Don't worry. I find it rather entertaining that ACCORD is now the "vehicle of choice". Previously, it was FOCUS. Before that, it was INSIGHT. And before that, it was COROLLA.
___PZEV Focus only lost big on the TCO although it does cost less then 50% of the Prius II albeit being larger, faster, better handling, less polluting, and can be more luxuriously equipped by many measures.
___The Honda Insight? The only item the Insight has all over the Prius II is that I paid about 37% of what you did and receive almost double the fuel economy? You must love driving back and forth to work by yourself sucking down fuel at a rate just a bit under the Corolla. You remember her right? Faster yet uses the same to similar underpinnings and costs $12,000 less money? It certainly doesn’t have the amenities but with a lmpg of ~ 5 mpg less when I drive then your Prius II and $12,000 in the bank, she makes a great commuter for many that cannot afford or are willing to wait for a Prius II?
___And the Accord? Wow. It has so many advantages over and above the Prius II. From every post, you haven’t seen any advantage in any automobile compared to the Prius II and especially the Accord EX for any and all reasons.
That really makes me wonder which vehicle will be next and how soon that abrupt change to argue in favor of something else will come.
___If I find another automobile that is better then the Prius II, I will post about it as well given what the Prius lacks in performance in particular. I can’t help the Toyota made the Prius II slower then a Toyota Echo, much smaller then a Toyota Camry, yet charge as much as a lower end Toyota Avalon but in doing so, they opened the Prius II up for a ton of great comparisons.
___Overall, I haven’t seen you add much to this thread other then your term of “Vague” even after a fact or fact(s) are posted. Is there any item or aspect that the Focus, Insight, Corolla, or Accord have over a Prius II or are they all inferior in every respect? I cannot wait for this reply ;-)
___And with all of the above, when the Corolla or Camry Hybrid is available that has the same or similar performance as that of the 4 w/ Auto and can be purchased for just $2,000 premium, then Hybrid’s will take over. Unfortunately if this scenario does come about, I don’t know where the Prius II will fit? With an ~ $7K premium for the Escape HEV over its 4 cyl. brethren and a rumored $7K for the RXh over the RX, those won’t fly in big enough numbers to make any difference either imho.
Be careful Wayne, His ex-governor can whip your governor's butt... Although I doubt that Jesse would fit in a Prius. Probably drives a Hummer like our Gov.....
You are guilty of "vague" in that very post. I see "lacks" and "slower" and "smaller" and "lower" references with no numerics whatsoever for comparisons or to even establish a frame-of-reference.
The real point is that Prius is a specialized vehicle, the showcase for HSD. So naturally, it isn't going to fit the mold. It quite simply was never intended to.
And since the automotive market is rapidly changing right now, much of the comments posted here recently will have to be seriously reexamined in just a few years. HSD would have improved (price, availability, configuration, etc.) and virtually nothing would have changed with the traditional vehicles (they are already at their apex).
you are guilty of "vague" in that very post. I see "lacks" and "slower" and "smaller" and "lower" references with no numerics whatsoever for comparisons or to even establish a frame-of-reference.,
___That is a laugh. You haven’t provided anything yet I do provide volumes in exact cu. ft, prices in both TCO and initial cost $’s, performance from 0 - 60 in seconds as measured by any number of car mags, fuel economy figures and car scoring as posted by CR’s and Greenhybrid.com’s Real Hybrid Mileage Database, safety ratings in Stars as posted by NHTSA, features, specs, emissions, and options as reported by Toyota, Honda, Ford, and Edmunds. Did you really want to see all of these facts posted again so Backy can get all stirred up?
The real point is that Prius is a specialized vehicle, the showcase for HSD. So naturally, it isn't going to fit the mold. It quite simply was never intended to.
___But it certainly does cost more then these comparison vehicles that are much faster, larger, safer, have much lower initial costs, lower TCO’s, possibly lower overall emissions, and handle better depending on which is being looked at.
since the automotive market is rapidly changing right now, much of the comments posted here recently will have to be seriously reexamined in just a few years. HSD would have improved (price, availability, configuration, etc.) and virtually nothing would have changed with the traditional vehicles (they are already at their apex).
___Sure is! The 2005 Corolla can now be equipped with Side Curtains, TRAC, and VSC vs. none of these back in 04. The 2004 and 2005 Accord EX is still a much better value and buy then the 2004 Prius II. And you are still waiting and waiting and waiting to purchase an 04/05 Prius II. Does the 05 Prius II have changes worth noting or is it still an also ran by comparison to the Accord in particular? I know what can and cannot be purchased for a particular price today.
