Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

stickguy

One thing often overlooked on a diesel is crazy resale. Yes it costs more but usually is worth at least that much more down the line when you sell it

kyfdx

I have to think that a Jetta diesel is particularly economical, if you drive 15K/yr, at least.. It's only slightly more expensive, given the option content, the fuel mileage is unreal, and the resale is much better..

I still have not heard one cogent explanation as to why the price of diesel is now greater than premium unleaded, when 5-7 years ago, it was cheaper than regular unleaded. If not for that change, we'd all be driving Jetta diesels.. ;-)

Michaell

@kyfdx@Edmunds said:
I have to think that a Jetta diesel is particularly economical, if you drive 15K/yr, at least.. It's only slightly more expensive, given the option content, the fuel mileage is unreal, and the resale is much better..

I still have not heard one cogent explanation as to why the price of diesel is now greater than premium unleaded, when 5-7 years ago, it was cheaper than regular unleaded. If not for that change, we'd all be driving Jetta diesels.. ;-)

Over in the JGC lease discussions, a poster asked about diesel vs. gas. $5K price delta between the two.

I figured it would take 10 years, give or take, to recoup that premium.

The price difference on the Jetta is much smaller, so may not take as long.

I've always figured that diesel was better if you did a lot of highway driving, and a hybrid if you did more in-town running around.

Mr_Shiftright

@kyfdx@Edmunds said:
I have to think that a Jetta diesel is particularly economical, if you drive 15K/yr, at least.. It's only slightly more expensive, given the option content, the fuel mileage is unreal, and the resale is much better..

I still have not heard one cogent explanation as to why the price of diesel is now greater than premium unleaded, when 5-7 years ago, it was cheaper than regular unleaded. If not for that change, we'd all be driving Jetta diesels.. ;-)

There's no one reason why diesel costs more, but among the factors are that diesel has a different seasonality than gasoline, due to the fact that it is used in home heating.

Also, since only 2% of US passenger cars use diesel, most is exported (a major export) and sent to places like India and China

Then, too, while gasoline demand is going down, diesel fuel demand is going up because of use in farming, public transport and trucking.

Last factor is how refineries make it and how expensive it would be to scale up.

breld

@stickguy said:
Nice review on the passat. I was trying to push my son toward the cheap lease on the Jetta SE but he is still Fixated on the more expensive Mazda.

Now you just need tickets. Saw in today's paper the average price on the secondary market was about 3k. Ouch. And now that weather forecast is good sales starting jumping.

That Jetta I test drove before moving up in size to the Passat was nice. I just can't say enough as to how impressed I am with the 1.8T. But sure can't go wrong with the new Mazda3.

Tickets at legitimate reseller websites are down in the $1,500's, and that's where they've bottomed out all week. Still a ton of money, but it's starting to get palatable. That average of $3k quoted in the paper takes into account the super high priced lower level and suites. I'm still hoping for another dip in prices today and tomorrow, but like you said, with the weather forecasting improving a bit, they might remain stable.

breld

Speaking of hybrids, a good friend of mine recently traded in his Toyota Tundra for a Prius. He never needed the truck from a functional standpoint, but liked the image. Well, he certainly went from one extreme to another. In both image and cost. As you can imagine, the difference in gas cost is incredible. It's probably worth the digs he gets from family and friends.

nyccarguy

I posted this yesterday on the "What would it take for you to buy a diesel car thread:"

RUG (87) - $3.759/gal (I paid this to pump 20 gal into the Pilot $3.559 thanks to stop n shop rewards)
PUG (93) - $4.099/gal (I paid this to fill up the BMW)
ULSD (Diesel) - $4.499/gal

@breld

Thanks for the review of the Passat 1.8T. I'm glad you are happy with it.

graphicguy

@Michaell@Edmunds said:
I've always figured that diesel was better if you did a lot of highway driving, and a hybrid if you did more in-town running around.

Local Costco reg is $2.97/gal. Costco doesn't sell diesel, but there's a station near them who does.....$3.85/gal for diesel....or nearly a 30% bump in diesel cost. Makes no sense.

