Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

woodyww

my house will be paid off next year

Owning a house "free & clear" is great. At least, it sure feels good. I have Yuppie friends with huge incomes & huge Mansions, & somehow, they're never quite making ends meet(?). Usually, right after they complain about not making ends meet, they start telling me about their kid's $80 violin lessons, or how their 18 y.o. daughter has to have TWO $500 dresses for the Prom, um, 2 proms.

My place is a Dump, but it's paid for. And I paid cash for my (now) 6 y.o. bmw. Of course, in the long run, we're all Dead anyway.....

jaserb

Real time traffic is an optional feature of the Nuvi 360. You have to buy an antenna and subscribe to the traffic service.

-Jason

graphicguy

Of course, in the long run, we're all Dead anyway.....

Woody...funny but, oh so true.....

Interestingly enough, we must hang out with the same people. Neighbors don't have any issues with "flipping" their homes going bigger, better, more expensive. Of course, now they're faced with tuition bills, "little Janey needs braces" bills, johnny moved back home with his pregnant girl friend bills, etc. They're stuck with a big mortgage payment but can't downsize....no equity to begin with, anyway.

Bought my first home at 22. Kept it for 5 years until my son came along. Built the house I'm in currently on a 15 year note. That note is paid off next year.

Have to say, I've been lucky, though. Once my son graduates college in two years and moves out, I don't know that I'll stay in the house. It's way too big for just one person....actually it's way too big for just the two of us. I want to buy something smaller, but as much as my home has appreciated, I don't know that I can find something smaller, with all the amenities I want, without going back into debt again. Don't want to do that, either.

Have paid for my cars (unless there were financing options too good to pass up) with cash.

Like my dearly depated Father used to say...."if you can't afford to pay cash for it....you certainly can't afford to finance it". He paid cash for the one and only house he ever owned (and I grew up in). Did the same with his cars. Never owned a credit card in his life.

akangl

Everytime I heare that Jeep commercial about Alaska and they mention the SAT radio I always figured that was bogus. No way regular sat radio is going to work that far north.

I wonder if Land Rovers SAT NAV will work in Alaska... I know it works in Iceland and most of Scandnavia.

I dunno, suppose I could ask at the Land Rover dealership in Anchorage........but that would require me setting foot on a car lot, lol. Hubby keeps telling me to stay away from the car lots I'm not getting a new car anytime in the next few years (that's right, he said YEARS!).

I haven't heard of any manufacturer's nav working up here, but who knows, there could be a couple that do.

It would be nice if we could get SAT radio and Nav up here, I guess Onstar doesn't work very well either, course its all cell phone based except for the GPS part of it. Cell coverage up here is barely functional at best.

zodiac2004

It would be nice if we could get SAT radio and Nav up here

Why on earth would you need Nav up there.
Don't you know everything there is already.

akangl

Why on earth would you need Nav up there.
Don't you know everything there is already.

In anchorage at times it would be nice, but yes, we do pretty much know where everything is up here. We do travel in the lower 48, so it would be nice to have in the vehicle for those occations. Then again, I'm pretty good at reading a map.

guss

I kind of like using a map to find a place. You can put your finger down and it's almost as if you put yourself into the map. I'm even pretty good at folding them back up.

I can see the day coming though when map reading will be a lost skill, like using a sextant for navigation.

woodyww

My Grandparents & Great Aunts & Uncles were Midwesterners, all born around 1900, mainly farmers. They thought it was almost a sin to have any kind of debt.

And I remember an extremely wealthy older couple in my expensive town here on the East Coast who had a Mercedes 240D that they kept for 20 years, or maybe until they died (get that, not even a more expensive mercedes). It seems to be that that used to be normal, for people with big incomes, or wealth, to have a nice car & house, but to have a Lot More stashed away in savings or stocks & bonds.

In my town, I feel almost Poor because I don't have a 1.5 mil. McMansion.....(yes I'm thinking of moving, not because I want a McMansion, but to an area where a Piece of ah......"Junk" house doesn't cost $400K)......

woodyww

I love maps. People collect antique maps & globes, & I could see doing that, except some of them cost $$thousands or 10's of $$thousands, not all of course. You can pretty much trace the History of Western Civ. with historical maps.