___I haven’t a clue as to what the automobile manufactures will offer in 06/07 and for what price. If it’s attractive, I will consider it as most others will as well. If it isn’t, oh well. Those doing the serious comparisons today are more then likely looking at buying what is available today, not 2 or 3 years from now.
The personal stuff ends here - please change the tone of the conversation, and leave the accusations and insults out of it. Further posts along this line will be deleted without notice.
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Hey guys - why not just test drive all of these and see which one "feels" right? What ever that may be - being green, getting a tax credit, driving alone in the HOV lane (legally). These things may mean more to some than all the statistics in the world. Just have fun and enjoy what you drive.....
As John mentioned earlier, it does a nice job of laying out the different driving conditions and courses they used for city/hwy mileage. Let the debate begin.
This isn't the place for politics so I'm don't mean to stir things up but during the CA recall Arnold S. indicated he would convert one of his Hummer's over to hydrogen and that hasn't happened (okay by me, just a PR stunt IMO) Now Arnold Schwarzenegger says he wants to use solar power & not just for him, anyone have details on this ? Just imagine a Prius stopped at a light recharging its batteries via solar panels on its roof.
The one article I read was offering tax incentives to contractors that would equip homes with solar panels to alleviate the energy shortage. I don't think anyone is serious about solar for vehicle power at least in the near future.
I just got a chance to read the article people have been mentioning. Quite interesting how they threw an Echo into the mix. I don't think they were too thrilled with it either! They also were somewhat biased against the VW TDI. I'd have to agree with them on the Prius. I came away quite impressed with my extended test drive (a bit over 50 miles). I haven't driven the HCH so I can't make any comments. I have driven an Echo and let's just say there is NO comparison. The Prius is quite Lexus like in its execution. The Echo is so crude it shouldn't even be compared. If supplies ease in the next year or so, I will definitely consider a hybrid. Now I finally realize what all the hype is about. Its well deserved. Kudos Toyota!!
I prefer the Civic. I like the stick shift better. It feels like you're really accelerating (even the CVT feels faster). I like that the Civic operates like a normal car in all aspects, except one extra meter (Battery).
. Prius has too many "quirks" for my comfort. Can't use 10W-30 or warning lights will come on. Can't jumpstart it, because the 12V battery is hidden in the trunk. When driving, you feel disconnected from the road. Even the gear shift is strange (no park).
Perhaps the Civic "feels" quicker because its smaller engine revs higher, imparting the impression of acceleration. Also the relative smoothness of the Prius vs. the HCH may mask the fact that the Prius is actually quicker.
Actually, I think it's pretty cool that the Prius warns you if you put the wrong weight oil in--might keep some owners from engine damage due to negligence by themselves or a lube tech.
How many times have we heard someone say.."IF YOU CAN AFFORD A HUMMER ..YOU CAN AFFORD THE GAS WHAT EVER THE COST?" Well I just visited a HUMMER OWNERS WEB SITE and what do you think they talk back & forth about? "What can I install to get my HUMMER better MPG's? WILL K & N airfilters help me improve my 9 MPG's? What after market accessories are available to boost my fuel economy? These and many more that, simply put, give you a bit of insight as to Hummer owners realizing why "GM" fails to post EPA mileage stats on the window of these behemoths. Same goes for FORD EXCURSION & CADILLAC ESCALADE. Culliganman(Hybrid Future Is Safe & Sound)
I have seen similar postings in the Honda Performance sites over the past 3 or 4 weeks as well and those machines already receive decent FE. Times are indeed a changin
PS I looked at a Hummer2 while I was stuck in Anchorage the last two days. They had a dealer markup of $4999 over MSRP, $66k. Stopped at the VW dealer to check on VW TDIs. They charge $1000 over MSRP and sell everyone they get. Get this Unleaded is $1.759 that's 50 cents less than San Diego.
My info above earlier was just an observation that would surprise anyone that has heard so many "naysayers" shrugging off the Gas Guzzlers and their owners with the quick notion that they make so much $$$$$ that they don't care what the heck gas costs. Their forum sure speaks volumes to the contrary. Of course they bought those monsters unknowing the sad sad fact that 9-10 MPG's is the real world of the Dinosaurs they drive. P.T. Barnum said it all about suckers being born. Why you brought up the (nothing to do with hybrids) business about the Odyssey is confussing and way out in left field. Any box vehicle pushing air like a van or RV or Hummer, etc is not going to compare to the hybrids. 'NUFF SAID As to fuel cheaper in Alaska, I'd have to say.. good for them. Maybe they get a break up there. We sure don't.....Gas is $2.09 here in N.W. Indiana. Culliganman(Free us Prius)
In L.A. (actually, the San Fernando Valley), ARCO (the cheap stuff) regular is $2.239 and climbing. According to the news, the *average* price for regular will hit $3.00 this summer.
