Toyota Prius v. ??? (fill in the comparison)

jonnycat26

It is not right that Toyota does not give you the option to have good handling or high mileage tires off the showroom floor. I should not have to go buy new tires for a new vehicle to get good braking & handling.

I think I have some insight to share on this. I just traded in a '01 Jetta GLS with the sport suspension and the 17" tires for a 2004 Prius. In my opinion there is absolutely no comparison in the way the two vehicles feel. The Jetta has it all over the Prius in terms of feel and dynamics. There is no reason Toyota couldn't have provided better tires.

On the other hand, the windows on my Prius have yet to fall into the car's body. Nor have my engine coils needed to be replaced. Nor have any MAF or temperature sensors failed. I did need an inverter replacement, but at least that was within 300 miles. Clearly it's too early to judge reliability.

It's a shame about the handling, because Toyota does provide better and larger (16") tires on the UK version of the Prius. And rear disc brakes! I suppose Toyota feels we don't drive our cars as hard or something.

backy

Kind of interesting that in almost the same breath you quote a source saying "skinny tires prove to be the Prius' Achilles' heel in braking and cornering tests" and then complain that someone hasn't provided statistics that prove beefier tires will help braking performance. Should we discount the opinion from the source you provided, then?

I looked at C/Ds braking tests for their hybrid vs. ICE vs. diesel comparo that was mentioned earlier, and they show the Jetta with a 10-foot advantage in 70-0 braking over the Prius. So it looks like it's a mixed bag: at 60, the Prius will stop you shorter; at 70, the Jetta will. Not enough of a difference IMO to state that VWs brake better than the Prius. Since I go 70+ maybe twice a year (urban driving mostly) it's not significant for me, just as availability of Bluetooth etc. is not significant for others.

BTW, I am not biased for Toyotas; I am biased towards fairness and truth.

gagrice

Should we discount the opinion from the source you provided, then?

My source stated the problem and did not test with better tires. The only one that has come forward with information on tires is John. His experience is that the tires made it better. That is not statistical evidence. How much shorter is the stopping distance? If you are not biased why is it difficult for you to accept that the Jetta is a superior handling vehicle to the Prius. Many on this forum that have owned both verify what most of the writers conclude.

backy

I have not disputed that the Jetta is a superior handling vehicle to the Prius. I was disputing your statement a few posts ago that VWs brake better than the Prius.

Also, other contributors to the Prius discussion on Edmunds.com (and competitive boards I've visited) have commented on handling and braking improvements with the Prius, gained from changing tires. How much statistical evidence do you need?

john1701a

> You gave no statistical data to prove

How about http://michelin.com ?

> It is not right that Toyota does not give you the option

They do, though the trade-back value varies upon dealer.

> I should not have to go buy new tires for a new vehicle to get good braking & handling.

And you don't. Remember, "good" is standard. "excellent" is an option.

> Every article written on the 2004 Prius makes mention of the poor handling, especially in a cross wind

And not a single one of them ever mentioned that they were testing with proper tire inflation.

Toyota clearly documents that you must have a 2-PSI bias in front for intended handling. None of the testers have acknowledged that requirement.

JOHN

gagrice

And you don't. Remember, "good" is standard. "excellent" is an option

It sounds more like "poor" is standard and "good" is the option. I cannot believe that a dealer would deliver a car with a poor reputation for handling to a car magazine, and not explain the critical tire pressure demands of the car. This also sounds like part of a poor design. If you have to carry a compressor to make sure your tires are within a pound or two of the specs that is a real pain in the rear. Especially if it is 40 below zero when you go out in the morning.

jonnycat26

I cannot believe that a dealer would deliver a car with a poor reputation for handling to a car magazine, and not explain the critical tire pressure demands of the car. This also sounds like part of a poor design.

I believe it boils down to a poor choice of tires on the Prius. A much better choice would have been the 15" tires from the Camry (205/65) or the 16" tires from the UK version of the Prius.

daysailer

are included in this comparison, the possibilities become endless (and the discussion pointless). A majority of vehicles will demonstrate improved dynamics with better tires, not to mention other suspension or power train modifications. In the case of the Prius, any cost to modify only exacerbates its already shaky economics.

And as I've noted before, other cars have achieved BETTER performance than the Prius on some of the SAME tires with which the Prius has been OEM equipped.

gagrice

I agree with what you are saying. Most of the writers that complained about the Prius handling in a cross wind, attributed the problem to the advanced aerodynamics and not the tires.

john1701a

Goals do not change, though you have us believe they do.

Regardless of how they are achieved, the goal is still the same.

If all vehicles were made to go faster, yet the speed limit remains the same, what's the point?

Traction still falls within the average category. If you desire more, you have that option. The point is that it isn't necessary. The goal of average was already achieved.

JOHN

jonnycat26

Traction still falls within the average category. If you desire more, you have that option. The point is that it isn't necessary. The goal of average was already achieved.

I would argue it falls in the fair to average category... but shouldn't you expect at least slightly above average on a car that starts above 20K, and can easily hit 26K in it's top configurations?

gagrice

I would argue it falls in the fair to average category... but shouldn't you expect at least slightly above average on a car that starts above 20K, and can easily hit 26K in it's top configurations?

According to Edmund's a Prius with package # 9 has a TMV of $29,199. For $28,102 you can get a BMW 325i with a moonroof. It is also PZEV rated as the Prius is. The mileage won't be as good but the handling will be far, far better on the BMW. Makes you think twice before plunking your hard earned bucks on a car.

john1701a

Still in denial, eh?

Once supply caught up with demand, the classic model Prius could easily be found at base model (which was rather well loaded) with the regular price $500 below sticker.

