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Toyota Prius v. ??? (fill in the comparison)

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can haul a stack of 12 foot 2"x12" and a 12 sheets of plywood in my Suburban with the doors shut. I wonder if I could get a Prius back there. For many people an SUV is just more practical and those that don't like them need to "Just get Over It"
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > For many people an SUV is just more practical

    Are you going to tell everyone that the interior of a full-size conversion van is even bigger and even more practical?

    Minivans, like the new Sienna, are quite impressive now too... and far more fuel efficient.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure what a conversion van has to do with an SUV. IMO Mini Vans are a hazard to those driving them. I would not put my children in one. And the gas savings is insignificant. And in the case of the Diesel Excursion, owners are reporting better mileage 18/25 mpg, NO comparison in safety. The number ONE thing to me is Mine and My families safety. All the other things, conservation, environment, other people are a distant 2nd to My family. If you feel otherwise that is your choice. If they ever get the problems ironed out of the Prius it will be a reasonable commuter car for those that travel a lot. Still not economical when you look at the big picture. If you like lots of gadgets in your car, it is cool. Otherwise it is a waste of money.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Are you going to tell everyone that the interior of a full-size conversion van is even bigger and even more practical?

    I can show you a van conversion at the AirStream dealer half a mile from my house. It is bigger than my Suburban by a lot and gets 22/29 mpg. It is built into the very fine Sprinter Van with a Mercedes diesel engine. If you are looking for a vehicle to go traveling and carry your home with you, that is a great choice. I would not want to commute to work in one, that's just me. I'm not sure why you are comparing it to the Prius but that is just You.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I didn't consider a larger car because to two things:

    1. Cost. Those Excursions are expensive, and the diesel (which is the only way to go) is another 4K or so.
    2. Size. I find them to be very difficult to maneuver and (especially) park.
    3. I prefer a more nimble vehicle, since more than once I have avoided accidents by quick actions (by me) and reactions (from the car). A 6000 lb vehicle has a log of inertia to overcome.

    Note that these are the only reasons I didn't buy one. I agree that the family is the most important thing, and I require that my cars have high safety ratings in both the Highway Institute and the government tests...

    Other people would point out (correctly) that vehicles meet crash standards only against their own weight class, and that if all vehicles were smaller and ligher your family would still be protected just as well.

    Unless you want to drive an M-1, that is... but they get 3 gallons per mile. Talk about your environmental nightmare...
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    If the number 1 concern is safety why not a big gravel truck for the family instead of a Suburban ? It would haul more and you could drive around with the headlights on, yea not very nimble or fun to drive but who cares.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Hmmm, don't think you could fit a family of 4 or 6 in to that dump truck cab...
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Sure you could, the Chevy C8500 crew cab holds 6 people http://www.chevrolet.com/medium_duty/kodiak/c8500t/vital_stats.ht- m
    but staying home may be safer still and it would be one less trip.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A concern for the safety of one's family should not be limited to when they are on the highways and byways. While highway safety is important (one reason to buy a newer car with the latest safety features), there are other aspects of my family's well-being that actually concern me more than highway safety right now. And our choice of vehicles does affect some of those other safety aspects.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Backy, interesting comment. What are those other safety aspects?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    e.g. safe breathing, and certain geo-political issues that I will not go into here because I know our Friendly Host will step in and remind us that they are off-topic.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Ah, thought so. Most of these issues are too long term for the average person to care about... humankind being pretty predictable in this respect (if you don't believe me ask the Dodo bird or any farmer in the Amazon)...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > IMO Mini Vans are a hazard to those driving them.

    The official safety ratings totally disagree with you.

    Minivans are among the safest standard vehicles available.

    JOHN
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I don't consider clean air, water and communities "long term" we can do it now, a transportation solution for most of us has been here for a few years.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Hmmm, I realize that you and others may be interested in these things, but I still think that most people simply don't think in those time frames.

    There is no sudden solution that will be acceptable to Americans. That doesn't mean solutions aren't there, just that the political will isn't there in the citizens to implement them. It takes time to implement changes... in people.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Speaking of van safety,
    I'm on my 2nd Grand Caravan.
    The first one died at only 18K miles. A chevy pickup slammed the passenger sliding door at +60MPH, so the witnesses say.
    The both passenger doors were destroyed, side glass panels didn't break but since the roof was twisted the windscreen split, quad chairs were skewed for the accordian buckled floor....a total loss.
    The pickup was destroyed and the driver broke his hands.
    The wife & 3 small kids were there, my 6 year old was sitting in the seat next to the impact and only suffered a bit lip. Amazing.
    I was so impressed by its safety display that we bought another one to replace.