Of course they bought those monsters unknowing the sad sad fact that 9-10 MPG's
I find it hard to believe that anyone that buys a Hummer2 expects good mileage. Something interesting is the owners of Hummers like them about as much as the Prius owners.
As far as the Odyssey complaints about mileage it is as applicable as comparing a Hummer to the Prius. The Prius will not perform the duties of either the Hummer2 or the Odyssey. I think if you were objective in your research you would find that more Prius owners are upset with their poor mileage than are Hummer owners.
The Prius is capable of many duties that you seem to think are not within its range. With seats flipped down I'm able to carry an amazing load. Examples...1/2 cord of wood, A 36" TV, 12 boxes of assorted household goods, and 4 sets of golf clubs, 5 Adults. The hatchback is a godsend. As I said B/4 the forum for Hummers was a surprise being flooded with frustration over the WORST milage in the rankings as of late. Maybe they're knieve and/or maybe the light came on in the brain telling them that the reality of everyday gas consumption is actually a nightmare. Everyone knows that "EPA" ratings as to MPG's is practically a joke. Let's hope the gov. gets off their "unleaded fannys and develope a "real world" ratings system. Final thought....If a Prius owner complains about getting only 47 mpg's I'd say that on a scale of 1-10 that would be a 2...A Hummer's level would be considerably higher..say 8 or 9? Of course, when it comes to objective comparisons I'd say that dollar for dollar, my Prius is a "WIN-WIN situation. The Hummer will fall off (just like the sales have recently). We all know how the Prius is selling and will continue to. In one month of 1,000 miles the savings of a Prius OVER a Hummer is $168.00. Thats ..Prius @ 50 mpgs & Hummer @ 10 mpg's. GAS @ $2.10 per gal. 12 months later the savings are over 2 grand. Wow! The Hummer owner cudda taken his sweetheart to Europe for a 2 week romantic get-a-way. As a matter of fact, I think I'll do just that next month. Culliganman( $$$ well spent on Prius)
Final thought....If a Prius owner complains about getting only 47 mpg's I'd say that on a scale of 1-10 that would be a 2...A Hummer's level would be considerably higher..say 8 or 9?
You do make up some interesting statistics. Of the 106 Prius II owners reporting their mileage only 11 are getting the EPA 55 mpg combined or better. 50 owners are getting 47 mpg or less. If you buy a car for it's perceived great mileage and it does not deliver you are justifiably upset. The consumers that don't like the mileage they are getting on the Hummer2 should accept that is part of owning that monstrosity of a vehicle. They mostly love their Hummerrs, just wish the mileage was better. Same goes for the Prius, most owners love them and wish they got better mileage. As far as hauling a half cord of wood in a Prius, that sounds like a personal problem. I doubt the suspension would hold up to that kind of weight. You dwell a lot on the price of gas driving a Hummer. I just looked at a Hummer2 in the Anchorage airport. Window sticker price was $66k, which included a $4995 dealer markup. If you spend that much money for a vehicle, an extra $2k per year in fuel is chump change. Remember that Hummer driver contributes a lot more to OUR economy than any Prius driver will, in initial purchase and road tax.
If you were ever to get your wish and have everyone driving a hybrid, they will have to add at least another dollar to the road tax to maintain the highways. Hybrids are not carrying their share of the tax burden.
Something interesting is the owners of Hummers like them about as much as the Prius owners.
What is the source of your information on that? I've seen evidence to the contrary, e.g. in CR's latest satisfaction survey (ala "Would you buy this car again if you had it to do over?"), Prius was the most satisfying of the 250,000 respondees at 94%, while the Hummer H2 (only Hummer with enough responses to make the survey) was much lower, about 65% (based on looking at a bar chart on consumerreports.org).
My source is the REAL people on Edmunds. You are not going to suck me into another debate on that CR rag. It is not legitimate and no amount of bloviating will convince me that it is. Check out consumer reviews on the Hummer2 right here. These are real people with real names not nameless statistics.
the H2 is a bargain. As a "real" owner who has driven the beast for a year, I can honestly say it's been just as reliable as my '03 Denali. In fact, I like it better than anything I ever owned...and that's saying a lot. (Previous cars - BMW 740i Sport, BMW 540, Mercedes 560 SEL, Audi TT, Tundra, Discovery II, Porsche 356 Speedster, to name a few)
My source is the REAL people on Edmunds. You are not going to suck me into another debate on that CR rag. It is not legitimate and no amount of bloviating will convince me that it is. Check out consumer reviews on the Hummer2 right here. These are real people with real names not nameless statistics.
the H2 is a bargain. As a "real" owner who has driven the beast for a year, I can honestly say it's been just as reliable as my '03 Denali. In fact, I like it better than anything I ever owned...and that's saying a lot. (Previous cars - BMW 740i Sport, BMW 540, Mercedes 560 SEL, Audi TT, Tundra, Discovery II, Porsche 356 Speedster, to name a few)
First Gary Says "I think if you were objective in your research..." - Of course implying that other people aren't objective.
