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Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)
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Took the Volvo today to get inspected (no problem there) and for tire balance. Daughter has been complaining about some shaking at higher speeds. Definitely noticed it at 55-60. So stopped at tire place. Turns out per them that 2 wheels are bent. One not too bad so they could road force balance it. The other too warped to deal with so I authorized putting on a refurbed wheel.
Given how terrible the roads are around here (and my daughters inability to miss the big holes) surprised it only needs 1. At least the tire is OK.
No way I could dream of getting a sports model BMW with 40 series run flats on expensive rims. Would be replacing them with every oil change. If not sooner.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
A new job? It must be nice to be wanted.. ;-)
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After buying the wife's (now daughter's) '02 Lexus RX300, I began to think Toyota gave them away in boxes of cereal. Ubiquitous!!! Same with the wife's 535xi, a handsome car, but here, there and a bit everywhere.
Now, a Jag. That you don't see every day (insert joke about "you do if you hang around the repair shop.." here). I never tired of approaching my XK, nor driving it. Similar with the XF, I don't see it coming and going. I certainly hope that changes somewhat, Jag is producing some mighty nice cars...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The X-Type really hurt Jaguar's image. It was their "Cimarron" IMO. And the XF has been problem-plagued.
@stickguy
I do my best to navigate around pot holes, but sometimes its inevitable. My Michelins soften the blow a little on the smaller ones, but if I can't avoid on of the craters on the Cross Bronx, BANG! My car's 17" wheels and 45 series tires are the biggest size & smallest sidewalls I'd want for a daily driver. Sport Package? 18"? 19"? They look pretty, but no thank-you.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
@mrshift
Funny too, there are people out there that had those X-Types & loved them. We have a poster @OldBearCat who will swear by his X-Types.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
"I do my best to navigate around pot holes, but sometimes its inevitable. My Michelins soften the blow a little on the smaller ones, but if I can't avoid on of the craters on the Cross Bronx, BANG!"
I agree totally about not buying a car with optional wheels and tires if you drive in an area like NY, NJ, etc. When I lived in NY, tires were not super low profile and super wide and still I broke a few rims on streets dotted by potholes.
On my new car, I have the optional 19" AMG wheels and super-low profile summer tires that are also super-wide. There is no way I would have tires and rims like I have now if I lived in NY, NJ, etc. with all the potholes. If I ever hit a pothole with these tires and rims, I would need to replace a wheel and tire.
Luckily, we have great streets and roads down here and great interstates. We don't have weather extremes here and the only salt here in Florida is found on the dining room table.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"Similar with the XF, I don't see it coming and going. I certainly hope that changes somewhat, Jag is producing some mighty nice cars..."
I see lots of XF's and XJ's down here in South Florida. I even test drove an XF recently. I found the front seats a little cramped for me (6'2", 245 lbs). I drove the 6 cylinder super charged model. It handles quite well and is very luxurious inside.
I agree with your comment about quality - it has improved in the past 2-3 years. The jokes still prevail though about the bad name Jaguar acquired over the years for poorly built vehicles. It's going to take several more years for them to regain a more positive image. They are on the right path as evidenced by the great ratings they are starting to receive from the car critics.
You bought a great car - keep enjoying it as you have.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
yes but he is the lucky database of ONE.
When publications like Popular Mechanics run headlines like "10 Cars That Deserved to Die" with a picture of an X-Type as the lead, you know that you're in trouble as an owner.
In terms of reliability statistics, the evidence against the X Type is pretty damning---especially the early year models.
Q....I'd be curious as to what they do besides rotate the tires. One of the huge positives for owning an electric car....practically no maintenance.
laurasdada....my sister has what has to be a 15 year old Jag convertible (not certain the nomenclature). She also had an "S" type. She swears by Jags.
Saw and article stating that since TATA bought Jag, sales have gone up over 20%. I don't follow them that closely, so I don't know if it's because they have had new models come out recently. About a year + ago, I was in England (Manchester) for business and drove a rented Jag diesel. Not my cup of tea, but it was a pretty nice car. I just don't see many around Cincinnati.
Jag/Land Rover has become Fiat's Jeep.
Good analogy, Steve!
We don't have weather extremes here and the only salt here in Florida is found on the dining room table.
What do you call "hurricanes" if not weather extremes?
And salt in the salt air breeze coming off that Gulf Stream warmed ocean there on the east side is salt. Friend's Honda in Charleston rusted like a rabbit (Well maybe it rusted like a VW Rabbit did, as well) from driving in the salty atmosphere long ago.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You folks in Florida have the advantage of not having frost heave the pavement which leads to those potholes. Here in NY it was just revealed in a comptroller's report that about 80% of taxes collected for highway and bridge repair are diverted to "other" uses so our roads are a mess.
