Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

stickguy

I'll look at a cooper just for giggles. Hard to see it working out, though I have done stupid things in the past!

ab348

A Mini strikes me as the kind of car a lot of people test-drive and go crazy over because it is different and fun. Then they make the deal and end up hating it after having to live with it for a while, sort of like many people who buy Jeep Wranglers as daily drivers. That, along with the Mini's sketchy reliability record.

corvette

qbrozen said:

The killer app with the Chromecast, for me, was being able to cast any browser tab from my laptop onto the TV. All those online video sites that aren't native to your DVD player or smart TV, you can just play on your computer and cast to the Chromecast.

That's the thing I wanted it for, but it would not work right for me. Really low res, choppy pic, voices not synced with lips, etc.

I found that casting video from a computer doesn't work well with older machines. Also, some of the low-end wireless routers can't handle the bandwidth required to stream video between the computer and the Chromecast, which is another reason the video might be choppy.

Mr_Shiftright

You should look at the new Fiat 500X also (Jeep drivetrain).

stever said:

stickguy said:

Once daughter goes back I will have an empty bay. That goes against the laws of nature. not filling it with junk, so will need a car instead!

We also don't have chewing critter issues.

Yep, it's the law for sure - my other bay is more than half full.

My sister had about $4,000 worth of wiring problems with mice or something chewing in her engine compartment and she's back in NE Virginia. Some say Subarus have tasty wiring anyway though. I got major brownie points for telling her to call her insurance company and they covered it.

Emailed the local Honda dealer to see if the two HR-Vs in their online inventory are really in stock. That was an hour ago and no reply yet.

stever

Kind of want to switch brands - already driving a Dodge now. At least my current Dodge is a box; that's another reason why I like the Soul.

Oh, the "internet" salesguy contacted me around 3 yesterday. Took a while for my web inquiry to filter down to him. They have one in stock, right trim (EX-L) but it's black. Going to try to go take a look.

Mr_Shiftright

I think that is certainly true of cars like the Fiat 500 and the Smart, but the Mini is pretty lux inside and way more fun than most cars its size. And you get to park in tight places while racking up pretty good fuel mileage.

Downside, as you say, is reliability, but I don't think they are any worse than most BWM products. (BMW owners with N63 turbo engines take note).

ab348 said:

A Mini strikes me as the kind of car a lot of people test-drive and go crazy over because it is different and fun. Then they make the deal and end up hating it after having to live with it for a while, sort of like many people who buy Jeep Wranglers as daily drivers. That, along with the Mini's sketchy reliability record.

stever

Good "showroom" experience at the local one-price no haggle autoplex. Sat in a HR-V and then tried on a Tucson to compare notes. Was offered test drives but declined. Good sales guy, no old school crap.

The base Tucson seemed a bit more upscale than the EX-L even with the "lowly" cloth seats (I generally prefer cloth and the seats felt more comfy from a short sit). Both seemed roomy enough although the upper "wing" on the HR-V console could use a bit of saw work. Maybe it moves forward and back, but the middle armrest felt too far back.

The HR-V has a lower liftover height and that was a big plus. Seemed roomier but the specs may say different. Made a better impression on me that our Fit test drives about 5 years ago. Better mpg than the Tucson too (1.8l v a 2.0 I believe).

Going to wait until a better color comes in and test drive it with my wife along. Still like the way the Soul looks better though.

roadburner

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think that is certainly true of cars like the Fiat 500 and the Smart, but the Mini is pretty lux inside and way more fun than most cars its size. And you get to park in tight places while racking up pretty good fuel mileage.

Downside, as you say, is reliability, but I don't think they are any worse than most BWM products. (BMW owners with N63 turbo engines take note).

I still monitor a couple of Fiat 500 forums and I see little evidence of buyers remorse. In fact, in the Abarth topics the most serious issue tends to be the body side skirts coming loose(usually to improper jacking) and the lower steering column shroud coming adrift. The 500L is a bit of a problem child, but it's an entirely different vehicle.
That said, I rented a base 500 and drove it from Louisville KY to Columbia SC and back and it was anything but a penalty box- the seats were more comfortable than the non-sport seats in my wife's E90 328I, and the audio system sounded at least as good as the one in the 3er(I know, that's damning with faint praise).

