A un reported accident may never show up unless that body shop sells vin number info. Yes there are instances when accidents are overlooked or not found. for the most part carfax is big business and people are getting paid to find or give up this info..
My son made no claim about a 100% acuracy for Carfax He stated a fact about police reporting a accident and your Vin number on file with DMV. Once that accidents show up on a dmv file thru a police accident report or not carfax will find it when they run that vin number. That you could bet is a 100% guarantee. As I posted above there are so many other ways carfax may obtain accident info.
There are very few Ins. companies who wont disclose accident info these days. Seems everybody likes that extra cash comming in so selling info is easy money..
CARFAXES, DMV's, BODY SHOPS - WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
Friends, we are commenting and arguing over validity and consistency - but what about the degree of damage?
CARFAX reports, DMV reports and body shop / insurance reports (police reports included) rarely inform about the specific damage sustained by the cars involved in an accident. Rear end collision or sustained rear end damage says nothing about severity.
That is why I still contend that these reports are just added tools for the appraiser. When I noted a report indicated damage, I just looked at the car more closely to determine the quality of the repair (or lack thereof) or of the damage sustained included frame damage which would show up as "unibody damage" on a report.
Yes, I've appraised many cars that had sustained damage but the CARFAX showed nothing. If the body had been repainted, I merely asked the customer why and the amount of damage. If needed, I put the car on a lift.
But these are not foolproof and often alarm when they shouldn't or have no negatives on the report and I identified unibody damage.
@breld said:
I like the look of that new Forte 5 door. But I'd give some consideration to resale value - those Mazda3's do really well; not so sure on the Kia.
Kia Forte has been very favorably reviewed. I've never even thought about a Kia, but after reading the Forte hatch reviews in a number of places, that might be something I would look at when it's time to replace the Vibe.
I personally know a number of cars that have been in wrecks (one multiple times) and they have clean CARFAX reports. So yeah, look at the CARFAX, but also LOOK AT THE CAR--you might be sorry if you don't. I look at what the car tells me and compare that to the CARFAX. If the two disagree, I believe the car
I help my neighbor buy a 2013 accord last year. She complained to me when she tried to trade back her vehicle that it was worth 18k. The Dealer told her carfax has her with a frontal crash with damages of 11k to her vehicle with airbag deployment. Dealer told her the vehicle was only worth 12k due to the accident. Carfax will definitely work against you with accidents.
My wife had a bad accident where she was hit by a truck that caused 8k in damage. even thou it was fixed.... with a carfax note of accident I sold car alot cheaper than i wanted.
@breld, Yeah, the Kia might not hold resale value quite as well, but this is either going to be a lease, so doesn't matter, or he will keep it for a long time, so doesn't really matter.
we have not driven one yet, but probably will before deciding (though given the fact that I doubt our local roads will de-ice within the next 10 days or so, that could be a while). We will be going to the Philly car show (starts 2/1) and that may happen before any more test drives.
@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I personally know a number of cars that have been in wrecks (one multiple times) and they have clean CARFAX reports. So yeah, look at the CARFAX, but also LOOK AT THE CAR--you might be sorry if you don't. I look at what the car tells me and compare that to the CARFAX. If the two disagree, I believe the car
This serms to happen more often than not. Regardless of the Carfax, the car, if given a good inspection, will tell you all you need to know. Actually, someone who knows what to look for will be able to spot accident work fairly easily.
@breld said:
Funny - after I read your post I looked at their inventory too to see if I could tempt you over there. You're right - very slim on their Countryman inventory. Weird.
I did pop in for a few minutes - they did have a Countryman S ALL4 in the showroom.
First impressions - they updated the ergonomics a bit by putting the power window switches on the door rather than in the center console like on my daughters 2010 Cooper. And, not a tremendous amount of space behind the rear seats. Even though we are only gone one night, here is what we took with us:
small athletic bag for wife
small athletic bag for me
CPAP case
small backpack
bag for projector
bag for laptop
bag with 3 ring binders and wife's iPad
And, since the wife had a $100 Target gift card and some time to spare, there are now 4 or 5 bags of stuff as well.
Plus, we plan on stopping at The Container Store on the way home tomorrow - who knows how much we're gonna pick up there.
Pretty sure we'd have to put stuff in the back seat of the Countryman or fold the seats down to get it all to fit.