You fear the day when that happens with the HSD version. It will end the cost argument. Seeing a Prius with a price of $19,999 readily available on the lot is what you fear most. Too bad!

You better enjoy the high prices now while you still can.

JOHN

gagrice

Seeing a Prius with a price of $19,999 readily available on the lot is what you fear most.

At $20k I would say it is a fair price for what you get. It is not a luxury automobile, yet it is priced as one. Ride and handling are more important to me than miles per gallon..

backy

I can buy a Mazda3 for under $15k that handles far better than a package 9 Prius also, but doesn't have anywhere near the features of a package 9 Prius. Nor does the $28k BMW.

If a 325i with a moonroof floats your boat, go for it!

BTW, where is the TMV for a Prius $29k? My dealer sells the Prius for $500 under MSRP, no haggling needed.

gagrice

BTW, where is the TMV for a Prius $29k? My dealer sells the Prius for $500 under MSRP, no haggling needed.

That is the TMV on Edmund's for San Diego. They show 2 grand over MSRP. You have a rare dealer that is not screwing the public on Prius sales. How many does he have on the lot?

My wife and I drove the 325i and she likes her LS400 better.

backy

I just checked and see that Edmunds has a TMV for $28.1k for a package 9 Prius in San Diego--and also in Minneapolis! Which is bunk because I checked with three dealers about buying a Prius; 2 offered the car at MSRP, the other at $500 under MSRP. So I don't know where Edmunds is getting their data, but it does not mirror reality at least in my neck of the woods.

"How many does he have on the lot?" LOL! You know very well that the Prius is in such high demand that few dealers have any "on the lot"--they are grabbed up by their new owners as soon as they come off the trucks.

How does the handling of the LS400 compare to the 325i? Does the 325i handle better? I would expect it would. If so, then why in the world would anyone want to drive a LS400? ;-)

gagrice

When my wife bought the LS400 she was still driving a Mercedes 450SL and a 928 Porsche. She did not like the handling (too squishy). Lexus had some fix for it and installed it for free. It is very solid and handles great. And of course much roomier than the 325i. Great on trips to Vegas. Always get 27MPG on the road.

As far as the difference in Price, I got $29k with some of the little things like carpet and security. $28,101 is still $2100 over MSRP. Of course CA dealers are always a rip-off. I have not bought a new car in CA since 1964. I go where I get the best price.

xcel

Hi All:

http://www.acura.com/models/model_index.asp?module=tsx

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/acura/tsx/index.html?tid=edmunds.- n.mmindex.content.num6.0.acura*

___$27 - $28K out the door fully loaded and CR’s received 35 on the highway in one … An Accord LX/EX w/ the 160 HP 4 w/ Auto is still a better overall value given its much lower initial costs, larger size, and is even more efficient. Some in the California are picking up brand new 4-door PZEV LX’s w/ Auto for $17,500 right now!

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

Are the Accord automatics going for $17,500 the ones that have already had their automatic transmissions fixed under the recall? Hopefully also Honda has addressed the issues with the brakes and interior trim quality on the current-gen Accord, as reported by Edmunds.com on their long-term test and by many other owners.

An Accord LX/EX w/ the 160 HP 4 w/ Auto is still a better overall value...

Average fuel economy for Edmunds.com's long-term test 2003 4-cylinder Accord automatic over 17,360 miles (one year): 24.1 mpg

Average fuel ecomomy for Edmunds.com's long-term test 2004 Prius (based on one month): 42.8 mpg

Annual gas cost for Accord @ $2/gallon: $1441
Annual gas cost for Prius @ $2/gallon: $811
Difference: $630

Assuming fuel costs don't increase over the next few years (big assumption), it would take about six years to recoup the initial price difference between the Accord and Prius--not including factors like the Federal tax deduction on the Prius.

tempusvn

Don't forget that the TSX requires Premium Fuel?

Also, the TSX is based on the smaller European Accord. If you want to do same size comparisons with Acura, you need the TL.

So yeah, the Accord is definitely a better value than the TSX. No arguement there.

I went and looked at the Accord LX.

I couldn't find where you could add any options, maybe I missed it. But the one you are apparently talking about at that price:

Has Steel Wheels with Wheel Covers
Doesn't have Traction Control
No Automatic Climate Control (including humidity sensor)
No Trip Computer
No Freeze Warning indicator
No Exterior Temperature Indicator
Less Steering Wheel Controls (No Climate and Audio on the Steering Wheel)
No Engine Immobilizer
No Heated Mirrors
Less Rear Leg Room
No Hatch and less cargo capacity
Only has 2 Rear Headrests

I can't tell if it has HSEA Glass

It apparently doesn't come with 3 Years Roadside Assistance.

It doesn't say what the cloth seats are, but I'm guessing they aren't Alcantara.

On the other hand it does have a Telescoping Steering Wheel, Driver Seat Height Adjustment (Manual), a Tachometer, a Locking Glove Box, and Floor Mats.

It also apparently has 8 cup holders to the Prius' 6.

On a feature for feature basis that $17.5K Accord compared to the $20K Prius looks about right. You don't get what you don't pay for.

I don't know what it would take to trick an Accord out to be truely comparable, but clearly more than $17.5K. I suspect just Alloy Wheels, Traction Control and Climate Control would bump it up to the $20K range.

Oh, while I don't doubt some folks may get year end Accords for that price, have to get them off the lot after all, Edmunds lists the TMV for the LX at $18,640

xcel

Hi Backy:

___You didn’t pick up on the Acura? I know most are forced to pick up Package 9’s for $27,500 + as of late. Hopefully that problem will go away in just a few months?

