Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

js06gv

qbrozen said:

Just browsing, as usual. Found some interesting things.

I am shocked at how cheap these are. That is actually quite overpriced since it is worth only about $2k as a trade. I think $5k is probably all the money.

Also a ridiculous price, but you gotta appreciate the miles. About a $5500-$6k car.

The wife would probably most like this, but at an obvious price. Around $11k on this one.

An 8-9 y/o Passat wagon with low miles would only bring 2K in trade? That is crazy low, even with VWs problems. Car looks nice and clean too.

nyccarguy

The Legacy is a good car. Solid commuter. It was cheap to buy and seems cheap to own. It's not all that exciting, but I should hold on to it for a while. In September, with payment 13 I started sending in extra principle (50% more). Once the Pilot is paid off in May I will be able to start making double payments on the Legacy. There are a lot of really nice cars that will be coming off lease in 2018 (I know, taking a page out of Sandy's book) like IS350 FSport, GS350 FSport, MB E350 Sport 4Matic, MB E250 Bluetec Sport 4 Matic, Macan S (not off lease, but owners looking to trade up)... Who knows.

Leasing is expensive for me due to the miles I drive every year. Leasing also gets expensive if you aren't leasing in the $200 - $300 per month range. It is so easy to get caught up in "the monthly payment" as opposed to the total cost of the lease. So yes it wasn't that much more expensive for me to lease my 328xi per month than my finance note on the TSX was. It did however cost me $16,160 to lease the car for 30 months plus about $1000 more in up front fees (acquisition fee & new plates).

robr2

js06gv said:

An 8-9 y/o Passat wagon with low miles would only bring 2K in trade? That is crazy low, even with VWs problems. Car looks nice and clean too.

I was surprised that I got $1400 on my 2005 Passat wagon last week. 135K miles, a check engine light, oil leak, rusted blob on the tailgate, 3 mm on the brake pads, and 3/32" on the tires. On the positive, I have records for maintenance every 5K miles. I said I would put it on craigslist as is for $1500. They offered me the $1400. SOLD!!

I was at the dealership Tuesday getting my inspection sticker and was told a couple of the techs are interested in it. They of course have the time, skills, and parts discount to fix everything. It would have cost me about $1500 to do so and might have gotten an extra $500 selling it myself. IMHO, it wasn't worth it.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

The Legacy is a good car. Solid commuter. It was cheap to buy and seems cheap to own. It's not all that exciting, but I should hold on to it for a while. In September, with payment 13 I started sending in extra principle (50% more). Once the Pilot is paid off in May I will be able to start making double payments on the Legacy. There are a lot of really nice cars that will be coming off lease in 2018 (I know, taking a page out of Sandy's book) like IS350 FSport, GS350 FSport, MB E350 Sport 4Matic, MB E250 Bluetec Sport 4 Matic, Macan S (not off lease, but owners looking to trade up)... Who knows.

Leasing is expensive for me due to the miles I drive every year. Leasing also gets expensive if you aren't leasing in the $200 - $300 per month range. It is so easy to get caught up in "the monthly payment" as opposed to the total cost of the lease. So yes it wasn't that much more expensive for me to lease my 328xi per month than my finance note on the TSX was. It did however cost me $16,160 to lease the car for 30 months plus about $1000 more in up front fees (acquisition fee & new plates).

You sound like me ... lease on the Elantra is up 11/2016. I'll probably get into another "value" lease of around $200/mo ... lots of choices at that price point, from the Scion iA iluv is raving about to LE and SE Camrys or Mazda 6 on the larger side of the spectrum. Given that I'll be over miles on my lease (I'm at 35K now with 12 months left), it's likely that I'll get into another Hyundai to minimize the out of pocket costs. But, I'll keep my options open.

When that lease is up in 2019, I'd like to think I can find a 2015 or 2016 off lease luxury brand and keep it for years.

Or, like my buddy in CA just did, find a nice luxury car that is 8-10 years old with extremely low miles at an attractive price (< $15-20K) and keep that.

nyccarguy

@Michaell - I also forgot to mention the wild card.  One of these days I might have to go look at a Buick Regal GS AWD that has some mega-outrageous GM incentive on it.  They have been running the GM Supplier price for Costco members over the last few years.  I've also seen $6000 cash back & 20% cash back rebates too.  Most of the dealers (around me anyway) seem to only stock FWD Regals.  

