The point they are making is that if you want a no frills, kidney-pounding performance machine, get an Evo or an STi.
If you want something with both outstanding performance and refinement, the Mazdaspeed 6 is the car for you.
I'm sure there will be a legion of people in these forums who throw a hissy fit because the Mazdaspeed 6 won't have the same straightline performance as these barely streetlegal rally cars, but Mazda has never engaged in the horsepower wars before and I don't believe its their intention to with this car either.
Plus the Mazdaspeed 6 is simply an entirely different class of car then these others.
Well, I want both. And there is a limit to how much sport I can actually use commuting in the congested NE corridor.
Also, aren't the British mags notorious for dissing Japanese models? I would trust C&D instead.
I do want to have a (reasonably) comfortable car for normal use, with all the goodies, but have some serious power and handling available when needed. I also don't want to look like a delinquent (sometimes I have to pretend to act my age).
Now that I actually read the review. One snippet that peaks my interest:
"think BMW 330i rather than Subaru Impreza STi. The gearchange is great: short, smooth and precise".
I think his conclusion agrees with what Mazda intended. It isn't an Evo/Sti competitor (although it is still quick and offers all wheel drive), but it's not a BMW either.
I think they shouldn't have any trouble moving the 5K or so they plan to push each year, but I have been wrong before.
Can't wait until they come out in June. I signed up for updates, so I'm sure Mazda will pay me another $25 to drvie one (twist my arm!)
If you look at the cost increase over an otherwise loaded 6 (about 5K), that makes the idea of a MPS3 hatch for 25K viable. That one could really be the WRX slayer.
The engine fits, sans turbo, I bet they could squeeze it in.
WRX makes 227hp and the STi makes 300hp. So it would slot between the two. But the STi does little volume, and I think the 3 could sell in higher numbers.
The engine fits, sans turbo, I bet they could squeeze it in.
Ford Racing squeezed a 5.0L Ford CAMMER V8 into a Euro Focus RS, so I'd be willing to bet the MPS6's turbo I4 will fit into the Mazda3 given it and the EF share the same platform. MT pitted it against the Lambo Gallardo a few months ago and the results were pretty impressive to say the least.
i agree with juice. its one source. Plus, we don't know how they test. Maybe that's the 0-60 if you engage the clutch like you owned it rather than stole it. considering one of those televised mags i saw recently (can't remember, but i assume motortrend or autowek) pulled under 7 secs with the mazda6 hatch, I think you'll see low 6s, if not even better, by the time the US publications are done with it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
254hp...You might not see much performance over the 6s. That's only a 30 hp jump. Add in the drag of the 4WD system and you start sapping any benefit of the extra horses. The Altima SE-R's got you looking at tailights.
flip side, the AWD should give better hook up, as opposed to a FWD where you can easliy light up the tires. Of course, some AWDs are slow off the line because you can't spin 'em!.
Guess that is the same as saying the driver (and style) play a big part in the 0-60 results.
Actually, I'm a big fan of the 5-60 "street start" test that C&D does (and to a lesser extent the way CR tests). To me, SS is much more realistic for how people drive in the real world. That is, I don't tend to do 5K clutch dumps at every stop light (tends to attract attention, and repair bills).
I think the S2000 was the biggest differential I ever saw. To get the fast (6 sec) 0-60, they had to drop the clutch at about 6K or so. The SS # was something like 10+ (?) secs (much slower in any case).
OT, the MSP6 powertrain may not put up quite the paper numbers (or it may), but should be stellar for rear world cut/thrust gunfighting. Should have a great 50-70 time in 3rd or 4th gear!
As always, if drag racing is whats most important to you, buy a mustang GT and get some hop-up parts (and the name of a good tire dealer).
As always, if drag racing is whats most important to you, buy a mustang GT and get some hop-up parts (and the name of a good tire dealer).
I like the balance the Mustang offers over the MPS6. Don't get me wrong, I think the MPS will be a great car and I do want one, but the new Stang handles pretty well on the track and has great straight line performance. The MPS will have superb handling but the straight line performance seems to be in question right now.
To be able to get both for about $25,000 (of course I'll be getting a vert so $28k is more like it) is a dream come true. Won't stop me from test driving the MPS when I have to turn my 6s in though. One never knows what might happen.
Bummer about no AWD on the MS3. Could be a WRX fighter.
Why are they not adding AWD? Should be very easy to do given that the platform was built with it in mind and the two others that share it can be had with AWD.
Why can't they just pop the Haldex system in there from the S40? It can't cost that much because Ford is buying tons of them from Haldex now that it's being used in 5+ models across the Ford brands.