___Yes, they are Auto’s.

Accord LX – 2.4 w/ Auto (Edmunds)

Pros: Tight build quality, quiet cabin, refined and powerful engines, reputation for quality and durability, high crash test scores.

Cons: Tepid handling doesn't match up to the 240-hp V6's promise of driving excitement.

Prius II (Edmunds)

Pros: Outstanding mileage, ultralow emissions, hatchback utility, reasonable price, excellent build quality.

Cons: Less power and room than other midsize sedans, center-mounted gauges not intuitive.

Edmunds TCO: Accord $0.38/mile - Prius II $0.41/mile

___Tempusvn, good point about the sizing. The TSX and Accord are the same and both are smaller. As for Premium in the Acura, it is recommended, not required. I know what one can pick up an Accord LX/EX for both here and in California as I was just there (CA.) 2 weeks ago but the Prius II? In terms of what you gain or miss, the Prius offers the fuel economy, the Accord and TSX offer performance and handling.

NHTSA Crash ratings: Front D&P/Side F&R/Rollover:

TSX: 5 – 5 – 5 – 4 – 4
Accord: 5 – 5 – 4 – 5 – 5
Prius II: 5 – 4 – 4 – 4 – 4

___TMV doesn’t make much sense when you cannot pick a Prius II up? Maybe in a few months given Toyota’s promise to increase production another 50% the other day.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

xcel

Hi Tempusvn:

___The Euro Accord that is given I look at the iCDTi all the time (I drool for it anyway ;-)). The American Accord is a bit larger at 102.7 – 14 Cu. ft. respectively.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

Forced to pick up a package 9? Not in my area. Less than half the Prius are package 9s last time I checked. But the package 9s do seem to be the most popular. (People do love their toys I guess.) Check out the prices on eBay for even used package 9s--way over list. The lesser packages don't seem to draw as big a demand--as I know from personal experience.

It is interesting that Edmunds.com praises the Accord's build quality and reputation for reliability while hundreds of thousands have been recalled for automatic transmission problems and their own long-term test pointed out problems with interior trim, windows, and brakes. No argument though, it is a fine family car. There is a reason hundreds of thousands are sold every year. As CR says, the Accord is one of the best all-around performers among family cars. They also recommend only one family car "if fuel economy is important": Prius.

xcel

Hi Backy:

Then, the Chicago Region started loading up on package 9s, to the point where they were shipping no package 3s at all to dealerships early in the year. When they started to arrive again, in May, it was only 25% of all units.

___Didn’t you post the above just 2 weeks ago? If it isn’t package 9’s that are arriving in quantity, what Prius II can you purchase tomorrow morning without a premium to match if not go beyond what a package 9 costs in the first place? Does you local Toyota dealer have a stock of lesser optioned Prius II’s now?

___It was not that long ago Toyota had some problems with their Camry and a sludge issue IIRC? It was fixed and then they moved on just as Honda appears to have done with the 04’s. Didn’t the Prius I have an improperly designed steering rack as well?

___As for CR’s commentary, if that is all the Prius offers according to CR’s, maybe they aren’t recommending it for anything else? Fortunately, I am sure they found more praise of the automobile then what you pointed out.

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

You have assumed--wrongly--that the dealers in my area getting only package 3s and 9s.

As for Prius Is, I thought we were discussing current models here. The Accord transmission recall, and the problems with brakes and trim, affect the current-generation Accord. Whatever problems the Prius I had are history.

Yes, CR recommended the Prius for much more than fuel economy. In fact, it was their top pick in their five-car comparo in the family car class in their May issue. I was pointing out that for people who want high fuel economy, CR recommends only one family car: the Prius. They highlighted the Prius' "excellent fuel economy with competitive acceleration, ride comfort, handling, and hatchback versatility."

xcel

Hi Backy:

___I made assumptions given your post. With that, what is the split in packages around the country anyway?

___As for the Accord, you do understand the difference between an 03, 04, and soon to be released 05 MY automobiles of whatever type I hope? Do you really think Honda is shipping brand new 04 Accords with the recalled part(s) installed in the tranny only to recall them again in a few months and extend the warranties today? I believe the ECU or one of the O2 sensors (guess?) of the Prius’ coming off the line today are different then those produced just 6 months ago to cure the CEL problem(s) they were having? This is as you say, history.

___In regards to CR’s Prius review, how does the Prius’ competitive acceleration, ride comfort, and handling compare to that of the 04 Honda Accord? The only tested models I read about in the CR review were the Malibu, Stratus, and Galant w/ the Verona thrown in for good measure. Here is what one of the CR’s senior directors had to say:
  
"The 2004 version of the Prius is a considerable step up from the first generation, with a spacious interior, quicker acceleration, improved gas mileage, and cleaner emissions, all for about the same price," stated David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports Auto Test facility in East Haddam, Connecticut. "However, if your needs require a well-rounded family sedan, there are several models, including the 4-cylinder versions of the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Mazda6 and Nissan Altima, that have scored better overall in our tests and are similarly priced."

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

I didn't make assumptions in my post--I stated facts as they were at the time of the post. I'm sure someone at Toyota can help you with your question about package allocations around the country, if you are seriously interested in knowing what they are.

CR did not specify that their comment about "competitive" acceleration, ride comfort, and handling applies only to the four other cars reviewed in the May issue. Since the context of the comment was in a comparison of all family cars they have reviewed, it makes sense that the comment applies to the entire class--including the Accord.

