Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

nyccarguy

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

corvette

Disagree with the article's statement that a new car buyer keeps a car 11 years on average. The average age of a car on the road is 11.4 years but that doesn't mean the original owner keeps the car an average of 11 years. I don't think that's even plausible. 

Frontier, Cruze, Charger, Sonic, and Regal all probably have high fleet sales, so if their numbers include fleet sales, it makes sense. 

stever

Just read that article after @Karen_CM emailed me the link. Have a friend with a Cruze that she'd like to dump; wants something roomier. The C Class is a bit of a shock and you have to wonder what they are trading them for.

(I think I may the one skewing the stats, although two of my "recent" cars were dumped in year ten).

au1994

nyccarguy said:

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

Interesting. The C Class surprises me and the X1. Perhaps as they are 'entry' luxury cars people either have higher expectations that are not met or they are stretching to get to the marque and realize they cannot afford it?

suydam

Maybe not this group. I tend to keep mine between 10-12 years. 

carnaught

The only thing I've kept for over 10 years is the "Mrs.".

nyccarguy

au1994 said:

nyccarguy said:

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

Interesting. The C Class surprises me and the X1. Perhaps as they are 'entry' luxury cars people either have higher expectations that are not met or they are stretching to get to the marque and realize they cannot afford it?

I wonder if a lot of the C-Class & X1s are being used as service loaners by dealers. They punch them as sold, collect the rebates & trunk money, then sell them after 8 - 12 months of service.

nyccarguy

Michaell said:

Had a little free time yesterday so I decided to start crunching some numbers on the potential candidates for my next lease.

As previously noted, I'm looking for something small and AWD, and I'm lucky enough (as a host) to have access to the lease numbers from all the manufacturers. I used Edmunds to build an ideal configuration of the cars in question, and using the MSRP and TMV values, I modeled a 36 month, 15,000 miles per year lease payment, and added tax (7.9% where I live).

All I can say is ... ouch. I may need to rethink my budget on this whole thing. Most everything I looked at had a payment well north of $300/mo, other than the Impreza.

For giggles and grins, I modeled a payment on the GTI as well, and discovered that it was less than some of the more plebian choices I've been kicking around (Trax & Renegade, for example).

I also "built" an A3 Quattro, but that's over $400/mo ...

Of course, the numbers can change greatly between now and November 2016, but it gives me a starting point. I'll still test drive most of the cars I'm considering, but that won't happen until next summer.

Oh, and let me wish any Canadian folks who read this an early Happy Victoria's Day.

That's where you start getting into trouble. I know we all say to "look at the total cost of the lease" and "the selling price is very important," but you also have to look at your payment as the bottom line. Obviously you wouldn't want to use any of these as a pizza car, but look at cars like the Infiniti Q50, Q40, Lexus GS 350 AWD, & MB E350 4Matic and tell me you can't make an argument for stretching out the budget. The residuals are high, they are giving money away cheap, & the trunks are loaded with money.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

Michaell said:

Had a little free time yesterday so I decided to start crunching some numbers on the potential candidates for my next lease.

As previously noted, I'm looking for something small and AWD, and I'm lucky enough (as a host) to have access to the lease numbers from all the manufacturers. I used Edmunds to build an ideal configuration of the cars in question, and using the MSRP and TMV values, I modeled a 36 month, 15,000 miles per year lease payment, and added tax (7.9% where I live).

All I can say is ... ouch. I may need to rethink my budget on this whole thing. Most everything I looked at had a payment well north of $300/mo, other than the Impreza.

For giggles and grins, I modeled a payment on the GTI as well, and discovered that it was less than some of the more plebian choices I've been kicking around (Trax & Renegade, for example).

I also "built" an A3 Quattro, but that's over $400/mo ...

Of course, the numbers can change greatly between now and November 2016, but it gives me a starting point. I'll still test drive most of the cars I'm considering, but that won't happen until next summer.

Oh, and let me wish any Canadian folks who read this an early Happy Victoria's Day.

That's where you start getting into trouble. I know we all say to "look at the total cost of the lease" and "the selling price is very important," but you also have to look at your payment as the bottom line. Obviously you wouldn't want to use any of these as a pizza car, but look at cars like the Infiniti Q50, Q40, Lexus GS 350 AWD, & MB E350 4Matic and tell me you can't make an argument for stretching out the budget. The residuals are high, they are giving money away cheap, & the trunks are loaded with money.