'stang is on the LS chassis
Actually it's not. They tried that route but would have had to add too many braces, and therefore weight, to make it stiff enough. So they basically built an all new platform specifically for the Mustang. But it did get it's roots from the DEW98.
Still, a sedan on even the Mustang platform would probably run into the mid-$30's.
The Mustang and the MS6 are two different beasts, as far as I'm concerned. For $24,995 (minus the incentives, of course), you can get a Mustang GT out the door, a 2-Door, rear-drive, V-8 musclecar. For about 30 large, the MS6 is a 4-Door, all-wheel-drive, turbo 4-cyl sport sedan, that happens to keep up with the Mustang. Two completely different vehicles, IMHO. Both are excellent performers, but for enthusiasts with different tastes and needs.
Right now, the only direct competitor to the MS6 is the Sentra SE-R. If Acura decides on a TSX Type-S (could happen), it'll make it all the more interesting. Who knows, maybe Ford's new Fusion (a new sedan for '06, based on the Mazda6) will have a GT version with AWD and a 300-hp 3.5L Duratec V-6, priced attractively at 30 large as well...
I don't think we were comparing the two. I only said that I will be choosing the Mustang over the MPS6. On a track, which I never drive on, the two will probably be about even. Stoplights are a different story.
I love my 6s to death. But I'm finding it very difficult to fully enjoy it on the plethora of twisty roads in my area due to other, and of course slower because of their inferior automobiles, drivers on the roads. Chevy is the number one selling car brand in this city if that tells you anything about the local drivers.
Knowing that, you can see how the MPS would probabaly be overkill for me at this point.
I agree though. Two different animals in price, content, appearance, etc...
The Sentra would more than likely smack the MPS upside the head. 3.5L of normally aspirated V6 with more than ample torque and gears without the 4WD drag and turbo lag issues. My money would be on the Altima in normal street "fun" activities.
I'll take the MPS for my "normal street 'fun' activities."
Based on the test-drive I took with the Altima 3.5SE (before buying my 6S MT), the SE-R must be a handfull! The torque steer from standstill in the 3.5SE was abundant, and it even reared it's ugly head in the twisties as well. That's why I bought the 6 over the Altima, despite the power deficit. Unless Nissan has solved that problem in the SE-R, good luck keeping that car pointed in the right direction, wet or dry!
Yeah, I'll give a little to the SE-R in a straight line, but as soon as the road curves, the MPS with AWD will be my ride of choice, as I watch the SE-R understeer itself right into a ditch in my rear-view-mirror!
A little advice, please. Trying to decide between an Nissan Altima SE and a Mazda-6 s. I currently have a 2000 Nissan Maxima. Love the Nissan V-6 engines, which are powerful and reliable, clearly the best in class. I also have had an Mazda MX-6 in the past and been happy with that. However, aside from the Nissan SE's 250 hp engine (and superior interior room), the other factors (styling, handling, shifting, and to a small extent, pricing) seem to favor the Mazda 6, from my observations. You said that you bought the 6 over the Altima SE. Why, and what would you advise? Thanks. Mitchjack
you might get more opinions on th eregular MZ6 thread, but I think you answered your own question (other facotrs..).
To me, the 6 is a tidier package, and better dynamically (driving experience), and still roomy enough unless you regularly carry 4 full size adults for long distances. But, as always, YMMV, so try them both, and buy what feels best to you.
Altima does have a lot of torque steer, it also rides kinda harsh. The 6s seemed better balanced to me. Just as sporty but also more compliant.
That said the VQ has much better torque than the Duratec in Mazda tune. But I'd pick Mazda's interior any day. Even with Nissan's recent improvements.
The turbo will have a major edge at altitude, while the V6 would be wheezing. AWD would help in rain, snow, ice, sand, mud, grass, gravel, etc.
Dunno, the Altima SE-R still seems "ordinary" to me, nice, but nothing special. The MPS will be unique and stand out much more, have a lot more character.
Check out the Mazda 6 Sedan message board, it'll give you a bunch of opinions why the 6S is better than the Altima 3.5SE. In a nutshell, I'll sum up mine:
Altima: Powerful, torquey V-6, but handled terribly, felt very heavy and awkward. Torque steer was abundant. Interior looked economy-car cheap. Price was high, and finding a 3.5SE with 5-speed manual was impossible!
Mz6: Not as powerful, but power was more fluid. Handled better than sports cars I've driven. Light and easy to control. Interior miles ahead in quality and materials. Price was great, and had plenty of 6S 5-speeds to choose from, pick your color and go!