Then he says "My source is the REAL people on Edmunds" when citing a cherry-picked example.
So, the 250 Thousand people who replied to the CR survey aren't real people, nor are they objective.
But, a couple of people on Edmunds are real and objective.
Wait, no, that's not right. When people on Edmunds say they like the Prius, they are suddenly a self-selecting un-representative sample according to Gary.
The only explanation for this apparent contradiction is that Gary's definition of 'objective' is completely subjective.
Reminds me of that Fast Food slogan "Have it Your Way", except in Gary's case it's modified to "Have it Both Ways".
Yes, we all know those 250,000 surveys were completed not by real people, but by extraterrestrials.
"... just as reliable as my '03 Denali." So, how reliable is that Denali, anyway? That "illegitimate" CR reliability survey shows GMC vehicles with a terrible reliability record. So "as reliable as my Denali" may be what is called "faint praise."
BTW, there were 250,000 responses overall to the satisfaction question, not 250,000 Prius owners.
I am glad kacyk likes his H2. I guess someone who can afford cars like the BMW 740 and MB 560 wouldn't blink an eye while satisfying the H2's appetite for gas.
As long as we are comparing vehicles to the Prius, I think the Malibu Maxx is a much better comparison than a Hummer. The Maxx has more room than the Prius. It is a large hatchback and gets 30 mpg on the highway. Edmund's consumer rating has it equal with the Prius at 9.3 for the leather version with DVD, sunroof. The price is about the same or less. There is no artificial shortage to boost the prices. I think it is a good choice for a family looking for a nice hatchback.
If you want to lose a huge % of the value of the automobile the second it is driven off the lot, the Chevrolet Malibu MAXX is a good choice.
TCO’s
Prius II $25,676 purchase: $0.42/mile Malibu Maxx LS $23,824 purchase: $0.45/mile
KBB TIV 2004 w/ 15,000 miles
Prius II: $17,235 Malibu Maxx LS: $10,715 If you want to speak in terms of real costs, the Malibu Maxx is a very poor choice. If you want to speak about size and amenities, you can pick up a new Ford Crown Vic or 500 for ~ $20K. Good Luck Wayne R. Gerdes
If you want to speak in terms of real costs, the Malibu Maxx is a very poor choice.
It seems that one of the selling points of the Prius is the hatchback. That was more of the basis for comparison. Also my recent experience renting a Malibu was good. I drove it for 8 days and averaged 27.2 MPG mostly around town. It was much roomier feeling than the Accord or Camry that I sat in. I was also comparing the Maxx LT with all the doodads. I never buy stripped models as they are much harder to sell when that time comes.
I agree, the Maxx is a good comparo to the Prius, since both are 5-passenger hatchbacks. I looked at both closely when buying a hatchback last year. The Maxx tops the Prius in rear-seat legroom (although the Prius is no slouch there), has a little more room in the cargo compartment, and has some options the Prius does not such as rear-seat DVD and OnStar. The main reasons I took the Maxx off my list is that I didn't need the extra rear-seat legroom and cargo space (Prius had enough for my needs), and the small price premium of the Prius ('04 pkg 3) compared to the V6 Maxx with comparable equipment would be more than made up by fuel savings, considering most of the miles would be around-town driving where the Prius really shines vs. a V6. But the Maxx is a nice car, Chevy's best I think.
The KBB prices quoted above are TIV’s. You will more then likely receive less if you were trading in an 04 Prius II or Malibu Maxx w/ $15K on the clock. PP and Retail are altogether different but the delta’s are still there. If you want to bring the Accord into the discussion, it trumps everything in this discussion in terms of holding value
The 250,000 was the total number of CR respondents for ALL vehicles, not just the lowly Prius!
Actually, CR is one of the better indicators of vehicle problems and relaibility. If you don't like it what do you gauge your opinion or thoughts on? JD Powers does pretty good on intitial quality. NHSTA does pretty good on out-and-out failure recalls. There is no perfect source; that is the reason for a valid statistical sample , with distibution and stnadard deviation, etc. Look at any polling or predicition theory. It not as simple as perfect hindsight, because we can't say that a traction battery will last 8.123 years with a standard deviation of 1.32 years yet. In ten years you will be able to go back and make as exact of statement as you want. For example who could have predicted that the USA civil war was going to last from 4:30 am April 12, 1861 through April 9, 1865 (hh:mm ?)
