Just out of curiosity I compared the weight of a Haldex equipped Five Hundred AWD to the FWD model. The weight difference is 172 lbs. (Remember the driveshaft in the FH is longer than that in the S40) so it looks like the Haldex system really is that light.
Or maybe the weight is due to the extra equipment and reinforcement they talk about. All Mazdaspeeds are pretty much loaded and come standard with some equipment not available on a regular 6?
I was thinking that too gee. I thought I read somewhere that the rear seats aren't going to fold down due to some new structural braces behind them?
MT has a write-up on the MPS6 this month that lists the mfr estimated 0-60 time even though they did get to drive it. I didn't read the entire article yet but the couple of paragraphs I did read seemed pretty positive.
also add the weight of the turbo, intercooler, and all the piping. And how about the bottom end? Did they need stronger internals in that engine? What about a heavier clutch? There's alot of things that go into making a car like this faster that adds weight.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
with the mazdaspeed turbocharged 2.3-liter inline-four and the mazda 6 v6 side by side, its like having 2 women side by side with 1 set of fake boobs and 1 real boobs... i mean turbocharge is fake, its not the real power that comes from the engine it self, its coming from this box that has turbo in it...
for me, i would only stick with my V6 or V8 without turbo if i really need any kind of power...
how much would it cost to fix that box i mean that turbocharge anyways? at least half of the car is worth
Sorry, but you are way off. The "box" (that description in itself shows your lack of knowledge on the subject) makes zero power. Do you think the turbocharger drives the wheels? No way. It is helping to increase the power the engine produces. If you want to call it "fake power," I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but fake is something that is not real. Being that the power produced propels the car, it is obviously real.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"When the car goes on sale in summer 2005, it will be priced from $27,995 (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price). Equipped with a 270-horsepower turbocharged direct-injection gasoline engine, MAZDASPEED6 is the most powerful and best-handling sedan ever sold by Mazda.
MAZDASPEED6 demonstrates the trademark balance of all MAZDASPEED vehicles -- the highest performance vehicles to wear the Mazda badge. To accommodate the power of the turbocharged engine, Mazda developed a new Active Torque-Split All-Wheel Drive system. When electronic sensors detect a lack of grip, up to 50 percent of the power can be directed to the rear wheels. In addition, the MAZDASPEED6 comes equipped with a completely new six-speed manual transmission, perfectly fitting the car's character.
Optional on MAZDASPEED6 is a Grand Touring package, priced at $29,925, incorporating leather seating surfaces, eight-way power driver's seat, heated front seats and mirrors, and keyless entry and start. Because of MAZDASPEED6's high level of standard equipment, stand-alone factory options are limited to pearl paint ($200), power tilt-and-slide moonroof ($700) and DVD-based navigation system ($2,000)."
Curb weight is 3589 lbs so it is porkier than I'd like. I'm not going to fret until I drive though. Before people go too crazy about that, the Subaru Legacy GT with a manual transmission weighs in at 3428 lbs meaning there is an a very, very small difference between the two cars in terms of power to weight ratio.
I have 3 orders subject to test drives. Lots of folks looking for info but are afraid to order without seeing...the guy who placed the first order drives a 2003 MZ6, his wife has one and his dad has one, so I wasnt surprised that he wanted to be one of the first.
no takers of the white interior and all of my cars are ordered with black interior.
the only people who have mentioned the weight are on edmunds....not a word about it from the folks coming in to get details...but thats typical, we never see people who are like edmunds posters. lol
A turbo is not "fake", it's like having an athlete with 100% fresh, dense oxygen to breathe while all his opponents gasp on thin, polluted air.
When a turbo blows by a V6 or even some V8s, the power becomes very, very real.
160 lbs heavier than the Legacy isn't too bad, but still, they could've done better considering this is a special car and the GT is a regular production model. Subaru will probably have an STi at some point.
I used to have a Taurus SHO which I loved. It was re-inforced for extra stiffness to handle the extra power. Yes, it weighed more, but the performance, fuel mileage, and reliability didn't suffer. I never cared about stoplight acceleration; passing power (50-80mph) does more for me. I drove it for 156,000 miles, and even ran it on the German autobahn for three years.