I still want NAV in my next car tho......

andre1969

(yes I'm thinking of moving, not because I want a McMansion, but to an area where a Piece of ah......"Junk" house doesn't cost $400K)

There's a McMansion orchard that sprouted just up the street from me a few years back. I'm actually waiting for the market to drop out, and see what it does to all those people who financed 100%+ the closing costs with a deceptively low ARM.

Heck, if I had so much money that I could never burn through it all in a lifetime, I'd buy up those McMansions and bulldoze them all, and let the place return to its natural state. As it is, they spoil my view. Hey, can I sue for that? :shades:

My grandparents, God forbid, borrowed money to buy the house that Grandma still lives in, but I think they paid it off in about 5 years. I don't think they EVER financed a car. I don't think my Mom did either, until she bought her 1986 Monte Carlo. And by that time they were offering something like 2.9% for 4 years, so that was probably what prompted her to do it.

corvette

There are a lot of interesting theories (and books) on behavioral economics.

There is a very high proportion of full-size, domestic pickups and SUVs among the handful of very wealthy people I know, and they tend to keep them 4-6 years, sometimes longer. Most of them are not really into cars (or anything mechanical).

jlawrence01

There's a McMansion orchard that sprouted just up the street from me a few years back

What is a McMansion? Based on some of the things that I have seen that phrase tagged to, I am beginning to believe that it is any house larger than the speakers!

Last week, a co-worker used that phrase on a 2200 sqft 3 bedroom house ....

akangl

Beater magnet! Looks like we may be picking up a 1997 Ford F-250 x-cab XLT Powerstroke diesel 4x4 longbed with 117k on it tomorrow. Its not in great shape body/interior wise, but it runs really good. Only real downside to it is its got a reconstruct title......long story on that one, but at least we know why. The price........$2000, seems fair all things considered. I trust my brother's opinion on it, he's driven it quite a bit and says its fine.

Just wish we could have found it a couple months ago. All well, if we buy it our problem of how to get the skidder started in the winter will be solved without messing with the new truck. (Our other Dodge had a hot start set up on it)

british_rover

Since we were talking about sat nav working up in alaska. I just read an article on the ice roads used in the northern territory of canada. On the trip using a Range Rover Sport and they did use the off road side of the Sat Nav to find the hunting lodge they were staying at. Land Rover's nav system can work completly off-road using latitude and longitude cordinates and off-road waypoints.

anonymousposts

Sounds like you want an Accord or maybe even a new Camry or Sonata.

corvette

I've always used McMansion to refer to a large, excessively modern-looking house with a premium price tag--what constitutes a premium price tag differs depending on the market, but where I live most of the offerings above $300k would qualify.

Often found in subdivisions where most of the houses look almost exactly alike. A house with a McMansion floorplan generally looks much better (and I might not call it a McMansion) when it's sitting in the middle of a field on a small farm rather than on the smallest suburban lot possible. Large houses with small yards are convenient for maintenance purposes but they're often squeezed so close together that the sense of proportion is way out of whack.

Linguistically, the "Mc" comes from McDonald's, and is used as a derogatory modifier to signify the commoditization and devaluation of what was once a unique item.

dewaltdakota

When in doubt, grab a "Wiki" (they even have pictures of McMansions)!

graphicguy

A guy that lives two houses down from me is worse than I am as far as CCBA. He had an '05 Corvette and a '98 Cobra. Neither one can brave an OH winter....although, we really only get one, maybe two snowfalls/season. What's he do? He buys a Mercedes ML, Chrysler Pacifica clone to add to his stable.

His wife has traded him in for a newer, more energetic model. He's been living in an "extended stay" hotel type place and is seriously considering bankruptcy. Not his fault, per se. Come to find out, neither he, nor his soon to be ex, can afford the cars or the house. It's a mess.

We're pretty much middle class around here. Some want to pretend we're not, but we are. 3,500 sq ft homes on 3/4 acre...some with inground pools. New development when I had my home built 14 years ago. Prices ranged from $225K-$290K, at the time. Probably range from $325K-$400K now.

Put these same homes anywhere in CA, and you're looking at $1.5M-$2M. Even today, $200K-$250K buys an awful lot of house in the 'burbs of Cincinnati compared to a lot of other places.