Winner: Mazda6 by landslide!
Again, it's all IMHO. Drive them yourself, then let us know what color 6 you chose... :-)
And while the Mazda wins on many different fronts, going faster than the SE-R will be a challenge for the average driver. Unless you regularly speed in the rain or snow, I would not recommend challenging an SE-R. I've owned over 30 cars. None have been 4WD, if you read boards of models that have the AWD option, it makes you wonder how you ever got out of the driveway in sloppy weather.
the average driver shouldn't be looking to go faster than either one of these cars anyway!
Seriously, while I know that you can never have too much power, sometimes a car just really does have more than you can really use, or probably "need". So even if the SE-R is faster on paper, I doubt the MSP6 could be considered too slow.
And, in the real world, you rarely get to use all the acceleration, but you do use handling, feel, etc. all the time.
I live in the South, where the roads are flat and straight for the most part. While I have found places to try out my handling on some back roads, I spend most time on straight 4-lane and interstate. There are many more opportunities to "clear my exhaust" than there are to "straighten the curves" down here.
If you aren't gonna go fast, might as well get a 6i or an Altima 2.5S and save a few bucks.
Certainly different then the congested NE corridor. Still, top speed may end up ebing the same (governed), and the type of driving you are talking about discounts 0-60, and makes high speed stability and passing times (50-70, or whatever) more important. And I bet that the Mazda will hold its own in that way.
Besides, you still will have to consider ride, comfort, etc. since those are things that you experience all the time.
Back to the Mustang analogy, my old boss has a Bullit Mustang. Wicked fast, and somewhat entertaining, but mostly a horribly uncomfortable beast.
Anyway, I'm still not a fan of too much HP though the front wheels, especially when you are trying to have fun.
were uncomfortable no matter what the model. I'm 6'6' with a 38" inseam. I never could find a very comfortable position.
As far as too much power in a FWD. There are a few FWD with near 250 hp or more. AWD isn't quite a necessity at that hp level in a car the size of the 6. But I bet it IS fun.
An article from auto123.com about the upcoming Mazdaspeed 3 can be found by googling mazdaspeed 3.
"The heart of the hot 3 will be the same turbocharged 2.3-liter inline-four featured in the Mazdaspeed 6, but detuned from 260 to 220 horsepower to maintain distance between the two models. The powerplant is based on the normally-aspirated 2.3-liter unit with variable valve timing, found in the top-of-the-line Mazda3 and entry-level Mazda6 ... it's nearly certain that the tuned 3 will remain front-wheel drive. The powertrain configuration, most likely backed up by a six-speed manual gearbox, should result in 0 to 100 km/h times of around 6.5 seconds and a top speed of at least 250 km/h (155 mph), equaling that of its midsized sibling."
Actually, the 3 might be of even more interest, if it is the hatch version. Any idea when that one should show up? Should be an easy project if it stays FWD.
i agree. The weight is really killing this car's performance. Maybe they'll wise up and throw more aluminum into the mix before production. As it stands, its not going to be much faster than a 6S. Certainly not worth the price premium.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I also agree, the weight of the car is really a dissapointment, I was hoping it was a misprint - I could see a couple of hundred pounds more than the 6s but 400+ ?! There is so much to like about this car but all that weight is going to be drag on acceleration, fuel economy, agility and responsiveness. As guess we'll have to see the final production version - but please keep the weight down...
Comments
http://www.autocarmagazine.co.uk/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=212460
-juice
If you want something with both outstanding performance and refinement, the Mazdaspeed 6 is the car for you.
I'm sure there will be a legion of people in these forums who throw a hissy fit because the Mazdaspeed 6 won't have the same straightline performance as these barely streetlegal rally cars, but Mazda has never engaged in the horsepower wars before and I don't believe its their intention to with this car either.
Plus the Mazdaspeed 6 is simply an entirely different class of car then these others.
Not a bad review, but he didn't rave about it either.
-juice
Also, aren't the British mags notorious for dissing Japanese models? I would trust C&D instead.
I do want to have a (reasonably) comfortable car for normal use, with all the goodies, but have some serious power and handling available when needed. I also don't want to look like a delinquent (sometimes I have to pretend to act my age).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"think BMW 330i rather than Subaru Impreza STi. The gearchange is great: short, smooth and precise".
I think his conclusion agrees with what Mazda intended. It isn't an Evo/Sti competitor (although it is still quick and offers all wheel drive), but it's not a BMW either.
I think they shouldn't have any trouble moving the 5K or so they plan to push each year, but I have been wrong before.