And I still think that you'd have to be a bit of a ninny to test drive a Wrangler, buy it, and then complain that it's noisy, rides stiffly, and has a complicated convertible top.. Kind of like buying a 911 and then griping about the poor rear seat accommodations.

stever

@roadburner, the X Lounge and Trekking Collections do have all the bells and whistles (we want the big hole in the roof; well, holes in this case. I know, don't shoot me. ). TMV comes in at $32,500 for a loaded Trekking Plus.

Don't really need the AWD so that would knock it down to $30,600....

Hm, Soul+ with Primo is closer to $23k.

I dunno; went to town and bought a bench to give to friends and no sweat tossing it into the big empty in the van. I'm sure it would fit in the mini-SUVs too though. Maybe....

stickguy

so, does it make me seem erratic if I just rattled off a "maybe" list consisting of a Miata, Mini, mustang convertible, Civic Si, Wrangler and a Ram PU?

xwesx

stickguy said:

so, does it make me seem erratic if I just rattled off a "maybe" list consisting of a Miata, Mini, mustang convertible, Civic Si, Wrangler and a Ram PU?

No, I suspect people cross-shop that lineup all the time!

Mr_Shiftright

If somebody gave me a Fiat 500 I'd be plenty happy. I think I came up with the idea of dissatisfaction by noticing the huge number of low mileage, nearly new Fiat 500s being offered everywhere I look. I mean, even my local muffler shop has THREE Fiat 500s for sale in his front lot. The Chevy dealer must have 3-4 of them and the so-called "lemon lots" are full of 'em.

Also even a quick glance at reliability charts do not paint a pretty picture for the Fiat brand right now.

Still, a bad 2015 Fiat is probably a lot better than a good 1995 car.

Perhaps it's because California is a treacherous place for a small underpowered car.

roadburner said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think that is certainly true of cars like the Fiat 500 and the Smart, but the Mini is pretty lux inside and way more fun than most cars its size. And you get to park in tight places while racking up pretty good fuel mileage.

Downside, as you say, is reliability, but I don't think they are any worse than most BWM products. (BMW owners with N63 turbo engines take note).

I still monitor a couple of Fiat 500 forums and I see little evidence of buyers remorse. In fact, in the Abarth topics the most serious issue tends to be the body side skirts coming loose(usually to improper jacking) and the lower steering column shroud coming adrift. The 500L is a bit of a problem child, but it's an entirely different vehicle.
That said, I rented a base 500 and drove it from Louisville KY to Columbia SC and back and it was anything but a penalty box- the seats were more comfortable than the non-sport seats in my wife's E90 328I, and the audio system sounded at least as good as the one in the 3er(I know, that's damning with faint praise).

And I still think that you'd have to be a bit of a ninny to test drive a Wrangler, buy it, and then complain that it's noisy, rides stiffly, and has a complicated convertible top.. Kind of like buying a 911 and then griping about the poor rear seat accommodations.

stever

Q: What do you call the passengers in a Yugo?

A: Shock absorbers"

Hey, it's no Fiat for sure. And we (the "editorial" we) bought one.

stickguy

was getting all excited about an Si. pushing all the right buttons (cheap lease, stick, fun). Then looked at pics, and checked the specs on the rubber bands, to find:

P225/40HR18

That, is way beyond my comfort zone! Major red flag.

carnaught

A key reason Fiat left the U.S. Market years ago was poor reliability. It doesn't seem like they changed much except for having a positive effect on Chrysler.

fintail

Pretty fun read. It'll be interesting to see how it holds up.

Back in the 90s,a guy down the street from my grandmother had like 6 or 8 of them, most of them non-runners in the back yard.

stever said:

Q: What do you call the passengers in a Yugo?

A: Shock absorbers"

Hey, it's no Fiat for sure. And we (the "editorial" we) bought one.

sda

carnaught said:

A key reason Fiat left the U.S. Market years ago was poor reliability. It doesn't seem like they changed much except for having a positive effect on Chrysler.

Actually I think it is the reverse, Chrysler being a positive influence on Fiat. If I recall the CEO of Fiat has been so impressed with the work ethic of Chrysler he said something to the effect that he would like Fiat workers to be like them! And to his credit, they loosened the purse strings to allow some good product development unlike the private equity firm that bought Chrysler from Daimler.

roadburner

stickguy said:

was getting all excited about an Si. pushing all the right buttons (cheap lease, stick, fun). Then looked at pics, and checked the specs on the rubber bands, to find:

P225/40HR18

That, is way beyond my comfort zone! Major red flag.