I almost bought the Cobra from my neighbor, but he's in dire straights. Told him he'd get more for it if he advertised it in the newspaper. I did loan him money (I know, I'll never see it again). He's a sad relic of what he was just 1 year ago.

andre1969

I pretty much use the term to describe a house that's oversized for its lot and neighborhood, and is overly flashy or imposing looking. This neighborhood that went in on the filled in swamp and farm up the street has houses that start at around 2500 square feet, but easily top 4000. And they just seem over-styled, with their brick, stone, and stucco facades, columns, extra eaves and arches in the roofs, etc. And speaking of roofs, the roofs just seem too over-sized for the house, kind of puffing it up and making it look bigger and more impressive than it really is.

In some ways they kind of make me think of the false fronts that they used to build on structures in the old west, to try and make them look bigger, more impressive, and "big-city" like than they really were.

To put it in perspective with the rest of the neighborhood, most of the houses on my street range from 1000-2000 square feet. Before that community went in, the two biggest houses were old farmhouses built in the late 1800's. One's about 2600 square feet, but it sits on 7 acres. The other's about 2800-2900 square feet, and it sits on 2 acres. Neither one is particularly tall or imposing, and they have tall, mature trees growing up around them to tone down their presence a bit so the houses kind of blend in with their lots rather than overpower them.

Nowadays, in my area at least, it seems like all new single family homes are "McMansions". Land is too expensive for them to use it on the lowly rambler, split level, split foyer, or even on more sprawling one-story designs that have a large footprint. So anything single-family is usually a mammoth two-story affair these days. The smaller single family homes have prety much been replaced by townhouses and condos.

In my area, the starting price for a McMansion is usually in the $600K range. But even a typical new townhouse will put you out for about $400K.

I remember when the McMansion orchard up the street went in. The base models started at $264K. The model home, as it was equipped, 4000+ square feet with two staircases and big enough to get lost in for a few minutes at least, would have gone for about $500K back then. I doubt if any of them are on more than a 10,000 square foot lot. Nowadays, even a half-acre building lot would set you back $300K or more, and they have zoning regs in place to prevent you from building a house on less than 1/2 acre. The only way that development massed muster with its sub 1/4 acre lots was because they got the county to factor the drainage pond and the park across the street and even part of the road's right of way into the total, and then just divided all that by the number of houses they built.

If my family hadn't been in this area for ages, before the prices shot up, I wouldn't be able to afford to live here!

jlawrence01

I am familiar with the Cincinnati market. Somehow, I am less concerned with people who pay $175-200 for a 2500 sqft house where the schools are decent.

The ones that blow my mind are the people paying $400+ to live in simple frame houses in Mt. Lookout / Hyde Park with the city schools.

I still say that 90% of the time I hear "McMansions" used, it is done with a tinge of envy.

Getting back to cars, there is not a week that I don't get a call from my brother in Cincinnati telling me about a co-worker massively upside down and in trouble with a car loan. The problem is that the the few that I am interested in are upside down big time and the people want me to "take over payments." Yeah, right.

Being the ultimate "Anti-CCBA" person who is TRYING to catch the fever, the big discussion this weekend is about cars. Do I keep the 1996 Olds Ciera with 117k miles OR do I buy the 2004 Chevy Impala with 60k off lease for $7k? Right now, I am leaning to "three more years".

nippononly

Which engine does the Impala have? Is it a 3.4L former rental, or someone's private car with the 3.8? I would buy the 3.8, skip the former rental.

Also, the Ciera - that was a fairly old school car, right? If it's running well, why trade? *ducks as mortar fire arrives from hardcore CCBA members*

:-)

fintail

McMansions are the big SUVs of the housing world. Often of questionable design and engineering, carrying a pretense of luxury while being cheaply built, usually an architectural mess, pretentious and attractive to gold diggers and the lowest common denominator, requiring too much energy (physical and literal) to maintain, and will sooner or later look silly and stupid. Their only plus is that they usually have 3 car garages. Otherwise...dreck.

graphicguy

jlawrence.....that Hyde Park area is a whole different animal, as you well know. Mostly "old" money there. People that WANT to be part of that crowd pay dearly to get there. Most of those folks don't care about the city schools either. It's more prestigious to send their young'uns to the private school du 'jour. I know more people moving out of that zip code than are moving in, though because of finances.