A dealer on Long Island (about an hour or so from me) has a 2015 Regsl GS AWD with sunroof & driver assistance package with a little over 1,000 miles on it.  They are asking $32K & change for it (used, not CPO).  It is $10K off sticker, but I'm not sure if it's "cheap enough."  I'm sure it was sitting on their lot for quite some time and they punched it as sold and pocketed the $6K cash incentive.  

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

@Michaell - I also forgot to mention the wild card.  One of these days I might have to go look at a Buick Regal GS AWD that has some mega-outrageous GM incentive on it.  They have been running the GM Supplier price for Costco members over the last few years.  I've also seen $6000 cash back & 20% cash back rebates too.  Most of the dealers (around me anyway) seem to only stock FWD Regals.  

A dealer on Long Island (about an hour or so from me) has a 2015 Regsl GS AWD with sunroof & driver assistance package with a little over 1,000 miles on it.  They are asking $32K & change for it (used, not CPO).  It is $10K off sticker, but I'm not sure if it's "cheap enough."  I'm sure it was sitting on their lot for quite some time and they punched it as sold and pocketed the $6K cash incentive.  

When I get ready to look at used luxury sleds I won't exclude anything - even Cadillac, despite the issues @graphicguy has encountered.

It will probably have AWD, but I don't need nav.

Mr_Shiftright

One owner, that's good, ECM replaced, ignition switch recall done. Cars approaching 80K need an extra hard lookover, as that's the mileage when things start to go, e.g., alternator, suspension parts, etc. Looks pretty nice, though, has been dealer serviced.

roadburner

The Buick dealer that is in the same group as my BMW dealer has a couple of CPO GS manuals; too bad they are only available with FWD...

Sandman6472

Wish I could lease but am going to do around 13K this year so probably not a good candidate. But deep down, would love the flexibility to swap out every few years and try something new. But the other half thinks this is nuts even though we each cover the costs of vehicle ownership now. But I do know that I do not want to go back to compact rides like the Corolla, Sentra or Civic and prefer something a bit nicer. That's why I'd look at an off lease CPO unit when the time comes again. There's one outfit down here that sells only these and see their license plate surrounds all over the place...they must do a good business.
Think as I get older, I want more lux in my vehicle and do not mind spending a bit more and looking at used CPO units.


The Sandman

Michaell

sandman_6472 said:

Wish I could lease but am going to do around 13K this year so probably not a good candidate. But deep down, would love the flexibility to swap out every few years and try something new. But the other half thinks this is nuts even though we each cover the costs of vehicle ownership now. But I do know that I do not want to go back to compact rides like the Corolla, Sentra or Civic and prefer something a bit nicer. That's why I'd look at an off lease CPO unit when the time comes again. There's one outfit down here that sells only these and see their license plate surrounds all over the place...they must do a good business.
Think as I get older, I want more lux in my vehicle and do not mind spending a bit more and looking at used CPO units.

The Sandman

Sandy, I've put 35,000 miles on my Elantra in the first two years of my 3 year lease .. I know I'm going to be over mileage, but that's OK. I'm sure I will find a dealer who will take it off my hands without too much damage to my wallet - if I choose another brand rather than Hyundai for my next lease.

nyccarguy

Here's a link to that 2015 Regal GS I saw last night. 1075 Miles. What does something like this cross the block at? $27K?

http://www.arnoldchevroletbuick.com/VehicleDetails/used-2015-Buick-Regal-GS-West_Babylon-NY/2639004143

ab348

nyccarguy said:

Here's a link to that 2015 Regal GS I saw last night. 1075 Miles. What does something like this cross the block at? $27K?

http://www.arnoldchevroletbuick.com/VehicleDetails/used-2015-Buick-Regal-GS-West_Babylon-NY/2639004143

Probably. They do not hold their value well. A good friend bought a similar-looking black/black 2012 GS in 2013 under similar circumstances, a dealer "demo" that they had brought in and could not sell. His has a manual transmission though.

He likes it very much though I think he wishes it was an automatic sometimes. He had an ongoing issue with a front end suspension clunk that intermittently came and went. They just recently figured it out and fixed it though I do not recall what the fix actually involved. It is quick but not Mustang GT quick, but handles very nicely and drives well.