Actually, CR's May issue clearly shows the Altima 4-cylinder version scoring lower overall than the Prius. Maybe Mr. Champion should read his own magazine. ;-)

To paraphrase CR's review in May: If fuel economy is not important to you, there are better choices than the Prius in the family car class. If fuel economy is important to you, the one best choice in the family car class is the Prius.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___What facts? Is Chicago still receiving 75% package 9’s and 0% package 3’s, 50% package 9’s and 25% package 3’s, or something else? It sounds like you know more about the allocation then most here. My local Toyota dealer was placing future purchasers on package 9 lists at MSRP + forced add-ons the last time I was there. That was quite a few months ago however. You should be able to pick up what you want like you can with the Accord DX, LX, EX, LX V6, EX w/ leather, NAVI, and or V6 this morning or afternoon.

CR did not specify that their comment about "competitive" acceleration, ride comfort, and handling applies only to the four other cars reviewed in the May issue. Since the context of the comment was in a comparison of all family cars they have reviewed, it makes sense that the comment applies to the entire class--including the Accord.

___Does the Prius offer competitive acceleration, ride comfort, and handling vs. the Accord? If so, maybe Honda should use the Civic’s 1.7 L ICE and much less expensive Torsion beam rear suspension in the Accord. Toyota should do the same to the Camry to make even more money? I wonder why they don’t?

___If fuel economy were your ultimate goal, I can’t fault you but if fuel economy to save $’s is your criteria, you can save quite a bit more by purchasing a Camry or Accord plus enjoy its greater attributes including a lower TCO and drive it for free for at least 75,000 + miles.

___Wayne R. Gerdes

gagrice

Here is a good article on very clean cars for our environment. You don't have to be held up getting a Prius to attain ultra low emissions. You can be a friend to our environment without buying an overpriced hybrid.

http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features1

john1701a

>... to attain ultra low emissions

Again with the vague... There are over 90 vehicles available today that achieve "ultra low emissions". They have an ULEV rating.

SULEV, is the clean rating that actually helps protect our environment. It is over 72 percent cleaner than ULEV.

PZEV, is even better. It reduces evaporative emissions too, not just the type that come out of the tailpipe.

Prius is PZEV rated, and it receives a 0.3 emissions credit. That's higher than all those non-hybrid vehicles, which only get a 0.2 emission credit.

Prius is also available nationwide. The only non-hybrid that can also claim that is Focus. You are out of luck if you want the 16 others. But Focus just gets half the MPG of Prius, so there isn't any contest if you want to reduce *BOTH* emissions and consumption.

JOHN

xcel

Hi John1701a:

Prius is PZEV rated, and it receives a 0.3 emissions credit. That's higher than all those non-hybrid vehicles, which only get a 0.2 emission credit.

___Remember USBseawolf2000’s total emissions graph posted 2 or 3 times in the Edmunds forums? The Prius II up against any std. ICE PZEV pollutes far more overall.

Prius is also available nationwide. The only non-hybrid that can also claim that is Focus. You are out of luck if you want the 16 others. But Focus just gets half the MPG of Prius, so there isn't any contest if you want to reduce *BOTH* emissions and consumption.

___In regards to other non-Hybrid PZEV’s, you can pick up a PZEV Accord but you might have to drive for it depending on where you live. Is that better then waiting 6 + months for a Prius II and in some cases driving for it? And you can pick up a Focus PZEV for less then half of the amount you paid for the Prius II.

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

I stopped checking on Prius allocations to my area awhile ago. I've told you what I knew back then, but it's old information now. If you want current package allocations for the Prius, you'll need to find out someplace else.

As for TCO, let's compare the TCO of an Accord DX to a Prius. I'll bet it's better than that of an Accord LX because of lower initial cost. We might as well do that because the LX pales in comparison to the Prius in feature content, so what does it matter if we compare the DX, with even fewer features, to the Prius? If you want to do a more even-up comparison between the Accord and Prius, using the EX automatic with side curtains would be more appropriate. The TCO difference is a whopping $490 over five years--about the value of the tax deduction on the Prius. And that doesn't account for any increases in the price of gas over the next five years. So it's even-up cost-wise--pick which one you like best.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___Most then are forced into package 9’s according to what was available in my area.

___TCO’s are posted on Edmunds and the Prius II costs more. The Accord has better acceleration, ride comfort, and handling unless you have other information to disprove this?

Accord DX w/ Auto: $0.35/mile
Accord LX w/ Auto and side air bags: $0.38/mile
Accord EX w/ Auto and side air bags: $0.40/mile

Prius II: $0.41/mile
Prius II - Package 9: Higher.
Prius II – Package 9 + dealer add-ons: Highest

___The EX has a bit more features including 16” alloys, Power sunroof, 4-wheel discs, 4-wheel independent suspension, 2-way power driver seat, power seat height + lumbar adjustments, tilt & Telescopic, AM/FM 6 disc CD, but it is more expensive.

___The Clean Fuel tax deduction is worth $420.00 to someone in a 28% bracket for another 4 months. This is less then half the difference in state taxes between an Accord LX and a stripped Prius II even though the bottom Prius II is not available in my locale.

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

If the DX and LX Accord have all the features you want, yes, you can save money over five years going that way vs. a Prius. But since you yourself quoted from CR's comparisons of other family cars to the Prius, and that comparison included the Accord EX rather than the DX or LX, perhaps we should compare those cars since they are more comparable in equipment levels.