Same goes for the likes of Glendale. Have quite a few friends that are trying to get me to move their for my downsize quest. Looked at a 2BR, 1 bath, postage stamp lot....$200K. Thanks, but no thanks. That address isn't worth that much to me. Currently, I'm in West Chester. Lots of McMansion streets around me. Don't think the houses are poorly built. All the ones around me seem to be fine. The new ones are pouring the same concrete foundations...framing with the same wood. Maybe the wall coverings are a little different, as well as the appliances, architecturally a little different (not much) but mostly similar to what I built nearly 15 years ago.

Wouldn't mind Fairfield or Liberty. Could sell my place (4 BR, 4 bath, 2 story w/pool) for ~$350K. Build for $250K (3BR, 2 bath ranch) and bank the difference.

Bought my first house in Wyoming. Great schools. Great neighborhood. Still sent my son to St. X for HS, though. Glendale looked down their noses at us.

Back to the CCBA. You've taken the Ciera this far. May as well go until the wheels are nubs. There will always be Impalas around. OR......you could join us in the CCBA.

andre1969

for keeping the Ciera. As long as it's still running well at least, and doesn't look like too much of a clunker yet.

I guess in favor of the Impala though, it's a bigger, safer car. I can't remember now...did the Ciera ever get airbags or did they use those annoying door-mounted seatbelts right up to the end?

british_rover

I think they got airbags at the very, very end of their life but I don't remember.

Now going back off topic. My wife and I were renting an apartment only about 5 minutes from where I work. When we bought our house the only things in our price range, 175k-200k, in the same area were tiny, little 2 BR 1 BA places on less then a quarter acre. We bought a 4 BR 2 BA 1912 colonial on about a half acre, with a two car garage full basement and full attic a couple of towns and one county over for right in the middle of our price range.

That same house in our old town would have been 500K or more.

jlawrence01

The Ciera has a 4 cyl engine, little rust, and a single airbag. I like that as it is the ONLY car that the nephews can ride in the front seat.

The Impala is an LS with a 6-cyl 3.4 engine.

As for the safety, to me, there is not much difference between the two vehicles.

The seatbelts are the non-irritating type.

The only thing wrong with the Ciera is that the fuel injector on the second cylinder tends to get clogged. It is more of an irritant that I notice when the car sits more than 2-3 days.. Also, the front seat is wearing out which could be resolved with a drive to the junkyard.

kyfdx

More for your money on the good side of the river....

andre1969

The Impala is an LS with a 6-cyl 3.4 engine. Are you sure it's an LS then? or that it's a 3.4? I thought the LS only came with the 3.8?

I had forgotten that they were still putting 4-cylinder engines in the Ciera by that time. Does it get decent fuel economy? Did the Ciera still have the nice, plush interior by that time or did they find ways to cheapen it? That's one thing I liked about some of those Cieras and A-body Centurys...they just seemed more plush inside than the W-bodies that followed.

I think if it were me I'd be tempted to just drive the Ciera until it was totally dead, even though at those prices, the used Impala wouldn't really put you out too much.

nippononly

the LS most certainly was available with the 3.4 in 2004, as I drove one for a week. HIGHLY uninspiring. And this means the one under consideration here has good odds of being a rental at some point in its life? I vote to stick with the Ciera. You have the advantage of being distinctive - Impalas are everywhere, but who has an Olds?

As long as that drive to the junkyard is to get replacement seats, and not to leave the car! ;-)

graphicguy

ky...no bout adoubt that....I've thought about the other side of the river several times. You know how it goes....once you're on one side, you tend to stay there, no matter which side it's on. There's some nice property....good prices over there, though.

My favorite drives for day trips are down there. Let's you really open a good car up, too.

graphicguy

Me thinks you're talking yourself out of that Ciera. Look at it this way, it's going to cost you a couple hundred for a new fuel injector...and another couple hundred to have the seats reupholstered. You've already got $400 to play with if you dump it now.....LOL!

Don't like the sound of the Impala with that engine, though.

Hmmmmm.....let's see....what would be a good car to replace the Ciera......how's about a Mercury Marauder? They don't make them anymore AND, who knows, as long as you keep your cars, it may become a collector's item.

woodyww

This may sound very Opportunistic, but, "somebody's" gonna buy this guy's house & cars, probably at Distress Prices. Or else the bank will take them over. If you don't buy his cars or house, somebody will.....I wouldn't depend on someone paying more than you, & I wouldn't not buy the car based on that supposition. He probably just wants to "get out", at almost any price. (I know the type, he may sell the car for less than you were gonna pay to the first person who shows up).