As a former 2011 Regal Turbo owner I can tell you that they drive nicely, especially on the highway, and are pretty comfortable. I found the front seat cushions a bit short and the seats a bit on the firm side. Rear seat room is a bit tight but nowhere near as tight as my current ATS. The ATS is much more satisfying to drive quickly than the Turbo was, but I can't compare it to the GS. I suspect the GS is not as light on its feet as the ATS as it is a much heavier car.

Sandman6472

Think I am falling in love with either a BMW 1 Series I saw or the smallest MB model I also saw. This is totally nuts but I was searching the off lease website I now of and found a really really nice 1 Series hard top. Is this crazy or what??? Might go drive it this weekend just to see but gosh, think I'm having a mid life crisis here. Also saw a drop top version but that would really be crazy huh!! Really loving the way my Golf drives and am wondering if they drive similarly. Someone really needs to talk me off the ledge here as I know the wife would divorce me if I ever came home with another set of wheels especially since the Golf ain't even a year old yet! Even my middle girl made me say I'd not buy another car again for many years as she knows how crazy I can get over cars. But I am falling in lust right now, a very bad thing to do. Bet I could do o k trading in a Golf with under 12K on the clock as it is a gas powered one and not a diesel.
I know it's late and I can't sleep so maybe this is all just a dream. Yep, this all must be a dream, a bad one I suspect...a very bad one!!

The Tired Sandman

Michaell

Opinions sought - I figured there were enough here to help out our poster:

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/37992/general/x/car-for-son-moving-to-tacoma-wa#latest

qbrozen

The Couple of Regals with 800'ish miles each sold for $28.5k.

stickguy

Sandy, the BMW IMO will not drive at all like the golf. Very nice though!

In this case, from everything you have said, probably is best to stay put. Plus,my heyward coming out with a new version of that, right?

nyccarguy

GS AWDs?  That's quality depreciation right there.  Doesn't make sense to buy new.

au1994

@Sandman...never driven a Golf like yours but the 1-Series is going to be vastly different I suspect. In either form, 128i or 135i, its going to move out with authority, especially the 135. Interior will be tighter, backseat almost useless for adults. Styling was always a little polarizing in the BMW community. But it will be a great drive and will put a rather large ___ eating grin on your face when driven in a 'spirited' fashion.

suydam

Didn't you drive one before you got the Tucson and decided no go? 

Michaell

suydam said:

Didn't you drive one before you got the Tucson and decided no go? 

They can be rough riding, which wouldn't be good for sandy's back.

breld

@sandman_6472 - probably sounds funny coming from any of us, particularly me, but yeah, probably best to stay put right now. Even though your Golf is the gas version, I still think any VW is taking a pretty good hit on the market right now.

Having said that, if and when you do want to get into something else, I'd say the X1 is an ideal candidate. They've been around long enough that nice used deals should be out there. You'd get much of the fun of a 1-series, but in a slightly roomier package and, most importantly for you, something that sits a bit higher up.

au1994

Good call on the X1. Now that the revamped 2016 is out I saw nicely equipped 2015's on the lot in the upper 30's.

qbrozen

So I sent the wife some of the cars I've been finding. She nixed everything except the Caddy and, of course, said any Volvo would be best (I did not send her that 2008 V70 I found only because I didn't want to color her opinion of the other vehicles).

Stumbled upon this creampuff. Yeah, its the 2.4, I know. Not my first choice, but it is optioned correctly and a real nice color combo, not to mention the low miles. VERY pricey! I couldn't see paying more than $7k. Maybe $7500. But at that price, it has to be a keeper.

stickguy

Yeah, that is purty. Love the colors, and looks babied. Even just had the timing belt done.

Probably a dog, since has the same nine ad my S40, but for spare car duty, more than adequate. Turbo of course would be a plus!

I was a day late a few years back getting that same car, but with a stick. Darn.

ab348

breld said:

@sandman_6472 - probably sounds funny coming from any of us, particularly me, but yeah, probably best to stay put right now. Even though your Golf is the gas version, I still think any VW is taking a pretty good hit on the market right now.

I agree. The market for VW right now, plus the criticism you mentioned the other day from the distaff side, might make it wise to lay low for a while.

stever

Unless you drive them forev... oh, wait, never mind.

28firefighter

stever said:

Unless you drive them forev... oh, wait, never mind.

Wrong forum for that!

tifighter

stever said:

Unless you drive them forev... oh, wait, never mind.

Someone call security...

corvette

stever said:

Unless you drive them forev... oh, wait, never mind.

Forever, in this forum, means shortly after the first oil change. 