    Now that we've tasted fantastic MPG with a hybrid I can surely say that my GC is superior to Prius...

    Except my Grand Caravan is a NASTY POLLUTING GAS PIG....and we'd love to get out from under....(anyone here interested in a nice beautiful used van? :-) because we're looking to buy a 2nd hybrid car, and rent a van for occasional long family trips or to haul stuff.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Your absolutely right about maneuvering around town, especially parking. I like the Excursion because it drives the Anti-SUV guys up a wall. My Suburban is not the easiest to get in the small spaces in many parking lots. It turns much sharper than the Excursion. It is a shame more diesel SUV and regular cars are not available to us here in the USA.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't consider clean air, water and communities "long term" we can do it now, a transportation solution for most of us has been here for a few years.

    We totally agree on the environment. The problem is solutions have been available for decades and the EPA has not chosen to implement them. How many years has Europe had ULSD? They have the advantage of diesel cars that are clean running and very fuel efficient. We continue in our old ways and put bandaids on the problems, such as Ethanol and hybrids. I doubt the hybrids will be a big seller in Europe. They don't need all that fancy stuff to get decent power and fuel economy.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    An engine-only diesel is a poor solution.

    Increasing road congestion will only make the emissions problem worse.

    A diesel-hybrid, where it would have the ability to drive using only electricity like Prius, would be a popular choice. Many would be interested in that, despite your continued anti-hybrid claims.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    On the contrary I am not anti-hybrid. I just don't live in a dream world as some do. Thinking the hybrid is the end all is not realistic. They can't make the big bucks building them so they dribble them out to keep a "green image" of themselves.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Thinking the hybrid is the end all is not realistic.

    Who thinks that?

    I certainly don't.

    Countless times now I stated how the HSD design will become increasing more efficient by becoming increasing more electric. And at some point, there will literally be no system difference between it and a fuel-cell vehicle, only the power source itself. The propulsion system and all the creature-comfort features will be entirely electric. And of course, that accomodates grid supplementing too.

    > They can't make the big bucks building them

    What proof do you have of that?

    Remember, at one time the automatic transmission and A/C took time to become mainstream too. What makes this any different?

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "because we're looking to buy a 2nd hybrid car, and rent a van for occasional long family trips or to haul stuff."

    Your family might well have ceased to exist if you had been driving a Prius. It is a matter of physics. That Chevy pickup is a big vehicle, and you have to read the fine print on the great ratings for crash tests - it says the results are valid only for vehicles in the same weight class. This means that your T&C would fare much better in the same accident with a large, heavy vehicle, than the Prius.

    This is not a hit against the Prius, it is a smaller vehicle. The same statement is true for a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Echo, and any number of other small cars.

    However this was the point of the post a few days back where the author indicated why he drives a Ford Excursion - it is big and provides a lot of protection in a crash.

    The Prius has excellent safety systems, well designed and implemented. But inertia and sheer mass will tell in a collision...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > On the contrary I am not anti-hybrid.

    Simply contradicting is hardly convincing.

    Perhaps you should state (not vaguely, obviously) what you are in favor of.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are half-correct. Frontal impact tests cannot be compared across vehicles of significantly different weights. But side impact tests can be compared across all vehicles because the same size/weight sled is used to ram every vehicle.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    The new "rollover" tests actually provide more important data that the crash tests.

    Because when given a choice, people choose avoiding an accident in the first place.

    Cars typically fair much better in this respect compared to old SUVs... hence the reason new SUV ground-clearance is now being reduced.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I take your point, but are those sleds the size of a full size pickup (5,000) pounds? In any case, in my opinion, a Ford Excursion side impact is going to provide more protection than a Prius, due to the quantity of steel involved.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Perhaps you should state (not vaguely, obviously) what you are in favor of.

    That is easy. I am in favor of any vehicle that gets significantly better mileage than vehicles we have been offered over the last 20 years. With a very few exceptions mileage has not increased, it has actually decreased. Sure I will agree the hybrids are getting good mileage. They have no real world reliability records to convince me they can go 15 years without major expense. The only high mileage Prius I have seen written about is a cab in Vancouver BC. That is hardly a factor worth considering. Show me the people that have gone 150k+ miles in a Prius without any problems. After, what did you say 8 years in production, there should be thousands of them.
    You are always asking for facts while spewing out unsubstantiated rhetoric & spin. Show us some facts and not just idle promises. In 45 years of following the new car market I cannot remember a time when cars were promised and then delayed like the Escape & RX400 hybrids. You used to be able to set your calendar in September when the new cars came out. Not with the hybrids it is one excuse after another. I think Toyota and Ford may wise up to the fact that they built themselves into a corner with a white elephant technology. The other majors will bring out real cars that handle and get good mileage with modern diesel engines. they are being built and will get approved for here probably before the next hybrid hits the showroom floor. I think the Escape is a year behind and the RX400H about the same. You can make all the excuses in the world that does not put a car in the driveway of the people that trusted Toyota and Ford when they lied to them about when they would get their new hybrids.