Cheers,
MidCow - you have to understand statistics to be able to predict the future. Anyone, can predict the past.
If you don't like it what do you gauge your opinion or thoughts on?
Any number of forums, and especially Edmunds, that have REAL live people giving their experiences with their vehicles. Not a nameless, faceless number purported to represent Real owners of real vehicles put out by CR, a company I consider suspect in their agenda. I have no opinion on JD Powers never have read one of their reports. I have said this before. I consider your opinion & the opinions of the other posters much better real time information than magazine and statistical data from people that get paid to present information.
Real Opinions and experiences, such as the Edmunds forum, are good input. But,Consumer Reports is probably more accurate, only because it is a better overall statistically correct sample.
I never buy anything based on only testimonial advertising; now those people are really paid and are really the exceptions. Biggest example that comes to mind is the bow-flex grandmother.
I gotta agree MidCow......Good point. Also Awards say quite abit about a car too. Prius has just about cleaned house in that department. Then there's the other websites that add to more info. to help a potential buyer decide on a purchase. Culliganman(the more ya know, the more ya know) P.S. MotorWeek is another avenue.
Comments
So you are saying...
None of the many battery manufacturers out their care about the huge supplier opportunity hybrids offer.
Really?
They all produce rechargable NiMH batteries already. Getting to make big ones for the auto industry is nothing they'd be interested in.
Eh?
JOHN
Don't worry. I find it rather entertaining that ACCORD is now the "vehicle of choice". Previously, it was FOCUS. Before that, it was INSIGHT. And before that, it was COROLLA.
___PZEV Focus only lost big on the TCO although it does cost less then 50% of the Prius II albeit being larger, faster, better handling, less polluting, and can be more luxuriously equipped by many measures.
___The Honda Insight? The only item the Insight has all over the Prius II is that I paid about 37% of what you did and receive almost double the fuel economy? You must love driving back and forth to work by yourself sucking down fuel at a rate just a bit under the Corolla. You remember her right? Faster yet uses the same to similar underpinnings and costs $12,000 less money? It certainly doesn’t have the amenities but with a lmpg of ~ 5 mpg less when I drive then your Prius II and $12,000 in the bank, she makes a great commuter for many that cannot afford or are willing to wait for a Prius II?
___And the Accord? Wow. It has so many advantages over and above the Prius II. From every post, you haven’t seen any advantage in any automobile compared to the Prius II and especially the Accord EX for any and all reasons.
That really makes me wonder which vehicle will be next and how soon that abrupt change to argue in favor of something else will come.
___If I find another automobile that is better then the Prius II, I will post about it as well given what the Prius lacks in performance in particular. I can’t help the Toyota made the Prius II slower then a Toyota Echo, much smaller then a Toyota Camry, yet charge as much as a lower end Toyota Avalon but in doing so, they opened the Prius II up for a ton of great comparisons.
___Overall, I haven’t seen you add much to this thread other then your term of “Vague” even after a fact or fact(s) are posted. Is there any item or aspect that the Focus, Insight, Corolla, or Accord have over a Prius II or are they all inferior in every respect? I cannot wait for this reply ;-)
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___And with all of the above, when the Corolla or Camry Hybrid is available that has the same or similar performance as that of the 4 w/ Auto and can be purchased for just $2,000 premium, then Hybrid’s will take over. Unfortunately if this scenario does come about, I don’t know where the Prius II will fit? With an ~ $7K premium for the Escape HEV over its 4 cyl. brethren and a rumored $7K for the RXh over the RX, those won’t fly in big enough numbers to make any difference either imho.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
His ex-governor can whip your governor's butt...
Although I doubt that Jesse would fit in a Prius. Probably drives a Hummer like our Gov.....
The real point is that Prius is a specialized vehicle, the showcase for HSD. So naturally, it isn't going to fit the mold. It quite simply was never intended to.
And since the automotive market is rapidly changing right now, much of the comments posted here recently will have to be seriously reexamined in just a few years. HSD would have improved (price, availability, configuration, etc.) and virtually nothing would have changed with the traditional vehicles (they are already at their apex).