Gotta pay to play. Man up and go for it! I run 225/45ZR18 summer and 215/45WR18 winter on the Mazdaspeed. and several of the sleds I'm looking at run either 19" or 20" tires.
And after 8 years and over 153k miles I have yet to replace a tire or wheel on the MS3 due to road hazards...

kyfdx

225/40-18 is the size I have on the front of my car.... It's definitely low profile. Still, all of my wheels are still round, and the car is 9 years old..

fezo

I've become quite the fan of low profile tires. Of course the 5 has 50 profile not 40...

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

was getting all excited about an Si. pushing all the right buttons (cheap lease, stick, fun). Then looked at pics, and checked the specs on the rubber bands, to find: P225/40HR18 That, is way beyond my comfort zone! Major red flag.

I'd reserve judgment until after you test drive.  

stickguy

45 is my absolute limit. really prefer to stay at 50 or above.

I am sure they handle nice. On the 3-4 miles of smooth pavement within 50 miles of my house. Not sure that they will be happy with the usual bomb craters that make up most of our roads.

Must be nice to live someplace where smooth pavement is the norm, not cause for amazement.

but at least this is a performance car. having them on a family sedan is really silly.

nyccarguy

Fun to drive, cheap, cheap to lease, manual transmission, & a sunroof? Hard to beat the Civic Si. Just looked at Weymouth Honda's website: 2015 Civic Si Manual Transmission - 36 months/20K per year (52.73% residual & .0003 money factor) including 6.35% CT sales tax gives me a payment of $265.88 per month with $624 due at signing plus CT tags & registration.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

Fun to drive, cheap, cheap to lease, manual transmission, & a sunroof? Hard to beat the Civic Si. Just looked at Weymouth Honda's website: 2015 Civic Si Manual Transmission - 36 months/20K per year (52.73% residual & .0003 money factor) including 6.35% CT sales tax gives me a payment of $265.88 per month with $624 due at signing plus CT tags & registration.

Wonder if that lease deal will be around a year from November?

nyccarguy

Michaell said:

nyccarguy said:

Fun to drive, cheap, cheap to lease, manual transmission, & a sunroof? Hard to beat the Civic Si. Just looked at Weymouth Honda's website: 2015 Civic Si Manual Transmission - 36 months/20K per year (52.73% residual & .0003 money factor) including 6.35% CT sales tax gives me a payment of $265.88 per month with $624 due at signing plus CT tags & registration.

Wonder if that lease deal will be around a year from November?


Probably not. New 2016 Civic Type S & Type R will be here, selling like hot cakes with little or no lease support.

stickguy

Heck, 12K/year on an Si sedan (base) is $195/mo + tax, so about $209 with ~$600 at inception.

that, is cheap.

though somehow, getting a stick may bite me in the butt eventually. But to heck with it!

Too bad I am no where near Massachusetts.

28firefighter

Well, the punch is officially in and I wished the VW a fond farewell. My wife is the proud owner of a 2015 Ford Escape Titanium with Tech Package, Moonroof, Nav and Crossbars.

By way of background for what prompted this search, my office building canceled my company's special rate for parking and as of August 1st, will be going up to the standard Seattle price of $315/month. That is simply not an amount of money I'm willing to pay for a parking space. Starting in a couple of weeks I'll be biking to work or taking the bus. We figured it made no sense to have a car sit in the garage with a payment that wouldn't be driven except on weekends, so combined with my wife's desire for an SUV, we started looking.

We originally settled on a leftover 2015 CX-5, but were soured by one dealer experience and a lack of inventory at the others. My wife saw an Escape and commented how much she liked how it looked. We drove one on Sunday and that sold her. The primary factors were the safety features (front and rear park assist, camera, BLIS, cross traffic alert) and the power from the 2.0 EcoBoost.

I submitted my numbers to three dealers locally, including what I wanted on trade (which was to break even in our payoff). One dealer bit and, after some back and forth clarification of rebates, we had a deal. Super straightforward and no messing around.