Yes, gasoline demand is dropping, and will continue to drop. Not so sure about diesel demand, but don't necessarily seeing diesel cars as a popular option in this country, particularly with a price delta like there is between gas and diesel.

stever

We kick this around a lot over in What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

In addition to what Shifty said, "heavy" transport is a much bigger user of diesel than passenger cars (not just semis, but ships and barges and trains and airplanes). And the weight considerations of semis on road wear seems to be behind the higher fuel tax on diesel vs gasoline.

tifighter

@Stever@Edmunds said:
We kick this around a lot over in What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

But its so much calmer here...

stever

Diesels would never work for you guys - part of the bragging rights hinges on driving them for 300,000 miles.

nyccarguy

@Stever

So what exactly are you trying to say about our "condition?" Ha!

abacomike

@nyccarguy said:
I posted this yesterday on the "What would it take for you to buy a diesel car thread:"

You guys pay much more for gasoline and diesel than we do down here. I just filled up with Chevron Premium, $3.75.9 a gallon which is quite a good price for 93 Octane Chevron. Even though my car is starting to break in and I can attribute a little improvement in mpg's to that, when I switched to Chevron from Shell, I noticed a significant difference in mgs's. With Shell, I was getting 18.5 mpg combined highway and city and with Chevron, I'm getting 21.2. Highway mpg's with Shell was 27.5, with Chevron, 29.2 mpg.

That is significant, and cannot be attributed solely to the car starting to break in at 2000 miles. Yesterday, I was getting 30.1 mpg on a 50 miles non-stop trip up to Palm Beach. For a 402 hp V8, that is outstanding. I was getting 31.5 on the V6 E 350.

I believe the improved mileage is due to a combination of breaking in and the Chevron. I just hope the highway mpg's continue to hover right around 30 - that would be great.

nyccarguy

TDI vs. 1.8T

OK, so the price delta between a Jetta SE w/ Connectivity & a Jetta TDI (comparable models) is $2,910. The Jetta SE stickers for $22,635 (including destination) while the Jetta TDI Stickers for $25,545 (including destination). Diesel Fuel costs a lot more than Regular in CT where I live. The current $.75 is the biggest spread I've seen, but it always costs a good $.40 to $.50 more than regular. Even with the strong resale value, I don't see it working for me financially (and I drive 20K per year). I'm not a math wiz though. I guess a diesel with 100K miles on it would be worth more than a 1.8T with 100K miles on it.

Also take service costs into consideration. The TDI uses VW's DSG gearbox which requires and expensive service at what, 40K miles whereas the 1.8T uses a conventional 6 speed automatic. The 1.8 is direct injected and will need spark plugs every 50K while the diesel doesn't have spark plugs.

kyfdx

In all of those explanations, I still don't see anything that is different than 7 years ago, when the prices were flipped...

stever

@kyfdx@Edmunds said:
... 7 years ago, when the prices were flipped...

Must have been a regional thing - this blast from the past shows a .50 cent differential between regular and diesel, and diesel was still the high priced spread.

Seven years ago in here, Mark156 was shopping for a motorhome. Yep, a diesel.

oldfarmer50

@kyfdx@Edmunds said:

I still have not heard one cogent explanation as to why the price of diesel is now greater than premium unleaded, when 5-7 years ago, it was cheaper than regular unleaded. If not for that change, we'd all be driving Jetta diesels.. ;-)

Could it be the cost of refining ultra low sulfur fuel? I have no hard data on that but logic tells me that the more refined a fuel, the more expensive it becomes.

abacomike

@oldfarmer50 said: "Could it be the cost of refining ultra low sulfur fuel?"

That would account for some of the cost. Does "bio-diesel" cost more to produce? I would think so - and I believe there is a mandate to use more and more bio-diesel type fuels.

As for the reason Diesel powered vehicles usually cost several thousand dollars more than the same vehicle powered by a gasoline engine has to do with the increased cost of the manufacture of a Diesel engine. A Diesel engine has to be thicker and stronger because of the higher combustion temperatures and the significantly increased torque produced by the explosion of the fuel in the cylinders. From what I read, the explosions in the cylinders is more pronounced which requires a stronger and heavier engine compartment.

I think I got the major reasons correct. I am sure others will want to chime in here.

kyfdx

Okay... 7 years isn't as long ago as I thought it was....

87 - $1.559 - up 12 cents, up 24 from April 2

89 - $1.659 - up 12 cents, up 24 from April 2

93 - $1.739 - up 12 cents, up 22 from April 2

94 - $1.769 - up 11 cents, up 17 from April 2

diesel - $1.379 - unchanged, up 6 from April 2

That is from this post about 12 years ago...