True, the Accord EX has some additional features compared to the Prius with package 2. But I don't see how 16" vs. 15" alloy wheels is significant, nor the independent rear suspension, nor the 4-wheel disc brakes on the Accord, since the Prius handles and rides competitively with the Accord with its (the Prius') smaller wheels and actually outbrakes the Accord EX (125 feet vs. 139 feet 60-0 per Motor Trend). And of course the Prius has features not found on the Accord EX, including:

Traction Control
Automatic Climate Control
Trip Computer
Freeze Warning indicator
Exterior Temperature Indicator
Climate Controls on the Steering Wheel
Heated Mirrors
More Rear Leg Room
3 rear seat headrests
Humongous center console (lot of storage)
Hatchback versatility (and more cargo capacity)

So it's a matter of choosing which features are more important to you, as TCO is a wash. As you pointed out, the Prius' tax deduction is worth $420 to someone in the 28% tax bracket, so deduct that from the $490 difference in TCO values and it's now a whopping $70 advantage to the Accord EX over five years. How fast will that little advantage disappear if gas prices go up in the next few years?

Before you go comparing the package 9 Prius to the Accord, be sure to account for all the features of the package 9 Prius--some of which are not available in an Accord at any price.

Interesting too that the family cars that CR has rated better overall compared to the Prius languish on dealer lots, with huge discounts available, while dealers cannot get enough of the Prius. It looks like consumers are indicating that fuel economy is an important buying criterion for them, and they are taking CR's advice to get a Prius. Good thing for them that production of the Prius will be increasing.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___In regards to languishing on dealers lots, doesn’t the Prius II have only 10% of an Accords yearly sales? What would happen if there were 400,000 Prius II’s available this year? You would probably see $2,000 rebates on them.

___Since the Accord DX/LX are better values, it appears as if they win hands down. Even the EX costs less to drive/operate according to Edmunds and it does include much that the Prius II does not. Especially when it comes to suspension, braking, handling, and ride comfort.

___16” wheels offer a better ride. Here is some discussion on the Torsion beam of the Echo, Corolla, and Prius and the independent Multi-link of the Accord as seen at the following:

http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/tech_index.htm

Torsion beam suspension: In fact, torsion beam suspension is only half-independent - there is a torsion beam connecting both wheels together, which allows limited degree of freedom when forced. For some less demanding compact cars, this saves the anti-roll bars. On the contrary, it doesn't provide the same level of ride and handling as double wishbones or multi-link suspensions

Advantage: Compact and Cheap
Disadvantage: Theoretically inferior ride and handling.
Who uses it: Most European mini cars up to Golf-class.
 
Multi-link suspension: It is too early to say whether multi-link suspension offer handling on a par with double wishbones. Most sports cars and all the best racing cars still use double wishbones. Only Porsche 993 and 996, Nissan Skyline GT-R etc. chose multi-link instead. However, it seems that multi-link can offer better compromise between handling and space efficiency, as more and more sedans adopt it. Honda, which used to be a loyal supporter of double wishbones, shifted to multi-link setup in the latest Accord could be an evidence.

Advantage: Good handling and ride.
Disadvantage: Not as cheap and as compact as MacPherson and Torsion beam.
Who uses it: Mid-size to luxurious sedans.

___This is why an independent rear suspension is better and the reason you find it in Accords and Camry’s on up.

___If you are comparing the Prius package 9, you may as well compare it to the Accord EX w/ Leather and NAVI which is still less expensive and should have a lower TCO. In terms of size, performance, handling, and comfort, the Accord should have it all over the Prius II given the Prius II still uses the Echo and Corolla underpinnings and is not known to handle well with body roll being its Achilles heel.

___Overall with the Prius II being more costly to own and operate vs. the Accord DX, LX, and EX (according to Edmunds) even with its EPA rated higher fuel economy, it gives the purchaser much poorer acceleration, less ride comfort, lesser handling, and even more overall emissions vs. the PZEV Accord. This does not include the unknowns of ownership 5 - 10 years down the line. Where does that place it (the Prius II) in the Prius II vs. Accord question?

___Wayne R. Gerdes

backy

A DX or LX Accord "wins hands down" only if it is an acceptable alternative to a Prius. If you like rolling your own windows on the DX, for example, or don't live in an area (like Minnesota) where traction control is very handy several months out of the year, and you don't need the versatility of a hatchback, then maybe the Accord DX or LX, or even the EX, is the best choice. To categorically state that the Accord "wins hands down" is presumptuous IMO. If the Accord "won hands down," we wouldn't have thousands of people on waiting lists for the Prius and thousands of Accords sitting on dealer lots with huge discounts, would we? All those Prius-owner-wannabes would run out and get an Accord and save all that cash (about 4 cents per day, on the EX).

As for the techobabble about the benefits of independent rear suspensions, I guess we could talk about the benefits of the advanced drivetrain in the Prius compared to the old-technology ICE engine + auto tranny in the Accord. Since the technology in the Prius' drivetrain is much more advanced than the Accord's, it makes the Prius a much better car, right? Or maybe what really matters is how the car performs. And the Prius performs quite well--competitively with the Accord EX, according to the CR source we both have quoted. The Accord 4-cylinder automatic accelerates faster (8.5 0-60 vs. 9.8 per MT) and corners a bit better (59.7 mpg slalom vs. 58.6) than the Prius. The Prius brakes better (noted earlier) and has much higher fuel economy. It doesn't appear that the Accord's more advanced rear suspension and brakes give it much of a real-world advantage, do they? Recall the passage you quoted from Edmunds.com where they noted a "Con" of the Accord EX being the handling. You do get a quicker car 0-60, but pay the price at the pump for that advantage. Choose what is more important to you. Or plop down your $27k+ this fall for an Accord Hybrid, and get both strong acceleration and compact-style fuel economy.