Only thing was the SHO was larger than I needed.
Now we have an Audi Quattro. Just the size I like, and the AWD is great. But it doesn't have the strong rush of power that the SHO put out.
The MazdaSpeed6 could be that combination of the right size, great handling and traction, and power in a blended package that would be very satisfying. We'll see how the details cone out.
so i was at a mazda dealer yesterday. i was told by the manager of the moment that he is expecting to start receiving his allocation (10 on order) by the end of February. The trade mags seem to think its coming in the Summer. Any truth to his line?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm still being told summer by my factory reps...I just checked the status of my MS6's and I am showing the first one with a production date of feb wk/2 and the others being spread out over a 5 week period. Once the car is built it usually takes 8-12 weeks to get to car from japan to connecticut..
so maybe he also sees that they are being produced in February, but doesn't know enough to understand it will be a while before its on his floor. Guess I can cut him a little slack for that. thanks for the info.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Possibly. The thing is, he didn't even try to sell it to me. He just said I should call at the end of February and then come drive it. he said he drove it and was absolutely blown away, by the way.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
maybe he's thinking of the US built ones. They probably show up a lot sooner.
All the reviews this month sound good to me. Pretty much a Legacy GT type car, not a Wrx/EVO wanns be. AWD traction, lots of oomph, all the neccesary luxo goodies, but still "sporty" handling. Plus a really good 6 speed.
I'm here in Detroit, I'll be at the show tomorrow. I hope we can crawl inside one. Anyone have specific questions or want to request a photo of something specific?
The Spec'd Curb Weight for a Non GT (Standard MPS 6) with ZERO options is
3589 lbs (Canada/USA Spec). There isn't a spec'd curbweight from mazda yet on a fully loaded GT version (with sunroof, nav, and all the excess trimings), but its estimated at around 3650 lbs.
This of course, all on 18x7 thin wheels, with 215/45/18 rubber. Its no wonder the reviews complain about excessive understeer. Even the rx8 with its sub 3000 lb curb weight (MTX base) is running wider rims 18x8, with wider rubber 225/45/18.
Its very perplexing why mazda would spend time designing a fugly looking rim, and not work on figuring out a way to made the wheels wider to help handle the excess weight. The car really needs 245's or 255's on 17's. That should have been a standard option, and mazda's failure to do so will result in a poor showing in SCCA classes, as there is a big limitation as to what width tires you can slip on a 18x7 rim.
The car will of course be fast in a straight line...but its no knife fighter like the Mazdaspeed protege is.
Regardless, make sure you test drive one before ordering it...as a large portion of the reviews aren't very positive, so don't assume that the car's the same as a 6s + more power...its more of a 6s + 3 passengers + more power.
As to where all the weight came from...remember the MPS has alot of standard features the standard 6's don't have. Things like sideairbags, leather, cool little keycard and startbuttons...these all add weight to the curb weight.
Normally this weight isn't seen because curb weights are for base models only...so when you look at a 3050 lb (or around there) 6i MTX, its got NO options whatsoever. Just cloth, mtx, nothing else. Curb weights are for base models + all fluids and a full tank of gas.
Wow, if the MazdaSpeed version is going to be so heavy, what are the advantages over a standard 6 s (V-6)? Sure it has 50 more hp and all-wheel drive, but at roughly 500lbs heavier? The power-to-weight ratios are pretty close. And we all know how that much weight can affect handling. Plus it costs alot more at that.
Anybody have performance figures (0-speed and cornering G's) for both?
Standard 6s MTX weighs 3247 lbs. (V6) Its the 6i MTX (L3 I4 engine) that weighs around 3050 (or therabouts).
So between the 6s MTX and MPS 6 there is around a 350 lb weight difference.
The MPS 6 gives you...