JOHN
___I like Jesse V too ;-)
___John,
you are guilty of "vague" in that very post. I see "lacks" and "slower" and "smaller" and "lower" references with no numerics whatsoever for comparisons or to even establish a frame-of-reference.,
___That is a laugh. You haven’t provided anything yet I do provide volumes in exact cu. ft, prices in both TCO and initial cost $’s, performance from 0 - 60 in seconds as measured by any number of car mags, fuel economy figures and car scoring as posted by CR’s and Greenhybrid.com’s Real Hybrid Mileage Database, safety ratings in Stars as posted by NHTSA, features, specs, emissions, and options as reported by Toyota, Honda, Ford, and Edmunds. Did you really want to see all of these facts posted again so Backy can get all stirred up?
The real point is that Prius is a specialized vehicle, the showcase for HSD. So naturally, it isn't going to fit the mold. It quite simply was never intended to.
___But it certainly does cost more then these comparison vehicles that are much faster, larger, safer, have much lower initial costs, lower TCO’s, possibly lower overall emissions, and handle better depending on which is being looked at.
since the automotive market is rapidly changing right now, much of the comments posted here recently will have to be seriously reexamined in just a few years. HSD would have improved (price, availability, configuration, etc.) and virtually nothing would have changed with the traditional vehicles (they are already at their apex).
___Sure is! The 2005 Corolla can now be equipped with Side Curtains, TRAC, and VSC vs. none of these back in 04. The 2004 and 2005 Accord EX is still a much better value and buy then the 2004 Prius II. And you are still waiting and waiting and waiting to purchase an 04/05 Prius II. Does the 05 Prius II have changes worth noting or is it still an also ran by comparison to the Accord in particular? I know what can and cannot be purchased for a particular price today.
___I haven’t a clue as to what the automobile manufactures will offer in 06/07 and for what price. If it’s attractive, I will consider it as most others will as well. If it isn’t, oh well. Those doing the serious comparisons today are more then likely looking at buying what is available today, not 2 or 3 years from now.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host
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Review your vehicle
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=- 8427
As John mentioned earlier, it does a nice job of laying out the different driving conditions and courses they used for city/hwy mileage. Let the debate begin.
Mike
I prefer the Civic. I like the stick shift better. It feels like you're really accelerating (even the CVT feels faster). I like that the Civic operates like a normal car in all aspects, except one extra meter (Battery).
.
Prius has too many "quirks" for my comfort. Can't use 10W-30 or warning lights will come on. Can't jumpstart it, because the 12V battery is hidden in the trunk. When driving, you feel disconnected from the road. Even the gear shift is strange (no park).
troy
Untrue
The Prius has jump points under the hood next to the engine like every other car.
HCH 5-speed: 11.9 secs. (charge?)
HCH CVT: 12.1 secs. (full charge)
Prius: 10.2 secs. (full charge)
Perhaps the Civic "feels" quicker because its smaller engine revs higher, imparting the impression of acceleration. Also the relative smoothness of the Prius vs. the HCH may mask the fact that the Prius is actually quicker.
Actually, I think it's pretty cool that the Prius warns you if you put the wrong weight oil in--might keep some owners from engine damage due to negligence by themselves or a lube tech.
Culliganman(Hybrid Future Is Safe & Sound)
I have seen similar postings in the Honda Performance sites over the past 3 or 4 weeks as well and those machines already receive decent FE. Times are indeed a changin
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
cabaiste, "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions" #4238, 4 Mar 2005 4:16 pm
dulnev, "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions" #4217, 2 Mar 2005 10:45 pm
tcapers, "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions" #4210, 2 Mar 2005 10:28 am
stickguy, "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions" #4213, 2 Mar 2005 11:11 am
PS
I looked at a Hummer2 while I was stuck in Anchorage the last two days. They had a dealer markup of $4999 over MSRP, $66k. Stopped at the VW dealer to check on VW TDIs. They charge $1000 over MSRP and sell everyone they get. Get this Unleaded is $1.759 that's 50 cents less than San Diego.
Why you brought up the (nothing to do with hybrids) business about the Odyssey is confussing and way out in left field. Any box vehicle pushing air like a van or RV or Hummer, etc is not going to compare to the hybrids. 'NUFF SAID
As to fuel cheaper in Alaska, I'd have to say.. good for them. Maybe they get a break up there. We sure don't.....Gas is $2.09 here in N.W. Indiana.
Culliganman(Free us Prius)
In L.A. (actually, the San Fernando Valley), ARCO (the cheap stuff) regular is $2.239 and climbing. According to the news, the *average* price for regular will hit $3.00 this summer.
jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 3000 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG
I find it hard to believe that anyone that buys a Hummer2 expects good mileage. Something interesting is the owners of Hummers like them about as much as the Prius owners.