BTW, Cincinnati is supposed to be a great town! but then you know that.

michaellno

Do you prefer Skyline or Gold Star? A Gold Star was briefly open here in Denver, but it never really took hold here.

On an automotive note, the L300 clicked over 50,000 miles earlier this week. Got to get it in for a tranny service. The VUE has 25,000 miles on it and the ION has, I believe, less than 2000 miles on it in the 2 1/2 months that the daughter has had it.

sandman46

Own the old homestead free & clear since 1996 and always pay our Mastercard down to "0" each month. Saving for retirement as best we can with 3 young'ens in college. We live within our means and drive 2 fuel efficient economy cars. Our house fits us nicely, about 100 square feet under air, the smallest model in the development. This weekend in St. Louis has been a bit $ as the wife is going nuts in Bed Bath & Beyond, Linens & Things and Walmart. And the other 3 suite mates parents are going crzier still with all their buying.
Very glad I bought my Civic 2 months ago, cause if I had waited much longer, I would've waited till next year.
I must say though, after driving this Corolla the past 2 days, am very happy I got the Civic. A much better overall car.

The Sandman

andre1969

On an automotive note, the L300 clicked over 50,000 miles earlier this week. Got to get it in for a tranny service.

Ugh, that reminds me, I've gotta get my Intrepid in for its tranny service. I like to do them every 30,000 miles, and that car's at around 121,000 now.

kyfdx

Gold Star is the better of those two..

However, the real congnoscenti of Cincinnati style chili go for Camp Washington Chili... or Dixie..

graphicguy

woody...the situation is really a mess. She thinks he's hiding money. He says all she wants ALL the money....not an equitable amount.

End result will be everything both of them own will be sold at distressed prices.

Neighbors are all hovering like vultures to take advantage of this, which leaves me with a bad taste. These people are (I guess, were) our friends.

But, you're right....someone will buy all of their "stuff" for nowhere near their true value. I just really don't want to be involved in the "bone picking".

Don't have any issues with anyone else being oportunistic though.

Truth told, the guy, who I lent money to, has been making noises that he'll make me one "hell of a deal" on the '98 Cobra convertible as payment on the loan. It's a nice car....near as can be to perfect. Terry (the missing) over at RWTIV thread pegged it between $14k-$15K a few months ago. The guy owes me about 1/2 that amount. But, I need another car like I need a hole in my head right now. Still, I could resell it and come out ahead on the loan.

graphicguy

Camp Washington would be my choice.....

corvette

My parents' house would probably qualify--it has lots of offsets and the fake upstairs (and a truss roof--to actually finish the attic would require completely reengineering the roof). On the upside, it appears to be well built, as it survived a tornado with only very minor structural damage.

Personally, I could live in a house that is based on a 5-6 car garage with living space upstairs, but it would be hard to make it "fit in" with any nearby homes.

akangl

We brought home the 97 F-250 powerstroke diesel today. Very pleasant truck, has some issues, but overall its not too bad for the $$$. Pretty hard to find a decent, good running diesel for $2000 these days, especially a 4x4.

Didn't really *need* the truck but it was too good of a deal to pass up and it'll make a good plow truck/backwoods beater. We've been clearing our driveway (a little over a tenth of a mile)in the winter with a snowblower for the past 10 years, just never bothered to look for a truck to make into a plow truck.

I truely hope we don't add another vehicle to the yard anytime soon, we are out of parking room!

mark156

Akangl, you haven't mentioned the Sebring in a while, do you still have it? And, when you say "FOUR", are you including the Travel Trailer?

You have:
(2) 2006 Dodge Trucks
(1) 1997 Sebring
(1) 1997 Ford Truck
(1) 2005 Travel Trailer

==== 5 vehicles plus numerous trailers and a skidder!

:P Mark156

akangl

Akangl, you haven't mentioned the Sebring in a while, do you still have it? And, when you say "FOUR", are you including the Travel Trailer?

Nope, didn't include it......oh and its a 2004 that we bought in 2005.