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/comment/16714/#Comment_16714

Mr_Shiftright

I think I might be ready for another car. I was coming out of Costco to where I SWEAR I parked my car. Didn't see it. Finally, after searching, I thought "Well, it's stolen". Then I thought: "Hmmm...I wonder what the payoff will be" and a tiny thrill ran through my body...:)

kyfdx

If you hit me, hit me really, really hard....

fezo

Can't keep up with you guys. Right now I have a couple of trigger thumbs which does limit my typing a bit. Appointment on Monday for that. It's always something.

Yesterday there was an old guy idling in his TDI Jetta when I was heading into a store. Ended up talking to him a fair bit about it, starting off with "that sure doesn't sound like a diesel" and he said it was even quieter when new. He loves it. His wife not so much.

Where have I heard this before?

Mike - I don't get the bit with Shell vs Chevron. Doesn't make much difference to me because I can't tell you when the last time I saw a Chevron station in these parts. I think they left the mid-Atlantic altogether.

breld

I will add that I am happy with the 6-speed auto in the Passat, and this is coming from someone who is pretty sensitive to poorly shifting transmissions (i.e., our departed Veloster). I drove the TDI and 1.8T back to back when I was buying and was quite surprised at the smoothness and responsiveness to the traditional 6-speed compared to the DSG. But I do think that DSG takes some getting used to.

The sport mode also provides a noticeable increase in responsiveness.

breld

Well - I'm committed now!

I bought a pair of Super Bowl tickets earlier this afternoon, so there's no turning back.

For all the talk of weather, we're getting a semi-serious snowstorm tonight in Denver, and the forecast for NY/NJ is getting better and better!

brian125

Breld

Its better off you bought them before comming over here.. Buying in NY or around the stadium is what many folks with money will be looking to do. It will be a mad house.

My season tickets are 20 rows up on the 48 yard line Giants side.

Enjoy the game... You and your son will have great memories of this Superbowl. Your boy will never forget this specail day.. Sundays forecast

NYC weather Day..50
......................Night..38..

stever

@kyfdx, there's way too much history around here.

Jersey prices have always been "interesting", in a good way. Guess the nearby refineries help with the prices.

May have to talk to my sister about your MINI Shifty. She's been wanting one for umpteen years now and she could still drive her Forester as a backup. Heading for DC anytime soon?

(Hey Steve!)

jayrider

I've been driving around a rental Impala with 18k miles in Phoenix this week.cloth seas. Overall a very civilized ride -- decent seats as well. Went to the golf tourney, and sat for a few minutes in an E Class MB blue tech. My personal rating on sitting in these 2 plus my LaCrosse 1-10 with 10 the best. Impala 6 ---- Buick 8.5 -- MB -2. The seats were rock hard on the bottoms and super firm on the back. Felt like sitting on a park bench covered with a thin sheet of stiff vinyl over a 1/2 inch pad of foam rubber. My personal assessment -- if you love these seats, may God bless you.

stickguy

@breld, enjoy the trip. weather forecast here does seem to be continually improving. I may not be going to the SB, but at least I should finally get all the filthy cars washed off!

sounds like the only detail you have left to work out is getting back and forth to the stadium.

also, considering where your hotel is, if you want to pop in early to Manhattan you are nice and close. The secaucus station is a major hub, and you can hop on any # of trains (Path being the basic commuter one) and be in midtown in just a few minutes. Not far from where they have all the festivities set up around times square.

stever

@breld, your kiddo would kill you but in keeping with this discussion, you really should just hang on to the tickets for a few days, fly out to NYC and then flip 'em.

Take the profits and hit Fitzmall and drive home....

Sandman6472

The Tuscon looks great...he had a burgundy pin stripe which he added to the black and it makes a nice contrast. The door protectors look very nice and very stock actually...he ordered them from Hyundai after getting the correct color code so I am thrilled. They were working on a Mustang drop top and putting in new speakers and all, a brand named Hertz, and they will call me when they are done so I can stop over for a listen. From what they say, this new brand of speaker will "blow me away" and they said I will want to add them to mine. The amp helped but there's no depth in the sound...it doesn't "surround" me one bit and that's what I want. So looks like I might be springing for new speakers within the next couple of weeks if all goes according to plan.
I do like this vehicle more and more each day and am now glad that I didn't go with the Outlander Sport SE!