Check out the new 2014 mdx not as big inside as enclave but early reviews on this new mdx are; great ride, and handling, Fun to drive, with 2nd row seats sliding back and fourth with pwr button . With the mdx interior room within 1 to 2 inches of the buick you wont feel cheated in space.. MDX is a better resale vehicle. Might want to check out the Q60 nice size decent write up
It's ironic, isn't it, that the most beautiful repair job done by a craftsman, still devalues a car? I wonder if all the restored Rembrandts have an Artfax or a home restored after a fire has a Housefax?
I agree. A lot of people think an accident forever ruins a car yet a quality shop can make a car just as nice as when it left the factory. Your examples are excellent!
I'm checking out the Saturday Screamer ads as I always do & notice a decent amount of 2013 leftovers still being advertised: Dodge Durangos, Toyota Highlanders, Honda Accords (9), Civics (a dealer claims to have 40), Fits, CRVs (2), Nissan Rogues, a Hot Wheels Edition Camaro SS, Silverados, a Tahoe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
@MrShift@Edmunds.com said: "It's ironic, isn't it, that the most beautiful repair job done by a craftsman, still devalues a car? I wonder if all the restored Rembrandts have an Artfax or a home restored after a fire has a Housefax?"
This is just one of the problems associated with CARFAX. Remember, CARFAX reports accompany cars and light trucks to the auction. Damage is damage is damage, no matter who did the repair or how the repairs were done.
The older the car, the less impact a repair has on it's value. The newer the car, the more negatively the value is affected. Even in cases where a truly magnificent refinishing job was done, it still affects value.
When I appraised a car that had a truly marvelous repair/refinish job, I deducted less from the final appraisal, but even that could have put me in hot water at the auction - all because a CARFAX report indicated damage.
In cases where I had a car that showed damage on a CARFAX but the refinishing and repairs were outstanding, I often took a chance by putting it on my lot rather than wholesale it because I had some influence on the eventual sale process to the prospective buyer - showing him where the damage was and how well done the repairs were accomplished. But I got burned many times and had to eventually wholesale those cars at a loss.
It's not the dealerships fault for devaluing the trade in value, it is the auctions that cause the brunt of the devaluation.
I agree that a truly magnificent refinishing job should not affect the value of a car as significantly as a poorly done repair. But the market forces dictate value.
Was just at Hudson toyota in NJ. Dealer had 2 rows of 2013 highlanders on lot. I think the saleman would of stripped down to his trousers to sell me one today. The weather here in the Northeast has hurt sales this month. I wasn't even negotiating price yet on a 2013 and sales guy was throwing a 3000 below invoice number at me. I took his card and told him when I call the internet mgr next week with my offer for a fax sale purchase i will let them know your the reason why i'm back here..
The Nissan dealership next store had 2013 rogues lines up to.. place was dead with business.
As i'm leaving here comes the snow again.
Think its time to head back to my place in Myrtle beach for a month of golf.. Enough snow!!!
People who are Fortunate enough not to get in a Auto accident fail to realize that car fax will hurt your chance at a good price. Good repair or not .. Thats just the way it is... your example about a damaged car on your lot is what ive been saying. Folks will walk away unless your giving the car away for a steal.. I have 2 guys here in NY who do expert bodywork. All my vehicles that were damaged over the years with my kids ending up costing me in the end cause of carfax report .. I'm not talking about a bumper repair either. Damage 6k, 8,/ 10 k.
The older the vehicle , the less impact a repair has on its value.
By 1993 Carfax had obtained vehicle title info for all 50 states and in 1996 there website was up and running..
I don't want to go through learning about another European brand(except possibly Fiat/Abarth), but I found this charmer at my BMW dealer group...
1997 SL320: 33,219 miles
$13,500
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If we took in a trade that showed an accident on Car Fax we would go over it with a fine tooth comb. If we could tell the damage had been minimal or that repairs had been done in a first class manner we would put it on our lot. We would put an X before the stock number and disclose that to a prospective buyer.
As with most things, some would be bothered and others wouldn't care after looking the car over.
Depending on the year, make and value of the car, a accident on Carfax can affect value quite a bit or not at all.
Even on cars with clean Car Faxes, if a customer would ask, " Has this car ever been in an accident" we would tell them that we had no idea and that there was a good possibility that it had been. People were sometimes taken aback by a statement but most appreciated our honesty.
If a car had a salvage title it killed the value and those were wholesaled.
We once took in a Camry that showed FOUR separate accidents! We put the car up in the air and inspected it closely. Even our Used Car Manager could find no sign that the car had ever been in a collision. Paint was perfect, no sign of ANYTHING amiss.