    Now here is the car I want and it is a very clean diesel! Is that precise enough for you?

    http://www.bmwworld.com/models/320cd.htm
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That was no where near precise enough for me. Not even close. Sorry.

    Please *QUANTIFY* your expectations.

    An actual number is great. But a percentage is fine.

    For example, that statement about Toyota not delivering hybrids is vague. Toyota promised 300,000 hybrid systems per year by 2006 and that is exactly what appears to be happening. Production capacity is increasing at a steady and predictable rate leading to the achievement of the 300,000 right on time. Those numbers are on track. They may not end up in the vehicles you had hoped for. But the 300,000 systems should be delivered as promised.

    Your statements about duration require numbers of their own still, traditional vehicle data to compare & contrast with.

    Please tell us a desired MPG and Emission rating you hope to be achieved, and by when.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The sled used by the NHTSA for side impacts is about 3,015 pounds--about the weight of a midsized sedan. But it's not just the quantity of steel, it's the quality of design. For example, the Civic 2-door sedan with SABs, 2502 pounds, gets 5-star ratings from the NHTSA on side crash tests front and rear. The Chevy Colorado Crew Cab, 4023 pounds, gets 4 stars in front and 5 in the back. The Cadillac DeVille with SABs, 4037 pounds, gets 4 stars front and back. At some point the extra metal wins out every time, e.g. the armor plate on an Abrams tank.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What is vague about Toyota lying on delivery of hybrid vehicles. That is precisely what they did. I don't care if they promise 10 million hybrids by the third of October 2005. We know now that all their promises when concerning Hybrid deliveris are not true. So why would anyone except you believe they are going to do what they say? Numbers to me mean nothing unless they are in the past. If you say I drove my Prius 125k miles without a problem that is data that can be used. Not I plan to drive my Prius 125k miles before I trade it on a new Prius that is nothing but speculation until it actually happens. Your hoping they build more Prius vehicles will not mean anything to Toyota or anyone else for that matter until we see the proof. You have shown us Nothing in the way of Proof that more HSD hybrids will be built.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How many BMW diesel coupes have been driven 150k miles without a single problem--as you demand of the Prius?
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Well, since this is the Comparison Thread, I guess I really should compare.

    How about Prius versus Mercedes E Class?

    http://www.newstreet.it/home/article_Id_627.html

    The Prius is a VERY safe car. In the European crash tests it recorded the highest score ever in it's class and the highest score ever recorded in any vehicle in Child Safety. It also scored very well in the new Pedestrian Safety test.

    One little known fact about the Prius is the special attention to detail Toyota paid to the passenger compartment, which results in a structure that is far stronger than you'd expect for it's size.

    From the Article:

    "To achieve this all-important balance between weight and resistance, some 45% of the Prius body is constructed from High-Strength Steel. In addition, in a world auto industry first, Ultra High-Strength Steel in key areas such as the B-pillar is combined with a hot-stamping manufacturing process, making this material 2.5 times stronger than conventional High-Strength Steel."

    Oh, yeah, I forgot the comparison.

    The Prius is safer in every test than the Mercedes E Class, which is generally considered a 'standard' for passenger car safety.

    Euro Tests Available at http://www.euroncap.com/
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Since you refuse to answer my questions, I see no reason to bother replying...