1) 60 more bhp (though may be underrated)
2) 80-85 more ft/lbs (at lower rpm's as well)
3) 6 speed manual gearbox
4) Hal AWD system 100:0 till slippage, then max 50:50. (F/R bias)
5) Stiffened chassis, reworked suspension (mainly rear), different shocks/springs, HID's, body kit.
It should be nearly a second fast to 60, or about 5.7-6.0 seconds, dependin on how aggressive the clutch usage is. Mazda quotes a 0-60 time of 6.2 seconds, and a 0-100km time of 6.6 seconds. The 6s mtx goes to 0-60 in about 6.7-7.0 seconds, depending on mileage. (More miles = faster).
No skidpad numbers on the MPS 6...skipads for 6i mtx is around .87-.89, skidpad for the 6s is .84.
All the extra equipment adds weight, the 6th ratio, the HIDs, and the big rims for starters. That's besides the Haldex AWD.
I've sampled an S60 with and without AWD back-to-back, there are obvious differences in traction off the line, but even in turns you feel less understeer and better balance.
In fact I would not buy an S60 without it, because I just didn't like the way the FWD Volvos felt.
Does anyone know what the reported 0-60 time is for a Legacy GT sedan with a manual transmission? I'm having a hard time finding that information.
The R&T article was mostly positive, but the understeer issue came up again.
In theory, I like Mazda's approach to the front end...making the airdams and hood larger to accommodate the turbocharger instead of strapping a huge scoop on the hood (I'm thinking STi here). But in practice, at least from the photos I've seen, it makes the car look out-of-proportion and asymetrical.
I guess I'll have to withold judgment until I can see one (and drive one) in person.
If you plan to use the car as an everyday driver the wide, low profile rubber to go with those wheels results in a jarring ride, and makes damage from potholes and curbs a real issue. I suppose a second set of wheels and tires for winter is the inconvenient answer.
I have a 6S and notice quite a difference in performance when I have even one passenger with me much less three!
The MPS has a top mounted intercooler...which vents out at the windshield. Aka horizontal air comes in the front, travels magically through a horizontally mounted intercooler (ontop of the engine), and then out the windshield.
Heatsoak will definitely be an issue with the vehicle. The reasonings behind the TMI seem to be a reduction in required piping, and (goes along with that) a reduction in pressure drop. The side effects are the engine heat is going to directly effect intercooler temps, which will reduce its effectiveness.
It is however a direct injection engine, which should help with underhood temps somewhat (fuel has a cooling effect on combustion temps).
Btw the 0-60 in 5.5 seconds was a misprint. No one had any testing equipment for any of the preview articles...they were all at a mazda press event, on a mazda controlled track, with mazda pr shoving things down their throat. Mazda's offical times continue to be 0-60 in 6.2 and 0-100km in 6.6.
I would "hope" that after the crap they've had to deal with over the rx8 and MSM bhp and performance ratings...that they'd "underrate" the MPS 6 this round.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
If they have one here (Pittsburgh, 2/12-2/20) I'll post my findings. The 2005 Ford Five Hundred, Mustang GT, and Freestyle were roped off last year so I'm not holding my breath.
Comments
-juice
MT has a write-up on the MPS6 this month that lists the mfr estimated 0-60 time even though they did get to drive it. I didn't read the entire article yet but the couple of paragraphs I did read seemed pretty positive.
Guess we'll see once the official specs come out.
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
for me, i would only stick with my V6 or V8 without turbo if i really need any kind of power...
how much would it cost to fix that box i mean that turbocharge anyways? at least half of the car is worth
Sorry, but you are way off. The "box" (that description in itself shows your lack of knowledge on the subject) makes zero power. Do you think the turbocharger drives the wheels? No way. It is helping to increase the power the engine produces. If you want to call it "fake power," I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but fake is something that is not real. Being that the power produced propels the car, it is obviously real.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"When the car goes on sale in summer 2005, it will be priced from $27,995 (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price). Equipped with a 270-horsepower turbocharged direct-injection gasoline engine, MAZDASPEED6 is the most powerful and best-handling sedan ever sold by Mazda.