We took that one to the auction and someone got a nice used car.
I'd imagine a 2013 Highlander with the 2014 redesign on the lots would be a screaming bargain. It's too small for our family of 5. IIRC, our Pilot is something like 12" or 13" longer which makes the 3rd row comfortable & still gives a decent amount of cargo space behind the 3rd row. Plus we are almost at the 3 year point of ownership (May) and owe less than $20K on it. I've also learned to live with its scratches, dings, and the fact that the interior doesn't get cleaned as much as it should. If we got a new car, I'd probably drive my wife insane about keeping it clean.
I know, I know, not good behavior for a Chronic Car Buyer's Anonymous member
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
Another value killer is a TMU - True Mileage Unknown car.
The odometer quits working so the next day the owner takes it to a dealer and gets it replaced with a new one. The mileage on the old one may or may not be readable if it's digital so a sticker go's on the door jamb stating the miles shown (if readable) on the broken odometer and the miles shown on the new one. Add those numbers together and that's the correct mileage, right?
Well, who knows if the owner didn't drive the car two years with a non working odometer?
Again, some prospective buyers will shy away, and others won't care.
Not necessarily. There are people who would look at the door sticker and not be bothered much.
A private seller could do better than a dealer because they could tell the story face to face with a prospective shopper. He could show service records showing dates and miles etc.
There is a saying in the car business..." There's a "butt" for every seat"
The pukey color that most people can't stand can be the ONLY color someone else will buy.
@isellhondas said: "Another value killer is a TMU - True Mileage Unknown car."
Luckily, isell, these are very few and far between - in other words fairly rare. You find TMU cars to be usually older and therefore cars we used to wholesale. I would never put one of those on my lot.
Of course, then there are salvage titles, another vehicle we usually put a hundred or so into and then sold for parts.
I remember once about 9 years ago, this guy drives in with a fairly nice looking Porsche Carrera. One of my appraisers put $25,000 on the car as a trade value. I decided to go out and look at the car myself. He had not yet pulled a CARFAX on the vehicle. I noticed some concealed welds on both rocker panels and then I put the car up on a lift. It became obvious that this was a car made up of two cars.
I asked the customer if he had the title, and he said he did not - that he is in the process of getting a duplicate title. I pulled a CARFAX report on the car and it showed that the car was totaled by the insurance company and sold for salvage. Amazing what some people will do to defraud or conceal evidence of a salvage car.
I told him he had 2 minutes to get in his car and get off my property before I called the police. He was off my lot in 1 minute and scraped the bottom of his "CARS" (front was one car, back was another) on my front curb.
Car sales is a great way to make a living, but it is also very stressful, as evidenced by this occurrence.
@stickguy I'm interested to hear your impressions of the Mazda3, that would be tops on my list if I was looking in this segment. But you never know until you drive it.
Had a landlady back in 2000 that had a Tercel that was cobbled together by her brother from two Tercels. Great cars but not known for safety and I always wondered what would have happened in a T-Bone. She loved her ride.
@roadburner said: " but I found this charmer at my BMW dealer group... 1997 SL320: 33,219 miles - $13,500"
A 15+ year old car with only. 33,219 miles on it. Interesting. That's a car I would want to see a CARFAX on, service history documentation, and while I was at it, a serious odometer check. If the car was only driven 2,000 miles a year, you have to ask lots of questions for obvious reasons.
But, if everything checks out, I'd be interested! The 6 cylinder versions actually are as good, if not better, than the 8 cylinder versions in a car this old. It would make a great commuter car or toy for Daddy or Mommy.
The main problems with MB's like this are the availability of parts. In my MB Club, several guys have these and are gorgeous vehicles. They are not classics yet but the SL's of that era were quite nimble.
Was just at Hudson toyota in NJ. Dealer had 2 rows of 2013 highlanders on lot. I think the saleman would of stripped down to his trousers to sell me one today. The weather here in the Northeast has hurt sales this month. I wasn't even negotiating price yet on a 2013 and sales guy was throwing a 3000 below invoice number at me.
I'm sure he would... Not only has the weather affected sales, but the Highlander is completely redesigned for 2014. I'm sure they need to get rid of the old models.
@isellhondas said:
If a car had a salvage title it killed the value and those were wholesaled.
For you and those who are or used to be in the biz, I thought dealer franchise agreements prohibited them from selling salvage title/TMU cars on the same lot as a franchised brand. Is that correct?
I think TMU vehicles are less common now with electronic odometers. Often, the mileage isn't even stored in the instrument cluster.
