___Yes, I knew that. Those that do not have the SE/SS option have to place the key in one slot and push the start button in another. The lesser optioned two placement start procedure is nuts imho.
___In regards to the mowers, they start like normal cars. Place the key in and turn unlike the non-SE/SS equipped Prius II’s. And they will cut 6” grass to 3” in a 60” swath at 8.6 mph for ¼ of the price ;-)
___As for the Accord, it has a power windows down from the FOB so when its hot, your windows are open as you unlock while walking up to it. This is before you get into the car and powering down the windows like most everyone else has to do in the heat of summer. Does the Prius II have this option?
Procedure for starting most cars: 1. Insert key into ignition. 2. Turn key.
Procedure for starting a Prius not equipped with Smart Entry & Start:
1. Insert keyfob into slot. 2. Push Start button (located directly above the keyfob slot)
Procedure for starting a Prius equipped with Smart Entry & Start:
1. Push Start button.
As for the Accord... you mean you actually have to get the keyfob out of your pocket/purse and push a button to unlock the doors (and lower the windows if you want)? On the Prius with SE/SS, you just walk up to the car and open the door.
___You missed a few steps in regards to the Prius II w/out SE/SS.
1. Insert keyfob into slot.
2. Remove hand from key
3. Place finger on Start Button
4. Push Start button (located directly above the keyfob slot)
___Not only is this unintuitive and non-ergonomic, it is plain dumb. Go watch a Prius test drive from the uninformed just once and you will see the problem up close and personal.
As for the Accord... you mean you actually have to get the keyfob out of your pocket/purse and push a button to unlock the doors (and lower the windows if you want)? On the Prius with SE/SS, you just walk up to the car and open the door.
___So the Prius II opens the windows on a hot day by itself or via Key FOB? Maybe you didn’t understand the facts as posted or the question asked afterwards? Does the Prius II have the capability to open the windows via FOB or doesn’t it?
He's trying to evade the original question, which was: Which is easier?
___John, here it is again so you cannot evade the question. Does the Prius II open the windows on a hot day by itself or via Key fob? I don’t know about the Prius II but window roll down via FOB is a std. feature with the Accord LX on up. I thought it was not only handy but kind of cute when I found out about it the other day. SE/SS is easier although I don’t remember mentioning this either way so why did you? Then again, we are comparing a $22,000 Accord EX w/ leather that is faster, larger, handles better, costs less initially and over the longer term, and possibly emits less pollution overall.
Some people have a difficult time with the traditional ignition start. Having a button instead totally eliminates that need for fine muscle control.
___Funny how these people you say have had trouble with inserting a key and turning it have had trouble over the past 100 years. How many corpses are still sitting in their cars at the dealership lots trying to figure out how to start their brand new traditional car w/ a traditional start procedure?
1. Remember where you put your keys. 2A. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys. 2B. If you remember where you put your keys, extract keys from where you left them (pocket, purse etc.). 3. (May be needed in winter) Remove bulky gloves or mittens. 4. Unlock door using little button on keyfob or key (depending on method employed, this takes several steps that are omitted here for sake of brevity). 5. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door. 6. If you used keyfob to unlock the door, select ignition key from the keyring. 7. Move key to ignition. 8. Orient key to hole in ignition. 9. Insert key into ignition. 10. Turn the key. 11. Remove hand from key, move hand to shift lever etc.
Procedure for starting a Prius with SE/SS:
1. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door. 2. Move hand to Start button. 3. Push Start button. 4. Remove hand from Start button, move hand to shift lever etc.
As for the windows rolling down with the key fob, that is a very nice feature that will provide Accord owners the benefits of an additional 15 seconds of air cooling of their cars. Personally I wouldn't put it at the top of my requirements list for a car, but if the car had it I wouldn't mind.
> Does the Prius [HSD] open the windows on a hot day by itself or via Key fob?
The real question is: DOES PRIUS HSD PROVIDE YOU WITH A WAY OF RAPIDLY VENTING HOT AIR TRAPPED INSIDE?
The answer is yes. Just open the hatch and any one door of your choosing. That will cool off the car much faster than even opening all the windows could.
1. Remember where you put your keys. 2A. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys. 2B. If you remember where you put your keys, extract keys from where you left them (pocket, purse etc.). 3. (May be needed in winter) Remove bulky gloves or mittens. 4. Unlock door using little button on keyfob or key (depending on method employed, this takes several steps that are omitted here for sake of brevity). 5. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door. 6. If you used keyfob to unlock the door, select ignition key from the keyring. 7. Move key to ignition. 8. Orient key to hole in ignition. 9. Insert key into ignition. 10. Remove hand from key 11. Find Start Button 12. Push star button 13. Remove hand from key, move hand to shift lever etc.
___You missed a few steps with the Prius II w/ SE/SS then ...
1. Remember where you put your keys. 2. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys. 3. If you thought your keys were in your pocket or purse but were not, head back into the house and begin the panic. 4. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door. 5. Move hand to Start button. 6. Push Start button. 7. Remove hand from Start button, move hand to shift lever etc.
___It does appear to make more sense to spend $450.00 more for the SE/SS option then not on the Prius II.
___As for the Accord’s power window down from FOB feature, I didn’t place it in any list but thought it was worth mentioning since I discovered it just a few days ago myself. It does add another amenity to the $22,000 Accord EX w/ leather column vs. the slower, smaller, lesser handling, higher cost initially and longer term, and possibly higher polluter overall Prius II?
Yes, I knew that. Those that do not have the SE/SS option have to place the key in one slot and push the start button in another. The lesser optioned two placement start procedure is nuts imho.
I know! It's nuts that BMW, Cadillac, and the new Chevrolet Corvette are all following likewise. Damn those econoboxes!
