Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

jmonroe

venture said:

stickguy said:

ab348 said:

stickguy said:

I hope Tenn wins this game then goes into KC and smokes the Chiefs too.

They might have a chance. Henry is impressive but the Titans defence was phenomenal. I found it odd they once again exposed Jackson's weakness throwing the ball when all year other teams didn't seem able to do that.

sometimes a certain team just matches up well against another, better team (or a defense vs a QB/offense),

I was reading somewhere that when two teams play each other in the playoffs and one team has the player with the most rushing yards and they are playing the team with the most rushing yards, the team with the player with the most rushing yards wins. 3 times in Divisional play and once in the Super Bowl.

I don't know what that has to do with the price of beans, but it's interesting.

Don't take this as an argument because it isn't. What you are repeating is nothing more that statistics and we all know they can be presented to support whatever side of the street you are on. In reality football is played to make 6 or 7 good plays combined both on offense and defense. When you can make those plays and you limit your opponent from making those same number of plays you will win more times than not. Of course there are exceptions to this but most of the time this philosophy works. This is why coaches go nuts when mistakes are made. To add some confusion to this is when during the game you make the important plays or don't make the killer mistake. You might be able to recover from a mistake that is made early in the game but not too often in the last 2 minutes.

jmonroe

jmonroe

Michaell said:

suydam said:

No I don’t get it. If a throwaway is a beater, that’s hardly Hyundai for a very long time now.

Exactly - my son, stepson, daughter in law and ex-wife all drive Hyundai vehicles. All are expected to be held long term.

Man, you guys gotta lighten up. You missed the humor I was throwing out. If I believed what I was saying, do you really think I'd have owned as many Hyundai cars that I have (4 so far). I think you get very good performance and reliability for what you pay. Geez, I thought the regulars in here would know that.

jmonroe

corvette

Dropped the Tahoe at the mechanic just now to get the oil leak looked at. Hope it’s something easy and cheap, otherwise I may actually be looking at the auto show next weekend.

stickguy

I have had 2 Hyundais recently. both excellent cars for their purpose. And very possible we end up with a 3rd soon. If we do get a Santa fe, it will be with the intent to keep for 10 years or so (conveniently, the length of the powertrain warranty!).

my family was actually early Hyundai adopters. My grandmother bought an early year Excel, which must have been late-80s. And my sister actually had 2 gen 1 Sonatas. at the same time (and I think same color), both sticks, and from what I remember, also good cars.

no clue why she kept getting 2 cars the same (her and her husband both had one), She later replaced them with a pair of Nissan (Sentra wagons I think). Both red. Pretty sure it was a psychological abuse thing going on (early in that string).

qbrozen

This is my first Korean car.

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

This is my first Korean car.

Had lunch with my son today. He said the same thing....”never thought I’d see you in a Kia”.

Deja vu all over again....resembling Honda and Toyota now compared to what they were in the ‘70s. Hyundai and Kia are executing from the same play book.

corvette

On these super-cheap leases (like the Ioniq and the Tacoma/Tundra), I wonder what the breakeven point is--if you bought the car outright, how long would you have to keep it before you're better off, after selling it, than you would have been continuously leasing?

stickguy

I have been doing that recently with a few of the cars I am considering. and even with a pretty good lease, it always seems to come out cheaper to buy it up front than it would be to lease and buy it at the end. That at least is an easy comparison. Harder to say about leasing again not know what you can get in the future (plus then you have a new car not an old car!)

or are you really asking if you will have equity at the end of the lease based on the residual? The Ioniq might, but I doubt the Tacoma would since I think that they get the lease cheap by inflating the residual, not buying down the cap cost.

kyfdx

corvette said:

On these super-cheap leases (like the Ioniq and the Tacoma/Tundra), I wonder what the breakeven point is--if you bought the car outright, how long would you have to keep it before you're better off, after selling it, than you would have been continuously leasing?

If you could guarantee continuous ultra cheap leases, their would never be a break-even point for buying. Of course, three years away, you don’t know what will happen.

28firefighter

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

On these super-cheap leases (like the Ioniq and the Tacoma/Tundra), I wonder what the breakeven point is--if you bought the car outright, how long would you have to keep it before you're better off, after selling it, than you would have been continuously leasing?

If you could guarantee continuous ultra cheap leases, their would never be a break-even point for buying. Of course, three years away, you don’t know what will happen.