I knew of an S-2000 that had a Salvage Title. The car had been stolen and stripped of it's interior and the top was slit. It was an older model with 100,000 miles so it was totaled by the Insurance Co since the repairs exceeded it's value.
The owner decided to take the money offered by the Insurance Co and he kept the car.
He did this because someone had told him about a wrecked S-2000 that was being parted out. He bought the parts he needed and had a new top installed. The car looked like new afterwards.
He took a lot of photos of before and after so when the time comes, although the car still has a branded title he has a good story to tell.
@corvette said: " I thought dealer franchise agreements prohibited them from selling salvage title/TMU cars on the same lot as a franchised brand."
All I can tell you about this is that we never put a TMU or salvage titled vehicle on our lot - they were all wholesaled or sold for salvage. That was the policy of the dealer principal (owner). The policy may have something to do with our franchise agreement(s), but I was not privy to that possibility.
In retrospect, why would a dealership with integrity take a chance on selling a vehicle to a customer that was not properly titled, inspected and in proper working order? Fraud is a civil tort and has monetary penalties associated with disregarding state statutes protecting consumer rights and safety.
Yes, there are dealers who disregard laws and statutes, but a franchise could be jeopardized with a manufacturer for willful disregard of such laws and statutes, not to mention civil and criminal liability.
@au1994 said:
breld... Just wanted to check in and see if you have had any luck moving the vert or 335.
As a matter of fact, I was just getting prepared to post that I sold the 'vert today.
I had an e-mail last week that read a little funny, so I ignored it. But last night the same person inquired again and left his phone number. English is his second language - hence the short written email that I wrongfully dismissed.
So, he shows up with his friend who wants to purchase the car (who speaks little English), they take the 330ci for a test drive, offer a reasonable price, and I accept. He has a small bag full of cash, so we head over to my nearby office, write up the Bill of Sale, sign the title over, and....one car down! 2 more to go.
@nyccarguy said : "It is actually easier than ever to roll mileage back in your electronic odometer. All it takes is the guy with the right computer know how & $350."
Maybe so, NYC, but it would leave a tell-tale code in the drive showing the odometer was rolled back. So if a mechanic plugged in his data reader to determine code problems , this would show up .
Thus, if a dealer wanted to certify a car through the manufacturer, once they tap into the hard drive, it would "code"!
Have to be careful with that - there are severe monetary as well as criminal penalties for turning back mileage.
I would NEVER even think of committing odometer fraud. I'm just saying that there are unscrupulous people out there & I agree that it is most likely easily detectable. I think people do it to their lease returns nowadays.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
@nyccarguy said: "I would NEVER even think of committing odometer fraud. "
I thought that YOU would do something like that never even crossed my mind, Bradd. I was commenting about the fact that adjusting mileage through the computer leaves evidence of the change.
I am sure there are unscrupulous people out there that would jump at the chance - but they need to know of the consequences of their actions.
It is actually easier than ever to roll mileage back in your electronic odometer. All it takes is the guy with the right computer know how & $350.
Oh, definitely, I was thinking of "legitimate" TMU, like an old mechanical odometer that breaks and stops counting the miles. I'd say a mechanical failure like that is pretty rare nowadays.
@jpp5862 said:
stickguy I'm interested to hear your impressions of the Mazda3, that would be tops on my list if I was looking in this segment. But you never know until you drive it.
agreed that everyone needs to decide for themselves. but, I found it to be very nice. Great interior, upscale with lots of features and comfy seats. I also like the styling, but that certainly is totally subjective.
the other nice part is how well it drives. Sporty, great steering, firm but composed ride, etc. Basically the anti-Corolla.
Love the picture of your Q50. You got the right color - great looking vehicle. How has it been treating you?
Thanks! I wasn't really thrilled with the color choices Infiniti offers but I like this color more and more every day. The car is great, I love driving it and haven't had any issues with almost 2,500 miles. I think they have worked out some of the software bugs in the InTouch system since it was first released as I really don't have any issues.
I'd buy it again in a heartbeat. Well lease, but I wouldn't have regretted buying it.
Comments
isell
A un reported accident may never show up unless that body shop sells vin number info. Yes there are instances when accidents are overlooked or not found. for the most part carfax is big business and people are getting paid to find or give up this info..
My son made no claim about a 100% acuracy for Carfax He stated a fact about police reporting a accident and your Vin number on file with DMV. Once that accidents show up on a dmv file thru a police accident report or not carfax will find it when they run that vin number. That you could bet is a 100% guarantee. As I posted above there are so many other ways carfax may obtain accident info.