Michaell

It occurs to me that we ought to start an "anti-CCBA" discussion, with @stever as the lead. Tips and tricks to keep your car running forever, how to find a good indy mechanic, parts sourcing, what brands and models are good for 15 years and 200,000 miles, which aren't, etc.

roadburner

As of next Saturday I will have owned my ti for 20 years; tomorrow it's going to be displayed at the grand opening of BMW of Cincinnati- along with several other BMWs ranging from a 2002tii to an M235i.

28firefighter

@roadburner That's awesome!

jpp75

ab348 said:

breld said:

@sandman_6472 - probably sounds funny coming from any of us, particularly me, but yeah, probably best to stay put right now. Even though your Golf is the gas version, I still think any VW is taking a pretty good hit on the market right now.

I agree. The market for VW right now, plus the criticism you mentioned the other day from the distaff side, might make it wise to lay low for a while.

As much as I've always wanted a Touareg and could probably get a good deal on one right now I agree this isn't the time to buy one.

roadburner

28firefighter said:

@roadburner That's awesome!

It's pretty cool, although the selection process wasn't that stringent.
Here's the whole list:
1972 BMW 2002tii
1983 BMW 633 CSi
1989 BMW 635 CSi
1995 BMW M3 Coupe
1995 BMW 318ti Club Sport
1995 BMW 525i Sedan
1996 BMW M3 Coupe
1997 BMW M3 Sedan
1998 BMW M3 Sedan
1998 BMW M3 Sedan
1999 BMW M3 Coupe
1999 BMW Z3 M Coupe
2001 BMW 540i Touring
2003 BMW M3 Coupe
2003 BMW M3 Coupe
2003 BMW M5 Wagon
2005 BMW 530i Sedan
2006 BMW M3 Coupe ZCP
2007 BMW 335i Sedan
2008 BMW 135i Coupe
2008 BMW M3 Coupe
2013 BMW X1 xDrive35i
2015 BMW M235i Coupe

stever

Michaell said:

It occurs to me that we ought to start an "anti-CCBA" discussion, with @stever as the lead. Tips and tricks to keep your car running forever, how to find a good indy mechanic, parts sourcing, what brands and models are good for 15 years and 200,000 miles, which aren't, etc.

Hm, the previous four I've had hung around for 17 years, 10 years, 12 years and 15 years. Then I went out and got a six year old van with 125k and it's now pushing 158,000 miles.

The trick is just to drive them and fix 'em when they break.

/heresy

Sandman6472

Yep, probably best to stay the course. Agree that a used X1 down the road might just be the way to go. So will just squirrel some $ away and wait until the time is right. The Golf does drive great and who knows, I might just end up with the wife's A3 in a few years if she decides she wants out. Would gladly take it off her hands!!
Think a lot of that previous post was due to being overly tired and looking at too many used car ads on the computer.

The Sandman

imidazol97

stever said:

/heresy

LOL

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

It occurs to me that we ought to start an "anti-CCBA" discussion, with @stever as the lead. Tips and tricks to keep your car running forever, how to find a good indy mechanic, parts sourcing, what brands and models are good for 15 years and 200,000 miles, which aren't, etc.

 I think we tried that once in a topic, and the general consensus was that that form of car ownership was akin to living under communism in East Germany. 

iluvmysephia1

Well, guys, time for a iluvmysephia1 2016 Scion iA purchase possible purchase update. Here it is in all it's splendor. Mrs. iluvmysephia1 caught wind of my affair on FB (because I joined an iA owner's club on FB) and basically hit the roof of this old apartment.

I'd say my chances of scoring a new iA are about 1 in 75 right now. IOW's - if I baton down the hatches, feed the 2 cats and 2 dogs, put puppy pads down, leave about a gallon of water and head west ta Denver in the '11 Kia Soul, make the 380 mile cruise, test drive a 2016 iA in a week from now (while Mrs. iluv is visiting family in CHI), fall further in love with the actual iA, get an understanding finance dept., give a little to get what I figure is a lot for $15,470, put a few K down if I can't make a deal with our current financial situation for '0' down (not all that bad actually) and go 60 months or 72 months on an agreed-upon interest rate, see that there's Scion Pure Pricing, meaning no dealer bogus markup, agree on my own that I can't beat the Mountain States Scion of the Denver area deal, sign on the dotted line, and have a tall Diet Dr.Pepper and make some good old boy jokes with my salesman, I could probably score my Frost White '16 Scion iA.