The trick is flexibility. But to your point, I don’t see the cheap lease bandwagon remaining possible indefinitely.

stickguy

they seem to be more of the exception now, but still pop up. But like you said, flexibility. So you are basically taking what pops up on the clearance rack, not what you actually prefer to have! Not like QB was desperately seeking a Murano or Ioniq, but got looking at them because of the $. Hopefully the Hyundai works out, and seems like a reasonable choice so far. But, if it turns out to not be a great choice, oops.

and in a few years when that lease is over, who knows what you will be driving!

qbrozen

Carvana offer is just about spot on (actually few hundred more) than my cap cost.

corvette

or are you really asking if you will have equity at the end of the lease based on the residual? The Ioniq might, but I doubt the Tacoma would since I think that they get the lease cheap by inflating the residual, not buying down the cap cost.

Nope, cheap lease followed by cheap lease vs. buy and hold. Some of these leases are so cheap, I don’t know how you’d ever come out ahead buying. As kyfdx noted, there’s no guarantee you will be able to get another cheap lease on something you want, once you’re on that merry go round.

qbrozen

I looked at several used cars and compared their projected depreciation over the next 3 yrs. All would have been more expensive than this lease. That’s crazy. And those weren’t expensive vehicles. These were $10k-$15k cars.

stickguy

qbrozen said:

Carvana offer is just about spot on (actually few hundred more) than my cap cost.

so, you had the car 1 day, and already ran it through Carvana? That might be a new record!

breld

For me anyway, you lease when 1) you want a low monthly payment to serve a purpose or 2) there are additional incentives to lower the purchase price further than a finance/purchase.

Flexibility on a lease is nice, and in the event of damage, it’s nice to hand the car back in without diminished value being an issue.

stickguy

corvette said:

or are you really asking if you will have equity at the end of the lease based on the residual? The Ioniq might, but I doubt the Tacoma would since I think that they get the lease cheap by inflating the residual, not buying down the cap cost.

Nope, cheap lease followed by cheap lease vs. buy and hold. Some of these leases are so cheap, I don’t know how you’d ever come out ahead buying. As kyfdx noted, there’s no guarantee you will be able to get another cheap lease on something you want, once you’re on that merry go round.

hard to know what you can buy it for though sometimes, but you can ballpark. And have to guess what it will be worth in say 6 years. And there is always the apples to oranges aspect of in 3 years, having a new car not the old one for years 4-6. And how long you will hold. If you will go out 8 years, math changes.

it is though the super cheap leases skew things. At a normal lease, say $240/month it looks a lot worse!

pensfan83

The 2 year lease cost for the Tacoma is under $6,000 and maintenance is covered as well. Gas and inspections are all we have.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

qbrozen said:

Carvana offer is just about spot on (actually few hundred more) than my cap cost.

so, you had the car 1 day, and already ran it through Carvana? That might be a new record!

I ran it through before even test driving. LOL.

stickguy

qbrozen said:

I looked at several used cars and compared their projected depreciation over the next 3 yrs. All would have been more expensive than this lease. That’s crazy. And those weren’t expensive vehicles. These were $10k-$15k cars.

at the crazy price you got, definitely going to be very few cars that the $ don't work in your favor. And you probably don't want to drive them, and of course, are almost a lock to have some real maintenance and repair costs piled on.

when my car goes back, assuming I still just need a low miles spare car (with the wife having the nice car), I will look at used, which I really hate doing now, but most likely will end up where you are in a low mile basic lease. Less hassle, not really much if any more money, get to drive a new car. Great if paying $200/month. Not so good if it is $400/month.

qbrozen

pensfan83 said:

The 2 year lease cost for the Tacoma is under $6,000 and maintenance is covered as well. Gas and inspections are all we have.

Under $5760 for me on 3 yrs. The aforementioned used vehicles were all projected to drop $6k in 3 yrs, and that was not even including finance charges and taxes.

breld

So the purchase price/cap cost of the Ioniq was significantly discounted I assume? Must have been to condense that depreciation so much.

Were any of those incentives specific to a lease vs finance? Were any of them specific to it being a PHEV (like tax credits)?

stickguy

The problem for me is, we are shopping for my wife's car. So what it is, equipment level, and color are what matters to her. And so far, have not seen any kind of lease that makes it a no brainer move to grab one. and the stuff I have seen cheap is not anything she would ever want.

so as soon as you come up with a $299/mo, $299/down on a Santa Fe limited 2.0t, let me know. I will take on in blue or red or white, white the 2 tone tan and black interior.

I actually should also have her drive a base engine model, but I really thing it will feel like a putt putt mobile coming out of the hot rod RDX

breld

qbrozen said:

pensfan83 said:

The 2 year lease cost for the Tacoma is under $6,000 and maintenance is covered as well. Gas and inspections are all we have.