As for your summation, you are entitled to your opinion. But in the opinion of professional car evaluators, the Prius' ride comfort is one of its strong points. Handling is "competitive" with that of the Accord and all other cars in its class. Its fuel economy is not just "EPA rated higher", it's much higher in the real world (e.g. Edmund's measurement of 24.1 for the Accord, 42.8 for the Prius; CR measured 44 overall for the Prius). I don't understand how a PZEV vehicle that burns much more fuel per mile than the AT-PZEV Prius can have lower overall emissions than a Prius, but perhaps you will explain it for us. As for unknowns of ownership 5-10 years down the line, you are correct, there are many unknowns, such as, when will Honda have another massive recall on the Accord like the auto transmission recall? Prius owners know at least that their powertrains are warranted for 5 years/60,000 miles, and the hybrid technology is warranted for at least 8 years/100,000 miles, and 10 years/150,000 miles in some states. With the Accord, it's "good luck" to owners after only 3 years/36,000 miles, unless they pay for an extended warranty. What would that do to the TCO equation? And let's not forget the "unknown" of gas prices. We've had a taste recently what can happen there.

xcel

Hi Backy:

___Did you not say, “If the DX and LX Accord have all the features you want, yes, you can save money over five years going that way vs. a Prius.”? If so, it looks like you wouldn’t save any money with the Prius II vs. the Accord DX or LX even after considering its fuel economy. The EX is cheaper as shown as well. If there were only 47,000 Honda Accords available for those 400,000 Accord purchasers, what would the supply demand curve look like vs. the 70,000 possible Prius purchasers for 47,000 Prius’?

___Traction Control only comes on the Accord V6’s unfortunately. How long have you been driving in Mn. and how did you drive before traction control was made available on any car?

Since the technology in the Prius' drivetrain is much more advanced than the Accord's, it makes the Prius a much better car, right? Or maybe what really matters is how the car performs.

___Or is it a problem when the pack runs down, the inverter needs replacement, or some other item in the dual power drivetrain breaks before or after warranty?

And the Prius performs quite well--competitively with the Accord EX, according to the CR source we both have quoted. The Accord 4-cylinder automatic accelerates faster (8.5 0-60 vs. 9.8 per MT)

___And the Prius II running 0 – 60 mph according to AutoWeek in 10.56, Automobiles 10.7, MT’s 10.2 (May 04), MSN’s 11.43 seconds. How about C&D’s 14.9 seconds with a semi-drained pack? The Accord is an 8 second car, the Prius is a 10 second car at best, a 14.9 second car at its worst.

and corners a bit better (59.7 mpg slalom vs. 58.6) than the Prius.

___Yes, a larger car and it handles better.

The Prius brakes better (noted earlier) and has much higher fuel economy. It doesn't appear that the Accord's more advanced rear suspension and brakes give it much of a real-world advantage, do they?

___Since the Accord has a better ride and handling in the real world, where does that leave the Prius II?

Recall the passage you quoted from Edmunds.com where they noted a "Con" of the Accord EX being the handling. You do get a quicker car 0-60, but pay the price at the pump for that advantage. Choose what is more important to you.

___Since we are comparing handling of the Prius II to the Accord which handles better for a smaller initial and overall cost, where does that leave the Prius II even after considering its higher fuel economy in the TCO equation? Fuel economy is a part of TCO and the Prius II’s $0.41 is a bit higher then the Accord DX, LX, and EX and the Prius II is a lower performing and more polluting automobile.

Its fuel economy is not just "EPA rated higher", it's much higher in the real world (e.g. Edmund's measurement of 24.1 for the Accord, 42.8 for the Prius; CR measured 44 overall for the Prius).

___CR’s 38 for the Accord and 44 for the Prius II on the highway in particular. Edmunds TCO is based off EPA estimates:

Fuel

This expense is based on EPA mileage figures, assuming consumption consists of two-thirds highway and one-third city driving, and that the vehicle has an automatic transmission unless automatic is not available. Cost estimates are based on self-service prices, using an average mix of two-thirds regular grade and one-third mid-grade gasoline; premium gasoline for vehicles whose manufacturers recommend premium grade; or diesel fuel for diesel models.

___That gives the Accord an estimate of 30.6 and the Prius 53 mpg. CR’s received 6.5 less for the Accord and 9 less for the Prius II. The TCO is even higher for the Prius II with real world estimates then.

I don't understand how a PZEV vehicle that burns much more fuel per mile than the AT-PZEV Prius can have lower overall emissions than a Prius, but perhaps you will explain it for us.

___Because the Prius II causes so much more pollution during its manufacture then the PZEV based Accord. See the 2004 Prius forum for more information.

As for unknowns of ownership 5-10 years down the line, you are correct, there are many unknowns, such as, when will Honda have another massive recall on the Accord like the auto transmission recall?

___When has anyone ever paid for a recall and how do you know there will not be a recall for the Prius II? John1701a said of the upcoming 01-03 Prius recall/TSB: “And there is no rush because it doesn't occur until late in the battery life. So it will still take awhile before any owner here even comes close to that time.” This is for the leaking battery pack cells and a harness replacement of some kind? How about the 01-02 Prius’ power steering rack extended warranty after that recall?

___As for warranties, since the TMV is used in the Edmunds TCO and I can pick up an Accord for $500 - $700 less today, I can afford a nice little Honda warranty and still have the same TCO as that shown on Edmunds.

___Almost every review of the Prius II has commented on its squirrelly handling in cross winds for whatever reasons. I have never read the same of the Accord.

___With the above, how does the Prius II with lesser handling, lesser acceleration, lesser ride comfort, smaller size, higher overall emissions, and higher TCO even after including its EPA estimated fuel economy (not real world fuel economy), compete aginst the Accord DX, LX, and EX?