I might want ta stop at a Denver bar on the way home and look for Walt Longmire and/maybe even Vic , order a couple of malt liquors and BS about why I'm in an adjoining state laughing with total strangers and happy as a Pacific NW clam about my beautiful bright white 2016 Scion iA. And have fun. Life is fun, we have to go after what we want, sometimes people we love need to chill-exter a bit and have a frosty tall one and relax a crimp, right.

That drive out east onto the Great Plains would be an absolute blast, guys. The car has 3 different music programs and who knows if I would be able to figure out how to actually get music coming outta the iA stock speaker getup.


2016 Scion iA



When Mrs.iluvmysephia1 arrives back in town from CHI, there's several outcome possibilities, not one of them would be much fun for iluvmysephia1. I haven't been able to think of anything clever to spring on her - nor do I think it would matter much. I love her so very much and I've never found a good way ta introduce a new automobile friend to the Mrs.

I rode around SW Kansas today with my Director from the hospital advertising my Dept.'s wares to area doctor's offices - my job is sound - she feels I should pull the trigger - I dug that a lot. The money will be there to pay the payments - it's our one car, for goodness sakes. Kind of a priority.

So there ya go - I love the dashing new small car made by Mazda for Scion - totally smitten with this little (Frost white in my case) go-kart - handling and true steering evidently are 2016 Scion iA strong points - guys, this car would be so fun to row my own 6-speeds with - I know I'll need ta wear protection when I go pick her up a little over a week from now at the Dodge City Amtrak Station - I know I should hold with the Clear White 2011 Kia Soul base 5-speed that we're about 15 payments in to on a 60-month long note - but, and, it's a big 'ol butt, I don't want to pass this little Denver Bomber up, car nuts.

Oh, a motorcycle helmet will be needed by me for protection. A strong mind, will and testament. RIP Dad - you taught me ta drive stick at 15 years, 9 months of age - then, because you also loved cars so much, made available your 1966 VW Fastback 4-speed runabout for me - I wrecked it in the snow and you...had it towed to the body shop and fixed. You never yelled at me - apparently in Europe you wrecked a new Hillman you had gone in on with some service mates in post-war WWII Europe - man, I love you so much for your love of the stick and the road and the motormachine - I don't know what you would tell me ta do - but, I've got about a week ta muse over this one.

If MSS turns down my offer (or, alternatively, I turn down their offer) this whole thing is mincemeat pie. Thoughts - suggestions - rebuttals? Save for a new car, she says. Pay it out once and pay it off at once - right away - at the beginning. The Dave Ramsey way. No loans. No interest, no payments. Humm...charming idea, really. I give it a one in 25 chance right now. What's kind of interesting is that every time I post a picture of this little buzz-bomb on here my interest level rises about 50%!

stever

Life is short, live dangerously.

My wife would freak out. She wouldn't mind the purchase one bit but the fact that I actually did something would give her heart spasms.

(you can hide out in our spare bedroom for a few months...

but you gotta loan me the keys occasionally)

stickguy

My wife would probably be happy that I did not drag her to 20 different dealers, and badger her endlessly with my mental processes (neurosis? something like that!).

one thing about having a car with long payments left. It sorta doesn't even "cost" anything. trade cars, keep making the same payments.

so for 45 months, nothing changes. If the new loan is 72, you have 27 new payments at the end.

now, this is where the math gets good. Effectively you are trading in the Soul when it is 8-9 years old (a 2011 4 years from now) and getting a 4 YO ia, for 27 payments. And by that time you would certainly be ready to move on from the soul, right? If the payments are $220/mo, that is $5,900.

so, in effect, you are just buying a car 4 years from now, but getting to drive it immediately!

note, more than 1 beer went into this analysis, so YMMV.

iluvmysephia1

Yeah, I think the fact Mrs.iluvmysephia1 doesn't drive only adds to the shaky outlook on buying new rigs, albeit inexpensive new rigs they always are. She grew up in Chicago, rode the El-Trains, took the bus, etc. Never learned ta drive. I've attempted teaching her and others have, too, but to no avail. The joy of driving is something she doesn't understand. It's more of a danger, an expense of Suse Ormon - Dave Ramsey - Clark Howard variety that is not ta be trusted much at all.

I wish she would trust me on these things - this one could really work out just fine for the two of us. It's not like I'm trying for a Ford Fusion 4-door, even. This is a little Mazda 4-door sedan!