Under $5760 for me on 3 yrs. The aforementioned used vehicles were all projected to drop $6k in 3 yrs, and that was not even including finance charges and taxes.

And I agree 100% with this - it's how I looked at my recent transaction...comparing the depreciation of the V90 paid via the lease vs expected depreciation on the used vehicles I was considering.

breld

qbrozen said:

stickguy said:

qbrozen said:

Carvana offer is just about spot on (actually few hundred more) than my cap cost.

so, you had the car 1 day, and already ran it through Carvana? That might be a new record!

I ran it through before even test driving. LOL.

That's a great way to get a true feel for the value of a car. I did the same as I was lightly considering a Leaf at the end of the year - I wanted to know where I'd come out with all the federal and state incentives on the purchase.

stickguy

as to the question of lease and lease vs. buy and hold, I actually reversed engineered this recently on the RDX. Using the Carvana quote and what I paid including taxes and finance charges, I think I backed into having had to pay $250/month on a lease payment for the time I have owned it (assuming putting nothing down ever). Considering at the beginning a lease was more like 2x that, and 3 years later they were not coming close, it would have cost us a boatload more to have swapped it for a 2016 after 3 years (though at this point we would be in a new design model, for even way more money),

pensfan83

qbrozen said:

pensfan83 said:

The 2 year lease cost for the Tacoma is under $6,000 and maintenance is covered as well. Gas and inspections are all we have.

Under $5760 for me on 3 yrs. The aforementioned used vehicles were all projected to drop $6k in 3 yrs, and that was not even including finance charges and taxes.

Very nice. I think I'm a little under that for the 2 years, I did a one pay but the equivalent monthly was around $230-$235.

explorerx4

I did go look at new truck today.

breld

Leasing serves a purpose - to minimize your current monthly payments and reduce some risk by guaranteeing your endgame.

Mostly, it's become a great way for the industry to get the buyers into a car with little transparency. All of us are savvy enough to understand what's going on behind the curtain, but most buyers aren't.

Let's say discounts are the same between a lease and financing, so the purchase price and cap cost are equal. And further assume the interest rate is equivalent or similar to the lease money rate....economically there is no difference.

breld

explorerx4 said:

I did go look at new truck today.

Oh? Do tell!

breld

nyccarguy said:

@breld - used car prices are out of hand. I know the Mazda Speed 3 is a rare bird, but cmon. $12,500 for an 11 year old car that was how much when new?

Yeah, I agree. It'll be interesting to see how these Mazdas (this and the MP3) fare...I'll be keeping an eye on the listings. While a Prelude, CRX or Integra of that vintage can draw heavy premiums, I'm not so sure Mazda has the same pull.

stickguy

breld said:

Leasing serves a purpose - to minimize your current monthly payments and reduce some risk by guaranteeing your endgame.

Mostly, it's become a great way for the industry to get the buyers into a car with little transparency. All of us are savvy enough to understand what's going on behind the curtain, but most buyers aren't.

Let's say discounts are the same between a lease and financing, so the purchase price and cap cost are equal. And further assume the interest rate is equivalent or similar to the lease money rate....economically there is no difference.

well, there are the extra lease costs that get rolled in (bank fee, disposition fee) that in theory are extra on the lease if the purchase price is the same.

and it is not just the monthly payment, it is cash outlay combined with the payment. At times you need a reliable car but don't have available cash to put down (say, 2 kids in college!) so a lease gets you what you need for the manageable payment. On a buy, only pulling that off with a bunch of cash down, or else your no money down payment will be a whole lot higher (and for longer term),

stickguy

I did like that MP3. not at that price though. new enough to be a regular use car, but still fun.

qbrozen

breld said:

So the purchase price/cap cost of the Ioniq was significantly discounted I assume? Must have been to condense that depreciation so much.

Were any of those incentives specific to a lease vs finance? Were any of them specific to it being a PHEV (like tax credits)?

Honestly I don’t know. But incentives were $10,043.

stickguy

considering MSRP was $26k, a 40% discount explains that low payment.

on the flip side, I would have considered buying it and running real cheap for 10 years!

breld

stickguy said:

breld said:

Leasing serves a purpose - to minimize your current monthly payments and reduce some risk by guaranteeing your endgame.

Mostly, it's become a great way for the industry to get the buyers into a car with little transparency. All of us are savvy enough to understand what's going on behind the curtain, but most buyers aren't.