The Sandman

nyccarguy

@sandman_6472

Glad to know you are really happy with your Tuscon

ab348

@jayrider said:
I've been driving around a rental Impala with 18k miles in Phoenix this week.cloth seas. Overall a very civilized ride -- decent seats as well. Went to the golf tourney, and sat for a few minutes in an E Class MB blue tech. My personal rating on sitting in these 2 plus my LaCrosse 1-10 with 10 the best. Impala 6 ---- Buick 8.5 -- MB -2. The seats were rock hard on the bottoms and super firm on the back. Felt like sitting on a park bench covered with a thin sheet of stiff vinyl over a 1/2 inch pad of foam rubber. My personal assessment -- if you love these seats, may God bless you.

Funny thing - I went from an '09 Buick Lacrosse to a 2011 Regal, made in Germany. The one thing I liked better about the old Lacrosse were the seats. They might have been the best seats I ever experienced - soft initially but supportive. Just super-comfortable. The Regal seats sound like the Benz seats, supportive but extremely firm. They are not as comfortable on short trips but I do admit that on long drives they are great.

stickguy

son punch update:

still debating best approach, and decided to postpone a move until the end of February. He just started his new assignment last week, so that will give him another couple of paychecks in the bank to work with.

Plus, our weather has been so bad, you still can't safely park in the road. And all cars are disgustingly filthy, so who wants to bring a "new baby" into those conditions?

I also got calls from the Acura and VW sales people today, basically begging us to come in and they would do everything possible to get a deal to work out (could practically hear the shorts hitting the floor!). of course, he is still fixated on the Mazda, and they don't seem to be all that interested in pushing things.

so my guess, this time next month, there will be even bigger stocks of cars piled up on the lots, and I expect the desperation (and deals) to be just as good late in February as they are tomorrow. Plus don't they usually have big president's day blowout deals?

Oh, we also have the car show starting 2/8, so will be able to review all the options at one time. And we still have not had a chance to drive the Elantra GT.

so, the search continues!

stever

"January's weather complications mean that sales will likely be made up in February. Fortunately, says Edmunds.com, car shoppers will find a friendly buying environment to make their big purchases." Winter Weather Freezes January Auto Sales

"Some of the strongest deals available right now, including $1,500 off a 2013 Hyundai Elantra and 0% financing for 60 months on a 2014 Chrysler Town and Country minivan."

stickguy

@Stever@Edmunds said:

"Some of the strongest deals available right now, including $1,500 off a 2013 Hyundai Elantra and 0% financing for 60 months on a 2014 Chrysler Town and Country minivan."

speaking of Hyundai, I stopped at the dealer today just to browse (thought of talking some #s, but decided it made no sense without son present. That, and it was pushing 1:00 and I had not had lunch, and I should never talk money when hungry!) Anyway, they had a 2013 Elantra limited w/tech (loaded to gills) on the showroom floor. Black over dark gray (looked black) leather. Got to play with the navi, and it was pretty slick. pretty sure son would like it. And I bet they really wanted to move that puppy.

also had a nice 2013 Sonata SE 2.0T on the floor. Pretty well loaded (roof + navi package) though with cloth seats (leather bolsters at least). MSRP ~ 29.5 for 274 HP. I have to imagine there was a serious discount available on that unit.

tifighter

@breld said:
I will add that I am happy with the 6-speed auto in the Passat, and this is coming from someone who is pretty sensitive to poorly shifting transmissions (i.e., our departed Veloster). I drove the TDI and 1.8T back to back when I was buying and was quite surprised at the smoothness and responsiveness to the traditional 6-speed compared to the DSG. But I do think that DSG takes some getting used to.

I think I said it before, but test driving the TDI, I don't think the torque characteristics of the diesel match the DSG very well. I imagine the 1.8T with the 6AT is much smoother.

And BTW, you seem like a nice guy and all, Breld. But....go Seahawks.

qbrozen

Sweet looking E39 6-cyl sport with no reserve!