MAZDASPEED6 demonstrates the trademark balance of all MAZDASPEED vehicles -- the highest performance vehicles to wear the Mazda badge. To accommodate the power of the turbocharged engine, Mazda developed a new Active Torque-Split All-Wheel Drive system. When electronic sensors detect a lack of grip, up to 50 percent of the power can be directed to the rear wheels. In addition, the MAZDASPEED6 comes equipped with a completely new six-speed manual transmission, perfectly fitting the car's character.
Optional on MAZDASPEED6 is a Grand Touring package, priced at $29,925, incorporating leather seating surfaces, eight-way power driver's seat, heated front seats and mirrors, and keyless entry and start. Because of MAZDASPEED6's high level of standard equipment, stand-alone factory options are limited to pearl paint ($200), power tilt-and-slide moonroof ($700) and DVD-based navigation system ($2,000)."
Anything you can add re the weight issue? 3600 lbs. is way too heavy for this car!
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/pdf/specs_features/veh_specs_MS6.- - pdf
Curb weight is 3589 lbs so it is porkier than I'd like. I'm not going to fret until I drive though. Before people go too crazy about that, the Subaru Legacy GT with a manual transmission weighs in at 3428 lbs meaning there is an a very, very small difference between the two cars in terms of power to weight ratio.
no takers of the white interior and all of my cars are ordered with black interior.
the only people who have mentioned the weight are on edmunds....not a word about it from the folks coming in to get details...but thats typical, we never see people who are like edmunds posters. lol
Kinda makes you wonder where we come from.
When a turbo blows by a V6 or even some V8s, the power becomes very, very real.
160 lbs heavier than the Legacy isn't too bad, but still, they could've done better considering this is a special car and the GT is a regular production model. Subaru will probably have an STi at some point.
-juice
Only thing was the SHO was larger than I needed.
Now we have an Audi Quattro. Just the size I like, and the AWD is great. But it doesn't have the strong rush of power that the SHO put out.
The MazdaSpeed6 could be that combination of the right size, great handling and traction, and power in a blended package that would be very satisfying. We'll see how the details cone out.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
-juice
All the reviews this month sound good to me. Pretty much a Legacy GT type car, not a Wrx/EVO wanns be. AWD traction, lots of oomph, all the neccesary luxo goodies, but still "sporty" handling. Plus a really good 6 speed.
Can't wait to drive one.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
he will be waiting a long long time. All the Mazda6speeds will be built in Japan.
Or he could be full of BS. Or both.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=- mazdaSpeed6
-juice
3589 lbs (Canada/USA Spec). There isn't a spec'd curbweight from mazda yet on a fully loaded GT version (with sunroof, nav, and all the excess trimings), but its estimated at around 3650 lbs.
This of course, all on 18x7 thin wheels, with 215/45/18 rubber. Its no wonder the reviews complain about excessive understeer. Even the rx8 with its sub 3000 lb curb weight (MTX base) is running wider rims 18x8, with wider rubber 225/45/18.
Its very perplexing why mazda would spend time designing a fugly looking rim, and not work on figuring out a way to made the wheels wider to help handle the excess weight. The car really needs 245's or 255's on 17's. That should have been a standard option, and mazda's failure to do so will result in a poor showing in SCCA classes, as there is a big limitation as to what width tires you can slip on a 18x7 rim.
The car will of course be fast in a straight line...but its no knife fighter like the Mazdaspeed protege is.
Regardless, make sure you test drive one before ordering it...as a large portion of the reviews aren't very positive, so don't assume that the car's the same as a 6s + more power...its more of a 6s + 3 passengers + more power.
As to where all the weight came from...remember the MPS has alot of standard features the standard 6's don't have. Things like sideairbags, leather, cool little keycard and startbuttons...these all add weight to the curb weight.
Normally this weight isn't seen because curb weights are for base models only...so when you look at a 3050 lb (or around there) 6i MTX, its got NO options whatsoever. Just cloth, mtx, nothing else. Curb weights are for base models + all fluids and a full tank of gas.
For a much wider track they'd probably need a full redesign.