There are very few Ins. companies who wont disclose accident info these days. Seems everybody likes that extra cash comming in so selling info is easy money..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Friends, we are commenting and arguing over validity and consistency - but what about the degree of damage?
CARFAX reports, DMV reports and body shop / insurance reports (police reports included) rarely inform about the specific damage sustained by the cars involved in an accident. Rear end collision or sustained rear end damage says nothing about severity.
That is why I still contend that these reports are just added tools for the appraiser. When I noted a report indicated damage, I just looked at the car more closely to determine the quality of the repair (or lack thereof) or of the damage sustained included frame damage which would show up as "unibody damage" on a report.
Yes, I've appraised many cars that had sustained damage but the CARFAX showed nothing. If the body had been repainted, I merely asked the customer why and the amount of damage. If needed, I put the car on a lift.
But these are not foolproof and often alarm when they shouldn't or have no negatives on the report and I identified unibody damage.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Kia Forte has been very favorably reviewed. I've never even thought about a Kia, but after reading the Forte hatch reviews in a number of places, that might be something I would look at when it's time to replace the Vibe.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
I personally know a number of cars that have been in wrecks (one multiple times) and they have clean CARFAX reports. So yeah, look at the CARFAX, but also LOOK AT THE CAR--you might be sorry if you don't. I look at what the car tells me and compare that to the CARFAX. If the two disagree, I believe the car
abacoamike,
I help my neighbor buy a 2013 accord last year. She complained to me when she tried to trade back her vehicle that it was worth 18k. The Dealer told her carfax has her with a frontal crash with damages of 11k to her vehicle with airbag deployment. Dealer told her the vehicle was only worth 12k due to the accident. Carfax will definitely work against you with accidents.
My wife had a bad accident where she was hit by a truck that caused 8k in damage. even thou it was fixed.... with a carfax note of accident I sold car alot cheaper than i wanted.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@breld, Yeah, the Kia might not hold resale value quite as well, but this is either going to be a lease, so doesn't matter, or he will keep it for a long time, so doesn't really matter.
we have not driven one yet, but probably will before deciding (though given the fact that I doubt our local roads will de-ice within the next 10 days or so, that could be a while). We will be going to the Philly car show (starts 2/1) and that may happen before any more test drives.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This serms to happen more often than not. Regardless of the Carfax, the car, if given a good inspection, will tell you all you need to know. Actually, someone who knows what to look for will be able to spot accident work fairly easily.
For those of you looking:
autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2006&zip=06902&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&mmt=%5BBMW%5BM3%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=M3&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=510885&makeCode1=BMW&startYear=2001&searchRadius=200&bodyStyleCodes=COUPE&listingId=351804339&Log=0
an '05 well maintained E46 M3 Coupe (6 speed, no Xenons though)
autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2006&zip=06902&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&mmt=%5BBMW%5BM3%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=M3&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=510885&makeCode1=BMW&startYear=2001&searchRadius=200&bodyStyleCodes=COUPE&listingId=350989432&Log=0
The above is an '01 Laguna Seca Blue that's 5K over the century mark
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
For the ZHP Crowd, this one's pretty, pricey, but has ultra low miles: autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?endYear=2006&zip=06902&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&mmt=%5BBMW%5B330CI%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&modelCode1=330CI&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=510885&makeCode1=BMW&startYear=2005&searchRadius=200&bodyStyleCodes=COUPE&listingId=364170454&Log=0
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
I did pop in for a few minutes - they did have a Countryman S ALL4 in the showroom.
First impressions - they updated the ergonomics a bit by putting the power window switches on the door rather than in the center console like on my daughters 2010 Cooper. And, not a tremendous amount of space behind the rear seats. Even though we are only gone one night, here is what we took with us:
And, since the wife had a $100 Target gift card and some time to spare, there are now 4 or 5 bags of stuff as well.
Plus, we plan on stopping at The Container Store on the way home tomorrow - who knows how much we're gonna pick up there.
Pretty sure we'd have to put stuff in the back seat of the Countryman or fold the seats down to get it all to fit.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Yup. Want to go big. Already have an RX but it is too small. We want a SUV with a 3rd row.
I would love an Enclave but my wife won't touch a Buick.
If you son thinks Car Faxes are 100% accurate he is mistaken.
Nothing is 100% accurate, but it's nice to have something in addition to an appraiser's eye and touch that could reveal hidden damage to a vehicle.