Why not? I've seen MB's and BMW's used for delivery in the past. Not sure if it will help me get decent tips if I roll up in a car nicer than what the customer is driving.

Oh, one other thing - the Q40 is being discontinued after the 2015 model year, I've heard.

If I had to make a decision today, it would probably be for the Subaru CrossTrek. But, I've got 18 months left to decide what to do next.

Mr_Shiftright

Nothing "entry level" about a C class if you option them up. You can break $60K on one.

The article suggests that maybe some people find German tech confusing and fussy. So what's new?

au1994 said:

nyccarguy said:

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

Interesting. The C Class surprises me and the X1. Perhaps as they are 'entry' luxury cars people either have higher expectations that are not met or they are stretching to get to the marque and realize they cannot afford it?

au1994

Mr_Shiftright said:

Nothing "entry level" about a C class if you option them up. You can break $60K on one.

The article suggests that maybe some people find German tech confusing and fussy. So what's new?

au1994 said:

nyccarguy said:

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

Interesting. The C Class surprises me and the X1. Perhaps as they are 'entry' luxury cars people either have higher expectations that are not met or they are stretching to get to the marque and realize they cannot afford it?

Agree but technically before the release of the CLA the C Class was the baby Benz. That being said I have never seen one on the lot for anything around the claimed 36k starting price. Around here they are typically in the mid 40's with a few over 50. That mid 40 must be the sweet spot as I see a ton of them on the road.

breld

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

nyccarguy

@Michaell - I've actually been thinking about what to do once cash flow frees up in a couple of years. I can't see us ever getting rid of the Pilot. It fits our family of 5 perfectly and only has 62K miles on it after 4 years (its birthday is 5/19/2015). It is mechanically sound and still cleans up nicely. I know my wife doesn't love it. It will be paid off next year. After a few years of zero Pilot payments and the loan on the Legacy is paid down, maybe I can lease her a nice E-Class or Lexus GS for a few years then buy it out at the end and use it as my daily driver. Keep the Legacy around as an extra car.

stever

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

Get the feeling that the seller knows what he has and has time to wait for the right buyer. Saving on shipping would be a big plus (not to mention getting the lowdown from the original owner, who has the mechanical records, etc.).

Looks awfully darn good from here even with a bit of a price premium.

corvette

Driver's seat looks like it has some wear. Pretty common on that vintage of BMW. Let is know how it looks and drives in person.  

nyccarguy

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

I think if this one checks out, the price premium might be worth it.

au1994

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

Wow! That is loaded to the gills. Color doesn't blow my skirt up either but if it checks out and you can knock a little off the price, its a great addition to the fleet.

Would love to know what this stickered for when new.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

@Michaell - I've actually been thinking about what to do once cash flow frees up in a couple of years. I can't see us ever getting rid of the Pilot. It fits our family of 5 perfectly and only has 62K miles on it after 4 years (its birthday is 5/19/2015). It is mechanically sound and still cleans up nicely. I know my wife doesn't love it. It will be paid off next year. After a few years of zero Pilot payments and the loan on the Legacy is paid down, maybe I can lease her a nice E-Class or Lexus GS for a few years then buy it out at the end and use it as my daily driver. Keep the Legacy around as an extra car.

That sounds good - today. But, as your kids get older your needs will change. 

I'm hoping we keep the outback for 10+ years and I can rotate every three with relatively inexpensive leases. 

Of of course that could change with cash flow and how long I keep delivering. 

roadburner

So the '02 goes to its new home today and then this pops up. Dead ringer-except for the transmission-to the beloved car I owned from 1990-1992. Must resist...

kyfdx

au1994 said:

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

Wow! That is loaded to the gills. Color doesn't blow my skirt up either but if it checks out and you can knock a little off the price, its a great addition to the fleet.

Would love to know what this stickered for when new.

When we leased our non-ZHP convertible in 2005, the ZHPs with automatic transmission had an MSRP of about $54K..

With no auto, but NAV and PDC... probably $55K-$56K for that one. (ours MSRPed for $49K).

kyfdx

roadburner said:

So the '02 goes to its new home today and then this pops up. Dead ringer-except for the transmission-to the beloved car I owned from 1990-1992. Must resist...