Can't wait until they come out in June. I signed up for updates, so I'm sure Mazda will pay me another $25 to drvie one (twist my arm!)
Hope it has that moonroof.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Yeah, volume is so low they'll easily sell every one. We'll see more MPS cars in the future, I'm sure.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
WRX makes 227hp and the STi makes 300hp. So it would slot between the two. But the STi does little volume, and I think the 3 could sell in higher numbers.
It would make a heck of a halo car, too.
-juice
Ford Racing squeezed a 5.0L Ford CAMMER V8 into a Euro Focus RS, so I'd be willing to bet the MPS6's turbo I4 will fit into the Mazda3 given it and the EF share the same platform. MT pitted it against the Lambo Gallardo a few months ago and the results were pretty impressive to say the least.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0408_mismatched_wp/- index1.html
Also, 0-whatever varies greatly by magazine, so a single data source by itself means little.
Legacy GT times are usually high 5s to low 6s, so it's in the same ballpark.
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.triplezoom.com/news/publish/article_276.shtml
The MS3 will reportedly make "around" 220 HP, and AWD will not be an option. Too bad.
I can't wait for a MS6 production model to make it to the US so some journalist can get actual hands-on experience and let us know about it!
Oh so true.
FWIW MT lists the Mazda6s MTX at 0-60 in 6.8 seconds. Given that number 6.4 seconds does seem a bit high. Only time will tell.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Guess that is the same as saying the driver (and style) play a big part in the 0-60 results.
Actually, I'm a big fan of the 5-60 "street start" test that C&D does (and to a lesser extent the way CR tests). To me, SS is much more realistic for how people drive in the real world. That is, I don't tend to do 5K clutch dumps at every stop light (tends to attract attention, and repair bills).
I think the S2000 was the biggest differential I ever saw. To get the fast (6 sec) 0-60, they had to drop the clutch at about 6K or so. The SS # was something like 10+ (?) secs (much slower in any case).
OT, the MSP6 powertrain may not put up quite the paper numbers (or it may), but should be stellar for rear world cut/thrust gunfighting. Should have a great 50-70 time in 3rd or 4th gear!
As always, if drag racing is whats most important to you, buy a mustang GT and get some hop-up parts (and the name of a good tire dealer).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I like the balance the Mustang offers over the MPS6. Don't get me wrong, I think the MPS will be a great car and I do want one, but the new Stang handles pretty well on the track and has great straight line performance. The MPS will have superb handling but the straight line performance seems to be in question right now.
To be able to get both for about $25,000 (of course I'll be getting a vert so $28k is more like it) is a dream come true. Won't stop me from test driving the MPS when I have to turn my 6s in though. One never knows what might happen.
'stang is on the LS chassis, so a sedan with a V8 on that platform (with IRS and luxuries) will cost you $40 grand or so.
-juice
Why are they not adding AWD? Should be very easy to do given that the platform was built with it in mind and the two others that share it can be had with AWD.
Why can't they just pop the Haldex system in there from the S40? It can't cost that much because Ford is buying tons of them from Haldex now that it's being used in 5+ models across the Ford brands.
'stang is on the LS chassis
Actually it's not. They tried that route but would have had to add too many braces, and therefore weight, to make it stiff enough. So they basically built an all new platform specifically for the Mustang. But it did get it's roots from the DEW98.
Still, a sedan on even the Mustang platform would probably run into the mid-$30's.
Maybe Volvo convinced Ford to limit Mazda so as not to overlap? But it would be limited production anyway.
-juice
The Mustang and the MS6 are two different beasts, as far as I'm concerned. For $24,995 (minus the incentives, of course), you can get a Mustang GT out the door, a 2-Door, rear-drive, V-8 musclecar. For about 30 large, the MS6 is a 4-Door, all-wheel-drive, turbo 4-cyl sport sedan, that happens to keep up with the Mustang. Two completely different vehicles, IMHO. Both are excellent performers, but for enthusiasts with different tastes and needs.
Right now, the only direct competitor to the MS6 is the Sentra SE-R. If Acura decides on a TSX Type-S (could happen), it'll make it all the more interesting. Who knows, maybe Ford's new Fusion (a new sedan for '06, based on the Mazda6) will have a GT version with AWD and a 300-hp 3.5L Duratec V-6, priced attractively at 30 large as well...
It could happen...
I love my 6s to death. But I'm finding it very difficult to fully enjoy it on the plethora of twisty roads in my area due to other, and of course slower because of their inferior automobiles, drivers on the roads. Chevy is the number one selling car brand in this city if that tells you anything about the local drivers.