Let's say discounts are the same between a lease and financing, so the purchase price and cap cost are equal. And further assume the interest rate is equivalent or similar to the lease money rate....economically there is no difference.

well, there are the extra lease costs that get rolled in (bank fee, disposition fee) that in theory are extra on the lease if the purchase price is the same.

and it is not just the monthly payment, it is cash outlay combined with the payment. At times you need a reliable car but don't have available cash to put down (say, 2 kids in college!) so a lease gets you what you need for the manageable payment. On a buy, only pulling that off with a bunch of cash down, or else your no money down payment will be a whole lot higher (and for longer term),

Agreed. Those lease fees are indeed an extra cost and the price of the flexibility.

And also agree that leasing can serve a good purpose.

breld

qbrozen said:

breld said:

So the purchase price/cap cost of the Ioniq was significantly discounted I assume? Must have been to condense that depreciation so much.

Were any of those incentives specific to a lease vs finance? Were any of them specific to it being a PHEV (like tax credits)?

Honestly I don’t know. But incentives were $10,043.

On a sub-$30k car? Crazy.

corvette

I remember those Protege MP3s. I had put an MP3 disc compatible head unit in the Jetta I had at the time, so it wasn’t a huge draw for me. (Wasn’t that and maybe some alloys the only difference between that and a standard Protege?)

breld

corvette said:

I remember those Protege MP3s. I had put an MP3 disc compatible head unit in the Jetta I had at the time, so it wasn’t a huge draw for me. (Wasn’t that and maybe some alloys the only difference between that and a standard Protege?)

I had to refresh my memory by reading a C&D review, but there were various "aftermarket" upgrades from the factory, like the steering wheel, that stereo, the obligatory body kit and a 10 hp bump to a whopping 140 hp.

It's at a lot on my way to work, so I just have to lay eyes on it.

stickguy

140 is plenty. My '91 626 had a whopping 110, and moved along just fine.

ab348

Man, I don’t think I have seen a Protege on the roads here in close to 10 years. They had very bad rust problems in this environment.

explorerx4

@breld,
Sure I'm not the only one looking something that better fits their 'needs'.
Thinking of going down a couple of trim levels, but keep most of the stuff I want.
With current incentives on leftover 19's, I thinking I could swap for $4-5k(plus fees/etc...).

qbrozen

breld said:

qbrozen said:

breld said:

So the purchase price/cap cost of the Ioniq was significantly discounted I assume? Must have been to condense that depreciation so much.

Were any of those incentives specific to a lease vs finance? Were any of them specific to it being a PHEV (like tax credits)?

Honestly I don’t know. But incentives were $10,043.

On a sub-$30k car? Crazy.

Total discount, including dealer contribution, was a tick over 46%.

Residual was about 47%, so paying just 9% depreciation.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

considering MSRP was $26k, a 40% discount explains that low payment.

on the flip side, I would have considered buying it and running real cheap for 10 years!

Hahahahahah!!
Ok, sure, you’d consider it, but you wouldn’t actually succeed. ;b

stickguy

must be one heck of a low residual.

just checked the Rodo deal on one ($185/mo). Said $11,200 incentives applied, and residual of $12,448 off an MSRP of $26,485. So a 47% residual on a 3 year, 12K/year lease.

that will get the payment down! And could be a nice buy at the end of it if you needed a cheap car.

pensfan83

It's certainly a cheap way to whet one's appetite if your looking to eventually go full EV.

breld

Gee, I thought my 29-ish% discount on the V90 was good.

breld

On a completely unrelated note (but very much related to cars)...

My wife and stepdaughter are currently stuck on I-70 in the mountains with a failed clutch on her 8K mile Alltrack.

In heavy weekend traffic, the clutch apparently went down and refused to return from the floor, leaving the two of them stuck in the middle lane approaching Eisenhower Tunnel.

State patrol showed up to help get the car to an emergency lot and they are currently waiting on VW roadside assistance to tow the wagon down to a dealer in Denver.

28firefighter

breld said:

On a completely unrelated note (but very much related to cars)...

My wife and stepdaughter are currently stuck on I-70 in the mountains with a failed clutch on her 8K mile Alltrack.

In heavy weekend traffic, the clutch apparently went down and refused to return from the floor, leaving the two of them stuck in the middle lane approaching Eisenhower Tunnel.

State patrol showed up to help get the car to an emergency lot and they are currently waiting on VW roadside assistance to tow the wagon down to a dealer in Denver.

Wow. That’s gotta be a factory defect. And a scary time to have it fail.

breld

explorerx4 said:

@breld,
Sure I'm not the only one looking something that better fits their 'needs'.
Thinking of going down a couple of trim levels, but keep most of the stuff I want.
With current incentives on leftover 19's, I thinking I could swap for $4-5k(plus fees/etc...).

Oh how trucks hold their value...I'm envious.

And...go for it!