Picked it up tonight, no surprises. They offered the usual mop and glo, but it wasn't obnoxious or a hard sell. We declined and were in and out in under 2 hours. Final deal was first month and tags at signing (just under $500) and $290 a month including tax. The capitalized cost after their rebates was something like $8500 off the 37k MSRP. They also paid off the VW in full (19,400 payoff).

Initial impressions of the car to follow once my wife lets me spend any significant time behind the wheel.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Too bad I am no where near Massachusetts.

Hey, you're a lot closer than I am!

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

Heck, 12K/year on an Si sedan (base) is $195/mo + tax, so about $209 with ~$600 at inception.

that, is cheap.

though somehow, getting a stick may bite me in the butt eventually. But to heck with it!

Too bad I am no where near Massachusetts.

Hop your rear end on a train to my place, we'll go & pick up the car, have dinner with @robr2 & @laurasdada, then turn around and trek home:) I was actually in your neighborhood over the weekend. Family Wedding in Philly (Society Hill).

nyccarguy

28firefighter said:

Well, the punch is officially in and I wished the VW a fond farewell. My wife is the proud owner of a 2015 Ford Escape Titanium with Tech Package, Moonroof, Nav and Crossbars.

By way of background for what prompted this search, my office building canceled my company's special rate for parking and as of August 1st, will be going up to the standard Seattle price of $315/month. That is simply not an amount of money I'm willing to pay for a parking space. Starting in a couple of weeks I'll be biking to work or taking the bus. We figured it made no sense to have a car sit in the garage with a payment that wouldn't be driven except on weekends, so combined with my wife's desire for an SUV, we started looking.

We originally settled on a leftover 2015 CX-5, but were soured by one dealer experience and a lack of inventory at the others. My wife saw an Escape and commented how much she liked how it looked. We drove one on Sunday and that sold her. The primary factors were the safety features (front and rear park assist, camera, BLIS, cross traffic alert) and the power from the 2.0 EcoBoost.

I submitted my numbers to three dealers locally, including what I wanted on trade (which was to break even in our payoff). One dealer bit and, after some back and forth clarification of rebates, we had a deal. Super straightforward and no messing around.

Picked it up tonight, no surprises. They offered the usual mop and glo, but it wasn't obnoxious or a hard sell. We declined and were in and out in under 2 hours. Final deal was first month and tags at signing (just under $500) and $290 a month including tax. The capitalized cost after their rebates was something like $8500 off the 37k MSRP. They also paid off the VW in full (19,400 payoff).

Initial impressions of the car to follow once my wife lets me spend any significant time behind the wheel.

Mazel-Tov & Congrats on the punch. The Escape is a really nice vehicle. The Turbo sets it apart from the competition. My Father-In-Law has one (the 1.6 Turbo) and he's very happy with it. I've been in it a few times and really love the front seats. Very comfortable & supportive. Looking forward to hearing your impressions.

stever

The guy showing me the HR-V and Tucson yesterday suggested that we should look at an Escape. Said there were some great deals on them. Congrats!

qbrozen

stickguy said:

45 is my absolute limit. really prefer to stay at 50 or above.

I'm sure you know this, but just to be sure: there is more to it than just the 2nd number. The 2nd number is completely dependent on the 1st. So a 40 profile on a 275 tire, for instance, is quite a bit taller than a 40 on a 225.

For example, the 245/35s on the rear of my 135i were rubber bands compared to the 275/35 on the Caddy.

28firefighter

nyccarguy said:

28firefighter said:

Well, the punch is officially in and I wished the VW a fond farewell. My wife is the proud owner of a 2015 Ford Escape Titanium with Tech Package, Moonroof, Nav and Crossbars.

By way of background for what prompted this search, my office building canceled my company's special rate for parking and as of August 1st, will be going up to the standard Seattle price of $315/month. That is simply not an amount of money I'm willing to pay for a parking space. Starting in a couple of weeks I'll be biking to work or taking the bus. We figured it made no sense to have a car sit in the garage with a payment that wouldn't be driven except on weekends, so combined with my wife's desire for an SUV, we started looking.

We originally settled on a leftover 2015 CX-5, but were soured by one dealer experience and a lack of inventory at the others. My wife saw an Escape and commented how much she liked how it looked. We drove one on Sunday and that sold her. The primary factors were the safety features (front and rear park assist, camera, BLIS, cross traffic alert) and the power from the 2.0 EcoBoost.