As to salt, once when I was waxing about the idea of shopping for rust free cars in Florida, an Edmunds host reminded me that salt spray on the coast could cause problems.
That didn't stop me from buying an 18 yo apparently rust free former Florida vehicle this fall.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
TESLA OF BOCA RATON OPENS ITS DOORS! ALSO CADILLAC HAS A NEW ALL-ELECTRIC VEHICLE.
TESLA:
We were taking our morning walk at the Boca Town Center this morning and noticed they opened the Tesla Store inside the mall. We went in and they had 2 cars on display - their standard 4 door sedan and behind that they had a special edition 4 door sport sedan with special wheels, tires, body moldings, interior, etc.
Outside in the parking lot, they had 2 additional cars that were used for demonstration drives. They had a red one and black one inside and a blue and white one outside.
When I sat inside the standard car (the red one in the showroom store) I found it to be tight for someone my size. I was not comfortable in the car, even with the seat way back. The dashboard screen(s) are huge - 12 inches long and 8 inches wide - truly humongous. You can monitor and adjust just about everything in the car from that touch screen.
The range on a full charge is about 340 miles. You can charge using a 240 or 110 volt socket, however the 110 takes about 24 hours to charge the vehicle while the 240 takes about 10 hours. The interior was well done - but the dash, as I mentioned, is spectacular.
I test drove the car - outstanding performance from an electric vehicle - pulled away from the line like a V8. Almost no noise in the car.
CADILLAC:
They had a display of the new all-electric Cadillac coupe. Very good looking vehicle. Just much too small for me or my Dad. It's the same size as their CTS coupe - just all electric. Price was $82,000, quite a bit less than the Tesla.
But there was one very outstanding feature that Cadillac had over Tesla - there is an 8 gallon gasoline tank in the rear of the car that fuels an internal generator when your charge is low. It provides an additional 320 miles of charge in emergencies, but that's still 40 mpg converted to electric via internal generator - which is excellent. The technician who was there at the display explained that if you wanted, you could just run the car on 8 gallons of gasoline - but it is merely a charger, not a gasoline engine.
Gorgeous car, though. They only make it in a coupe right now, but they are working on a sedan. The batteries are guaranteed for 8 years and the provide a 4 year new car warranty.
They did not have any demos to drive, so I cannot tell you how it handled, etc.
SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION:
I really liked the Tesla - but if you live in a Condo like I do and have not access to a 240 volt socket, the Tesla is not the car for you - too long for a full charge. The Cadillac on the other hand can be charged via 240, 110 or internal gasoline powered generator.
The Cadillac is way too small for a 6'2" guy who weighs 240 lbs, and the Tesla also a bit tight, but drivable for a big guy so long as you are not driving 200 miles or more in a day. For $100,000, the car is a bit pricy, but supposedly their service is top notch - they warrant the car for a longer period of time and replace batteries if there is any problem for any reason.
If I had to choose between the two cars only, I would probably go with the Tesla.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"What do you call "hurricanes" if not weather extremes? And salt in the salt air breeze coming off that Gulf Stream warmed ocean there on the east side is salt."
By weather extremes, I was referencing ice/snow/sleet/frigid winters and hot/humid summers. It's the temperature extremes and the ice and cold causing road surfaces to buckle and crumble. We don't experience those extremes that affect road surfaces. Hurricanes (once every 5-10 years) do not affect road surfaces nor do the create potholes.
As for salt air, only cars parked right along the coastlines experience salt air, however only 5% of the south Florida population live on the coast line. Most people who live here live more than several miles from the coast. People on the west coast of Florida usually live closer to the coastline than those of us in southeastern Florida because of the more frequent tropical storms we experience on the east side of the peninsula.
So there is not a lot of salt air where most of us live, if any. Only those that live right on the ocean front experience that phenomenon.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
So how much do those Teslas sell for?
I'll bet they all sell for MSRP and "invoice buyers" get shown the door quickly!
I'm seeing them every day now around here. Beautiful cars but I would have no use for one.
Isell, you know that invoice isn't really invoice. Auto marketers and dealerships make what they need by selling at "invoice". Then of course, you have trade-ins to factor into the equation. People may have a lot of opinions about folks who sell cars but one thing for sure is that they aren't stupid.
You are preaching to the choir. I spent nearly 14 years in the business.
Not all cars have to be "cheap sold" and I would expect Teslas are being sold at or near MSRP.