    Obviously, the wants will not be fulfilled if you keep them a secret.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    First did I not read that the European version of the Prius had some additional safety features that were not standard on the US Prius? Second crash tests that don't test against anything other than a vehicle of the same size and weight are of little value in the real world. You get hit by a Toyota Land Cruiser or an E320 MB not much will be left of the Prius passengers. I'll take the E320 CDI any day of the week over the Prius and pay a little more for fuel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My vehicle wants could not possibly be fulfilled by you or Toyota. When are you going to wake up and realize they are only building and pretending to build additional hybrids to cover up there overall horrible fuel economy and emissions record. You never acknowledge anything you know is true if it is in the least bit negative toward Toyota. Well the Toyota Land Cruiser/LX470 are the 2nd and 3rd worst polluters on the US market. They need to find a few guinea pigs to try out there new technology so no one will figure out they are making billions off of high pollution vehicles. You are blind to anything other than HSD and Prius. And I don't buy they are doing their best. GM still has a better mileage and emissions record than Toyota or Ford over the whole fleet. They need the hybrid to balance the lopsided scales.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Looks like BMW may not be able to fulfill your needs, either. Note the crash test scores for the BMW 3 Series:

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2004MidS.html

    This was for the 4-door, but the note about high likelihood of pelvic injury was for the front seat. The 2-door hasn't been tested. At least the 3 Series did well on frontal impacts--as did the Prius.

    I noticed that the Prius actually scored better than the E-Class on driver frontal impact crash (NHTSA, five stars for Prius vs. four for E-Class), although the E-Class scored higher on side impact (five stars vs. four)
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Funny, if you had read the article, you'd see that the Prius was tested against a Land Cruiser as part of it's development, specifically to make sure it stood up to SUVs.

    The size comparison is valid, but doesn't detract in any way from the stellar performance of the Prius. Let's rephrase then. For Its Size - The Prius is safer than an E Class, and is the safest car of it's size you can buy.

    Finally, the only extra safety feature on the Euro Prius is VSC+ which includes steering angle sensing in the equation compared to the VSC offered in NA. The Euro Prius does have Rear Discs instead of Rear Drums, and bigger tires, so it might possibly be better in avoidance, but that's kind of irrelevant in a crash test.

    Oh, and really finally, if you 'took' an E320 CDI, you'd be paying more than a 'little more' for not much more safety, and THEN paying more for fuel :)

    All in all, the Prius is an amazingly safe car, in addition to it's other virtues.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    OK I read it. What does this say to you? It tells me that the people in the Prius will make out as best as possible for getting hit by a Land cruiser. It does not compare the difference between a bigger heavier car getting hit. That is a vague article.
    Impacts between different size and weight vehicles constitute the most common type of accident in Europe, so Prius was crashed against the far larger Toyota Land Cruiser as part of the testing regime, both vehicles driving at 50 km/h. As a result, Prius occupants enjoy the highest possible levels of protection in real-life frontal, side and rear impacts.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    The NHTSA tests base cars by default, so the Prius was tested without side air bags.

    If the manufacturer pays extra, the NHTSA will perform the test for models with more safety features.

    You can see that Honda paid to have the Civic with Side air bags tested too, and hopefully Toyota will do the same for the Prius.

    There's every reason to expect that the Prius with Side Air Bags would get 5 stars on Side Impact. It did in Europe where Side Air Bags are standard.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    I don't see anything vague about it at all. Quite the opposite.

    It says, explicitly, that the Prius was designed from the ground up, and tested, to be as safe as possible in an impact with a larger vehicle, specifically a Land Cruiser.

    In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Occupants of a Prius came out better in a collision with a Land Cruiser than the occupants of a Land Cruiser in a collision with another Land Cruiser.

    The Crash Test Ratings bear out just how good it is.

    You are really getting desperate now it seems. Is it really that hard to admit in the face of all the evidence that the Prius is a remarkable safety feat as well as a remarkable engineering feat?
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    gagrice proclaims - "My vehicle wants could not possibly be fulfilled by you or Toyota. When are you going to wake up and realize....(rant deleted)"

    Ok, my bad. I actually replied in good faith to your other messages before reading this one, expecting to be talking the merits of individual cars based on facts.

    I understand now. You hate Toyota and are 'blind' (to use your words), to anything else.

    Got it. Please disregard any facts I or others may bave presented. I understand they are inconvenient. Carry on.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the Prius is a technological marvel, no doubt. I don't think it is the wave of the future as some would have us believe.
    1. By your crash test article it expounds on the extra high strength metal that goes into the Prius.
    2. It also has 8 airbags on the European version which I thought I had read. (not standard on the US version)
    3. With all the expensive components High tensile strength steel, electric motors, batteries, lots of additional electronic controls it has to cost more to produce than a standard mid-size car.
    4. If the original Prius cost Toyota $35k to manufacture and they sold them here for $20k, that is a lot of PR money spent. The last article I read was that the Prius was at the break even point for Toyota.
    Right now if you can find one for MSRP it is $3k to $10k more than a car that will fulfill the same need for transportation for a family of 4-5 people. It can only be justified by those that would like people to think they are environmentally "with it" or they just love gadgets. It is NOT an economical option now or for the foreseeable future.

