisulino

I agree with you only if the 3rd row passengers are 5'2" or shorter.
There is no way that adult passengers could ride in Mazda 5 3rd row for hours.
It's a good emergency "I have to drive 5" people to somewhere type of thing. It's not a full time 6 passenger vehicle.

geo9

I just came back from Daytona for bike week.
DOC fees in the dealer ads were anywhere from
$499 to $699 bucks !!!!!!!!!!!!
(In Fl. all addl. fees must be plainly disclosed
in all print ads by law)

Sure glad NY law limits DOC to $45 !

woodyww

I guess I don't understand this, paying big $$ to repair a Saturn?? But you still want to buy Saturns?

If you had an older Jag, or 7-series bmw or M-B, an expensive euro/luxury car, I could see paying the high repair bills to enjoy that kind of car. But to own a Saturn??? They're supposed to be inexpensive, reliable cars, right?

No offense, but I think this might be "intervention time". And time to shop Toyotas or Hondas perhaps? just my 2 cents,