78K miles!!!??

The slushbox would kill it for me..

fintail

For the C, probably a big factor is a lot of them were loaners as the model run ran out (2014 is the old style), and maybe some immediately upgrading to the new model when they saw the massive change.

nyccarguy said:

Interesting read. Definitely has to do with our group here:

http://247wallst.com/autos/2015/05/15/7-cars-buyers-cannot-wait-to-trade-in/

breld

kyfdx said:

au1994 said:

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

Wow! That is loaded to the gills. Color doesn't blow my skirt up either but if it checks out and you can knock a little off the price, its a great addition to the fleet.

Would love to know what this stickered for when new.

When we leased our non-ZHP convertible in 2005, the ZHPs with automatic transmission had an MSRP of about $54K..

With no auto, but NAV and PDC... probably $55K-$56K for that one. (ours MSRPed for $49K).

Well, the car checked out just as described, if not better. Very nice (and affluent I gather, based on their gated community), elderly couple who obviously were very gentle to the car for 75k miles.

A direct contrast to the blue one @nyccarguy checked out for me in CT - brand new tires all around, all service records were available and current, including a recent check-up and maintenance last month, no issues with the seat leather, the steering wheel honestly looked brand new. I asked if it had been re-wrapped, and he said no. Some scrapes on the bottom side of the front bumper, which are expected and almost unavoidable from my own personal experience.

It's really the type of thing us car enthusiasts search for - a special car gently used by one elderly owner.

But, alas, that doesn't come without a premium. I was thinking somewhere in the $13k's, but once I saw it, and considering the brand new tires, I offered $14,000. He said his bottom line was $15,000. And we left it there, at least for now.

He is including a second set of winter wheels/tires - not really needing those, I could actually sell those and recoup some of the money.

We'll see...

kyfdx

@breld If you like it, $15K won't break the bank. That's pretty much what I figured he would want. A one-owner enthusiast owned vehicle is hard to find.

Yes, it's not as pretty as the other one, but silver/black is still a nice combo. Won't have to worry about $1500 to ship it, or any "gotchas" when it shows up.

By contrast, my car had 2 owners in the first 40K miles, before I bought it.

Michaell

@breld - put the shoe on the other foot ... you've had specialty BMW's for sale privately .... would you accept an offer such as the one you made, knowing how well you took care of it?

I think the owner knows exactly what he has, and knows what its worth, and is willing to wait for the right buyer.

My only question is why he listed something this nice on CL?

au1994

breld said:

kyfdx said:

au1994 said:

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

Wow! That is loaded to the gills. Color doesn't blow my skirt up either but if it checks out and you can knock a little off the price, its a great addition to the fleet.

Would love to know what this stickered for when new.

When we leased our non-ZHP convertible in 2005, the ZHPs with automatic transmission had an MSRP of about $54K..

With no auto, but NAV and PDC... probably $55K-$56K for that one. (ours MSRPed for $49K).

Well, the car checked out just as described, if not better. Very nice (and affluent I gather, based on their gated community), elderly couple who obviously were very gentle to the car for 75k miles.

A direct contrast to the blue one @nyccarguy checked out for me in CT - brand new tires all around, all service records were available and current, including a recent check-up and maintenance last month, no issues with the seat leather, the steering wheel honestly looked brand new. I asked if it had been re-wrapped, and he said no. Some scrapes on the bottom side of the front bumper, which are expected and almost unavoidable from my own personal experience.

It's really the type of thing us car enthusiasts search for - a special car gently used by one elderly owner.

But, alas, that doesn't come without a premium. I was thinking somewhere in the $13k's, but once I saw it, and considering the brand new tires, I offered $14,000. He said his bottom line was $15,000. And we left it there, at least for now.

He is including a second set of winter wheels/tires - not really needing those, I could actually sell those and recoup some of the money.

We'll see...

For the record that's about what I paid for mine last year with near identical miles on the clock, I think mine was at 78k.

breld

kyfdx said:

@breld If you like it, $15K won't break the bank. That's pretty much what I figured he would want. A one-owner enthusiast owned vehicle is hard to find.

Yes, it's not as pretty as the other one, but silver/black is still a nice combo. Won't have to worry about $1500 to ship it, or any "gotchas" when it shows up.