This is before you get into the car and powering down the windows like most everyone else has to do in the heat of summer. Does the Prius II have this option?
No, I wish it did. My jetta did. Does the Accord have the bluetooth option? My Prius does. Does the Accord have SS/SE at all? My Prius does. Does it come with the remote starter thing? The malibu does. And the malibu is cheaper! Wow... Honda better fix the Accord fast!
"Find Start button"--that's a good one! Might as well add a step, "Find steering wheel."
You don't know how SE/SS works I guess. There is no need to find your keys, assuming you had them on your person when you went out that day (if you left them someplace in your house, office etc. then heaven help you in either case).
Since any Prius you or your neighbors would by would have SE/SS, the cost is kind of moot, isn't it? Might as well think of it as a standard feature.
As for the "smaller, slower" stuff, I really do not want to subject the other contributors here to THAT again, so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
___If that were the case, how come I have to keep adding steps to your starting procedures? Maybe you don’t know how any car starts?
There is no need to find your keys, assuming you had them on your person when you went out that day (if you left them someplace in your house, office etc. then heaven help you in either case).
___With a regular automobile, at least you know you did not have your keys before you walked out of the house. I like SE/SS but considering the price, amenities, and capabilities of the automobile, the Prius II doesn’t add up in comparison to the Accord DX, LX, or EX.
As for the "smaller, slower" stuff, I really do not want to subject the other contributors here to THAT again, so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
___Facts are facts but at least you did remove your head out of the area where the sun didn’t shine and stunk real bad I hope so anyway ;-)
So, let me get this straight. We're arguing about whether a system that lets you keep your key chain in your pocket or purse, unlock the door by grabbing the handle, and start the car by pushing a (large) button on the dash, is good or not?
I was reading about the C6 (new Corvette) yesterday and the article highlighted the smart entry and start feature (or whatever GM calls it). But that's on a $40k+ sports car, so maybe it's OK there--just not on a $25k family car.
Hard to believe but true, yea if you don't have the key, smart start or not your gonna need it. What really gets me though are people that say the MSRP is too high then they want to know why no auto down windows, moonroof & leather.
Once again, the purpose is to RAPIDLY MAKE THE CAR COMFORTABLE.
For those in the south, driving with the windows open won't accomplish that. So no matter how many times you repeat the same comment, it still doesn't apply.
There they insist the A/C has to be used. So the windows are worthless. Instead, you pop the hatch & door(s) for a moment. Then you close them, jump inside, and crack the A/C.
Face it, no matter how wide you open the windows, it won't remove the humidity... so those of us near water require the A/C too, not just those in the south. That is why being clear about purpose is so important. Stop being vague.
so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
What really gets me though are people that say the MSRP is too high then they want to know why no auto down windows, moonroof & leather.
___I am not sure I understand your statement in regards to the Accord comparison. The price of the Prius II w/out these features is already much higher to purchase and hold onto in comparison to an Accord EX-L that does include these items.
Once again, the purpose is to RAPIDLY MAKE THE CAR COMFORTABLE.
___And the answer to following question was what?
DOES THE Prius II OPEN THE WINDOWS ON A HOT DAY BY ITSELF OR VIA KEY FOB?
There they insist the A/C has to be used. So the windows are worthless. Instead, you pop the hatch & door(s) for a moment. Then you close them, jump inside, and crack the A/C.
___Now you are saying on a hot day you are opening up the hatch and doors, closing the hatch and doors, and then driving off? Why do you need SE/SS given in the summer given you are running around the car opening and closing up hatches and doors before you take off? I guess you only use you windows for picking up fast food at the drive through ;-)
For those in the south, driving with the windows open won't accomplish that. So no matter how many times you repeat the same comment, it still doesn't apply.
___Repeat which comment? The question posed above?
Face it, no matter how wide you open the windows, it won't remove the humidity
___You really should stick to computer programming because physics isn’t your forte.
___That is 2 of 3 (#271 and #281) with nothing but slams and complaints and absolutely nothing to do with the comparison?
___So how does the Accord DX, LX, and much more luxuriously equipped EX stack up vs. the Prius II package 1 - 9? Is Bluetooth, TCS, and SS/SE worth the much higher initial price and higher cost to own including the gas savings? Didn’t you purchase a Hyundai or something instead of the Prius II you had placed money down on? I don’t remember the details but you thought the Prius II was not worth it by comparison to something else, right?
The real question is: DOES PRIUS HSD PROVIDE YOU WITH A WAY OF RAPIDLY VENTING HOT AIR TRAPPED INSIDE?
I say the "Real Question", is how fast does the Air Conditioner put out cold air? We have an old 1990 Mazda 626. It is blasting cold air by the time we reach our gate at the bottom of our hill. We test drove a new Toyota Avalon that took close to 4 minutes to put out cold air.
So my question to all you Prius people is how long from the time you take off in 95 degree weather does it take your AC to put out cold air.
Our old 1990 LS400 takes about a minute and a half. It's not as fast as the Mazda.
Speaking of being on topic... I guess you didn't notice my post in this discussion awhile back in which I gave a detailed comparison of the Prius to several other 5-door hatchbacks, including the Elantra GT. It's not a Prius, but at $13k + TTL it meets my needs while fitting my budget. Is the Prius a better car? Definitely. Would I rather own a Prius? Yes. Is it worth paying $9,000 more, to me, now? No.
My 4 banger Civic puts out cold air within seconds in 95 degree weather, 5 minutes to cool down the passenger cabin, does the 04 Prius start putting out cold air when you hit the (A/C) switch ?
___I have long forgotten the exact details of your Hyundai purchase. At least your initial purchase price and TCO is better then that of the Prius II. Just like the Accord DX, LX, and EX except they are a better car and I would rather own one then a Prius II if I had to purchase either today.
The initial purchase price and TCO of many cars, new and used, are lower than for the Prius. What is your point? "Better" is relative. Better for you, yes. Better for others, maybe not. Not everyone in the world has your requirements for a car.
The initial purchase price and TCO of many cars, new and used, are lower than for the Prius. What is your point?
___Because the Honda Accord DX, LX, and EX not only offer a much lower initial and TCO cost(s), they offer larger size, superior handling, superior performance, more luxury options depending on trim, and are safer. What point did you miss?
"Better" is relative. Better for you, yes. Better for others, maybe not. Not everyone in the world has your requirements for a car.
___You can add “better” according to CR’s, C&D, and almost 400,000 Accord purchasers last year as well. They also are not everyone in the world but they do account for something?
A young couple at church with two children, have an Elantra Hatchback. They absolutely love it. I imagine a Prius would be out of their budget. At $9k more it would be about $180 more per month for 5 years. That would buy enough gas for about 29,000 miles per year. Or 145,000 miles over the life of the contract. Smart couple I'd say.
Stick a hatchback on the Accord, drop the price about $4000 and I'll think about it.
Some facts: CR recommends the Prius over the Accord for family car buyers for whom fuel economy is important--demonstrating that the "better" car is relative to the buyer's requirements. To my knowledge, C/D has not done a comparo on the Accord vs. the Prius. They do rate the Prius one of the "10Best" cars available, however.
How many Accord buyers wanted to buy a Prius but could not due to limited availability and long waits, and thus settled for the Accord? More people bought an F-series pickup than an Accord last year. That makes the F-series better than the Accord, in your opinion, correct?
I would say the "F" Series Pickups with the 6.0 diesel is superior to anything Toyota or Honda has ever built...... In my not so humble opinion... PS I really don't like Ford either
Stick a hatchback on the Accord, drop the price about $4000 and I'll think about it.
___So if your criteria was price alone, the Prius II would have to drop by $9,000?
Recommendations
"The 2004 version of the Prius is a considerable step up from the first generation, with a spacious interior, quicker acceleration, improved gas mileage, and cleaner emissions, all for about the same price," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports Auto Test facility in East Haddam, Connecticut. "However, if your needs require a well-rounded family sedan, there are several models, including the 4-cylinder versions of the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Mazda6 and Nissan Altima, that have scored better overall in our tests."
___Here is another for you:
Safety
NHTSA:
Honda Accord: 5/5/4/5/4 Stars Toyota Prius II: 5/4/4/4/4 Stars
the Prius over the Accord for family car buyers for whom fuel economy is important
___Did you purchase the Hyundai Elantra over the Prius II because of fuel economy? Those that do are either uninformed about the total costs involved or apparently only care about fuel economy given CR’s overall higher scoring for the Accord.
More people bought an F-series pickup than an Accord last year. That makes the F-series better than the Accord.
___More people also purchased the Camry and Corolla then the Prius II so do you think the Corolla and Camry are better then the Prius II? All the Accord, Camry, and Corolla purchasers had a choice to purchase the Prius but decided against it for one reason or other(s).
As I have already explained, price was a major criterion in my purchase of the Elantra GT but not my only one. But I don't see the need to repeat myself ten or twenty times. You've already brought up the quote from Mr. Champion (in which he makes a mistake about what his magazine has reported), and the NHTSA ratings. How many times are you going to repeat them?
Since your sole purpose here is clearly to play mind games, using repetitive minutae and mis-quoted posts to beat people into submission, I'll let you have this thread all to yourself. Knock yourself out.
For those of you who have purchased a car since October 2003, did the current-gen Prius factor into your decision at all? That is, if considered a Prius but bought something else, why? And if you bought a Prius, what other vehicles did you consider and why did you choose the Prius? Here's what I said on that question: backy Aug 8, 2004 7:07pm
Don't worry. I find it rather entertaining that ACCORD is now the "vehicle of choice". Previously, it was FOCUS. Before that, it was INSIGHT. And before that, it was COROLLA.
That really makes me wonder which vehicle will be next and how soon that abrupt change to argue in favor of something else will come.
Compared to a similarly priced LX Accord, here are some Prius advantages:
Longer drivetrain warranty (5/60 vs. 3/36) Longer seat belt/airbag warranty (5/60 vs. 3/36) 8/100 Hybrid system warranty Alloy wheels standard Rear window wiper Hatchback versatility with 60/40 seat vs. 1-piece/trunk Heated mirrors Steering wheel climate controls Automatic climate control with humidity control Outside temperature gauge Trip computer Brake assist and traction control Smaller turning radius More rear seat legroom Larger cargo space Better gas mileage! Lower emissions Federal tax deduction
Hondas aren't what they used to be. Would take the Prius over the Honda any day of the week. Cost not an issue. Heck... Honda doesn't even offer VSC! Ford? Forget that!! Cheers.
The Jetta Wagon is a better comparison. Jetta has a longer B to B warranty 4/50k miles and a much longer rust warranty 12 years. That could be a big item. As one poster is already seeing rust on his Prius that is less than a year old. To the important aspects. The Jetta has more room for stuff by double. It out handles the Prius. Has 4 wheel disc brakes. I could go on and on. You all know it is more car for the money. The only thing the Prius has going for it is good mileage for drivers willing to nurse it around town and keep the tires at precisely the correct pressure. Also debatable is the emissions advantage, when looking at the whole picture.
When I look at the pictures of the EV-1 cars smashed and stacked I wonder if the Prius will have the same fate. If Toyota gives up this venture for lack of profit, is this what you will see????
The Jetta Wagon is a nice car, but a couple of other major advantages the Prius has over it is rear-seat legroom and predicted relilability. The Jetta has "well below average" reliability according to CR, while the Prius has well above average reliability. In gas engine form (1.8T and V6 at least), the Jetta out-accelerates the Prius, but the Prius is quicker than the TDi Jetta. Braking performance is equal, according to MT's 60-0 measurements of 125 feet for both cars.
I'm not sure why you say that the Prius' emissions advantage is "debatable". Prius offers AT-PZEV emissions performance in all 50 states. The Jetta Wagon's standard gas engine is only ULEV, plus it burns much more fuel per mile than does the Prius. And I don't think you would debate that the emissions of the Prius are lower than those the TDi Jetta's.
There is no doubt the emissions from the Prius are one of the lowest of any car. The debate is emissions during manufacture compared to other vehicles. I have only seen the one graph which shows the Prius polluting more in manufacture.
Reliability is an issue with VW that I think they are trying to correct with longer warranties bumper to bumper. If I were to buy a VW TDI I would only run ULSD which is what is used in Europe from my understanding.
I really believe if the Hybrids were money makers the auto companies would be really boosting production. According to Toyota they have no plans to increase production of the Prius until next year. I think they have gotten into a dilemma. I don't believe they thought the Prius would take off as it has. Generally speaking for every Prius they sell they potentially lose the sale of one of their other more lucrative cars. If you were in business which would you push? I am sure whatever made you the most money. I'm sure they make more on a Camry or Solara than a Prius.
The Jetta Wagon is a better comparison. Jetta has a longer B to B warranty 4/50k miles and a much longer rust warranty 12 years.
I can talk about this a little.. I went from a Jetta GLS 1.8t to a Prius. There's no doubt the Jetta outhandles the Prius.... and no doubt the Jetta does have a nicer interior (soft touch everywhere).
But... the Jetta has higher maintainence costs, and some sort of funky oil (at least the turbos) that only the dealer can get. And in the 3.5 years I owned mine I had 3 window regulator failures, one ignition pack replacement, 2 airflow sensor failures, 1 temperature sensor failure, 1 brakelight sensor failure, etc. And the sad part is, I'm sure I'm missing a few. Those are a lot of repairs for a 3.5 year old car. Do the math, you're looking at a major repair around once a quarter. And while most were covered under warranty, it's a lot of time to have your car in the shop and a hassle.
Do I miss the way the Jetta handles? Absolutely. Do I think Toyota dropped the ball with the standard tires on the Prius? Yep. Does anyone have any clue why overseas versions of the Prius get 4 wheel disc brakes and US versions get disc/drum? Am I happy with my Prius despite those issues? Mostly.
I haven't yet seen any data comparing the full-life-cycle emissions (construction of the factory through disposal of the car) for any other particular car compared to the Prius. The graph that was presented earlier provided averages for ICE cars vs. the Prius. I'm not sure that study included disposal/recycling emissions; maybe it did. Do you have any data for the Jetta Wagon in particular? Is ULSD available in the U.S. now?
Long warranties don't by themselves help improve reliability, but at least a problem is more likely to be covered. I'd rather see both a long warranty and significant improvements in reliability, on which VW has yet to deliver according to CR's surveys and the reports I see from owners on the VW discussions here. VW makes some fine cars, but I will steer away from them until they improve in reliability.
Your statement about "... if the Hybrids were money makers the auto companies would be really boosting production" seems to contradict actual events. Other automakers are boosting production of hybrids--witness all the hybrid models available now or due out in the next year or so. As you noted, Toyota is increasing production of the Prius. They already bumped up production levels during 2004 and will increase them again in 2005. As fixed costs are distributed over more units, costs per unit decrease and profits increase. Also, spreading development costs over more units helps recoup development costs faster. Toyota is not only spreading HSD development costs over more Priuses (Prii?), it is spreading them across other models that use HSD, like the RX400h and Highlander Hybrid, and others in the future--including the Camry.
Of course the more expensive models like luxury cars, trucks, and SUVs have more per-unit profit. But automakers realize they can just sell those kinds of vehicles, because not everyone wants them or can afford them. Automakers need less-expensive models to entice these buyers, and build brand loyalty, even if per-unit profits are less. Also, the smaller cars help the automakers meet their CAFE targets.
I agree with all you say. However these additional Toyota hybrid models have been bumped to a later date more than once. It looks like none will materialize until the middle of 2005 if then. I don't believe they increased the Prius production for 2004 past the original 120k units. They just sent more to the US market. They are hedging on increased production even in 2005 from what I read. Time will tell.
Where I live ULSD is available at the SOCO stations and ARCO. It is ECD-1 less than 15 PPM sulfur. I run it in my Kubota tractor.
The fact that you are in denial of that and also refuse to acknowledge that limitation caused by the Ovonics lawsuit as well as third-party supplied parts is something you're going to have to learn to accept.
FWIW, I think there was an actual increase in Prius production during 2004. I remember press reports about adding shifts at the factory in Japan to produce more. As I recall, the original target shipments to the U.S. for MY 2004 were 36,000, and it was bumped to 47,000. It is true the Toyota SUV hybrids have been delayed, but that delay doesn't concern me (maybe it would if I were waiting for one), as I'd rather seen Toyota get the new models right and if that takes a little more time, fine. Also, other automakers like Ford, GM, and Honda have stepped in with more hybrid production. So I think comparisons of the Prius to the EV-1 are overly pessimistic. I don't recall tens of thousands of people lining up on waiting lists just for the chance to own (or lease) an EV-1.
P.S. There was a typo on my post #310. I meant to say, "But automakers realize they can't just sell those kinds of vehicles, because not everyone wants them or can afford them."
I can't believe how people write the same stuff ALL the time on these boards. Every professional article I read mentions that the supplier of the Prius traction battery is the primary reason for the delay in getting units out. I trust that in a year's time, this will be remedied. Folks will have to accept that hybrids are here to stay. I look forward to eventually getting one.
It is a fact that total Prius production is going up by 50%. The US division is probably going to get an even larger increase in their allocation. Our dealer has already been told that the regional allocation will be going up substantially by winter.
What makes you so sure that the battery situation will improve? Proof is in the seeing. I'm not seeing any improvement in the situation. It is not the same battery company that Ford is depending on, yet they have had up to a years delay since the Escape was first due. Maybe the materials to make these heavy duty batteries is very rare. The only denial is on the part of those that cannot accept that supply is not meeting demand. I imagine you will see this sort of dialog until the situation reverses itself. Then we can all go harass the people on other boards.
you are correct there also. I think they re-directed some of the production and did work overtime to increase output. I'm sure the hybrids will not suffer the same fate of the EV-1. It was an experiment with electric cars. I think it was a bit before it's time and the marketing did not put any responsibility on the driver. There was no infrastructure to support the EV-1. The hybrids do not suffer from that problem. I think the Civic GX is also suffering from supply problems with re-fueling stations for CNG. I think I have mentioned before I liked my two test drives in the first Prius they brought to San Diego. I just have a hard time believing that Toyota is on the up & up with production. Not denial, mistrust of corporate giants.
No matter how many times you continue to see the data in print, you keep refusing to acknowledge it
John, Print means nothing. They have printed that the Lexus hybrid SUV would be out this last Spring. It was not. Until I see quiet cars and SUVs running up and down the highway & byways it is all HYPE. That is reality. In my driving around San Diego I have not seen more than a half a dozen Prius. That is not many in a city of 2 million people.
I can relate. In early '99 I went to my local Honda dealer to drive the all-new Odyssey--I needed a van to replace my '91 Caravan 4-banger. I was told that due to limited supply, not only did they have no van for me to test-drive, but if I wanted one I could enter my name into their "lottery" and if I was lucky I'd get one in a few months. I leased a Grand Caravan Sport and was very pleased with it. Then in late '03 I started looking for a van to replace the GCS, which was going off-lease soon, and went shopping for the all-new Sienna at my local Toyota dealer. I was told that supplies were not meeting demand and the price was MSRP, take it or leave it--if I could find the van I wanted, which was tough because I wanted a lightly-optioned LE. That's when I decided I could live without a minivan and started looking at hatchbacks like the Prius.
Point is, this is not a Prius problem or even a hybrid problem. It's the old law of supply and demand, and the free enterprise system, in full force.
Comments
___Yes, I knew that. Those that do not have the SE/SS option have to place the key in one slot and push the start button in another. The lesser optioned two placement start procedure is nuts imho.
___In regards to the mowers, they start like normal cars. Place the key in and turn unlike the non-SE/SS equipped Prius II’s. And they will cut 6” grass to 3” in a 60” swath at 8.6 mph for ¼ of the price ;-)
___As for the Accord, it has a power windows down from the FOB so when its hot, your windows are open as you unlock while walking up to it. This is before you get into the car and powering down the windows like most everyone else has to do in the heat of summer. Does the Prius II have this option?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
1. Insert key into ignition.
2. Turn key.
Procedure for starting a Prius not equipped with Smart Entry & Start:
1. Insert keyfob into slot.
2. Push Start button (located directly above the keyfob slot)
Procedure for starting a Prius equipped with Smart Entry & Start:
1. Push Start button.
As for the Accord... you mean you actually have to get the keyfob out of your pocket/purse and push a button to unlock the doors (and lower the windows if you want)? On the Prius with SE/SS, you just walk up to the car and open the door.
Clearly pushing a button is much easier than squeeze & twist.
Some people have a difficult time with the traditional ignition start. Having a button instead totally eliminates that need for fine muscle control.
JOHN
___You missed a few steps in regards to the Prius II w/out SE/SS.
1. Insert keyfob into slot.
2. Remove hand from key
3. Place finger on Start Button
4. Push Start button (located directly above the keyfob slot)
___Not only is this unintuitive and non-ergonomic, it is plain dumb. Go watch a Prius test drive from the uninformed just once and you will see the problem up close and personal.
As for the Accord... you mean you actually have to get the keyfob out of your pocket/purse and push a button to unlock the doors (and lower the windows if you want)? On the Prius with SE/SS, you just walk up to the car and open the door.
___So the Prius II opens the windows on a hot day by itself or via Key FOB? Maybe you didn’t understand the facts as posted or the question asked afterwards? Does the Prius II have the capability to open the windows via FOB or doesn’t it?
He's trying to evade the original question, which was: Which is easier?
___John, here it is again so you cannot evade the question. Does the Prius II open the windows on a hot day by itself or via Key fob? I don’t know about the Prius II but window roll down via FOB is a std. feature with the Accord LX on up. I thought it was not only handy but kind of cute when I found out about it the other day. SE/SS is easier although I don’t remember mentioning this either way so why did you? Then again, we are comparing a $22,000 Accord EX w/ leather that is faster, larger, handles better, costs less initially and over the longer term, and possibly emits less pollution overall.
Some people have a difficult time with the traditional ignition start. Having a button instead totally eliminates that need for fine muscle control.
___Funny how these people you say have had trouble with inserting a key and turning it have had trouble over the past 100 years. How many corpses are still sitting in their cars at the dealership lots trying to figure out how to start their brand new traditional car w/ a traditional start procedure?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Procedure for starting most cars:
1. Remember where you put your keys.
2A. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys.
2B. If you remember where you put your keys, extract keys from where you left them (pocket, purse etc.).
3. (May be needed in winter) Remove bulky gloves or mittens.
4. Unlock door using little button on keyfob or key (depending on method employed, this takes several steps that are omitted here for sake of brevity).
5. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door.
6. If you used keyfob to unlock the door, select ignition key from the keyring.
7. Move key to ignition.
8. Orient key to hole in ignition.
9. Insert key into ignition.
10. Turn the key.
11. Remove hand from key, move hand to shift lever etc.
Procedure for starting a Prius with SE/SS:
1. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door.
2. Move hand to Start button.
3. Push Start button.
4. Remove hand from Start button, move hand to shift lever etc.
As for the windows rolling down with the key fob, that is a very nice feature that will provide Accord owners the benefits of an additional 15 seconds of air cooling of their cars. Personally I wouldn't put it at the top of my requirements list for a car, but if the car had it I wouldn't mind.
The real question is: DOES PRIUS HSD PROVIDE YOU WITH A WAY OF RAPIDLY VENTING HOT AIR TRAPPED INSIDE?
The answer is yes. Just open the hatch and any one door of your choosing. That will cool off the car much faster than even opening all the windows could.
JOHN
___Procedure for starting Prius II w/out SE/SS:
1. Remember where you put your keys.
2A. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys.
2B. If you remember where you put your keys, extract keys from where you left them (pocket, purse etc.).
3. (May be needed in winter) Remove bulky gloves or mittens.
4. Unlock door using little button on keyfob or key (depending on method employed, this takes several steps that are omitted here for sake of brevity).
5. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door.
6. If you used keyfob to unlock the door, select ignition key from the keyring.
7. Move key to ignition.
8. Orient key to hole in ignition.
9. Insert key into ignition.
10. Remove hand from key
11. Find Start Button
12. Push star button
13. Remove hand from key, move hand to shift lever etc.
___You missed a few steps with the Prius II w/ SE/SS then ...
1. Remember where you put your keys.
2. If you do not remember where you put your keys, PANIC and end procedure until you remember where you put your keys.
3. If you thought your keys were in your pocket or purse but were not, head back into the house and begin the panic.
4. Open driver's door and sit down in driver's seat; close the door.
5. Move hand to Start button.
6. Push Start button.
7. Remove hand from Start button, move hand to shift lever etc.
___It does appear to make more sense to spend $450.00 more for the SE/SS option then not on the Prius II.
___As for the Accord’s power window down from FOB feature, I didn’t place it in any list but thought it was worth mentioning since I discovered it just a few days ago myself. It does add another amenity to the $22,000 Accord EX w/ leather column vs. the slower, smaller, lesser handling, higher cost initially and longer term, and possibly higher polluter overall Prius II?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I know! It's nuts that BMW, Cadillac, and the new Chevrolet Corvette are all following likewise. Damn those econoboxes!
This is before you get into the car and powering down the windows like most everyone else has to do in the heat of summer. Does the Prius II have this option?
No, I wish it did. My jetta did. Does the Accord have the bluetooth option? My Prius does. Does the Accord have SS/SE at all? My Prius does. Does it come with the remote starter thing? The malibu does. And the malibu is cheaper! Wow... Honda better fix the Accord fast!
You don't know how SE/SS works I guess. There is no need to find your keys, assuming you had them on your person when you went out that day (if you left them someplace in your house, office etc. then heaven help you in either case).
Since any Prius you or your neighbors would by would have SE/SS, the cost is kind of moot, isn't it? Might as well think of it as a standard feature.
As for the "smaller, slower" stuff, I really do not want to subject the other contributors here to THAT again, so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
The real question is: DOES PRIUS HSD PROVIDE YOU WITH A WAY OF RAPIDLY VENTING HOT AIR TRAPPED INSIDE?
___No, the question was in your capital letter style, DOES THE Prius II OPEN THE WINDOWS ON A HOT DAY BY ITSELF OR VIA KEY FOB?
Just open the hatch and any one door of your choosing. That will cool off the car much faster than even opening all the windows could.
___On the Accord LX or above, you just push a button on the FOB, get in and drive off?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
You don't know how SE/SS works I guess.
___If that were the case, how come I have to keep adding steps to your starting procedures? Maybe you don’t know how any car starts?
There is no need to find your keys, assuming you had them on your person when you went out that day (if you left them someplace in your house, office etc. then heaven help you in either case).
___With a regular automobile, at least you know you did not have your keys before you walked out of the house. I like SE/SS but considering the price, amenities, and capabilities of the automobile, the Prius II doesn’t add up in comparison to the Accord DX, LX, or EX.
As for the "smaller, slower" stuff, I really do not want to subject the other contributors here to THAT again, so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
___Facts are facts but at least you did remove your head out of the area where the sun didn’t shine and stunk real bad I hope so anyway ;-)
___Wayne R. Gerdes
For those in the south, driving with the windows open won't accomplish that. So no matter how many times you repeat the same comment, it still doesn't apply.
There they insist the A/C has to be used. So the windows are worthless. Instead, you pop the hatch & door(s) for a moment. Then you close them, jump inside, and crack the A/C.
Face it, no matter how wide you open the windows, it won't remove the humidity... so those of us near water require the A/C too, not just those in the south. That is why being clear about purpose is so important. Stop being vague.
JOHN
so how about if we find something else to talk about before I start hearing moooing sounds and start thinking about whether I need to get a check up at my dermatologist.
___What were you saying again :-(
___Wayne R. Gerdes
What really gets me though are people that say the MSRP is too high then they want to know why no auto down windows, moonroof & leather.
___I am not sure I understand your statement in regards to the Accord comparison. The price of the Prius II w/out these features is already much higher to purchase and hold onto in comparison to an Accord EX-L that does include these items.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Once again, the purpose is to RAPIDLY MAKE THE CAR COMFORTABLE.
___And the answer to following question was what?
DOES THE Prius II OPEN THE WINDOWS ON A HOT DAY BY ITSELF OR VIA KEY FOB?
There they insist the A/C has to be used. So the windows are worthless. Instead, you pop the hatch & door(s) for a moment. Then you close them, jump inside, and crack the A/C.
___Now you are saying on a hot day you are opening up the hatch and doors, closing the hatch and doors, and then driving off? Why do you need SE/SS given in the summer given you are running around the car opening and closing up hatches and doors before you take off? I guess you only use you windows for picking up fast food at the drive through ;-)
For those in the south, driving with the windows open won't accomplish that. So no matter how many times you repeat the same comment, it still doesn't apply.
___Repeat which comment? The question posed above?
Face it, no matter how wide you open the windows, it won't remove the humidity
___You really should stick to computer programming because physics isn’t your forte.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___That is 2 of 3 (#271 and #281) with nothing but slams and complaints and absolutely nothing to do with the comparison?
___So how does the Accord DX, LX, and much more luxuriously equipped EX stack up vs. the Prius II package 1 - 9? Is Bluetooth, TCS, and SS/SE worth the much higher initial price and higher cost to own including the gas savings? Didn’t you purchase a Hyundai or something instead of the Prius II you had placed money down on? I don’t remember the details but you thought the Prius II was not worth it by comparison to something else, right?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I say the "Real Question", is how fast does the Air Conditioner put out cold air? We have an old 1990 Mazda 626. It is blasting cold air by the time we reach our gate at the bottom of our hill. We test drove a new Toyota Avalon that took close to 4 minutes to put out cold air.
So my question to all you Prius people is how long from the time you take off in 95 degree weather does it take your AC to put out cold air.
Our old 1990 LS400 takes about a minute and a half. It's not as fast as the Mazda.
___I have long forgotten the exact details of your Hyundai purchase. At least your initial purchase price and TCO is better then that of the Prius II. Just like the Accord DX, LX, and EX except they are a better car and I would rather own one then a Prius II if I had to purchase either today.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The initial purchase price and TCO of many cars, new and used, are lower than for the Prius. What is your point?
___Because the Honda Accord DX, LX, and EX not only offer a much lower initial and TCO cost(s), they offer larger size, superior handling, superior performance, more luxury options depending on trim, and are safer. What point did you miss?
"Better" is relative. Better for you, yes. Better for others, maybe not. Not everyone in the world has your requirements for a car.
___You can add “better” according to CR’s, C&D, and almost 400,000 Accord purchasers last year as well. They also are not everyone in the world but they do account for something?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Some facts: CR recommends the Prius over the Accord for family car buyers for whom fuel economy is important--demonstrating that the "better" car is relative to the buyer's requirements. To my knowledge, C/D has not done a comparo on the Accord vs. the Prius. They do rate the Prius one of the "10Best" cars available, however.
How many Accord buyers wanted to buy a Prius but could not due to limited availability and long waits, and thus settled for the Accord? More people bought an F-series pickup than an Accord last year. That makes the F-series better than the Accord, in your opinion, correct?
PS
I really don't like Ford either
Stick a hatchback on the Accord, drop the price about $4000 and I'll think about it.
___So if your criteria was price alone, the Prius II would have to drop by $9,000?
Recommendations
"The 2004 version of the Prius is a considerable step up from the first generation, with a spacious interior, quicker acceleration, improved gas mileage, and cleaner emissions, all for about the same price," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports Auto Test facility in East Haddam, Connecticut. "However, if your needs require a well-rounded family sedan, there are several models, including the 4-cylinder versions of the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Mazda6 and Nissan Altima, that have scored better overall in our tests."
___Here is another for you:
Safety
NHTSA:
Honda Accord: 5/5/4/5/4 Stars
Toyota Prius II: 5/4/4/4/4 Stars
the Prius over the Accord for family car buyers for whom fuel economy is important
___Did you purchase the Hyundai Elantra over the Prius II because of fuel economy? Those that do are either uninformed about the total costs involved or apparently only care about fuel economy given CR’s overall higher scoring for the Accord.
More people bought an F-series pickup than an Accord last year. That makes the F-series better than the Accord.
___More people also purchased the Camry and Corolla then the Prius II so do you think the Corolla and Camry are better then the Prius II? All the Accord, Camry, and Corolla purchasers had a choice to purchase the Prius but decided against it for one reason or other(s).
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Since your sole purpose here is clearly to play mind games, using repetitive minutae and mis-quoted posts to beat people into submission, I'll let you have this thread all to yourself. Knock yourself out.
backy Aug 8, 2004 7:07pm
That really makes me wonder which vehicle will be next and how soon that abrupt change to argue in favor of something else will come.
JOHN
Longer drivetrain warranty (5/60 vs. 3/36)
Longer seat belt/airbag warranty (5/60 vs. 3/36)
8/100 Hybrid system warranty
Alloy wheels standard
Rear window wiper
Hatchback versatility with 60/40 seat vs. 1-piece/trunk
Heated mirrors
Steering wheel climate controls
Automatic climate control with humidity control
Outside temperature gauge
Trip computer
Brake assist and traction control
Smaller turning radius
More rear seat legroom
Larger cargo space
Better gas mileage!
Lower emissions
Federal tax deduction
Anyone want to add?
To the important aspects. The Jetta has more room for stuff by double. It out handles the Prius. Has 4 wheel disc brakes. I could go on and on. You all know it is more car for the money. The only thing the Prius has going for it is good mileage for drivers willing to nurse it around town and keep the tires at precisely the correct pressure. Also debatable is the emissions advantage, when looking at the whole picture.
When I look at the pictures of the EV-1 cars smashed and stacked I wonder if the Prius will have the same fate. If Toyota gives up this venture for lack of profit, is this what you will see????
http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm
I'm not sure why you say that the Prius' emissions advantage is "debatable". Prius offers AT-PZEV emissions performance in all 50 states. The Jetta Wagon's standard gas engine is only ULEV, plus it burns much more fuel per mile than does the Prius. And I don't think you would debate that the emissions of the Prius are lower than those the TDi Jetta's.
Reliability is an issue with VW that I think they are trying to correct with longer warranties bumper to bumper. If I were to buy a VW TDI I would only run ULSD which is what is used in Europe from my understanding.
I really believe if the Hybrids were money makers the auto companies would be really boosting production. According to Toyota they have no plans to increase production of the Prius until next year. I think they have gotten into a dilemma. I don't believe they thought the Prius would take off as it has. Generally speaking for every Prius they sell they potentially lose the sale of one of their other more lucrative cars. If you were in business which would you push? I am sure whatever made you the most money. I'm sure they make more on a Camry or Solara than a Prius.
I can talk about this a little.. I went from a Jetta GLS 1.8t to a Prius. There's no doubt the Jetta outhandles the Prius.... and no doubt the Jetta does have a nicer interior (soft touch everywhere).
But... the Jetta has higher maintainence costs, and some sort of funky oil (at least the turbos) that only the dealer can get. And in the 3.5 years I owned mine I had 3 window regulator failures, one ignition pack replacement, 2 airflow sensor failures, 1 temperature sensor failure, 1 brakelight sensor failure, etc. And the sad part is, I'm sure I'm missing a few. Those are a lot of repairs for a 3.5 year old car. Do the math, you're looking at a major repair around once a quarter. And while most were covered under warranty, it's a lot of time to have your car in the shop and a hassle.
Do I miss the way the Jetta handles? Absolutely. Do I think Toyota dropped the ball with the standard tires on the Prius? Yep. Does anyone have any clue why overseas versions of the Prius get 4 wheel disc brakes and US versions get disc/drum? Am I happy with my Prius despite those issues? Mostly.
Long warranties don't by themselves help improve reliability, but at least a problem is more likely to be covered. I'd rather see both a long warranty and significant improvements in reliability, on which VW has yet to deliver according to CR's surveys and the reports I see from owners on the VW discussions here. VW makes some fine cars, but I will steer away from them until they improve in reliability.
Your statement about "... if the Hybrids were money makers the auto companies would be really boosting production" seems to contradict actual events. Other automakers are boosting production of hybrids--witness all the hybrid models available now or due out in the next year or so. As you noted, Toyota is increasing production of the Prius. They already bumped up production levels during 2004 and will increase them again in 2005. As fixed costs are distributed over more units, costs per unit decrease and profits increase. Also, spreading development costs over more units helps recoup development costs faster. Toyota is not only spreading HSD development costs over more Priuses (Prii?), it is spreading them across other models that use HSD, like the RX400h and Highlander Hybrid, and others in the future--including the Camry.
Of course the more expensive models like luxury cars, trucks, and SUVs have more per-unit profit. But automakers realize they can just sell those kinds of vehicles, because not everyone wants them or can afford them. Automakers need less-expensive models to entice these buyers, and build brand loyalty, even if per-unit profits are less. Also, the smaller cars help the automakers meet their CAFE targets.
Where I live ULSD is available at the SOCO stations and ARCO. It is ECD-1 less than 15 PPM sulfur. I run it in my Kubota tractor.
The fact that you are in denial of that and also refuse to acknowledge that limitation caused by the Ovonics lawsuit as well as third-party supplied parts is something you're going to have to learn to accept.
JOHN
P.S. There was a typo on my post #310. I meant to say, "But automakers realize they can't just sell those kinds of vehicles, because not everyone wants them or can afford them."
you are correct there also. I think they re-directed some of the production and did work overtime to increase output. I'm sure the hybrids will not suffer the same fate of the EV-1. It was an experiment with electric cars. I think it was a bit before it's time and the marketing did not put any responsibility on the driver. There was no infrastructure to support the EV-1. The hybrids do not suffer from that problem. I think the Civic GX is also suffering from supply problems with re-fueling stations for CNG. I think I have mentioned before I liked my two test drives in the first Prius they brought to San Diego. I just have a hard time believing that Toyota is on the up & up with production. Not denial, mistrust of corporate giants.
John,
Print means nothing. They have printed that the Lexus hybrid SUV would be out this last Spring. It was not. Until I see quiet cars and SUVs running up and down the highway & byways it is all HYPE. That is reality. In my driving around San Diego I have not seen more than a half a dozen Prius. That is not many in a city of 2 million people.
I can relate. In early '99 I went to my local Honda dealer to drive the all-new Odyssey--I needed a van to replace my '91 Caravan 4-banger. I was told that due to limited supply, not only did they have no van for me to test-drive, but if I wanted one I could enter my name into their "lottery" and if I was lucky I'd get one in a few months. I leased a Grand Caravan Sport and was very pleased with it. Then in late '03 I started looking for a van to replace the GCS, which was going off-lease soon, and went shopping for the all-new Sienna at my local Toyota dealer. I was told that supplies were not meeting demand and the price was MSRP, take it or leave it--if I could find the van I wanted, which was tough because I wanted a lightly-optioned LE. That's when I decided I could live without a minivan and started looking at hatchbacks like the Prius.
Point is, this is not a Prius problem or even a hybrid problem. It's the old law of supply and demand, and the free enterprise system, in full force.