In other news, wife set out a letter on the table for me last night from our Nissan dealer telling us about their current pull ahead program. Hmmm... is she anxious? Thing is, I'm not sure why they are contacting us when we have 11 payments left. Letter says they will forgive "up to 6." That's still $1250 in the hole, which would be a pretty significant carryover on another 24-mo lease. I dunno. Gotta do more research. She did say "I have no idea what I would want from Nissan right now." And neither do I. I was thinking we could replace it with a hybrid, but the only one they have is a Pathfinder, which of course would not fit the bill. Their 3-yr Sentra SV deal COULD work out to somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 out of pocket and right around our current payment of $250. But a Sentra for 3 years? eeeehhhhh...

Mr_Shiftright

@Stever@Edmunds said:
kyfdx, there's way too much history around here.

Jersey prices have always been "interesting", in a good way. Guess the nearby refineries help with the prices.

May have to talk to my sister about your MINI Shifty. She's been wanting one for umpteen years now and she could still drive her Forester as a backup. Heading for DC anytime soon?

(Hey Steve!)

Has your sister ever driven a 1st Gen MINI? They are way fun, pretty fast, and very (as in VERY) stiff suspension on the S model, and lotsa torque steer. You sorta punch it and hold on while the supercharger shrieks in your ear. Not unlike driving a skateboard. But it does feel solid. It's not a cheap, tinny small car.

laurasdada

@stickguy said:
son punch update:

Plus, our weather has been so bad, you still can't safely park in the road. And all cars are disgustingly filthy, so who wants to bring a "new baby" into those conditions?

Yes, buying my new car on 12/31 got me a fabulous deal. But the "new baby" hasn't been shiny clean since 1/1...

brian125

Toyota

Has another Recall. 6 models with faulty heated seats that may ignite. Check to see if your model is listed.

Mr_Shiftright

I once considered writing an article called "They're Really Trying to Kill Us", that would include the most dangerous factory defects. Being set on fire while driving might qualify. I have a few other favorites but they're rather old, so not terribly relevant to us.

stickguy

@qbrozen said:
Sweet looking E39 6-cyl sport with no reserve!

>

That is nice looking. Low miles. About prefect. Wonder what it goes for?

And an actually spare tire. How quaint

stever

@MrShift, my sister flew out to Boise about 6 years ago to ski and we hit Fairly Reliable Bob's and she test drove a used one. Don't recall the year. She loved it. Said it reminded her of her MGB GT.

That said, she's a terrible driver and easily distracted. Lots and lots of wrecks over the decades, including the memorable smashing of my rental minivan I had parked in her driveway, after moving it to a spot of her choosing "out of the way".

Plus the first time it hiccupped, she'd be yelling at you and me.

suydam

Fortunately Toyotas recall is pre-emptive. No one has actually had seats on fire. Covers all 2013 and 2014 models I believe. Owners will be contacted. No cars on lots will be sold until they are fixed.

isellhondas

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I once considered writing an article called "They're Really Trying to Kill Us", that would

include the most dangerous factory defects. Being set on fire while driving might qualify. I have a few other favorites but they're rather old, so not terribly relevant to us.

I think the '65 Chevy motor mount nightmare would be near the top of that list!

isellhondas

The vast majority of recalls are nothing but a "Tempest in a Teapot".

A few years ago, some Accords got recalled because some clip "could" detach from a wiring harness and if this were to happen it "could possibly" result in a fire.

None of the many cars we inspected had a detached clip and the guys in the shop said that even if the clip were to come loose they could see no way it could have resulted in a fire.

We can thank our excess of lawyers for many of these recalls!

kyfdx

@qbrozen said:
Sweet looking E39 6-cyl sport with no reserve!

http://www.phillyauto.com/detail-446-2003-BMW-5-Series

That is on their website for $8500??!! Something has to be wrong with that car... Anyone familiar with that dealer? That would be a steal.. I think @breld is asking a reasonable $11,500 for his, with about 20K more miles...

breld

@stickguy said:
And an actually spare tire. How quaint

Nice 530i. 55k miles is crazy low. It'll be interesting to see what it ends up going for, since I'm in the process of trying to sell my (my MIL's) 530i.

The autocheck reflects no accidents, but something is definitely going on with that rear bumber.

stickguy

I have not heard of this outfit but there are plenty in Philly (and some parts of town) that I would avoid at all costs

breld

Thanks so much again for all the advice and travel tips for NY/NJ.

Getting quite excited!