By contrast, my car had 2 owners in the first 40K miles, before I bought it.

You're exactly right - wife and I did talk this through regarding the CT Blue one. We offered $12,500, but add on shipping, tires, steering wheel and other issues, and more likely than not we'd be over $15k.

And it's not like they even considered the offer.

breld

Michaell said:

@breld - put the shoe on the other foot ... you've had specialty BMW's for sale privately .... would you accept an offer such as the one you made, knowing how well you took care of it?

I think the owner knows exactly what he has, and knows what its worth, and is willing to wait for the right buyer.

My only question is why he listed something this nice on CL?

Well, yes, of course. I mentioned to my wife on the way back from the test drive that this seller is simply doing exactly what I do every time I sell a "special" BMW, where I more or less throw out Kelly Blue Book and make the claim that "this isn't a kbb car - kbb doesn't take into account the rarity."

But how dare he take the same approach!

breld

au1994 said:

breld said:

kyfdx said:

au1994 said:

breld said:

Well, this popped up just yesterday on the local craigslist.

ZHP 'vert

I'm going to check it out over lunch today. Not the most exciting color, but from the pictures and speaking with the owner, it's in outstanding shape - bet it has matching tires!

He's the original owner and purchased it through European delivery. Has every option, including nav and parking sensors (pretty rare on these). He's an older gentlemen who is looking to replace it with something easier to get in and out of.

Asking price is high, so not sure if we could actually make a deal. But not having to pay for shipping certainly helps.

Wow! That is loaded to the gills. Color doesn't blow my skirt up either but if it checks out and you can knock a little off the price, its a great addition to the fleet.

Would love to know what this stickered for when new.

When we leased our non-ZHP convertible in 2005, the ZHPs with automatic transmission had an MSRP of about $54K..

With no auto, but NAV and PDC... probably $55K-$56K for that one. (ours MSRPed for $49K).

Well, the car checked out just as described, if not better. Very nice (and affluent I gather, based on their gated community), elderly couple who obviously were very gentle to the car for 75k miles.

A direct contrast to the blue one @nyccarguy checked out for me in CT - brand new tires all around, all service records were available and current, including a recent check-up and maintenance last month, no issues with the seat leather, the steering wheel honestly looked brand new. I asked if it had been re-wrapped, and he said no. Some scrapes on the bottom side of the front bumper, which are expected and almost unavoidable from my own personal experience.

It's really the type of thing us car enthusiasts search for - a special car gently used by one elderly owner.

But, alas, that doesn't come without a premium. I was thinking somewhere in the $13k's, but once I saw it, and considering the brand new tires, I offered $14,000. He said his bottom line was $15,000. And we left it there, at least for now.

He is including a second set of winter wheels/tires - not really needing those, I could actually sell those and recoup some of the money.

We'll see...

For the record that's about what I paid for mine last year with near identical miles on the clock, I think mine was at 78k.

Well, that certainly helps in getting comfortable that we wouldn't be grossly overpaying for the car.

That's the thing - we're not so concerned about the total amount; just that we're paying a fair price for what we're getting.

And by the way, if this was Monaco Blue over Natural Brown, like yours, I don't think I'd hesitate to pay the $15k.

kyfdx

This guy thinks your price is cheap!

http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?id=4833&form_display=51#.VVZdx_lViko

breld

kyfdx said:

This guy thinks your price is cheap!

http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?id=4833&form_display=51#.VVZdx_lViko

I often browse their inventory - beautiful cars, and I appreciate what they do as far as offering clean cars with all the maintenance and other issues addressed. But man, do you pay for it!

Michaell

@breld - so the only question is - am I gonna see it on Tuesday when we meet up for lunch?

stever

The ad looked so good I'm half tempted to buy it myself, lol.

What's the etiquette around here anyway? Suppose someone posts a great car and another regular here decides they want it too. I guess we could offer to have @Kirstie_H pick a name out of a hat. Good thing this one's not a hatch/wagon.

graphicguy

kyfdx said:

This guy thinks your price is cheap!

http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?id=4833&form_display=51#.VVZdx_lViko

Funny....I just met the nice young lady who does all their title work last night. She says 95% of their sales come from outside the area and they have to shop the cars. She said they do practically NO walk in business and that anyone who comes in to buy is usually just a tire kicker. So, they don't waste much time on them.