    Finally as for the Prius vs Landcruiser test it was very vague. Would the people get killed? It just says they would do as well as anyone in a car of that size against the Land Cruiser. Was the car destroyed? It does not say anything about it. That is one of my gripes about writers, they leave out things that don't exemplify their point of view.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    gagrice proclaims - "My vehicle wants could not possibly be fulfilled by you or Toyota. When are you going to wake up and realize....(rant deleted)"
    As you may have noticed I am debating two of you at the same time. The above remarks were directed at the other poster.

    My remarks to you dealt with the evidence you presented in a civil manner. On the other debate which you have injected yourself, I am dealing with some one that has little use for facts or evidence. His claims are all from his opinions with snippets of information he has gleaned from his own limited experience with the Prius.

    And you deduced correctly that I am not a big fan of Toyota. I bought a new Toyota Land Cruiser in 1964 that had the worst copy of a Chevy six that you could ever imagine. 3 valve jobs and 2 new timing gears & piston rings in 48k miles. I also bought a new Toyota PU in 1992 & 1994 both for family members. They were both less than reliable vehicles. If you have had great reliability from your Toyota vehicles that is great. My experience was not as pleasant.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Well then, I wish you luck with your conspiracy theories and your short-term only views. Clearly, your experiences do not match the general public's, nor are they recent. They are valid, but not really relevant toward future purchases.

    For those that are interested in the ultimate outcome and progress reports along the way, I'm here to provide that info & data.

    The auto industry is beginning a massive reconstruction. With oil prices at an all-time high, makers like KIA gaining suprising amounts of marketshare, new technology providing entirely new opportunities, and the ceiling having been reached for size & speed & power, and consumer wants different from before, this ain't your father's business anymore. Those traditional approaches are not working well now. Change is inevitable. Stop fighting it.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    If the people buy smaller cars (for whatever reason), then the manufacturors will build more smaller cars. These people are driven by profits. Until then there will be huge vehicles here in the US, which are difficult to maneuver in an accident avoidance situation, and may well plow into smaller cars; it happens all the time.

    I'm glad people have found so many details about the impressive safety features of the Prius, but in a high speed T-Bone, I still think the Excursion will come out ahead...
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Who said anything about smaller cars?

    Kia is starting out like Saturn. Each iteration of vehicle gets bigger and bigger, while at the same time introducing new vehicles that are even bigger.

    Also, when it comes to safety, some people are concerned about who they squash too... which makes bigger a poor choice.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Who said anything about smaller cars?"

    I did, in the last message...

    "Also, when it comes to safety, some people are concerned about who they squash too... which makes bigger a poor choice."

    Yes, and others don't particularly care what happens to the other fellow, so long as their children survive...
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "The Prius is safer in every test than the Mercedes E Class, which is generally considered a 'standard' for passenger car safety."

    That's not true. In fact, the e-class scored better except in the area of pedestrian protection, in your own link.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    "That's not true. In fact, the e-class scored better except in the area of pedestrian protection, in your own link."

    Maybe we're reading the numbers differently.

    http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/introduction.php

    2003 Mercedes E Class

    Front 13 (81%)
    Side 18 (100%)
    Belt Reminder 2
    Overall 33
    Pedestrian 4 (11%)
    Child (N/R) (That was only started Dec 04)

    2004 Toyota Prius

    Front 14 (88%)
    Side 18 (100%)
    Belt Reminder 2
    Overall 34
    Pedestrian 13 (36%)
    Child Protection 43 (88%)

    Summary:

    Crash Rating
    Prius 34 - Mercedes 33

    Pedestrian Rating
    Prius 13 - Mercedes 4

    Child Safety
    Prius - 43 (The Highest ever recorded for any car)

    To me, the Prius has better scores. I don't know what your interpretation of those numbers is.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    In the NHTSA test the E320 has 5 stars in 3 of the test areas and the Prius only One 5 star rating. I don't think the Italian test is valid on autos we cannot buy in this country. That makes it misleading and the MB E320 is a quite a bit safer than the Prius you buy in the USA. Not only that if you get hit in a Prius by an E320 there may not be anything left as the Italian test did not state what happens to a car that is hit by a Land Cruiser only that you will do as well as can be expected in a car like the Prius. How is that a precise test?

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/SList2.cfm?vehyear=2004&vehmake- - - =Mercedes-Benz&vehmodel=E-Class

    http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/SList2.cfm?vehyear=2004&vehmake- =Toyota&vehmodel=Prius
This discussion has been closed.