Robbie
Check out the new 2014 mdx not as big inside as enclave but early reviews on this new mdx are; great ride, and handling, Fun to drive, with 2nd row seats sliding back and fourth with pwr button . With the mdx interior room within 1 to 2 inches of the buick you wont feel cheated in space.. MDX is a better resale vehicle. Might want to check out the Q60 nice size decent write up
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@breld... Just wanted to check in and see if you have had any luck moving the vert or 335.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
It's ironic, isn't it, that the most beautiful repair job done by a craftsman, still devalues a car? I wonder if all the restored Rembrandts have an Artfax or a home restored after a fire has a Housefax?
I agree. A lot of people think an accident forever ruins a car yet a quality shop can make a car just as nice as when it left the factory. Your examples are excellent!
I agree but some people take Car Faxes as gospel and they are far from it.
@MrShift
I completely agree. A good auto body person is like an artist.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
I'm checking out the Saturday Screamer ads as I always do & notice a decent amount of 2013 leftovers still being advertised: Dodge Durangos, Toyota Highlanders, Honda Accords (9), Civics (a dealer claims to have 40), Fits, CRVs (2), Nissan Rogues, a Hot Wheels Edition Camaro SS, Silverados, a Tahoe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
"It's ironic, isn't it, that the most beautiful repair job done by a craftsman, still devalues a car? I wonder if all the restored Rembrandts have an Artfax or a home restored after a fire has a Housefax?"
This is just one of the problems associated with CARFAX. Remember, CARFAX reports accompany cars and light trucks to the auction. Damage is damage is damage, no matter who did the repair or how the repairs were done.
The older the car, the less impact a repair has on it's value. The newer the car, the more negatively the value is affected. Even in cases where a truly magnificent refinishing job was done, it still affects value.
When I appraised a car that had a truly marvelous repair/refinish job, I deducted less from the final appraisal, but even that could have put me in hot water at the auction - all because a CARFAX report indicated damage.
In cases where I had a car that showed damage on a CARFAX but the refinishing and repairs were outstanding, I often took a chance by putting it on my lot rather than wholesale it because I had some influence on the eventual sale process to the prospective buyer - showing him where the damage was and how well done the repairs were accomplished. But I got burned many times and had to eventually wholesale those cars at a loss.
It's not the dealerships fault for devaluing the trade in value, it is the auctions that cause the brunt of the devaluation.
I agree that a truly magnificent refinishing job should not affect the value of a car as significantly as a poorly done repair. But the market forces dictate value.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
nyccarguy
Was just at Hudson toyota in NJ. Dealer had 2 rows of 2013 highlanders on lot. I think the saleman would of stripped down to his trousers to sell me one today. The weather here in the Northeast has hurt sales this month. I wasn't even negotiating price yet on a 2013 and sales guy was throwing a 3000 below invoice number at me. I took his card and told him when I call the internet mgr next week with my offer for a fax sale purchase i will let them know your the reason why i'm back here..
The Nissan dealership next store had 2013 rogues lines up to.. place was dead with business.
As i'm leaving here comes the snow again.
Think its time to head back to my place in Myrtle beach for a month of golf.. Enough snow!!!
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Why? What does she have against them? The Enclave is a really nice vehicle, if a bit big.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
abacomike,
People who are Fortunate enough not to get in a Auto accident fail to realize that car fax will hurt your chance at a good price. Good repair or not .. Thats just the way it is... your example about a damaged car on your lot is what ive been saying. Folks will walk away unless your giving the car away for a steal.. I have 2 guys here in NY who do expert bodywork. All my vehicles that were damaged over the years with my kids ending up costing me in the end cause of carfax report .. I'm not talking about a bumper repair either. Damage 6k, 8,/ 10 k.
The older the vehicle , the less impact a repair has on its value.
By 1993 Carfax had obtained vehicle title info for all 50 states and in 1996 there website was up and running..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
ab348
The Enclave is a nice SUV. If i had small ones i would consider buying it... Styling may be a question for sum..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I don't want to go through learning about another European brand(except possibly Fiat/Abarth), but I found this charmer at my BMW dealer group...
1997 SL320: 33,219 miles
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
If we took in a trade that showed an accident on Car Fax we would go over it with a fine tooth comb. If we could tell the damage had been minimal or that repairs had been done in a first class manner we would put it on our lot. We would put an X before the stock number and disclose that to a prospective buyer.
As with most things, some would be bothered and others wouldn't care after looking the car over.
