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Toyota Prius v. ??? (fill in the comparison)
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Are you going to tell everyone that the interior of a full-size conversion van is even bigger and even more practical?
Minivans, like the new Sienna, are quite impressive now too... and far more fuel efficient.
JOHN
I can show you a van conversion at the AirStream dealer half a mile from my house. It is bigger than my Suburban by a lot and gets 22/29 mpg. It is built into the very fine Sprinter Van with a Mercedes diesel engine. If you are looking for a vehicle to go traveling and carry your home with you, that is a great choice. I would not want to commute to work in one, that's just me. I'm not sure why you are comparing it to the Prius but that is just You.
1. Cost. Those Excursions are expensive, and the diesel (which is the only way to go) is another 4K or so.
2. Size. I find them to be very difficult to maneuver and (especially) park.
3. I prefer a more nimble vehicle, since more than once I have avoided accidents by quick actions (by me) and reactions (from the car). A 6000 lb vehicle has a log of inertia to overcome.
Note that these are the only reasons I didn't buy one. I agree that the family is the most important thing, and I require that my cars have high safety ratings in both the Highway Institute and the government tests...
Other people would point out (correctly) that vehicles meet crash standards only against their own weight class, and that if all vehicles were smaller and ligher your family would still be protected just as well.
Unless you want to drive an M-1, that is... but they get 3 gallons per mile. Talk about your environmental nightmare...
but staying home may be safer still and it would be one less trip.
The official safety ratings totally disagree with you.
Minivans are among the safest standard vehicles available.
JOHN
There is no sudden solution that will be acceptable to Americans. That doesn't mean solutions aren't there, just that the political will isn't there in the citizens to implement them. It takes time to implement changes... in people.
I'm on my 2nd Grand Caravan.
The first one died at only 18K miles. A chevy pickup slammed the passenger sliding door at +60MPH, so the witnesses say.
The both passenger doors were destroyed, side glass panels didn't break but since the roof was twisted the windscreen split, quad chairs were skewed for the accordian buckled floor....a total loss.
The pickup was destroyed and the driver broke his hands.
The wife & 3 small kids were there, my 6 year old was sitting in the seat next to the impact and only suffered a bit lip. Amazing.
I was so impressed by its safety display that we bought another one to replace.
Now that we've tasted fantastic MPG with a hybrid I can surely say that my GC is superior to Prius...
Except my Grand Caravan is a NASTY POLLUTING GAS PIG....and we'd love to get out from under....(anyone here interested in a nice beautiful used van? :-) because we're looking to buy a 2nd hybrid car, and rent a van for occasional long family trips or to haul stuff.
We totally agree on the environment. The problem is solutions have been available for decades and the EPA has not chosen to implement them. How many years has Europe had ULSD? They have the advantage of diesel cars that are clean running and very fuel efficient. We continue in our old ways and put bandaids on the problems, such as Ethanol and hybrids. I doubt the hybrids will be a big seller in Europe. They don't need all that fancy stuff to get decent power and fuel economy.
Increasing road congestion will only make the emissions problem worse.
A diesel-hybrid, where it would have the ability to drive using only electricity like Prius, would be a popular choice. Many would be interested in that, despite your continued anti-hybrid claims.
JOHN
Who thinks that?
I certainly don't.
Countless times now I stated how the HSD design will become increasing more efficient by becoming increasing more electric. And at some point, there will literally be no system difference between it and a fuel-cell vehicle, only the power source itself. The propulsion system and all the creature-comfort features will be entirely electric. And of course, that accomodates grid supplementing too.
> They can't make the big bucks building them
What proof do you have of that?
Remember, at one time the automatic transmission and A/C took time to become mainstream too. What makes this any different?
JOHN
Your family might well have ceased to exist if you had been driving a Prius. It is a matter of physics. That Chevy pickup is a big vehicle, and you have to read the fine print on the great ratings for crash tests - it says the results are valid only for vehicles in the same weight class. This means that your T&C would fare much better in the same accident with a large, heavy vehicle, than the Prius.
This is not a hit against the Prius, it is a smaller vehicle. The same statement is true for a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Echo, and any number of other small cars.
However this was the point of the post a few days back where the author indicated why he drives a Ford Excursion - it is big and provides a lot of protection in a crash.
The Prius has excellent safety systems, well designed and implemented. But inertia and sheer mass will tell in a collision...
Simply contradicting is hardly convincing.
Perhaps you should state (not vaguely, obviously) what you are in favor of.
JOHN
Because when given a choice, people choose avoiding an accident in the first place.
Cars typically fair much better in this respect compared to old SUVs... hence the reason new SUV ground-clearance is now being reduced.