As far as the Odyssey complaints about mileage it is as applicable as comparing a Hummer to the Prius. The Prius will not perform the duties of either the Hummer2 or the Odyssey. I think if you were objective in your research you would find that more Prius owners are upset with their poor mileage than are Hummer owners.
As I said B/4 the forum for Hummers was a surprise being flooded with frustration over the WORST milage in the rankings as of late. Maybe they're knieve and/or maybe the light came on in the brain telling them that the reality of everyday gas consumption is actually a nightmare.
Everyone knows that "EPA" ratings as to MPG's is practically a joke. Let's hope the gov. gets off their "unleaded fannys and develope a "real world" ratings system.
Final thought....If a Prius owner complains about getting only 47 mpg's I'd say that on a scale of 1-10 that would be a 2...A Hummer's level would be considerably higher..say 8 or 9?
Of course, when it comes to objective comparisons I'd say that dollar for dollar, my Prius is a "WIN-WIN situation. The Hummer will fall off (just like the sales have recently). We all know how the Prius is selling and will continue to. In one month of 1,000 miles the savings of a Prius OVER a Hummer is $168.00. Thats ..Prius @ 50 mpgs & Hummer @ 10 mpg's. GAS @ $2.10 per gal. 12 months later the savings are over 2 grand. Wow! The Hummer owner cudda taken his sweetheart to Europe for a 2 week romantic get-a-way. As a matter of fact, I think I'll do just that next month.
Culliganman( $$$ well spent on Prius)
You do make up some interesting statistics. Of the 106 Prius II owners reporting their mileage only 11 are getting the EPA 55 mpg combined or better. 50 owners are getting 47 mpg or less. If you buy a car for it's perceived great mileage and it does not deliver you are justifiably upset. The consumers that don't like the mileage they are getting on the Hummer2 should accept that is part of owning that monstrosity of a vehicle. They mostly love their Hummerrs, just wish the mileage was better. Same goes for the Prius, most owners love them and wish they got better mileage. As far as hauling a half cord of wood in a Prius, that sounds like a personal problem. I doubt the suspension would hold up to that kind of weight. You dwell a lot on the price of gas driving a Hummer. I just looked at a Hummer2 in the Anchorage airport. Window sticker price was $66k, which included a $4995 dealer markup. If you spend that much money for a vehicle, an extra $2k per year in fuel is chump change. Remember that Hummer driver contributes a lot more to OUR economy than any Prius driver will, in initial purchase and road tax.
If you were ever to get your wish and have everyone driving a hybrid, they will have to add at least another dollar to the road tax to maintain the highways. Hybrids are not carrying their share of the tax burden.
What is the source of your information on that? I've seen evidence to the contrary, e.g. in CR's latest satisfaction survey (ala "Would you buy this car again if you had it to do over?"), Prius was the most satisfying of the 250,000 respondees at 94%, while the Hummer H2 (only Hummer with enough responses to make the survey) was much lower, about 65% (based on looking at a bar chart on consumerreports.org).
the H2 is a bargain. As a "real" owner who has driven the beast for a year, I can honestly say it's been just as reliable as my '03 Denali. In fact, I like it better than anything I ever owned...and that's saying a lot. (Previous cars - BMW 740i Sport, BMW 540, Mercedes 560 SEL, Audi TT, Tundra, Discovery II, Porsche 356 Speedster, to name a few)
kacyk, "Hummer H2" #560, 7 Jan 2005 4:00 am
the H2 is a bargain. As a "real" owner who has driven the beast for a year, I can honestly say it's been just as reliable as my '03 Denali. In fact, I like it better than anything I ever owned...and that's saying a lot. (Previous cars - BMW 740i Sport, BMW 540, Mercedes 560 SEL, Audi TT, Tundra, Discovery II, Porsche 356 Speedster, to name a few)
kacyk, "Hummer H2" #560, 7 Jan 2005 4:00 am
I have to question any statistic that claims they have 250,000 Prius owners responding. I don't believe that many have been sold....
First Gary Says "I think if you were objective in your research..." - Of course implying that other people aren't objective.
Then he says "My source is the REAL people on Edmunds" when citing a cherry-picked example.
So, the 250 Thousand people who replied to the CR survey aren't real people, nor are they objective.
But, a couple of people on Edmunds are real and objective.
Wait, no, that's not right. When people on Edmunds say they like the Prius, they are suddenly a self-selecting un-representative sample according to Gary.
The only explanation for this apparent contradiction is that Gary's definition of 'objective' is completely subjective.
Reminds me of that Fast Food slogan "Have it Your Way", except in Gary's case it's modified to "Have it Both Ways".