I submitted my numbers to three dealers locally, including what I wanted on trade (which was to break even in our payoff). One dealer bit and, after some back and forth clarification of rebates, we had a deal. Super straightforward and no messing around.

Picked it up tonight, no surprises. They offered the usual mop and glo, but it wasn't obnoxious or a hard sell. We declined and were in and out in under 2 hours. Final deal was first month and tags at signing (just under $500) and $290 a month including tax. The capitalized cost after their rebates was something like $8500 off the 37k MSRP. They also paid off the VW in full (19,400 payoff).

Initial impressions of the car to follow once my wife lets me spend any significant time behind the wheel.

Mazel-Tov & Congrats on the punch. The Escape is a really nice vehicle. The Turbo sets it apart from the competition. My Father-In-Law has one (the 1.6 Turbo) and he's very happy with it. I've been in it a few times and really love the front seats. Very comfortable & supportive. Looking forward to hearing your impressions.

Thanks! Yes - the front seats are very comfortable. The only car I've driven that had better seats was the 2001 Volvo V70 that I learned to drive on.

stickguy

I know the math. Nothing I'm looking at though has real wide tires. Mostly 215 or at widest 225.

nelsonf

28firefighter said:

Well, the punch is officially in and I wished the VW a fond farewell. My wife is the proud owner of a 2015 Ford Escape Titanium with Tech Package, Moonroof, Nav and Crossbars.

By way of background for what prompted this search, my office building canceled my company's special rate for parking and as of August 1st, will be going up to the standard Seattle price of $315/month. That is simply not an amount of money I'm willing to pay for a parking space. Starting in a couple of weeks I'll be biking to work or taking the bus. We figured it made no sense to have a car sit in the garage with a payment that wouldn't be driven except on weekends, so combined with my wife's desire for an SUV, we started looking.

We originally settled on a leftover 2015 CX-5, but were soured by one dealer experience and a lack of inventory at the others. My wife saw an Escape and commented how much she liked how it looked. We drove one on Sunday and that sold her. The primary factors were the safety features (front and rear park assist, camera, BLIS, cross traffic alert) and the power from the 2.0 EcoBoost.

I submitted my numbers to three dealers locally, including what I wanted on trade (which was to break even in our payoff). One dealer bit and, after some back and forth clarification of rebates, we had a deal. Super straightforward and no messing around.

Picked it up tonight, no surprises. They offered the usual mop and glo, but it wasn't obnoxious or a hard sell. We declined and were in and out in under 2 hours. Final deal was first month and tags at signing (just under $500) and $290 a month including tax. The capitalized cost after their rebates was something like $8500 off the 37k MSRP. They also paid off the VW in full (19,400 payoff).

Initial impressions of the car to follow once my wife lets me spend any significant time behind the wheel.

Yep, parking in Seattle is a drag.

My wife works downtown and takes the bus almost every day. Lots of, ah, interesting people on the bus.

Have fun!

fezo

I'd look at the numbers on my Mazda but my daughter has it at the moment. Other daughter's 04 Camry will be ready tomorrow, all healed from the attack by the F-150 (she's all healed, too). Meanwhile, Toyota is finally taking care of the oil consumption problem in the 07 Camry. It will be either an engine rebuild or an engine replace. So my wife and I are splitting the loaner 14 Camry for a few days. Sometime next week we should have all four cars in the right hands. If I need a car to myself my mechanic says I can take his old Suburban. Very nice offer but I used it once for about 50 miles. I don't need to do that again!

Nice deal on the Escape. What color? I'm seeing a bunch of them in that deep red like my Mazda that seems to be all over the place these days.

roadburner

28firefighter said:

Well, the punch is officially in and I wished the VW a fond farewell. My wife is the proud owner of a 2015 Ford Escape Titanium with Tech Package, Moonroof, Nav and Crossbars.

By way of background for what prompted this search, my office building canceled my company's special rate for parking and as of August 1st, will be going up to the standard Seattle price of $315/month. That is simply not an amount of money I'm willing to pay for a parking space. Starting in a couple of weeks I'll be biking to work or taking the bus. We figured it made no sense to have a car sit in the garage with a payment that wouldn't be driven except on weekends, so combined with my wife's desire for an SUV, we started looking.