-juice
Anybody have performance figures (0-speed and cornering G's) for both?
So between the 6s MTX and MPS 6 there is around a 350 lb weight difference.
The MPS 6 gives you...
1) 60 more bhp (though may be underrated)
2) 80-85 more ft/lbs (at lower rpm's as well)
3) 6 speed manual gearbox
4) Hal AWD system 100:0 till slippage, then max 50:50. (F/R bias)
5) Stiffened chassis, reworked suspension (mainly rear), different shocks/springs, HID's, body kit.
It should be nearly a second fast to 60, or about 5.7-6.0 seconds, dependin on how aggressive the clutch usage is. Mazda quotes a 0-60 time of 6.2 seconds, and a 0-100km time of 6.6 seconds. The 6s mtx goes to 0-60 in about 6.7-7.0 seconds, depending on mileage. (More miles = faster).
No skidpad numbers on the MPS 6...skipads for 6i mtx is around .87-.89, skidpad for the 6s is .84.
I've sampled an S60 with and without AWD back-to-back, there are obvious differences in traction off the line, but even in turns you feel less understeer and better balance.
In fact I would not buy an S60 without it, because I just didn't like the way the FWD Volvos felt.
-juice
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_- id=1763
The R&T article was mostly positive, but the understeer issue came up again.
In theory, I like Mazda's approach to the front end...making the airdams and hood larger to accommodate the turbocharger instead of strapping a huge scoop on the hood (I'm thinking STi here). But in practice, at least from the photos I've seen, it makes the car look out-of-proportion and asymetrical.
I guess I'll have to withold judgment until I can see one (and drive one) in person.
I have a 6S and notice quite a difference in performance when I have even one passenger with me much less three!
The Legacy's hood scoop is necessary - it has a TMIC (top-mounted Intercooler). Mazda's is front, or FMIC.
EVO and STi both come with summer tires also.
-juice
Heatsoak will definitely be an issue with the vehicle. The reasonings behind the TMI seem to be a reduction in required piping, and (goes along with that) a reduction in pressure drop. The side effects are the engine heat is going to directly effect intercooler temps, which will reduce its effectiveness.
It is however a direct injection engine, which should help with underhood temps somewhat (fuel has a cooling effect on combustion temps).
Btw the 0-60 in 5.5 seconds was a misprint. No one had any testing equipment for any of the preview articles...they were all at a mazda press event, on a mazda controlled track, with mazda pr shoving things down their throat. Mazda's offical times continue to be 0-60 in 6.2 and 0-100km in 6.6.
I would "hope" that after the crap they've had to deal with over the rx8 and MSM bhp and performance ratings...that they'd "underrate" the MPS 6 this round.
I believe the Mazda has more boost, and Direct Injection. The Subaru has more displacement. Both have variable valve timing.
The Subie is a tad lighter, but now we're splitting hairs. Either car will embarass most mid-size cars.
-juice
How sweet to have so many choices.
-juice
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2132269877&- ;idx=37
Sweet rims.
It's also in pic 41, where I'm enjoying the nice seats. Ivory will stain easily tho.
43 has the dual exhaust, neatly integrated into the rear fascia.
44 is a side shot.
The mirrors break-away, IIRC. The Mazda 6s I test drove last year didn't have that.
-juice
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I'll have it on again tomorrow at Philly. Hope they show the MZ6 again, and the Mazda5 also.
-juice
The MazdaSpeed6 is expected at the Cleveland auto show 2/26-3/6....chicago auto show 2/11-2/20 ...NY Auto show 3/25-4/3
The mazda5 is expected at NY also.
They might be seen at other shows also, but these are the ones that I have confirmed.
I saw it at NAIAS but it was roped off. I want to get inside.
I mean, it's not a Ferrari.
-juice
Subaru debuted the Tribeca at the same show, and since then they've produce a few hundred for testing, shows, media cars, etc.
I'd hope that by now Mazda would have more than one also.
-juice
Do you go during the Industry Preview days, since you work at a dealer?
-juice