Selling prices are ALWAYS based on MARKET conditions!
I think they are also supposed to print out a battery health report based upon the car's charge/discharge patterns.
You are correct in your statement that Tesla's sell for MSRP - $100,000 + tax and tags. No negotiating whatsoever - one price.
As far as "invoice isn't invoice" is a correct statement, which was made by a poster subsequent to your post isell. If invoice was true invoice, then my CLS 550 which invoiced for $76, 209 is what I would have paid for the car. But because of my fleet discounts and hold back, I paid $71,000++. Incentives and holdback can account for a significant amount of money, as we who were in the car business know so well.
Remember Saturn, isell? They had one price too, and look where they ended up. Not just because of pricing, but because of poorly made vehicles that were just not ready for prime time.
What amazes me is how many people continue to buy and lease Toyota cars and trucks when Toyota Motor Company has recalled more cars than all the other manufacturers combined. That is a true mystery to me. How could someone walk into a Toyota dealership and buy a car or truck or SUV, knowing that information? I have no answer to this question, whatsoever!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
That's because Toyota's worst car is often better than some other automaker's best car. Or if you don't buy that, then we can use the Cadillac metaphor---it takes 10 years to drive a car company into the dirt and 20 years to dig it out again.
Don't forget the bonus money too. That under-invoice sale to you may lead to $20,000 on the dealer's bottom line for making the numbers.
Surprising tips for car shopping in Internet age (USA Today)
Well, there isn't ALWAYS "trunk money" on new cars at least not with Honda yet some people think this is always the case. Some think there is "hidden" money on every car sold and that is just not true. Incentives come and go without notice.
A lousy 2% holdback will slightly make a dent on the tremendous overhead that must be paid every month. Stores HAVE to make money or they will fail and a lot do.
As far as Toyota, I would buy one in an instant. Having been in the car business you should know that the vast majority of recalls amount to nothing urgent. I don't buy the Unintended acceleration so called incidents for a minute.
Still, they do hurt business. They scare people away. No car company is immune to these but Toyota seems to have suffered the most. They still build excellent cars.
I would recommend a Toyota to any friend without hesitation.
Between my family and I we have had countless Toyota's, all have been good cars. I just rode in a 2007 Camry with 241,000 on the clock. I was stunned how well it rode and it was on the original struts.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
big day tomorrow. Heading to the (philly) car show! Will be at least me and my son (the active shopper, and the chronic shopper). I think my wife has already decided she has better ways to spend half the day. My daughter wants to go, but entirely possible that at 9:00 tomorrow (since she has some friends sleeping over tonight) she will decide that she can also live without going.
She would mostly be torturing me anyway, since I am not buying a car now for her to steal, and she doesn't really care what happens after she leaves for college!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Toyotas used to have a good reputation. Recent models have much cost-cutting in evidence and quality lapses are obvious. I would treat them the same as GM, Ford, Nissan, etc. Nothing special.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Worst vehicle I ever owned was a Toyota bought new.....and that includes all sorts of $1k beaters. I'd like to think they've improved since mine but I wouldn't risk my money on it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You may have had a bad one, but statistically they are the most reliable vehicles out there. Not fun to drive but few repairs and they last forever. What's the stat that's always quoted: over 90% of Toyota made in the last 20 years are still on the road.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
With a few exceptions, Toyota makes cars for people who hate cars. Kind of the same niche Saturn used to fill, but on a larger scale. (Saturn attracted people who not only hated cars, but also hated the car buying process.) The reviews of the all new Corolla describe it as adequate. The new RAV4 has a cheap looking interior and you get a crummy plastic steering wheel unless you opt for an up level model. I can't stand the Camry's styling or its ugly instrument cluster. Any of them will probably go 150,000 miles+ without any major problems. That said, the new Highlander looks kind of nice.
Rotate the tires is all I paid for on the Leaf. Could have done that myself, of course, but there was also a recall to reprogram the computer, which is what they needed the time for. Once I got there, they told me less than 1 hour, though.
I did have some work to do, so I sat down to take care of that first, which left me far less time than anticipated to walk around.
Walked the new car stock before heading to the showroom. I only saw 1 Versa Note there, but it was an SV. Turns out the SV equipment is far far less than I would have thought. PW, PL, AC, and bluetooth. That's about it. The bluetooth isn't even for audio; it is phone only. The stereo is actually damned sparse and sad. It doesn't even have auto climate control.