Knowing that, you can see how the MPS would probabaly be overkill for me at this point.
I agree though. Two different animals in price, content, appearance, etc...
I think the Legacy GT is the closest competitor. Both are 4 cylinder turbos with AWD, sized similarly.
-juice
I'll take the MPS for my "normal street 'fun' activities."
Based on the test-drive I took with the Altima 3.5SE (before buying my 6S MT), the SE-R must be a handfull! The torque steer from standstill in the 3.5SE was abundant, and it even reared it's ugly head in the twisties as well. That's why I bought the 6 over the Altima, despite the power deficit. Unless Nissan has solved that problem in the SE-R, good luck keeping that car pointed in the right direction, wet or dry!
Yeah, I'll give a little to the SE-R in a straight line, but as soon as the road curves, the MPS with AWD will be my ride of choice, as I watch the SE-R understeer itself right into a ditch in my rear-view-mirror!
To me, the 6 is a tidier package, and better dynamically (driving experience), and still roomy enough unless you regularly carry 4 full size adults for long distances. But, as always, YMMV, so try them both, and buy what feels best to you.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That said the VQ has much better torque than the Duratec in Mazda tune. But I'd pick Mazda's interior any day. Even with Nissan's recent improvements.
The turbo will have a major edge at altitude, while the V6 would be wheezing. AWD would help in rain, snow, ice, sand, mud, grass, gravel, etc.
Dunno, the Altima SE-R still seems "ordinary" to me, nice, but nothing special. The MPS will be unique and stand out much more, have a lot more character.
-juice
Altima: Powerful, torquey V-6, but handled terribly, felt very heavy and awkward. Torque steer was abundant. Interior looked economy-car cheap. Price was high, and finding a 3.5SE with 5-speed manual was impossible!
Mz6: Not as powerful, but power was more fluid. Handled better than sports cars I've driven. Light and easy to control. Interior miles ahead in quality and materials. Price was great, and had plenty of 6S 5-speeds to choose from, pick your color and go!
Winner: Mazda6 by landslide!
Again, it's all IMHO. Drive them yourself, then let us know what color 6 you chose... :-)
Seriously, while I know that you can never have too much power, sometimes a car just really does have more than you can really use, or probably "need". So even if the SE-R is faster on paper, I doubt the MSP6 could be considered too slow.
And, in the real world, you rarely get to use all the acceleration, but you do use handling, feel, etc. all the time.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If you aren't gonna go fast, might as well get a 6i or an Altima 2.5S and save a few bucks.
Besides, you still will have to consider ride, comfort, etc. since those are things that you experience all the time.
Back to the Mustang analogy, my old boss has a Bullit Mustang. Wicked fast, and somewhat entertaining, but mostly a horribly uncomfortable beast.
Anyway, I'm still not a fan of too much HP though the front wheels, especially when you are trying to have fun.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
As far as too much power in a FWD. There are a few FWD with near 250 hp or more. AWD isn't quite a necessity at that hp level in a car the size of the 6. But I bet it IS fun.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"The heart of the hot 3 will be the same turbocharged 2.3-liter inline-four featured in the Mazdaspeed 6, but detuned from 260 to 220 horsepower to maintain distance between the two models. The powerplant is based on the normally-aspirated 2.3-liter unit with variable valve timing, found in the top-of-the-line Mazda3 and entry-level Mazda6 ... it's nearly certain that the tuned 3 will remain front-wheel drive. The powertrain configuration, most likely backed up by a six-speed manual gearbox, should result in 0 to 100 km/h times of around 6.5 seconds and a top speed of at least 250 km/h (155 mph), equaling that of its midsized sibling."
Are you sure it will have a moonroof?
Actually, the 3 might be of even more interest, if it is the hatch version. Any idea when that one should show up? Should be an easy project if it stays FWD.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Subaru uses an aluminum hood, tail gate, front and rear bumper beam, and roof rails for the wagon.
-juice
According to Edmunds the AWD S40 T5 MTX weighs 3230 lbs. and the FWD T5 MTX weighs 3069 lbs. That gives us a difference of 161 lbs between the two.
Doesn't seem that heavy to me. Is it?
So how'd they add 400 lbs? And really we should compare how much weight it adds to the 2.3l model, since that's the engine they started with.
-juice
Magazines are not always accurate on all of their specs, there have been misprints, especially on pre-production models.
Also, they did not do a full test, so we do not have any accurate performance numbers.
Lets not jump on a band wagon here! (-: