___Just this morning I saw a new 04 Accord w/ Leather and NAVI for $24,400 after rebate in the Transportation section of the Sunday Chicago Trib. The Prius w/ package 9 comes to $26,055 w/out mats not including any dealer add-ons, mark ups, or wait times.
___The Prius II is a 9.8 - 11.43 second (14.9 when drained) to 60. That is slower then the Echo, Corolla, and Civic. The Accord 4 w/ Auto is easily an 8 - 9 second automobile w/ Auto.
I'll handle this one. I was looking at an Accord EX 4cyl Auto, and to get one with the navigation system and a few extras that would get it close to the cost of the Prius, it was 26,400... which is clearly more than a Package 9
I'm not sure where you will get a package 9 Prius for $26k, it won't be in San Diego. I talked to the dealer yesterday and he was not sure what a package 9 was. He said they sell Prius with the NAV for $29k and change. There are a few people that like all that gadgetry, the rest just want a comfortable quiet car that is big enough for their family and gets good mileage. If it passes the smog test they figure they are doing their part for the environment. If people were truly interested in cleaning the air they would push the congress to pass strict laws on high sulfur in unleaded gas and diesel in all 50 states.
I'm not sure where you will get a package 9 Prius for $26k, it won't be in San Diego. I talked to the dealer yesterday and he was not sure what a package 9 was.
New Jersey... I put my name on the list and waited 6 months. I paid MSRP, which seems to be the norm over here I guess.
The Prius II is a 9.8 - 11.43 second (14.9 when drained) to 60. That is slower then the Echo, Corolla, and Civic. The Accord 4 w/ Auto is easily an 8 - 9 second automobile w/ Auto.
I did clearly say that the Prius was slower to 60, but felt faster in passing. I don't have the 50-70 times handy, but I'm sure they're close.
Just this morning I saw a new 04 Accord w/ Leather and NAVI for $24,400 after rebate in the Transportation section of the Sunday Chicago Trib. The Prius w/ package 9 comes to $26,055 w/out mats not including any dealer add-ons, mark ups, or wait times.
Great... how much is the bluetooth? And when you start to add in the extras, like the cd changer, the self dimming mirror, that price creeps up.
___Given the Prius II has a 0 - 30 mph acceleration of ~ 3.2 - 3.3 seconds and a 0 - 60 acceleration of 10 - 11 seconds, what does that allow for 30 - 60? That difference comes close to the amount it takes an Accord 4 w/ Auto to go from 0 - 60.
___All Accord EX’s come with an In-dash 6-CD changer, powered sunroofs, as well as all the other EX amenities standard. This includes being larger, faster, better handling, lower overall emissions, and being less costly to purchase via Edmunds TCO. The EX - L/NAVI includes a leather interior, leather heated 8-way power drivers seat including seat height + lumbar (manual), and dual zone Auto climate controls. What is missing is TCS and Side Curtains (V6 has them w/ all 05’s receiving them as std. across the board), BA, and HID’s. An Auto dimming rear view mirror goes for ~ $250.00. Living in NJ, the Accord PZEV is mandatory for NY.
___On a different tack although I don’t believe in the outcome in the least.
___Given the Prius II has a 0 – 30 mph acceleration of ~ 3.2 - 3.3 seconds and a 0 – 60 acceleration of 10 – 11 seconds, what does that allow for 30 - 60? That difference comes close to the amount it takes an Accord 4 w/ auto to go from 0 – 60.
50-70 is an entirely different game than 0-60. My Jetta 1.8t was a bit slow of the line, but it slayed with passing.
On a different tack … although I don’t believe in the outcome in the least.
What about the outcome strikes you as so unbelievable?
___I already gave you 0 - 30, 0 - 60 and you can calculate 30 - 60 from them. I don’t have any numbers on 50 - 70 as I have not seen them posted anywhere? Given this is the area where the Accord VTEC is doing its best up in the rev range; I doubt the Prius could compete.
What about the outcome strikes you as so unbelievable?
___The HCH being rated better overall then the Prius II when price is not considered. Or at least it appears as if price was not considered?
___And in conclusion, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?
I don’t have any numbers on 50 - 70 as I have not seen them posted anywhere? Given this is the area where the Accord VTEC is doing its best up in the rev range; I doubt the Prius could compete.
Car and Driver usually has them, but I can't find them offhand for the Accord. The Prius is a tick faster than the Mazda 6 4cyl, which is not a bad feat in and of itself.
And in conclusion, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?
Clearly the accord is just about the same cost and doesn't have all the goodies the Prius has. I can't get BT, HID lights, or stability control. Can I even get traction control on the I4?
Second, I like the hatchback. With the hatchback I can lug a lot more around than I could with the Accord.
Third, just about any car in the Accord class I got after my Jetta was going to handle worse. One could ask how can the Accord compete against the Jetta or Passat given that it's slower and handles worse?
Not sure how you figure the Prius pollutes more? Is the AT-PZEV or SULEV rating wrong? Do you have some information the government doesn't?
The reason behind C/D's placing the HCH in front of the Prius (by one point) in their review is obvious: C/D's editors are highly biased towards handling. They make no bones about it. For example, when they compared small sedans awhile back, the Protege eaked out 1st place because of its sharper handling compared to the other cars, even though it was slower, more expensive, and had a harsher ride than most of the others. Because the HCH handles like a Civic, which is to say quite well, that won it enough points to put it over the Prius in the comparo.
We know that C/D likes the Prius based on their selecting it a 10Best for 2004, and also the high score on the aforementioned comparo in which the two hybrids clobbered the diesel car and obliterated the high-mpg ICE car (not surprising since there was about $10,000 disparity in price between the ICE car and the hybrids).
Clearly the accord is just about the same cost and doesn't have all the goodies the Prius has.
___As posted many times, the Accord DX/LX/EX costs far less to purchase, have lower TCO’s according to Edmunds, and have other goodies like 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes (EX), Tilt and telescopic wheel, sun roof (EX), and leather interior w/ heated power multi-adjustable seats, dual zone auto-climate control (EX-L) equipped versions
Second, I like the hatchback. With the hatchback I can lug a lot more around than I could with the Accord.
___I do not fault you one bit in that regard. Wait until you see what you can do with the soon to arrive Honda Fit in comparison to all of the cars being discussed in this thread.
Third, just about any car in the Accord class I got after my Jetta was going to handle worse. One could ask how can the Accord compete against the Jetta or Passat given that it's slower and handles worse?
___Because the Prius II handles, rides, and accelerates worse then the Accord, that is why it is being compared. You could always bring up the Jetta in comparison to the Prius II but CR’s didn’t rate the Jetta their number 1 choice for this size automobile, it was the Accord.
Not sure how you figure the Prius pollutes more? Is the AT-PZEV or SULEV rating wrong? Do you have some information the government doesn't?
___This is why. Notice the emissions to produce and even maintain the Prius II? Against a std. ICE PZEV, this thing is like a driving smokestack ;-) That last statement was a complete exaggeration of course. All you have to do is remove the driving portion of the graphs since I believe the std. Automobile graphs were generated with an ICE rated for LEV emissions. Toyota used EPA estimates in generating their driving graphs also. Do you think you could average EPA estimates easier in a Prius II or anything else like let’s say an Accord? You can view the Hypermiler list over at Greenhybrid for your take on Prius’ meeting this requirement. The Prius II has higher emissions overall then the Accord PZEV.
All Accord EX’s come with an In-dash 6-CD changer, powered sunroofs
I would take the sunroof over a "blue Tooth" any day of the week. I think I would prefer the sunroof to be in a Passat Wagon TDI and get the best of all worlds. I am jealous of the Europeans choices in vehicles. We get the dregs when it comes to smaller cars.
I would take the sunroof over a "blue Tooth" any day of the week. I think I would prefer the sunroof to be in a Passat Wagon TDI and get the best of all worlds. I am jealous of the Europeans choices in vehicles. We get the dregs when it comes to smaller cars.
If you get phone calls in the car, bluetooth is the thing to have.
And having had a sunroof in my previous VW, let me just say I'm happier not having a sunroof in my VW anymore. They do give you the manual cranks for a reason.....
No surprise here but I would choose Bluetooth wireless way before a sunroof which takes up a few inches of headroom, invites leaks & gives a thief yet another entry point.
As posted many times, the Accord DX/LX/EX costs far less to purchase, have lower TCO’s according to Edmunds, and have other goodies like 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes (EX), Tilt and telescopic wheel, sun roof (EX), and leather interior w/ heated power multi-adjustable seats, dual zone auto-climate control (EX-L) equipped versions …
Apples and oranges dude. As posted many times, the Prius comes with many goodies the Accord doesn't have. And some of us *don't* want leather. And isn't the EX-L a V6?
Because the Prius II handles, rides, and accelerates worse then the Accord, that is why it is being compared. You could always bring up the Jetta in comparison to the Prius II but CR’s didn’t rate the Jetta their number 1 choice for this size automobile, it was the Accord.
There's always something that handles worse. I will admit toyota dropped the ball with their awful choice of standard tires on the Prius. Give me a UK spec Prius with the 16" wheels and I think it'd be a much better handling ride.
I have no idea what that graph means... it looks to me like the Prius has lower overall emissions period. Sure, if you take the dirving out it might be higher, but then I don't see Toyota building Priuses and dumping them in a landfill. I think the overall picture is the important one there.
"If you get phone calls in the car, bluetooth is the thing to have. "
Hmmm, I guess I have missed out for the last 3 years by using my conventional hands free headset with my various cell phones, all with voice dialing and voice activated call receiving. And all of which worked perfectly and with great clarity. Darn, and I could have had bluetooth...
Also, you are aware that bluetooth is a transmission, and can be monitored? Unless someone is aware of a scrambling technique that is used?
I realize the range of blue tooth is very limited, but nevertheless it is a broadcast technology.
Apples and oranges dude. As posted many times, the Prius comes with many goodies the Accord doesn't have. And some of us *don't* want leather. And isn't the EX-L a V6?
___Why would you need to purchase the V6 to get Leather and NAVI? The Accord EX w/ Leather and NAVI is available w/ a 4 if you wanted? If you didn’t want Leather and NAVI, the Accord would cost a lot less.
There's always something that handles worse. I will admit toyota dropped the ball with their awful choice of standard tires on the Prius. Give me a UK spec Prius with the 16" wheels and I think it'd be a much better handling ride.
___As mentioned previously, you don’t see torsion beam rear underpinning on a quality midsize or Luxury cars because the ride and handling qualities are not of the proper caliber for that market. Toyota had to cut the costs somewhere so they chose the Corolla/Echo suspension HW, not the Camry’s on up. As for tires, the wider the tire, the lower the fuel economy. The same can be said with detuning a std. Civic, Accord, Corolla, or Camry’s ICE to the performance of the Prius II. They would get far better fuel economy while still maintaining 0 - 60 in less then 11 seconds instead of downwards of 7.5 – 10 like most of these do now. Take out the independent suspensions of the Civic, Accord, and Camry for a less expensive automobile. Place the low rolling resistance and smaller footprint tires of the Prius II on the Accord/Camry and fuel economy goes up. Toyota and Honda have certain criteria and I am sure the designers and bean counters got together and said Hybrid drivers won’t be as aggressive so we can give them a Torsion beam and most won’t know the difference. We will give them high fuel economy tires so we can advertise 60 mpg in the city and most won’t notice. Unfortunately, given the huge advantages of the Accord in ride, handling, performance, initial cost, TCO, and overall emissions, Toyota should have upgraded the Prius with the underpinnings of the Camry instead of the Echo/Corolla at a minimum just to make the comparison look a little bit better
I have no idea what that graph means
___When you do, you will understand the Prius II emits more then any std. PZEV based ICE.
As mentioned previously, you don’t see torsion beam rear underpinning on a quality midsize or Luxury cars because the ride and handling qualities are not of the proper caliber for that market. Toyota had to cut the costs somewhere so they chose the Corolla/Echo suspension HW, not the Camry’s on up.
I dunno dude, didn't my Jetta have a torsion beam rear underpinning? And I'm positive that would outhandle a Camry or Accord.
I dunno dude, didn't my Jetta have a torsion beam rear underpinning? And I'm positive that would outhandle a Camry or Accord.
___I can almost guarantee that a Jetta does not have the ride quality of the Accord/Camry. The 04 New Beetle purchased by my parents ride is atrocious and it uses similar if not identical suspension as that of the Jetta according to VW’s website?
___How does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse again?
If you get phone calls in the car, blue tooth is the thing to have.
If I was making the laws Cell phone use in the vehicle while moving would be a capitol offense. Cell phones have passed alcohol for causing accidents. British Petroleum in the oil fields of Alaska will take your driving privilege away for talking on a cell phone while the vehicle is moving. Even with hands free. And I think it is a good rule. And I am the Cellular provider. I have no use for Blue Tooth or NAV. I like getting my maps from AAA so I can take them in the house and plan out my trips.
I'm not sure which phones work with the blue tooth. I can tell you that AMPS, TDMA & GSM are not secure at all. CDMA is much more secure. Ask Newt Gingrich. I would not say anything on a Cell phone that may incriminate.
How does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse again?
Dude, we've covered this, and we're doing it one last time.
According to your graph, the Prius pollutes over it's lifetime than the baseline car.
It may be slightly smaller, but it can haul more with the seats down. Since it's just my fiance and I, and we do need to move stuff about, it's not a bad comprimise.
It handles worse, you can have that one.
It doesn't cost more initially, MSRP to MSRP when you equip the cars the same. Wait a year or two until the prius is available for under MSRP (altho I paid MSRP for mine) and this won't be an issue.
It's slower off the line. Yes. It might well be faster in the 50-70 times, I can't find that data on the accord. It certainly is faster than the Mazda 6 4cyl, which is comprable.
I like my bluetooth. I like having my palm sync with my desktop without wires. I like having my palm using the phone as a modem to browse the internet when I'm at a conference or on a road trip.
According to your graph, the Prius pollutes over it's lifetime than the baseline car.
___We have covered this already. The Prius II against a std. PZEV Accord will show which pollutes more over the life cycle of the vehicle. The Prius II has too much to make up because of its emissions during build against the LEV based automobile receiving just 20.3 mpg let alone the PZEV based Accord receiving at least 29 combined.
It may be slightly smaller
___It is smaller.
It doesn't cost more initially, MSRP to MSRP when you equip the cars the same. Wait a year or two until the prius is available for under MSRP (altho I paid MSRP for mine) and this won't be an issue.
___The Prius II costs far more initially and over the longer term per Edmunds own TCO no matter if stripped or loaded against the DX, LX, or EX. This data has been linked more then once already.
It's slower off the line. Yes. It might well be faster in the 50-70 times, I can't find that data on the accord.
___The Accord 4 w/ Auto is faster then a Prius II. I too cannot find a 50 – 70 mph number for the Accord 4 w/ Auto. It is the Prius II’s extremely slow 0 - 60 times against the Accord’s sub 9 second times that kill it.
I heard a rumor today of a class-action suit filed on behalf of the approximately 45,000 purchasers of the '04 Prius by some owners in California. The suit is a rare dual action against both Toyota Motor Co. and Consumers Union, publishers of Consumer Reports. The suit alleges gross negligence by Toyota in selling a vehicle, the Prius, that costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse than the Honda Accord. The suit further alleges that Consumers Union made a gross misrepresentation when, in its May 2004 issue of Consumer Reports, it stated that the 2004 Prius is "competitive" with the Honda Accord and all other vehicles in the family car class in terms of acceleration, ride comfort, and handling. The suit is asking for total damages of $500 million, or the average dealer markup on the 2004 Prius, whichever is greater.
Or maybe I didn't really hear that rumor; maybe I just dreamed I did after seeing Wayne's comment for the 12th time to the effect, "How does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse again?"
My unsolicited advice, Wayne: life is short; get over it and move on. Professional car reviewers and, more importantly, the buying public have determined that the Prius can and does compete with the Accord. The answer to "how?" is simple: each vehicle has its strengths and attracts buyers based on those strengths. Not every buyer has the same buying criteria. For all the Prius buyers to date and those on waiting lists, it is clear the Prius met their buying criteria better than the Accord because otherwise those people would be out driving today in their cheaper, cleaner, bigger, faster, and more nimble Accords, sitting on luxurious leather seats and soaking in the sun through the sunroof if they so choose.
BTW, I was wondering if those emissions figures you posted include the pollution created by the raising and slaughtering of the cows used for the leather seats on the Accord EX-L? You know, like all the methane produced by the cows over their lifetimes? Also, aren't chemicals used in the leather tanning process? And then there's the additional pollution caused by the production of the bigger tires used on the Accord. What are the total pollution figures for the '04 Accord that I can buy here in Minnesota, anyway? I didn't see those figures in the data you provided.
This is getting good, at first I bought into the class-action suit backy mentioned now I want to hear the cow methane response Rob (Prius one day) Fruth
Oh yes, I almost forgot another question: since the sun's rays are a known carcinogen, what is the incidence of melonoma for drivers and passengers of the Accord EX (with moonroof) vs. drivers and passengers of the '04 Prius, which not only has no hole in the roof to let in the dangerous solar radiation, but also has special glass that absorbs solar radiation?
How does the Accord compete against a Prius when the Accord costs less then a Prius up front, costs $2500 more over the period of ownership, pollutes more (including bovine emissions), is smaller in cargo capacity, slower on ice and snow (with no traction control), and increases the risk of cancer for drivers and passengers?
...I'd say we are far enough off the beaten (and I do mean beaten) path here. Funny, tee-hee. The attacks are getting personal and well, you know my broken record mantra.
So...let's get back to some serious discussion about the Prius v. (fill in the comparison).
If you don't like the Prius - that's cool. But for those who have some valid comparison questions, let's give them a shot to ask without getting shut out.
Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesdays... everyone is welcome and ALL things automotive (and some not-so-automotive topics) are fair game! Stop in tonight and get to know some of your fellow Town Hall residents better. We may even play a little automotive trivia!
Getting things started, from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, If your passion is Mazda or you just like to go ZOOM ZOOM, the place to be is the Mazda Mania chat.
Wayne has jumped on one graph as evidence that the Prius has a higher lifecycle environmental impact than a normal ICE car.
As with most such selective use of facts, the reader needs to take the information in context to be able to make an informed decision about the situation.
So, here is the link to the original source document for that graph.
The pollution Life Cycle analysis there addresses the fact that the more complex Prius costs more resources to produce, but it also addresses the other factors in a true LifeCycle analysis, of which that graph is merely one part.
Use of recycled material, use of materials designed to be recycled, and recycling plans all factor into the equation as well as the reduced emissions during operation, which have a point impact on the air in the location where the vehicle is operated.
This is the same analysis you have to do with electricity, where the initial pollution may be remote, at the generating facility, and the operational pollution is reduced at the use-point, ie in the city where it's driven.
Such calculations are always complex, with many variables, and don't lend themselves to 'proof' with one selectively chosen graph taken out of context.
So, I invite everyone to do their own reading on how the design concept of the Prius is based on a Cradle to Grave attention to pollution and resource recovery.
Once you get into it, I also recommend research on the Bio-Plastics (or Eco-Plastics) that are being incorporated into the Prius. These are made from Vegetable Sources instead of Petroleum, which, as with Ethanol Fuel, results in a net 0 impact on global CO2, excluding of course production energy.
Never let anyone throw up one fact or figure as the 'answer' without doing your own checking on how they are chosing to interpret the data. Make your own decision on whether they are accurately representing the situation.
I tried using that PDF file you included. Most of the information does not come up. I do believe most of the people on this forum are interested in getting as much information as possible. I think the graph you referred to was of value because it put into perspective all that should be considered when evaluating pollution incurred by the production of vehicles. I think it is clear that the hybrid is an improvement on the issue of emissions. Is it enough of an improvement to warrant the higher cost and loss of handling.
I think that you have to pick up an extra Japanese display widget for Acrobat to view it. I'm using a full version so it's apparently included, but you should be able to download the plug-in to view it. Without that widget I understand the text is messed up.
"If I was making the laws Cell phone use in the vehicle while moving would be a capitol offense. "
Well, then you might as well outlaw talking to passengers while you are at it, because that is also distracting.
Really, I think that there are two problems with cell phones:
1. Dialing. I use voice dialing, so I don't take my eyes off the road. 2. Using one hand to hold the phone. This is really stupid but apparently very popular. I use a handsfree, which I hook up before putting the vehicle in motion.
Anything that distracts people while driving is bad. Not easy or practical to enforce. It amazes me how many people are talking on the cell phone and do not realize the light has changed. I hope CA follows NY's lead in outlawing them while driving. I'm sure handsfree will not be affected.
I agree that handsfree should be required. I can't believe the people I see with their heads tilted and one hand off of the wheel while they use their cell phone.
Bluetooth in the Prius is like handsfree on steroids, you don't even have to dig for the phone if its anywhere in the car - you 'use' the phone thru the stereo.
Speaking of keyless can you image a car that didn't require a key in the ignition switch every time ? gagrice people are going to think your feeding me these lines cause as you know the Prius requires no such key (what other vehicles under 25 K have that option ?)
Your welcome. That does have me intrigued. I'm not sure I would want it implanted in my shoulder as John would. I think it will become mainstream. I don't think NAV will ever be more than a novelty. For some people such as salesmen or realtors it would be handy. In reality the technology is only worth about $200. When it gets to that price I would accept it as an option.
___I have never driven a car at any price that you have to insert a key in one place and push a button in another? What other car besides the Prius II has that feature? Even my mowers are more ergonomic then that.
I have never driven a car at any price that you have to insert a key in one place and push a button in another? What other car besides the Prius II has that feature?
The new corvettes, some Cadillacs, and some BMWs all have a similar insert and push to start system.
"Bluetooth in the Prius is like handsfree on steroids, you don't even have to dig for the phone if its anywhere in the car - you 'use' the phone thru the stereo."
Hmmm, unfortunately, my current PDA/Phone combo doesn't offer Bluetooth, and of course I don't drive a Prius anyway. But it wouldn't be my buying reason in any case...
Naturally the NAV system is part of a option package, they may not sell too many stand alone. My current Civic hatch came with a rear air spoiler as part of an option package cause IMO most people over the age of 21 know about how useful a rear spoiler on a Civic hachback is and wouldn't buy one otherwise. (to add insult to injury if you opt for a CX not a DX ((no spoiler vs spoiler)) MPG estimates and handling numbers are all the same) Anyway back to the NAV it seems overpriced to me but everyone I've talked to that has one (various makes & models) says its worth every cent. So kinda like Bluetooth I'm not going to insist on a NAV system but it won't break my heart to have (its gotta be more useful than the above mentioned spoiler...)
With the Smartstart option you don't even have to take the remote out of your pocket to unlock the car and disarm the alarm. You don't need to put the remote in the dash socket, you just push the Power button and away you go. When you exit the car, the remote stays in your pocket and you just push a button on the door handle and it locks the car and arms the alarm. Let's see your mower do that.
Comments
___An Accord EX w/ leather interior, leather heated power seats, and NAVI can be picked up in CA. or IL. for ~ $24,000 given what Edmunds is posting.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/honda/accord/100336787/optionsres- ults.html?action=2&tid=edmunds.n.options.ntmv.1.1.Honda*
___Just this morning I saw a new 04 Accord w/ Leather and NAVI for $24,400 after rebate in the Transportation section of the Sunday Chicago Trib. The Prius w/ package 9 comes to $26,055 w/out mats not including any dealer add-ons, mark ups, or wait times.
___The Prius II is a 9.8 - 11.43 second (14.9 when drained) to 60. That is slower then the Echo, Corolla, and Civic. The Accord 4 w/ Auto is easily an 8 - 9 second automobile w/ Auto.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I'm not sure where you will get a package 9 Prius for $26k, it won't be in San Diego. I talked to the dealer yesterday and he was not sure what a package 9 was. He said they sell Prius with the NAV for $29k and change. There are a few people that like all that gadgetry, the rest just want a comfortable quiet car that is big enough for their family and gets good mileage. If it passes the smog test they figure they are doing their part for the environment. If people were truly interested in cleaning the air they would push the congress to pass strict laws on high sulfur in unleaded gas and diesel in all 50 states.
New Jersey... I put my name on the list and waited 6 months. I paid MSRP, which seems to be the norm over here I guess.
I did clearly say that the Prius was slower to 60, but felt faster in passing. I don't have the 50-70 times handy, but I'm sure they're close.
Just this morning I saw a new 04 Accord w/ Leather and NAVI for $24,400 after rebate in the Transportation section of the Sunday Chicago Trib. The Prius w/ package 9 comes to $26,055 w/out mats not including any dealer add-ons, mark ups, or wait times.
Great... how much is the bluetooth? And when you start to add in the extras, like the cd changer, the self dimming mirror, that price creeps up.
___Given the Prius II has a 0 - 30 mph acceleration of ~ 3.2 - 3.3 seconds and a 0 - 60 acceleration of 10 - 11 seconds, what does that allow for 30 - 60? That difference comes close to the amount it takes an Accord 4 w/ Auto to go from 0 - 60.
___All Accord EX’s come with an In-dash 6-CD changer, powered sunroofs, as well as all the other EX amenities standard. This includes being larger, faster, better handling, lower overall emissions, and being less costly to purchase via Edmunds TCO. The EX - L/NAVI includes a leather interior, leather heated 8-way power drivers seat including seat height + lumbar (manual), and dual zone Auto climate controls. What is missing is TCS and Side Curtains (V6 has them w/ all 05’s receiving them as std. across the board), BA, and HID’s. An Auto dimming rear view mirror goes for ~ $250.00. Living in NJ, the Accord PZEV is mandatory for NY.
___On a different tack although I don’t believe in the outcome in the least.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=8427&page_number=1
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Given the Prius II has a 0 – 30 mph acceleration of ~ 3.2 - 3.3 seconds and a 0 – 60 acceleration of 10 – 11 seconds, what does that allow for 30 - 60? That difference comes close to the amount it takes an Accord 4 w/ auto to go from 0 – 60.
50-70 is an entirely different game than 0-60. My Jetta 1.8t was a bit slow of the line, but it slayed with passing.
On a different tack … although I don’t believe in the outcome in the least.
What about the outcome strikes you as so unbelievable?
50-70 is an entirely different game than 0-60.
___I already gave you 0 - 30, 0 - 60 and you can calculate 30 - 60 from them. I don’t have any numbers on 50 - 70 as I have not seen them posted anywhere? Given this is the area where the Accord VTEC is doing its best up in the rev range; I doubt the Prius could compete.
What about the outcome strikes you as so unbelievable?
___The HCH being rated better overall then the Prius II when price is not considered. Or at least it appears as if price was not considered?
___And in conclusion, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Car and Driver usually has them, but I can't find them offhand for the Accord. The Prius is a tick faster than the Mazda 6 4cyl, which is not a bad feat in and of itself.
And in conclusion, how does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse?
Clearly the accord is just about the same cost and doesn't have all the goodies the Prius has. I can't get BT, HID lights, or stability control. Can I even get traction control on the I4?
Second, I like the hatchback. With the hatchback I can lug a lot more around than I could with the Accord.
Third, just about any car in the Accord class I got after my Jetta was going to handle worse. One could ask how can the Accord compete against the Jetta or Passat given that it's slower and handles worse?
Not sure how you figure the Prius pollutes more? Is the AT-PZEV or SULEV rating wrong? Do you have some information the government doesn't?
We know that C/D likes the Prius based on their selecting it a 10Best for 2004, and also the high score on the aforementioned comparo in which the two hybrids clobbered the diesel car and obliterated the high-mpg ICE car (not surprising since there was about $10,000 disparity in price between the ICE car and the hybrids).
Clearly the accord is just about the same cost and doesn't have all the goodies the Prius has.
___As posted many times, the Accord DX/LX/EX costs far less to purchase, have lower TCO’s according to Edmunds, and have other goodies like 4 wheel independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes (EX), Tilt and telescopic wheel, sun roof (EX), and leather interior w/ heated power multi-adjustable seats, dual zone auto-climate control (EX-L) equipped versions
Second, I like the hatchback. With the hatchback I can lug a lot more around than I could with the Accord.
___I do not fault you one bit in that regard. Wait until you see what you can do with the soon to arrive Honda Fit in comparison to all of the cars being discussed in this thread.
Third, just about any car in the Accord class I got after my Jetta was going to handle worse. One could ask how can the Accord compete against the Jetta or Passat given that it's slower and handles worse?
___Because the Prius II handles, rides, and accelerates worse then the Accord, that is why it is being compared. You could always bring up the Jetta in comparison to the Prius II but CR’s didn’t rate the Jetta their number 1 choice for this size automobile, it was the Accord.
Not sure how you figure the Prius pollutes more? Is the AT-PZEV or SULEV rating wrong? Do you have some information the government doesn't?
___This is why. Notice the emissions to produce and even maintain the Prius II? Against a std. ICE PZEV, this thing is like a driving smokestack ;-) That last statement was a complete exaggeration of course. All you have to do is remove the driving portion of the graphs since I believe the std. Automobile graphs were generated with an ICE rated for LEV emissions. Toyota used EPA estimates in generating their driving graphs also. Do you think you could average EPA estimates easier in a Prius II or anything else like let’s say an Accord? You can view the Hypermiler list over at Greenhybrid for your take on Prius’ meeting this requirement. The Prius II has higher emissions overall then the Accord PZEV.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Thanks for your take on the C&D article. It does make sense given the handling idea.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I would take the sunroof over a "blue Tooth" any day of the week. I think I would prefer the sunroof to be in a Passat Wagon TDI and get the best of all worlds. I am jealous of the Europeans choices in vehicles. We get the dregs when it comes to smaller cars.
If you get phone calls in the car, bluetooth is the thing to have.
And having had a sunroof in my previous VW, let me just say I'm happier not having a sunroof in my VW anymore. They do give you the manual cranks for a reason.....
Apples and oranges dude. As posted many times, the Prius comes with many goodies the Accord doesn't have. And some of us *don't* want leather. And isn't the EX-L a V6?
Because the Prius II handles, rides, and accelerates worse then the Accord, that is why it is being compared. You could always bring up the Jetta in comparison to the Prius II but CR’s didn’t rate the Jetta their number 1 choice for this size automobile, it was the Accord.
There's always something that handles worse. I will admit toyota dropped the ball with their awful choice of standard tires on the Prius. Give me a UK spec Prius with the 16" wheels and I think it'd be a much better handling ride.
I have no idea what that graph means... it looks to me like the Prius has lower overall emissions period. Sure, if you take the dirving out it might be higher, but then I don't see Toyota building Priuses and dumping them in a landfill. I think the overall picture is the important one there.
Hmmm, I guess I have missed out for the last 3 years by using my conventional hands free headset with my various cell phones, all with voice dialing and voice activated call receiving. And all of which worked perfectly and with great clarity. Darn, and I could have had bluetooth...
Also, you are aware that bluetooth is a transmission, and can be monitored? Unless someone is aware of a scrambling technique that is used?
I realize the range of blue tooth is very limited, but nevertheless it is a broadcast technology.
Apples and oranges dude. As posted many times, the Prius comes with many goodies the Accord doesn't have. And some of us *don't* want leather. And isn't the EX-L a V6?
___Why would you need to purchase the V6 to get Leather and NAVI? The Accord EX w/ Leather and NAVI is available w/ a 4 if you wanted? If you didn’t want Leather and NAVI, the Accord would cost a lot less.
There's always something that handles worse. I will admit toyota dropped the ball with their awful choice of standard tires on the Prius. Give me a UK spec Prius with the 16" wheels and I think it'd be a much better handling ride.
___As mentioned previously, you don’t see torsion beam rear underpinning on a quality midsize or Luxury cars because the ride and handling qualities are not of the proper caliber for that market. Toyota had to cut the costs somewhere so they chose the Corolla/Echo suspension HW, not the Camry’s on up. As for tires, the wider the tire, the lower the fuel economy. The same can be said with detuning a std. Civic, Accord, Corolla, or Camry’s ICE to the performance of the Prius II. They would get far better fuel economy while still maintaining 0 - 60 in less then 11 seconds instead of downwards of 7.5 – 10 like most of these do now. Take out the independent suspensions of the Civic, Accord, and Camry for a less expensive automobile. Place the low rolling resistance and smaller footprint tires of the Prius II on the Accord/Camry and fuel economy goes up. Toyota and Honda have certain criteria and I am sure the designers and bean counters got together and said Hybrid drivers won’t be as aggressive so we can give them a Torsion beam and most won’t know the difference. We will give them high fuel economy tires so we can advertise 60 mpg in the city and most won’t notice. Unfortunately, given the huge advantages of the Accord in ride, handling, performance, initial cost, TCO, and overall emissions, Toyota should have upgraded the Prius with the underpinnings of the Camry instead of the Echo/Corolla at a minimum just to make the comparison look a little bit better
I have no idea what that graph means
___When you do, you will understand the Prius II emits more then any std. PZEV based ICE.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I dunno dude, didn't my Jetta have a torsion beam rear underpinning? And I'm positive that would outhandle a Camry or Accord.
I dunno dude, didn't my Jetta have a torsion beam rear underpinning? And I'm positive that would outhandle a Camry or Accord.
___I can almost guarantee that a Jetta does not have the ride quality of the Accord/Camry. The 04 New Beetle purchased by my parents ride is atrocious and it uses similar if not identical suspension as that of the Jetta according to VW’s website?
___How does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse again?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If I was making the laws Cell phone use in the vehicle while moving would be a capitol offense. Cell phones have passed alcohol for causing accidents. British Petroleum in the oil fields of Alaska will take your driving privilege away for talking on a cell phone while the vehicle is moving. Even with hands free. And I think it is a good rule. And I am the Cellular provider. I have no use for Blue Tooth or NAV. I like getting my maps from AAA so I can take them in the house and plan out my trips.
and what cell phones are secure ?
Dude, we've covered this, and we're doing it one last time.
According to your graph, the Prius pollutes over it's lifetime than the baseline car.
It may be slightly smaller, but it can haul more with the seats down. Since it's just my fiance and I, and we do need to move stuff about, it's not a bad comprimise.
It handles worse, you can have that one.
It doesn't cost more initially, MSRP to MSRP when you equip the cars the same. Wait a year or two until the prius is available for under MSRP (altho I paid MSRP for mine) and this won't be an issue.
It's slower off the line. Yes. It might well be faster in the 50-70 times, I can't find that data on the accord. It certainly is faster than the Mazda 6 4cyl, which is comprable.
That's great for you.
I like my bluetooth. I like having my palm sync with my desktop without wires. I like having my palm using the phone as a modem to browse the internet when I'm at a conference or on a road trip.
According to your graph, the Prius pollutes over it's lifetime than the baseline car.
___We have covered this already. The Prius II against a std. PZEV Accord will show which pollutes more over the life cycle of the vehicle. The Prius II has too much to make up because of its emissions during build against the LEV based automobile receiving just 20.3 mpg let alone the PZEV based Accord receiving at least 29 combined.
It may be slightly smaller
___It is smaller.
It doesn't cost more initially, MSRP to MSRP when you equip the cars the same. Wait a year or two until the prius is available for under MSRP (altho I paid MSRP for mine) and this won't be an issue.
___The Prius II costs far more initially and over the longer term per Edmunds own TCO no matter if stripped or loaded against the DX, LX, or EX. This data has been linked more then once already.
It's slower off the line. Yes. It might well be faster in the 50-70 times, I can't find that data on the accord.
___The Accord 4 w/ Auto is faster then a Prius II. I too cannot find a 50 – 70 mph number for the Accord 4 w/ Auto. It is the Prius II’s extremely slow 0 - 60 times against the Accord’s sub 9 second times that kill it.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Or maybe I didn't really hear that rumor; maybe I just dreamed I did after seeing Wayne's comment for the 12th time to the effect, "How does the Prius II compete against an Accord DX, LX , or EX when the Prius II costs more initially, costs more over the longer term, pollutes more, is smaller, slower, and handles worse again?"
My unsolicited advice, Wayne: life is short; get over it and move on. Professional car reviewers and, more importantly, the buying public have determined that the Prius can and does compete with the Accord. The answer to "how?" is simple: each vehicle has its strengths and attracts buyers based on those strengths. Not every buyer has the same buying criteria. For all the Prius buyers to date and those on waiting lists, it is clear the Prius met their buying criteria better than the Accord because otherwise those people would be out driving today in their cheaper, cleaner, bigger, faster, and more nimble Accords, sitting on luxurious leather seats and soaking in the sun through the sunroof if they so choose.
BTW, I was wondering if those emissions figures you posted include the pollution created by the raising and slaughtering of the cows used for the leather seats on the Accord EX-L? You know, like all the methane produced by the cows over their lifetimes? Also, aren't chemicals used in the leather tanning process? And then there's the additional pollution caused by the production of the bigger tires used on the Accord. What are the total pollution figures for the '04 Accord that I can buy here in Minnesota, anyway? I didn't see those figures in the data you provided.
How does the Accord compete against a Prius when the Accord costs less then a Prius up front, costs $2500 more over the period of ownership, pollutes more (including bovine emissions), is smaller in cargo capacity, slower on ice and snow (with no traction control), and increases the risk of cancer for drivers and passengers?
Is this getting too far-fetched for anyone, yet?
So...let's get back to some serious discussion about the Prius v. (fill in the comparison).
If you don't like the Prius - that's cool. But for those who have some valid comparison questions, let's give them a shot to ask without getting shut out.
Getting things started, from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, If your passion is Mazda or you just like to go ZOOM ZOOM, the place to be is the Mazda Mania chat.
Mazda Mania Chat Room
Imediately following from 7-8pm PT/10-11pm ET, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat
Hybrid Vehicles Chat Room
The Town Hall chats are a great place to take these message board topics LIVE. Hope to see you there this week!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
As with most such selective use of facts, the reader needs to take the information in context to be able to make an informed decision about the situation.
So, here is the link to the original source document for that graph.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
The pollution Life Cycle analysis there addresses the fact that the more complex Prius costs more resources to produce, but it also addresses the other factors in a true LifeCycle analysis, of which that graph is merely one part.
Use of recycled material, use of materials designed to be recycled, and recycling plans all factor into the equation as well as the reduced emissions during operation, which have a point impact on the air in the location where the vehicle is operated.
This is the same analysis you have to do with electricity, where the initial pollution may be remote, at the generating facility, and the operational pollution is reduced at the use-point, ie in the city where it's driven.
Such calculations are always complex, with many variables, and don't lend themselves to 'proof' with one selectively chosen graph taken out of context.
So, I invite everyone to do their own reading on how the design concept of the Prius is based on a Cradle to Grave attention to pollution and resource recovery.
Once you get into it, I also recommend research on the Bio-Plastics (or Eco-Plastics) that are being incorporated into the Prius. These are made from Vegetable Sources instead of Petroleum, which, as with Ethanol Fuel, results in a net 0 impact on global CO2, excluding of course production energy.
Never let anyone throw up one fact or figure as the 'answer' without doing your own checking on how they are chosing to interpret the data. Make your own decision on whether they are accurately representing the situation.
___Yes, I had to download the Japanese font add-on for acrobat to view the doc as well. Thanks.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Well, then you might as well outlaw talking to passengers while you are at it, because that is also distracting.
Really, I think that there are two problems with cell phones:
1. Dialing. I use voice dialing, so I don't take my eyes off the road.
2. Using one hand to hold the phone. This is really stupid but apparently very popular. I use a handsfree, which I hook up before putting the vehicle in motion.
___I have never driven a car at any price that you have to insert a key in one place and push a button in another? What other car besides the Prius II has that feature? Even my mowers are more ergonomic then that.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The new corvettes, some Cadillacs, and some BMWs all have a similar insert and push to start system.
Damn those econoboxes!
Hmmm, unfortunately, my current PDA/Phone combo doesn't offer Bluetooth, and of course I don't drive a Prius anyway. But it wouldn't be my buying reason in any case...
I think it will remain popular in larger over the road vehicles but many folks buy these small cars mainly for daily commute.
Not sure how useful an expensive NAV system is in that case.
Let's see your mower do that.
Well, if you let the law mower cost $26000, it could probably be had with the desired features...