JOHN
That is easy. I am in favor of any vehicle that gets significantly better mileage than vehicles we have been offered over the last 20 years. With a very few exceptions mileage has not increased, it has actually decreased. Sure I will agree the hybrids are getting good mileage. They have no real world reliability records to convince me they can go 15 years without major expense. The only high mileage Prius I have seen written about is a cab in Vancouver BC. That is hardly a factor worth considering. Show me the people that have gone 150k+ miles in a Prius without any problems. After, what did you say 8 years in production, there should be thousands of them.
You are always asking for facts while spewing out unsubstantiated rhetoric & spin. Show us some facts and not just idle promises. In 45 years of following the new car market I cannot remember a time when cars were promised and then delayed like the Escape & RX400 hybrids. You used to be able to set your calendar in September when the new cars came out. Not with the hybrids it is one excuse after another. I think Toyota and Ford may wise up to the fact that they built themselves into a corner with a white elephant technology. The other majors will bring out real cars that handle and get good mileage with modern diesel engines. they are being built and will get approved for here probably before the next hybrid hits the showroom floor. I think the Escape is a year behind and the RX400H about the same. You can make all the excuses in the world that does not put a car in the driveway of the people that trusted Toyota and Ford when they lied to them about when they would get their new hybrids.
Now here is the car I want and it is a very clean diesel! Is that precise enough for you?
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/320cd.htm
Please *QUANTIFY* your expectations.
An actual number is great. But a percentage is fine.
For example, that statement about Toyota not delivering hybrids is vague. Toyota promised 300,000 hybrid systems per year by 2006 and that is exactly what appears to be happening. Production capacity is increasing at a steady and predictable rate leading to the achievement of the 300,000 right on time. Those numbers are on track. They may not end up in the vehicles you had hoped for. But the 300,000 systems should be delivered as promised.
Your statements about duration require numbers of their own still, traditional vehicle data to compare & contrast with.
Please tell us a desired MPG and Emission rating you hope to be achieved, and by when.
JOHN
How about Prius versus Mercedes E Class?
http://www.newstreet.it/home/article_Id_627.html
The Prius is a VERY safe car. In the European crash tests it recorded the highest score ever in it's class and the highest score ever recorded in any vehicle in Child Safety. It also scored very well in the new Pedestrian Safety test.
One little known fact about the Prius is the special attention to detail Toyota paid to the passenger compartment, which results in a structure that is far stronger than you'd expect for it's size.
From the Article:
"To achieve this all-important balance between weight and resistance, some 45% of the Prius body is constructed from High-Strength Steel. In addition, in a world auto industry first, Ultra High-Strength Steel in key areas such as the B-pillar is combined with a hot-stamping manufacturing process, making this material 2.5 times stronger than conventional High-Strength Steel."
Oh, yeah, I forgot the comparison.
The Prius is safer in every test than the Mercedes E Class, which is generally considered a 'standard' for passenger car safety.
Euro Tests Available at http://www.euroncap.com/
Obviously, the wants will not be fulfilled if you keep them a secret.
JOHN
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2004MidS.html
This was for the 4-door, but the note about high likelihood of pelvic injury was for the front seat. The 2-door hasn't been tested. At least the 3 Series did well on frontal impacts--as did the Prius.
I noticed that the Prius actually scored better than the E-Class on driver frontal impact crash (NHTSA, five stars for Prius vs. four for E-Class), although the E-Class scored higher on side impact (five stars vs. four)
The size comparison is valid, but doesn't detract in any way from the stellar performance of the Prius. Let's rephrase then. For Its Size - The Prius is safer than an E Class, and is the safest car of it's size you can buy.
Finally, the only extra safety feature on the Euro Prius is VSC+ which includes steering angle sensing in the equation compared to the VSC offered in NA. The Euro Prius does have Rear Discs instead of Rear Drums, and bigger tires, so it might possibly be better in avoidance, but that's kind of irrelevant in a crash test.
Oh, and really finally, if you 'took' an E320 CDI, you'd be paying more than a 'little more' for not much more safety, and THEN paying more for fuel
All in all, the Prius is an amazingly safe car, in addition to it's other virtues.
Impacts between different size and weight vehicles constitute the most common type of accident in Europe, so Prius was crashed against the far larger Toyota Land Cruiser as part of the testing regime, both vehicles driving at 50 km/h. As a result, Prius occupants enjoy the highest possible levels of protection in real-life frontal, side and rear impacts.
If the manufacturer pays extra, the NHTSA will perform the test for models with more safety features.
You can see that Honda paid to have the Civic with Side air bags tested too, and hopefully Toyota will do the same for the Prius.