___Wayne R. Gerdes

john1701a

Wayne,

We are well aware of your SHORT-TERM perspective that heavily favors TCO and does not support the goal of reducing *BOTH* emissions & consumption.

My question to you is why is the Accord you vehicle of choice now? What happened to Corolla and Focus?

Also, would you please refrain for "lesser", and "smaller", and "higher" references. Use actual numeric values instead if you want to keep the discussions constructive.

Lastly, your use "Prius II" to describe the third-generation of Prius is extraordinarily misleading. In fact, in your previous post you merged the "original" Prius and "classic" Prius into a single category when referencing the battery-pack. Those 2 designs have virtually nothing in common. Please use an accurate identifier.

JOHN

gagrice

Lastly, your use "Prius II" to describe the third-generation of Prius is extraordinarily misleading

Why do you continue to try and mislead the posters on this forum? Has Toyota made you the official "Last word" on what is and is not the truth about the Prius? I find Wayne's use of Prius II as mainstream thinking. You seem to be the only one off course in your thinking. Maybe you should write Bill Gates and tell him that MSN is full of crap like you tell those on this forum. Notice I use references to back up what I say. Something you fail to do. I must insist you give references to back up your outrageous claims in the future.

The Prius is Toyota’s gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle and was the first mass-produced gasoline/electric hybrid when it went on sale in 1997 in Japan. The Prius went on sale in the U.S. in 2000 and the second-generation Prius debuts as a 2004 model.

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/overview.aspx?make=Toyota&m- - odel=Prius&src=

gagrice

More reference substantiating the fact that the Prius II is the 2004 model with no design changes planned for 2005
April 16, 2003 - Toyota introduces second-generation 2004 Prius at the New York Auto Show. Its new, breakthrough electric/gas Hybrid Synergy Drive system has five key advantages over current hybrids - more power, better mileage, super-ultra-low emissions and it's more compact and adaptable to a wider variety of vehicles.

http://www.corolland.com/prius/chronology.html

backy

Rather than continue what promises to be an endless thread, and ask questions that will prolong the thread such as how you have determined the potential U.S. market for the Prius is 70,000 people, I will sum up my opinion and move on. The main difference between us in this discussion is that I am willing to accept other points of view and recognize that not one car fits the needs of all people. The Accord 4-cylinder is a fine family car and has certain advantages over the Prius, e.g. faster acceleration, a little better handling, and availability of certain features and options not found on the Prius like moonroof and adjustable driver's seat. The Prius has the main advantages of higher fuel economy, longer powertrain warranty (with a very long warranty on the hybrid components), lower actual emissions from driving the car (especially considering the Prius delivers its low emissions in all states, while the PZEV Accord is available in only a few states and burns about 43% more fuel than the Prius), hatchback versatility, and availability of certain features not available on the Accord, such as traction control, automatic climate control, Bluetooth, and Smart Entry & Start.

As for TCO, the lesser-content Accord models (DX and LX) have an advantage for people who fit the Edmunds.com TCO profile. The EX's advantage over the Prius is so slight (about $70 over five years according to Edmund's TCO and including the Prius' tax deduction) to make it negligible in terms of a car-buying decision. Also, consider that until the day you sell the car to someone else, the Prius puts over $2500 more in your pocket during the years of ownership than does the Accord EX. So in fact the Accord, at least in well-equipped EX trim, does not offer lower up front cost, nor does it offer lower costs during the term of ownership, but it does make up for that disparity quite nicely with its historically high resale value.

P.S. You are mistaken about CR's measured fuel economy on the Prius. They measured 44 mpg overall, and 50 on the highway in their review in May 2004. Also, there is about a 1% difference between using the EPA's ratings for the Accord and Prius vs. using real-world numbers such as those attained by Edmunds.com on their long-term tests of the cars. Whether that is significant can be determined by buyers.

john1701a

Choosing the american-only mainstream press as the level of detail you wish to address is intentionally short-changing yourself, leaving discussions wide open for misunderstandings.

Both those with the engineering perspectives and those acknowledging the worldwide production are well aware of the fact that the "original" models have too little in common to be grouped in the same category as the "classic" models... especially since there was a year lag with the upgrade in some countries, including Japan itself.

Too much was changed between those two models to be considered the same.

I'm not for promoting deception. So I will not conform to what our local press is pushing.

If you truly believe it is appropriate to group all those changes together, please explain why... since the next upgrade will very likely cause confusion. Changing definitions to fit your need isn't appropriate. Choose and stick to it. What will make the next upgrade be considered a "generation" or just ignored like those are doing for all of the differences between original & classic.

Then... step back and ask yourself if the criteria you defined fits into the design strategy for the other automakers. Hmm?

JOHN

shado4

Too much detail can be a bad thing, John. You are making discussions way too overly complicated by demanding precise explanations. That really only ends up confusing the issue because not everyone agrees with your interpretation of the discussion. You wrote "Changing definitions to fit your need isn't appropriate", but isn't this exactly what you are doing? You do the same thing by trying to force the issue of "suburb" driving mileage, when no such classification actually exists. You made it up and want everyone to differentiate between it, city and highway. Why?

Why not look at the Prius this way...Prius I was the four door sedan, Prius II is the current 5 door hatchback.

Simple, elegant; something that everyone can understand!

john1701a

> You do the same thing by trying to force the issue of "suburb" driving mileage, when no such classification actually exists. You made it up and want everyone to differentiate between it, city and highway. Why?

That's a great example!

Neither "city" nor "highway" have ever really been accurate. They have lead to oversimplification misunderstandings for years. And now with the advent of hybrids, the problem grows even worse.