We originally settled on a leftover 2015 CX-5, but were soured by one dealer experience and a lack of inventory at the others. My wife saw an Escape and commented how much she liked how it looked. We drove one on Sunday and that sold her. The primary factors were the safety features (front and rear park assist, camera, BLIS, cross traffic alert) and the power from the 2.0 EcoBoost.

I submitted my numbers to three dealers locally, including what I wanted on trade (which was to break even in our payoff). One dealer bit and, after some back and forth clarification of rebates, we had a deal. Super straightforward and no messing around.

Picked it up tonight, no surprises. They offered the usual mop and glo, but it wasn't obnoxious or a hard sell. We declined and were in and out in under 2 hours. Final deal was first month and tags at signing (just under $500) and $290 a month including tax. The capitalized cost after their rebates was something like $8500 off the 37k MSRP. They also paid off the VW in full (19,400 payoff).

Initial impressions of the car to follow once my wife lets me spend any significant time behind the wheel.

Congrats!

roadburner

Don't laugh, but I dropped by my BMW dealer today and was talking with one of my friends in new car sales- he suggested that I apply for the BMW Genius job. 9 to 5 five days per week. Might give it a shot...

au1994

roadburner said:

Don't laugh, but I dropped by my BMW dealer today and was talking with one of my friends in new car sales- he suggested that I apply for the BMW Genius job. 9 to 5 five days per week. Might give it a shot...

I feel like I should know what that is but I don't.

fezo

roadburner said:

Don't laugh, but I dropped by my BMW dealer today and was talking with one of my friends in new car sales- he suggested that I apply for the BMW Genius job. 9 to 5 five days per week. Might give it a shot...

I'm just picturing you in there - "Oh, you don''t want that one. It's built after 2005.".......

qbrozen

yeah, i'm curious what that is, too. Some sort of sales advisor? Maybe I'll go apply near me. ha.


EDIT: Oh, never mind! I do not have the patience for this!
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/GeniusEverywhere.aspx

I am not known for my bedside manner when trying to explain how to use technology.

Mr_Shiftright

I'd end up hurting someone.

breld

roadburner said:

Don't laugh, but I dropped by my BMW dealer today and was talking with one of my friends in new car sales- he suggested that I apply for the BMW Genius job. 9 to 5 five days per week. Might give it a shot...

I learned about that at the recent Denver Auto Show, where I spoke to one of the "Geniuses." I have to say, he seemed less the BMW enthusiast, and more the "techie" guy. That's probably exactly what the job calls for, but it would be interesting to see what @roadburner would bring to the table from as a "true" BMW genius.

breld

@stickguy - Civic Si may be worth a test drive still. I seem to remember it feeling fairly soft for a car with sporting pretensions. And for me, that actually was a plus, since I wasn't after the hard-core sports sedan.

FWIW, my Mazda has 18" wheels and I've found it to be quite "supple" over the breaks and bumps.

breld

It would seem my tendencies are starting wear off a bit onto my older brother.

There was a time when he was almost as crazy about car swapping as I am, but that seemed to subside with his 8 year ownership of his 4Runner.

He replaced that with an Audi Allroad about 2 1/2 years ago. And now he's knee-deep in a search to replace that with a Q5. He likes the more upright stature of the SUV, and is definitely attracted to the 3.0T and TDI engines available on the Q5.

Of course, he knows who to call if he feels any remorse over his "quick" turnaround.

roadburner

We will see...

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

We will see...

Speaking of "we will see..." I seem to recall you posting an inquiry on RWTIV about the Mazda. Are you going to keep us in suspense or spill the beans?

stickguy

Stopped at my local used car place that always has nice stuff at good prices. Nothing specific right now. Had a nice chat with the guy that handles used sales (they are primarily a leading outfit). I'll be back I'm sure. Just need the right unit to pop up,

May drive the Si Friday. Adventure with the wife! Got a sorta local quote of $4,200 off MSRP (about the same as place in mass was). Waiting to hear what that converts to on a lease!

stickguy

If I do buy one, will certainly help skew the average buyer age up. Way up.

fezo

I'm at the age where if I buy a Buick I skew the average up...