And yes....she said that any BMW dealership within a 3 state area will give you a better deal.

She mentioned their market is almost strictly the specialized BMW, the collector BMW or the hard to find BMW (or Porsche, or Audi or Mini).

Nice young lady, and very frank in how they do business.

breld

Michaell said:

@breld - so the only question is - am I gonna see it on Tuesday when we meet up for lunch?

I'd give it a decent chance. 

breld

stever said:

The ad looked so good I'm half tempted to buy it myself, lol. What's the etiquette around here anyway? Suppose someone posts a great car and another regular here decides they want it too. I guess we could offer to have @Kirstie_H pick a name out of a hat. Good thing this one's not a hatch/wagon.

Wait a minute - are you the seller's cousin or something?  

stever

Sounds like the seller is of the right age.

All I know for sure is that it's really fun spending other people's money....

fintail

I'd think that ZHP convertible is well priced. If you can find another as nice and loaded for the money, or any similar money, buy it. There will always be a market for it.

corvette

Buy it! It's tons nicer than the one in Greenwich and would end up costing you less in total. You will regret not buying it.

iluvmysephia1

Perhaps some sort of Edmunds member car auction, eh, stever?

Mr_Shiftright

This is a fairly large sedan...you don't want to be rowing a gearbox.

kyfdx said:

roadburner said:

So the '02 goes to its new home today and then this pops up. Dead ringer-except for the transmission-to the beloved car I owned from 1990-1992. Must resist...

78K miles!!!??

The slushbox would kill it for me..

a

kyfdx

graphicguy said:

kyfdx said:

This guy thinks your price is cheap!

http://enthusiastauto.com/qsearch/?id=4833&form_display=51#.VVZdx_lViko

Funny....I just met the nice young lady who does all their title work last night. She says 95% of their sales come from outside the area and they have to shop the cars. She said they do practically NO walk in business and that anyone who comes in to buy is usually just a tire kicker. So, they don't waste much time on them.

And yes....she said that any BMW dealership within a 3 state area will give you a better deal.

She mentioned their market is almost strictly the specialized BMW, the collector BMW or the hard to find BMW (or Porsche, or Audi or Mini).

Nice young lady, and very frank in how they do business.

Yeah...that place has sort of "evolved" into what they are now. They found a niche and they exploit it. I still get the queasy feeling there, that I do around all typical car selling places.

The feedback I've gotten from local buyers is that they work really hard to cosmetically get the cars up to snuff, but they aren't always the mechanical creampuffs that they are held out to be.

But, finding 10-20 year old enthusiast cars is tough. If you have the money and you are the kind of person that needs it right now, that's your place.

breld

corvette said:

Buy it! It's tons nicer than the one in Greenwich and would end up costing you less in total. You will regret not buying it.

Well....okay.  

Wife drove it home earlier this afternoon.  

corvette

breld said:

Well....okay.  

Wife drove it home earlier this afternoon.  

Congrats! Craigslist post is now down--what year and how many miles was it?

stever

Cruise down to Cruces and I'll buy you lunch with the bird dog C-Note the craigslist poster gave me. We're taking your car though.

breld

Well....okay.  

Wife drove it home earlier this afternoon.  

Congrats! Craigslist post is now down--what year and how many miles was it?

'05 w/75k miles. I'll post some of my own pics later on.

breld

Cruise down to Cruces and I'll buy you lunch with the bird dog C-Note the craigslist poster gave me. We're taking your car though.

I knew it.

au1994

breld said:

corvette said:

Buy it! It's tons nicer than the one in Greenwich and would end up costing you less in total. You will regret not buying it.

Well....okay.  

Wife drove it home earlier this afternoon.  

Congrats Breld!! Very happy for you! I know you will enjoy the car!!

carnaught

breld said:

corvette said:

Buy it! It's tons nicer than the one in Greenwich and would end up costing you less in total. You will regret not buying it.

Well....okay.  

Wife drove it home earlier this afternoon.  


Well, as I previously said, Breld is the Grand Poobah of the CCBA's, now with another of (corrected) all his recent punches.

corvette

Not quite, he's only bought two cars so far in 2015. He had five punches in 2014, so I don't think he should stop looking if he wants to keep up that pace.