I promote "suburb" because it fills in that piece of the puzzle that has always been missing. I'm not the one that created it.

It's importance is quite clear in the latest issue of "Car & Driver". They very specifically listed that category in the tests they performed.

Not acknowledging it would be ignoring data, forcing it to conform to pre-existing criteria rather than accepting it as it really is.

Sorry about the detail adding a level of complexity to the discussions, but you just plain cannot make generalizations and still remain objective.

JOHN

xcel

Hi John1701a:

We are well aware of your SHORT-TERM perspective that heavily favors TCO and does not support the goal of reducing *BOTH* emissions & consumption.

___Edmunds TCO is based on 5 years out. I do not know how long the average buyer holds onto their new automobile but both you and I have traded in or sold past used vehicles in less then 5 years. Is that short term enough for you? The emissions issue is upside down for the Prius II given the emissions emitted to build it in comparison to a std. ICE.

My question to you is why is the Accord you vehicle of choice now? What happened to Corolla and Focus?

___I am just interested in cars. My Corolla LE although an 03 has a much lower TCO and this is while receiving within 16% of what you are receiving in your Prius II even after the wife and kids have had their few thousands of miles behind the wheel. It is too bad I couldn’t have waited another year as you did to pick up VSC, TRAC, Side curtains, and TPS in the Corolla. Did the title of the thread say something about a particular brand or model vs. the Prius?

Also, would you please refrain for "lesser", and "smaller", and "higher" references. Use actual numeric values instead if you want to keep the discussions constructive.

___Handling has already been posted. Smaller? Do you really need to know an Accord has 102.7 cu. ft. of passenger room vs. the Prius II’s 96.2. Total volume of 116.7 cu. ft. for the Accord vs. 112.3? Higher emissions of the Prius II? You know what graph is posted and the PZEV Accord will output far less then the Prius II.

Lastly, your use "Prius II" to describe the third-generation of Prius is extraordinarily misleading.

___Given you know which Prius I am speaking of, Backy knows which Prius I am speaking of, and everyone else knows which Prius I am speaking of, did you lose something in translation? The title of the thread is Toyota Prius v. ???. We already know the Prius I couldn’t hold its own up against an Echo, let alone an Accord so maybe you should have Sylvia change it? On top of all this, I believe you call the older Prius a “Classic”? Which classic is it, the Japanese available version or the American one? You entire Prius website will need to be redone so that most can differentiate given your vague postings if this is the case. What a useless paragraph you posted if I do say so myself.

___Backy, I believe I have read there was a 30,000 person waiting list for the Prius II. Add that to the 47,000 + Prius II’s to be delivered this year (not including the hopefully 50% increase in production?) should bring you ~ 70,000 Prius II’s. This is a far cry from the ~ 400,000 Accords that are delivered on a yearly basis.

___As for more fuel, Edmunds TCO already includes a rather generous Prius II cost for fuel knowing most according to CR, Edmunds, and most anyone else for that matter are receiving far less then those EPA estimates the TCO number is based on. It costs more to purchase, maintain, and fuel the Prius II overall given Edmunds TCO then the Accord DX, LX, and even the much higher content equipped EX.

P.S. You are mistaken about CR's measured fuel economy on the Prius. They measured 44 mpg overall, and 50 on the highway in their review in May 2004.

___CR’s measured 50 on the highway but received 44 overall? That means what, 38 in the city? 38 in the non-City? 38 in everything else but the city while driving the exact amount of miles as highway they encountered?

___To conclude given the title of the thread, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?

___Wayne R. Gerdes

gagrice

Choosing the american-only mainstream press as the level of detail you wish to address is intentionally short-changing yourself, leaving discussions wide open for misunderstandings.

I choose the American media to be fair. You cannot make a fair case using European tests as the vehicles they have and test are not the same as we are sold in the USA. In the case of the 2004 Prius tested in Europe. It has the larger wheels and additional airbag protection. The NHTSA tests give only 4 stars for passenger protection because that is what you get in the USA. If you move to Europe and buy a Prius you get 5 stars for your passenger. However I think with all the additional choices in cars you may not want a Prius over there.

As for the 2nd generation of Prius, it came about when they built the new platform with HSD which included the current hatchback body style. Many changes and modifications can go into a single generation of a given vehicle. You may not see a third generation Prius for 10 years if this one is a winner for Toyota.

john1701a

> What a useless paragraph you posted if I do say so myself.

You know quite well the "Prius II" label was very misleading from the beginning. Insulting me won't correct that error.

JOHN

xcel

Hi John1701a:

___It sounds like you are trying to take this thread personally given you are the only person who doesn’t know which Prius anyone is speaking of or which Prius is to be compared against anything else? What is a Prius Classic anyway?

___With that, your particular paragraph was completely useless in regards to the Prius vs. Accord or anything else for that matter. I hope you will consider sticking to the facts or topic in the future. Just a suggestion is all …

___And in conclusion as well as back on topic, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?

___Wayne R. Gerdes

jonnycat26

And in conclusion as well as back on topic, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?

I'll handle this one. I was looking at an Accord EX 4cyl Auto, and to get one with the navigation system and a few extras that would get it close to the cost of the Prius, it was 26,400... which is clearly more than a Package 9. And some of the stuff that I love about the Prius (bluetooth) just isn't available in the Accord.

Having driven both, I can tell you the Accord is not much faster than the Prius, and perhaps a bit slower when it comes to passing. It does handle better, and braking seems to be about the same.

In my state, I don't think they offer the PZEV Accord. So for cleanliness and tech, the Prius was it.