Oh, well. The '11 Kia Soul is a good, competent machine. It is also fun to drive in its 5-speed stick form. I've waited purposely to get new rubber for it, it needs an oil change, and...grumble...it's time for its 60,000 mile timing belt swapout. I'll tread carefully, but if I drive out West I'll pounce with vigor, buy myself a motorcycle helmet and protective jacket...and baton down my own hatches for the first few weeks of MazdaScion iA ownership.

stever

Now that's interesting. Maybe the next move should be to Seattle. I have a non-driving BIL there who gets around fine. Your wife would be mobile, and you could get the iA or join an exotic car club or rent frequently.

And you could work on Boeing employees, lol.

iluvmysephia1

Now that's interesting. Maybe the next move should be to Seattle. I have a non-driving BIL there who gets around fine. Your wife would be mobile, and you could get the iA or join an exotic car club or rent frequently.

And you could work on Boeing employees, lol.

Yeah, interesting idea. It is where I was born, Seattle, and I was raised 15 miles north in Edmonds. I have enough experience in Allied Healthcare now, and, I have a sister living in a condo in Edmonds with her Detroit-born husband, and that particular sister adores me. Of the 4 siblings, she and I get along the best. She keeps shipping homemade cookies over to us.

You're right, the 2016 Scion iA would be ideal for iluv in Seattle, even with all of its horrendous traffic. I could buzz over to Mt.Pilchuck and do the Lake 22 climb with the Mrs. and our Akita Chow and our Pomeranian. That is just one of the things I truly miss about living in the Puget Sound region..the wonderful hikes available in the mountains and places like Fidalgo Island and Anacortes' Washington Park. Absolutely gorgeous there - if you pick a sunny time ta go, that is.

stickguy

well, this is a snazzy car. and the right # of pedals. Just too many miles for my taste.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2006-bmw-3_series-325i-used-14333749.html

qbrozen

I think there is a good chance we will go check out that '04 V70 tomorrow.

stickguy

I like it conceptually. and it gives off a good "vibe". just figure out a $ figure that makes sense, and offer it if you like it in person. if they want to hold out, oh well.

remind me though. what is the purpose of this one? Replacing the Fit as your spare car, or for the wife instead of the S70.

if does get hard to keep up with your fleet!

qbrozen

yes, yes it does.
It... uhhh... let's say its largely for the wife. At least that's what I told her. I'll then spend a month of weekends reconditioning the S70, and then we'll probably share them both.

iluvmysephia1

My wife would probably be happy that I did not drag her to 20 different dealers, and badger her endlessly with my mental processes (neurosis? something like that!).

one thing about having a car with long payments left. It sorta doesn't even "cost" anything. trade cars, keep making the same payments.

so for 45 months, nothing changes. If the new loan is 72, you have 27 new payments at the end.

now, this is where the math gets good. Effectively you are trading in the Soul when it is 8-9 years old (a 2011 4 years from now) and getting a 4 YO ia, for 27 payments. And by that time you would certainly be ready to move on from the soul, right? If the payments are $220/mo, that is $5,900.

so, in effect, you are just buying a car 4 years from now, but getting to drive it immediately!

note, more than 1 beer went into this analysis, so YMMV.

stick, I am upside down a few grand on my '11 Soul loan...but, if Mountain States Scion wants to treat me fairly on this deal and do just that - IOW's, they give fair trade-in, we can come to an agreement. I think that is why I am so excited ta still do this. Because of the unknown variable - the MSS finance department. Now, if they'll go '0' down I'll buy a round for the whole dealership! And that is how this thing will go - this ain't my first rodeo.

If I love the car on the test drive and feel like it will work out great for us for years - I am gonna negotiate hard on it for us. If they won't deal - give enough to the deal ta move their own metal - I haven't noticed they've sold even one iA in the couple of weeks I've been perusing their website - that if they want ta move metal I'll see if I can make a deal. I'll know within about 10-15 minutes of Pure Price dealing. What's nice about MSS is they don't mark up their sticker beyond the Scion Price. This dealership even knocks $1,000 off the Scion Pure Price. Oh, and there's some sped-up paperwork package from this dealer. So when you get there the process only takes a little while. Wow, this might even preclude even needing to drive out west, so wow, who knows?

Metal movers, man.

stickguy

are you sure that you and Sandy aren't long lost cousins or something?