"... just as reliable as my '03 Denali." So, how reliable is that Denali, anyway? That "illegitimate" CR reliability survey shows GMC vehicles with a terrible reliability record. So "as reliable as my Denali" may be what is called "faint praise."
BTW, there were 250,000 responses overall to the satisfaction question, not 250,000 Prius owners.
I am glad kacyk likes his H2. I guess someone who can afford cars like the BMW 740 and MB 560 wouldn't blink an eye while satisfying the H2's appetite for gas.
DrFill
And my #2: No car, ESPECIALLY a hybrid, gets the EPA numbers, unless Grandma is the one driving it.
EVERY MAN, WOMAN, AND CHILD in America knows any numbers you see on the sticker are 15-25% higher than what you WILL get on a daily basis.
EPA has no clue how to test a Prius for economy, or any other way.
C&D got 50MPG on a test loop, so I'm duly impressed! Rock on!!
DrFill
If you want to lose a huge % of the value of the automobile the second it is driven off the lot, the Chevrolet Malibu MAXX is a good choice.
TCO’s
Prius II $25,676 purchase: $0.42/mile
Malibu Maxx LS $23,824 purchase: $0.45/mile
KBB TIV
2004 w/ 15,000 miles
Prius II: $17,235
Malibu Maxx LS: $10,715
If you want to speak in terms of real costs, the Malibu Maxx is a very poor choice. If you want to speak about size and amenities, you can pick up a new Ford Crown Vic or 500 for ~ $20K.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Thanks.
It seems that one of the selling points of the Prius is the hatchback. That was more of the basis for comparison. Also my recent experience renting a Malibu was good. I drove it for 8 days and averaged 27.2 MPG mostly around town. It was much roomier feeling than the Accord or Camry that I sat in. I was also comparing the Maxx LT with all the doodads. I never buy stripped models as they are much harder to sell when that time comes.
Those things are like Mini Coopers! You are paying over $20k, no doubt!
Sales have skyrocketed this year for Prius! I guess the supply boats are in.
DrFill
The KBB prices quoted above are TIV’s. You will more then likely receive less if you were trading in an 04 Prius II or Malibu Maxx w/ $15K on the clock. PP and Retail are altogether different but the delta’s are still there. If you want to bring the Accord into the discussion, it trumps everything in this discussion in terms of holding value
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Actually, CR is one of the better indicators of vehicle problems and relaibility. If you don't like it what do you gauge your opinion or thoughts on? JD Powers does pretty good on intitial quality. NHSTA does pretty good on out-and-out failure recalls. There is no perfect source; that is the reason for a valid statistical sample , with distibution and stnadard deviation, etc. Look at any polling or predicition theory. It not as simple as perfect hindsight, because we can't say that a traction battery will last 8.123 years with a standard deviation of 1.32 years yet. In ten years you will be able to go back and make as exact of statement as you want. For example who could have predicted that the USA civil war was going to last from 4:30 am April 12, 1861 through April 9, 1865 (hh:mm ?)
Cheers,
MidCow - you have to understand statistics to be able to predict the future. Anyone, can predict the past.
Any number of forums, and especially Edmunds, that have REAL live people giving their experiences with their vehicles. Not a nameless, faceless number purported to represent Real owners of real vehicles put out by CR, a company I consider suspect in their agenda. I have no opinion on JD Powers never have read one of their reports. I have said this before. I consider your opinion & the opinions of the other posters much better real time information than magazine and statistical data from people that get paid to present information.
I never buy anything based on only testimonial advertising; now those people are really paid and are really the exceptions. Biggest example that comes to mind is the bow-flex grandmother.
Good luck everyone !
MidCow
Also Awards say quite abit about a car too. Prius has just about cleaned house in that department. Then there's the other websites that add to more info. to help a potential buyer decide on a purchase.
Culliganman(the more ya know, the more ya know)
P.S. MotorWeek is another avenue.
Prius: 10.2 secs. (full charge)
Perhaps the Civic "feels" quicker because its smaller engine revs higher
.
Yeah well, that's what I said. Civic FEELS faster, and that's why I prefer it. I prefer manual shifting too.
However, I dispute your numbers. Car&Driver tests (fully charged) show:
Civic cvt = 11.0
Prius cvt = 11.3
Essentially Equal.
Troy
Bring It On, Hybrid Synergy Boys !!!
CIVIC = 12.8
PRIUS = 15.0
troy
I said I prefer the manual shift. Prius doesn't have manual. So it's obvious I wouldn't pick it.
troy
We should note that is a depleted battery, not empty. The Prius won't even start if the battery is below 20%.
The HCH, of course, will just run more slowly.