Went into the showroom and they had an S on the floor. Lower grade cloth on the seats, which also lacked the height adjustment on the SV, and of course no bluetooth. I explained to the saleswoman why I was there. She offered to work up the numbers first (on the SV). Ok, no problem.
A little while later, she returned with her first offer. I was actually quite surprised. Absorbing our 11 payments and lease end fees, $235/mo, 36 mos, 12k/yr, $1450 DAS. I told her I'm willing to keep exactly the same payment of $250/mo, but only want to pay first month up front. She came back with $250/mo but with first month and DMV up front. So we were within ~$285 (IIRC the DMV fees). I figured that was close enough to warrant a test drive as I'm sure they would have met my number.
She was busy, so she assigned some kid to go out with me. He pulled up that one SV I saw out there. So this was my first time getting in the "upscale" model. The seat did not adjust much, neither did the steering wheel, but I found it pretty comfy. Better than the Leaf. I'd say, overall, the car was adequate. Fairly quiet while cruising, I liked how it handled, and it accelerated at an acceptable enough pace. Additionally, during my traffic light racing, it read out an average of 33 mpg, which tells me we'd probably have no problem getting in the high 30s in normal driving.
On the downside, it does feel kinda cheap and flimsy, and the engine is LOUD when accelerating. In the 15 min drive, it got pretty damned annoying from light to light. Even moderate acceleration where the CVT settles the engine at 4k rpms, it is irritating to hear.
I got a call during the drive that my family was having a slight emergency (nothing serious in the end), so I got back and quickly informed the salesperson that I didn't like it all that much and would have to think about it. No pressure, she let me go. Picked up my Leaf waiting for me, paid the $19.99 for tire rotation, and went on my way.
We'll start looking at some other options out there. Prius C is on my list, and the wife mentioned visiting the Ford store.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Any used car dealer knows that when you sell a used Toyota, that's probably the last you'll ever hear from the customer until they come in to buy the next one. You show me the car dealer who will turn down a clean Toyota trade!
Making cars for people who hate cars can be a very shrewd business method. Volvo got away with it for decades, and Prius still thrives on the principle.
What didn't work for some automakers was when people only hated THEIR cars!
I'm not sure it's people who "hate" cars -- unless you got a lemon. I think it's rather people who don't see cars as an extension of their identities but as a means to get somewhere. And Toyotas do that with a minimum of fuss.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
a transportation module.
Down here in "Retirement Central", I used to see loads of them (Toyotas) in our development. Lately, I see lots of Hyundai's, especially the Sonata, in those same parking spaces. I have never owned a Toyota, but I have owned several (4) Lexus vehicles. Except for the last one I owned (2013 GS350), Lexus vehicles are excellent. But that 2013 GS350 was awful - lots of problems which I felt were not appropriately dealt with my the Lexus Dealership or Lexus Zone.
As for Toyota making cars for people who hate cars, you could be correct - all they want is basic transportation to and from the store and for their Saturday treks to the Early Bird Specials at the local Italian Restaurants. The new Corolla seems fairly nice looking compared to previous model years, but the Camry seems like a box on wheels.
We have a local Toyota Dealership that might as well set up a satellite showroom here in my condo development since all you see it that dealership's name on the back of every Toyota in here. Probably due to the fact that the dealership is only a mile or so from here.
I guess Hyundai could also be a car that people who hate cars purchase/lease, especially since I see more Hyundai's down here now than Toyotas.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Just because they (Toyotas, Hyundai's etc.) are not your cup-of-tea and not driver's cars, per se, and/or cars that are not selling for $100k, I think characterizing them "for people who hate cars" is misguided.
I liked my Tercel so well, it's my avatar.
Very true. Our lot (huge used car lot) sells everything from $2000 beaters to $50k used european luxury vehicles. The stuff that we see back most often with issues are Land Rovers, Audis, Benzes, and BMW's, especially X5's.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
A friend of mine owns a dealership and also a large used car operation and some makes are just banned from his lot, period. Burned too many times. I think the list gets adds and subtracts as models change, but I do recall cars like VW Jettas were on his all time crapola list. Maybe not so much now? Don't know.
We sell a few Jettas here and there. They seem not as bad as they used to be but I'd still take a Japanese car over a Jetta if I wanted something economical.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
european luxury vehicles. The stuff that we see back most often with issues are Land Rovers, Audis, Benzes, and BMW's, especially X5's.
The store where I worked would wholesale the beaters and the majority of their used cars were over 10,000. Years ago they quit selling Land Rovers they are so troublesome that the warranty companies won't sell warranties for them. The guy told me that even after raising the price for a LR warranty to ridiculous levels, they STILL got burned and lost money.