Depending on the year, make and value of the car, a accident on Carfax can affect value quite a bit or not at all.
Even on cars with clean Car Faxes, if a customer would ask, " Has this car ever been in an accident" we would tell them that we had no idea and that there was a good possibility that it had been. People were sometimes taken aback by a statement but most appreciated our honesty.
If a car had a salvage title it killed the value and those were wholesaled.
We once took in a Camry that showed FOUR separate accidents! We put the car up in the air and inspected it closely. Even our Used Car Manager could find no sign that the car had ever been in a collision. Paint was perfect, no sign of ANYTHING amiss.
We took that one to the auction and someone got a nice used car.
@brian125
I'd imagine a 2013 Highlander with the 2014 redesign on the lots would be a screaming bargain. It's too small for our family of 5. IIRC, our Pilot is something like 12" or 13" longer which makes the 3rd row comfortable & still gives a decent amount of cargo space behind the 3rd row. Plus we are almost at the 3 year point of ownership (May) and owe less than $20K on it. I've also learned to live with its scratches, dings, and the fact that the interior doesn't get cleaned as much as it should. If we got a new car, I'd probably drive my wife insane about keeping it clean.
I know, I know, not good behavior for a Chronic Car Buyer's Anonymous member
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
Another value killer is a TMU - True Mileage Unknown car.
The odometer quits working so the next day the owner takes it to a dealer and gets it replaced with a new one. The mileage on the old one may or may not be readable if it's digital so a sticker go's on the door jamb stating the miles shown (if readable) on the broken odometer and the miles shown on the new one. Add those numbers together and that's the correct mileage, right?
Well, who knows if the owner didn't drive the car two years with a non working odometer?
Again, some prospective buyers will shy away, and others won't care.
@roadburner
If you are going for an SL, go big (500) or go home:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
A Newer car here in NY with a TMU..
Probably best to leave it running and just walk away hoping the right people take it..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Not necessarily. There are people who would look at the door sticker and not be bothered much.
A private seller could do better than a dealer because they could tell the story face to face with a prospective shopper. He could show service records showing dates and miles etc.
There is a saying in the car business..." There's a "butt" for every seat"
The pukey color that most people can't stand can be the ONLY color someone else will buy.
I've seen (and heard) it all.
"Another value killer is a TMU - True Mileage Unknown car."
Luckily, isell, these are very few and far between - in other words fairly rare. You find TMU cars to be usually older and therefore cars we used to wholesale. I would never put one of those on my lot.
Of course, then there are salvage titles, another vehicle we usually put a hundred or so into and then sold for parts.
I remember once about 9 years ago, this guy drives in with a fairly nice looking Porsche Carrera. One of my appraisers put $25,000 on the car as a trade value. I decided to go out and look at the car myself. He had not yet pulled a CARFAX on the vehicle. I noticed some concealed welds on both rocker panels and then I put the car up on a lift. It became obvious that this was a car made up of two cars.
I asked the customer if he had the title, and he said he did not - that he is in the process of getting a duplicate title. I pulled a CARFAX report on the car and it showed that the car was totaled by the insurance company and sold for salvage. Amazing what some people will do to defraud or conceal evidence of a salvage car.
I told him he had 2 minutes to get in his car and get off my property before I called the police. He was off my lot in 1 minute and scraped the bottom of his "CARS" (front was one car, back was another) on my front curb.
Car sales is a great way to make a living, but it is also very stressful, as evidenced by this occurrence.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
@stickguy I'm interested to hear your impressions of the Mazda3, that would be tops on my list if I was looking in this segment. But you never know until you drive it.
What a priceless story............A Porsche with a Chevy rear. That would of made a great picture..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Queue up Johnny Cash.
Had a landlady back in 2000 that had a Tercel that was cobbled together by her brother from two Tercels. Great cars but not known for safety and I always wondered what would have happened in a T-Bone. She loved her ride.
" but I found this charmer at my BMW dealer group... 1997 SL320: 33,219 miles - $13,500"
A 15+ year old car with only. 33,219 miles on it. Interesting. That's a car I would want to see a CARFAX on, service history documentation, and while I was at it, a serious odometer check. If the car was only driven 2,000 miles a year, you have to ask lots of questions for obvious reasons.
But, if everything checks out, I'd be interested! The 6 cylinder versions actually are as good, if not better, than the 8 cylinder versions in a car this old. It would make a great commuter car or toy for Daddy or Mommy.