We actually have in our yard:

(2) 2006 Dodge Rams
(1) 1997 Sebring (yes, its still here, getting ready to retire for the winter)
(1) 1997 Ford F-250
(1) 2004 Fleetwood Wilderness Yukon TT
(1) Dump trailer
(1) old pickup bed trailer
(1) Car Hauler trailer

I think that's it......oh and one 15 year old very onery pony.

We are out of parking space.......gonna have to convert the pony's pasture at this rate!! :surprise:

andre1969

Personally, I could live in a house that is based on a 5-6 car garage with living space upstairs, but it would be hard to make it "fit in" with any nearby homes.

If the county had let me build the garage I originally wanted to build, it would've been big enough to live in. Originally I was going to do a 30x40 garage with a second story, and a gambrel barn roof. The county shot me down because it was over the height restriction (at the time, 15 feet for any secondary buildings) and bigger than the house. The house is really about 1500 square feet, but the dept of assessments has it down at 1106. They consider it a 1 1/2 story even though the upstairs dormers make about 90% of the upstairs full-height. So they wouldn't let me go over 1106 square feet for the garage. For some reason they didn't count the garage loft as square footage.

So, I went back and had the company design a 24x40 garage, standard roof. When I went back down to the county office to get the permit, they told me they changed the ruling on heights for secondary buildings. It was now 20 feet. They took that measurement at the "midpoint", which was half way up the side of the roof on cape cods, or where the flatter plane and the steeper plane joined on gambrel style buildings. I dunno where they'd take the measurement on a "real" 2-story building though. But by that time I was fed up and didn't want to have the company draw up a THIRD building! :mad:

I'm thinking about building a carport addition on the back of it though, maybe 12x40 or 15x40, or somewhere in between. That would give me enough room to get two more cars out of the brunt of the weather.

woodyww

Well, I'd be pretty concerned if someone owed me $7K, with their life in a mess. Getting the '98 Cobra convertible "could be" the only way you'll ever see the $7K again.....but then I don't know if he owes $$ on it, etc.

Unless you can afford to write off $7000 or so......

kyfdx

So...

How long between buying the two new Dodges and this latest addition? A month? :surprise:

akangl

So...

How long between buying the two new Dodges and this latest addition? A month?

It was actually about 6 weeks. We didn't set out looking for a truck, the offer I made on it was more in a joking manner, I never thought the guy would accept it. When he did though we couldn't pass it up, if we get sick of it there's a bunch of guys that will buy it, lol.

Diesels 4x4's are pretty easy to sell up here, this one will be no different once we fix the front diff (already have the parts, just have to find the time).

I guess I just need to stay away from the junkyard.......not the car lots, lol.

bumpy

You sound like the folks who moved into the house down the road from me. They brought with them the following:

an early-90s E-class
a late-90s ML
a 70s-ish 280SL
a 2000ish F250
an enclosed car trailer
two flatbed trailers
three tractors
an oversized diesel-powered riding mower
a backhoe
2 or three other pieces of smallish construction equipment

They swapped the white E-class for a similar-vintage dark gray 400E recently, and they've had a single-axle Kodiak with a dump body parked over there for the last week. You'd think they were highway contractors or something. Nope, they're apparently retired Beltway Bandits from Maryland. I think they're just this side of insane.

corvette

Drove about 4 hours today. Just got back from a friend's wedding reception. Got to drive the car fairly hard on part of the trip, and I have been rewarded with a tachometer that will not go lower than 1400 rpm, even when the car is shut off (and, the reading is about 1400 rpm too high in each gear). At first, I thought I was in fourth instead of sixth gear, but soon figured out that it was just reading 3900 rpm in sixth gear at 70 MPH.

Just got the aircon and radio fixed after nearly twenty days of repair, and darned if something else doesn't break. :lemon:

akangl

Well......our trailers all have to work in order to stay. We keep quite busy with our firewood business and that's what we use three of the trailers for. Thankfully we have no neighbors, 5 secluded acres in the middle of nowhere surrounded by state land. Works for me!

Vehicles.......well, I figure 4 is a pretty good number although I have had thoughts of cutting the Sebring loose, but my son would strangle me if I did. That's *his* car!

mark156

Akangl, and when do you have time to go the Opera? Or a play, or anything else entertaining? A woman who even knows that they have parts for a front differential needs a night out on the town!!! Tell hubby I said so! :P

Keep on working hard, it will pay off one day!

Your CCBA friend, Mark156