My old store won't sell used Audis after REALLY getting burned too many times. No Jaguars or anything exotic. Once in a great while if they took in an especially nice VW that was still under warranty they would take a chance but not often.
Mercedes and BMW's were like a hot potato. They were usually wholesaled unless they were exceptional.
Jeeps were another make they were afraid of and approached with caution.
They just didn't want unhappy customers and the troubles weren't worth the risks.
Used BMWs and Benz can work out if you really go over them with a fine tooth comb, and buy 'em at 60,000 miles or less. A store can make money on those.
Yeah, used Audis and Jeeps, bad news usually. Jaguar X-Type, no way. LRs, kiss of death. Newer Beetles and newer VWs seem okay now, if they aren't miled up.
Miled up MINIS and Saabs, just wholesale 'em.
I forgot to add Saabs to that list but for some perverse reason I kinda like them.
I've never owned a Saab and maybe that's why they appeal to me.
Ok, car show update time. But more important, after another trip to the apple store to debug my new phone, it is now (seemingly) fully operational. Amazing how upsetting it was to not have normal texting abilities!
back to cars. Place was packed, normal for a weekend, especially mid-afternoon (1ish) when we headed out. We made it to every display, save for a couple (GMC? pass) and saw the key stuff.
Highlights? The new Mustang (an interesting shade of slate green) was a knockout. Compared to the current model next to it, it looked so much better and more stylish. it was behind ropes, so could not see the interior, but thumbs up to the exterior.
Loved the Volvo for the seats. Sat in a new V60, and the seats (same ones at the S60) just fit me real well. Not a huge cargo area, more of a big hatchback, but very sharp and would do great for a couple.
My son knocked a few things off his consideration list, and pretty much has it down to the mazda 3i (his favorite still), the Jetta SE and the Hyundai GT. The Hyundai we need to go drive still this week, then he just needs to pick something and spend some money.
My daughter favored the hyundai elantra and Sonata. She chooses by "the butt". Don't ask. But she wants me to get the Sonata turbo I saw in the showroom that I could probably get a killer deal on. I will say, the upper level Elantras are a nice package, especially with the discounts and rebates these days. Too bad the GT tends to be much rarer, and more $$ real-world.
Sadly, the TLX concept was not there. Did sit in the new style Mini hatchback. Nicer overall, but nothing that really made me want to fork over $.
and sat in the CLA. Disappointment. Tight up front for me, and the backseat was a joke. I had to bend my neck to even sit back there, and was staring at pillars and headliner. Interesting dash at least. I liked the C class (especially the red 2-door!) much better. The 4 door was much roomier, and you could actually see out of it.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Anyway, now for the good stuff. What I liked (other than the Mustang which I doubt I ever get). The new A3 was very nice package. Firm seats of course, but well done, and roomy enough. Can't wait to go drive one. Too bad they got rid of the hatch style though.
I discovered that I can actually fit in a Miata now, and even get my legs straight. Still stare right into the windshield header, so a lot of ducking down. But the combo of seat height, legroom, and adjustable wheel means I can fit OK, and it probably would not be painful to drive. Just painful to get in and out!
Oh yeah, the new cherokee in person was yucky. But the new Chrysler 200 was a vast, vast improvement. Too bad I could not sit in it. But it looked sharp.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That leaves my "next car". I found it so have something to focus on. Of all things, the upcoming Golf. They had what they tagged the Golf concept, which I think was just a Euro model. But it was open for playing. Wow. I loved it. Style, interior. Everything. It even had the 1.8T engine I want, a power seat, and a way oversized moonroof. Great seats, lots of room. Everything I want, in a perfect sized package that should get excellent mileage. I really can't wait for them to come out (I assume some time this summer?). I am guessing it is going to drive quite a bit like the A3, which of course is not a bad thing.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Did you see the new Highlander? Looked pretty sharp on the Super Bowl commercial....
Oh, just took the dog out. Another 2" of the white stuff, ugh!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
"The new Volkswagen Golf will hit North American roads from mid-year as it continues its global success story." (autoblog.com)
Production has started in Puebla MX. Seems like most news is about the Golf R, which may not get here until winter of 2015. Good looking hatch, going by the photos.
(And no, don't know where the other 2 doors went; the R will supposedly only be available here as a 4 door hatch. Ah, roadandtrack.com has pics of the 4 door - er, 5 door).
If I did, it made no impression. Really did not pay attention to the big trucks in the Toyota area. I don't like it based on the commercials, and I detested the outgoing model.
and yeah, more snow. Just what I wanted.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.