There's every reason to expect that the Prius with Side Air Bags would get 5 stars on Side Impact. It did in Europe where Side Air Bags are standard.
It says, explicitly, that the Prius was designed from the ground up, and tested, to be as safe as possible in an impact with a larger vehicle, specifically a Land Cruiser.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Occupants of a Prius came out better in a collision with a Land Cruiser than the occupants of a Land Cruiser in a collision with another Land Cruiser.
The Crash Test Ratings bear out just how good it is.
You are really getting desperate now it seems. Is it really that hard to admit in the face of all the evidence that the Prius is a remarkable safety feat as well as a remarkable engineering feat?
Ok, my bad. I actually replied in good faith to your other messages before reading this one, expecting to be talking the merits of individual cars based on facts.
I understand now. You hate Toyota and are 'blind' (to use your words), to anything else.
Got it. Please disregard any facts I or others may bave presented. I understand they are inconvenient. Carry on.
1. By your crash test article it expounds on the extra high strength metal that goes into the Prius.
2. It also has 8 airbags on the European version which I thought I had read. (not standard on the US version)
3. With all the expensive components High tensile strength steel, electric motors, batteries, lots of additional electronic controls it has to cost more to produce than a standard mid-size car.
4. If the original Prius cost Toyota $35k to manufacture and they sold them here for $20k, that is a lot of PR money spent. The last article I read was that the Prius was at the break even point for Toyota.
Right now if you can find one for MSRP it is $3k to $10k more than a car that will fulfill the same need for transportation for a family of 4-5 people. It can only be justified by those that would like people to think they are environmentally "with it" or they just love gadgets. It is NOT an economical option now or for the foreseeable future.
Finally as for the Prius vs Landcruiser test it was very vague. Would the people get killed? It just says they would do as well as anyone in a car of that size against the Land Cruiser. Was the car destroyed? It does not say anything about it. That is one of my gripes about writers, they leave out things that don't exemplify their point of view.
As you may have noticed I am debating two of you at the same time. The above remarks were directed at the other poster.
My remarks to you dealt with the evidence you presented in a civil manner. On the other debate which you have injected yourself, I am dealing with some one that has little use for facts or evidence. His claims are all from his opinions with snippets of information he has gleaned from his own limited experience with the Prius.
And you deduced correctly that I am not a big fan of Toyota. I bought a new Toyota Land Cruiser in 1964 that had the worst copy of a Chevy six that you could ever imagine. 3 valve jobs and 2 new timing gears & piston rings in 48k miles. I also bought a new Toyota PU in 1992 & 1994 both for family members. They were both less than reliable vehicles. If you have had great reliability from your Toyota vehicles that is great. My experience was not as pleasant.
For those that are interested in the ultimate outcome and progress reports along the way, I'm here to provide that info & data.
The auto industry is beginning a massive reconstruction. With oil prices at an all-time high, makers like KIA gaining suprising amounts of marketshare, new technology providing entirely new opportunities, and the ceiling having been reached for size & speed & power, and consumer wants different from before, this ain't your father's business anymore. Those traditional approaches are not working well now. Change is inevitable. Stop fighting it.
JOHN
I'm glad people have found so many details about the impressive safety features of the Prius, but in a high speed T-Bone, I still think the Excursion will come out ahead...
Kia is starting out like Saturn. Each iteration of vehicle gets bigger and bigger, while at the same time introducing new vehicles that are even bigger.
Also, when it comes to safety, some people are concerned about who they squash too... which makes bigger a poor choice.
JOHN
I did, in the last message...
"Also, when it comes to safety, some people are concerned about who they squash too... which makes bigger a poor choice."
Yes, and others don't particularly care what happens to the other fellow, so long as their children survive...
That's not true. In fact, the e-class scored better except in the area of pedestrian protection, in your own link.
Maybe we're reading the numbers differently.
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/introduction.php
2003 Mercedes E Class
Front 13 (81%)
Side 18 (100%)
Belt Reminder 2
Overall 33
Pedestrian 4 (11%)
Child (N/R) (That was only started Dec 04)
2004 Toyota Prius
Front 14 (88%)
Side 18 (100%)
Belt Reminder 2
Overall 34
Pedestrian 13 (36%)
Child Protection 43 (88%)
Summary:
Crash Rating
Prius 34 - Mercedes 33
Pedestrian Rating
Prius 13 - Mercedes 4
Child Safety
Prius - 43 (The Highest ever recorded for any car)
To me, the Prius has better scores. I don't know what your interpretation of those numbers is.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/SList2.cfm?vehyear=2004&vehmake- - - =Mercedes-Benz&vehmodel=E-Class
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/SList2.cfm?vehyear=2004&vehmake- =Toyota&vehmodel=Prius