The main problems with MB's like this are the availability of parts. In my MB Club, several guys have these and are gorgeous vehicles. They are not classics yet but the SL's of that era were quite nimble.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Love the picture of your Q50. You got the right color - great looking vehicle. How has it been treating you?
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I'm sure he would... Not only has the weather affected sales, but the Highlander is completely redesigned for 2014. I'm sure they need to get rid of the old models.
For you and those who are or used to be in the biz, I thought dealer franchise agreements prohibited them from selling salvage title/TMU cars on the same lot as a franchised brand. Is that correct?
I think TMU vehicles are less common now with electronic odometers. Often, the mileage isn't even stored in the instrument cluster.
I've never heard of such an agreement.
I knew of an S-2000 that had a Salvage Title. The car had been stolen and stripped of it's interior and the top was slit. It was an older model with 100,000 miles so it was totaled by the Insurance Co since the repairs exceeded it's value.
The owner decided to take the money offered by the Insurance Co and he kept the car.
He did this because someone had told him about a wrecked S-2000 that was being parted out. He bought the parts he needed and had a new top installed. The car looked like new afterwards.
He took a lot of photos of before and after so when the time comes, although the car still has a branded title he has a good story to tell.
" I thought dealer franchise agreements prohibited them from selling salvage title/TMU cars on the same lot as a franchised brand."
All I can tell you about this is that we never put a TMU or salvage titled vehicle on our lot - they were all wholesaled or sold for salvage. That was the policy of the dealer principal (owner). The policy may have something to do with our franchise agreement(s), but I was not privy to that possibility.
In retrospect, why would a dealership with integrity take a chance on selling a vehicle to a customer that was not properly titled, inspected and in proper working order? Fraud is a civil tort and has monetary penalties associated with disregarding state statutes protecting consumer rights and safety.
Yes, there are dealers who disregard laws and statutes, but a franchise could be jeopardized with a manufacturer for willful disregard of such laws and statutes, not to mention civil and criminal liability.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
As a matter of fact, I was just getting prepared to post that I sold the 'vert today.
I had an e-mail last week that read a little funny, so I ignored it. But last night the same person inquired again and left his phone number. English is his second language - hence the short written email that I wrongfully dismissed.
So, he shows up with his friend who wants to purchase the car (who speaks little English), they take the 330ci for a test drive, offer a reasonable price, and I accept. He has a small bag full of cash, so we head over to my nearby office, write up the Bill of Sale, sign the title over, and....one car down! 2 more to go.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
@corvette
It is actually easier than ever to roll mileage back in your electronic odometer. All it takes is the guy with the right computer know how & $350.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
"It is actually easier than ever to roll mileage back in your electronic odometer. All it takes is the guy with the right computer know how & $350."
Maybe so, NYC, but it would leave a tell-tale code in the drive showing the odometer was rolled back. So if a mechanic plugged in his data reader to determine code problems , this would show up .
Thus, if a dealer wanted to certify a car through the manufacturer, once they tap into the hard drive, it would "code"!
Have to be careful with that - there are severe monetary as well as criminal penalties for turning back mileage.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
@abacomike
I would NEVER even think of committing odometer fraud. I'm just saying that there are unscrupulous people out there & I agree that it is most likely easily detectable. I think people do it to their lease returns nowadays.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD, 2025 Toyota Camry SE AWD
"I would NEVER even think of committing odometer fraud. "
I thought that YOU would do something like that never even crossed my mind, Bradd. I was commenting about the fact that adjusting mileage through the computer leaves evidence of the change.
I am sure there are unscrupulous people out there that would jump at the chance - but they need to know of the consequences of their actions.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Oh, definitely, I was thinking of "legitimate" TMU, like an old mechanical odometer that breaks and stops counting the miles. I'd say a mechanical failure like that is pretty rare nowadays.
agreed that everyone needs to decide for themselves. but, I found it to be very nice. Great interior, upscale with lots of features and comfy seats. I also like the styling, but that certainly is totally subjective.
the other nice part is how well it drives. Sporty, great steering, firm but composed ride, etc. Basically the anti-Corolla.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Thanks! I wasn't really thrilled with the color choices Infiniti offers but I like this color more and more every day. The car is great, I love driving it and haven't had any issues with almost 2,500 miles. I think they have worked out some of the software bugs in the InTouch system since it was first released as I really don't have any issues.
I'd buy it again in a heartbeat. Well lease, but I wouldn't have regretted buying it.
It seems like a lot of car for the money and glad to hear the driving impressions match up to what I've heard. Tough choice for sure.