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Comments
Basic models...all with autotragic transmissions...
Hyundai Sonata GL-No options..not even floor mats...
$19,395 $17,957
Honda Accord LX:
$21,090/ $19,034
Mazda6i: with SAB/SAC pkg.
$20,855/ $19,340
Nissan Altima 2.5S with ABS/SAB/SAC
$21,180/ $19,793
Toyota Camry LE with SAB/SAC and VSC which is probably impossible to find.
$22,719/ $20,798 (DARN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
But to be fair, I'll simply compare the LE with SAB/SAC ONLY without VSC
$22,069/ $20,278
The Sonata's biggest price advantage: $3,324.00 (Camry is most expensive)
The Sonata's smallest advantage: $1,460.00 (Against the Mazda6.)
So the Sonata does have a pretty good advantage over its competition...espeically considering how the Sonata has VSC/SAB/SAC STANDARD..
Mid-level models:
Hyundai Sonata GLS: with Premium Pkg.
$21,345 $19,740
Honda Accord EX:
$23,515/ $21,213
Mazda6i: with Convienience Pkg., Bose and Moonroof pkg.
$23,165/ $21,188
Nissan Altima 2.5S with Convience Plus pkg, and ABS/SAB/SAC
$23,680/$21,961
Toyota Camry SE: with Convience B pkg., SAB/SAC pkg.
$23,479/ $21,356
The Sonata's biggest price advantage:$2335-(Altima is most expensive)
The Sonata's smallest price advantage: $1820 (Again,against the Mazda6)
Again, a pretty healthy price advantage...
Top of the line models:
Hyundai Sonata LX: with Accessory Pkg (Sunroof, AM/FM/CD6/MP3)
$24,895/ $22,839
Honda Accord EXV6:
$27,365/ $24,673
Mazda6S Grand Touring:
$26,685/ $24,858
Nissan Altima 3.5SL with SAB/SAC/TRAC:
$28,480/ $26,388
Toyota Camry XLEV6 with SAB/SAC pkg.
$27,499/ $25,010
The Sonata's biggest price advantage:$3585 (The Altima is OVERPRICED!!!)
The Sonata's smallest price advantage:$1790 (Again, against the Mazda6)
So as we can see the Price differences in this class can range quite a bit...I tried to compare a group of models that would be the most comparable and the most sought after (except the Mazda6, which usually comes with the Sport Pkg.)
As we can see, the Sonata still has a healthy price advantage over its competition, but its not a much better deal than say the Mazda6. However, the Sonata does inlude the VSC which is optional for the Camry only..and not even available on the pricy Accord and OVERPRICED Altima 3.5SL.
I believe if I was in the market for another car (I drive an Altima 2.5S) I'd be looking at the Sonata considerably...NOT just based on price, but based on the fact that it offers so MUCH for a great deal. It also is not a bad looking car.
Well, any comments ladies and gentlemen?
OMG...I can't believe I have post 666.
As interested as the folks here are in the Sonata NF, no pent-up demand exists for this model. Considering the relatively high level of production (give it a month or so and the dealers will have plenty of inventory), unless the showfloor pitchman can sell a $50 salt sandwich in a desert, none of these are going out the door for MSRP [or higher].
As good as the new Sonata might be, don't expect people to line up outside the dealerships to get into one. This segment is way too saturated for that.
BTW as far as price goes I can get a Standard Camry with a manual tranny (my preference) for just over $16,000, and a similar Accord LX for just over $17,000. No way will I pay a few thousand more for a Sonata. I am still interested, but the price will need to be quite a bit under list.
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Here in NJ:
Camry LE with SAB/SAC and floor/trunkmats: $21,501/$19,615
Camry SE with Alloys, Convenience Pkg B, SAB/SAC: $23,194/$20,961
Camry XLE V6 with VSC/Side Curtains Pkg, heated front seats, floor/trunkmat (the only way you can get an XLE V6 in NJ really is WITH VSC): $27,896/$25,245
That doesnt change your comparison much, but its interesting to note the difference in Toyota's regional pricing scheme. I think the moral of the story is that if you're looking for a Camry, dont buy it wherever you're from!!!
~alpha
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/global/pr/search.asp
(Use the "2005 Initial Quality Survey" link
Here's the comparison in my world (I'm using all dealer invoices and including destination charges to make things as transparent as possible):
Camry SE 4cyl. 5spd manual $18450 - $700 consumer incentive =$17750
Sonata GL 4cyl. 5spd manual $17111
This is very similarly equipped except a power sunroof is standard on the Camry SE (unavailable on the Sonata GL); the Hyundai has ESC standard (available at extra cost on the Toyota). You can get alloys (who wants steel wheels on a $20K car?) on the Camry SE for an additional $328, but as they aren't available on the Sonata GL, I've left them out of the picture.
So on the entry level models, Hyundai's price advantage shakes down to about 600 bucks. Not a huge difference anymore IMO. Of course, it's only Wednesday and God knows Hyundai's got one hand on the rebate button. Tomorrow this comparison could completely change.
I really think that Hyundai is loading the arsenal with $2-3K rebates so that when the new Accords and Camries hit the lots NEXT spring, it can switch over from competing as "the newest thing" to "the big deal" again. Similar to the Tucson, they'll likely start 'em at $500 or so within a month and increase the level incrementally throughout the year. Hyundai's goal is to make it into the top 5 circle and the co. has shown that it's more than willing to sacrifice margins to get there.
I think all these comparisons illustrate two things:
1) The V6 Sonata is a better value than the I4--maybe why Hyundai expects that 60% of Sonatas sold in the U.S. will be V6s.
2) Hyundai will not be able to wait too long before putting incentives on the new Sonata. It's in a hyper-competitive market, discounts abound, and most people will not pay about the same money for the Sonata as for a car like the Accord or Camry that has a much stronger resale history. The Sonata's resale value may hold up over time too, but it's too soon to tell.
My goodness the SE Region is killing us.
I got all my pricing from cardirect.com
Myself, I can live (or can I?) without the side bags and ESC. My Elantra has them (pretty amazing considering they were standard equipment on a $12K car), but in all candor, considering how many colossal SUVs are roaming about, I figure if I do get t-boned I'm a goner - bags or not. My safety dollars are allocated to snow tires and plastic Jesus fishes.
Personally I can live w/o a sunroof. After seeing the results of IIHS crash tests with and without side airbags/curtains, I would never buy another car without them. Especially now that they are becoming standard on even low-end cars like the '06 Accent, Rio, and Civic and optional on almost all cars.
Not if they are selling them with massive rebates.. In my area you can buy even the base model Sonata at 3K under invoice.. This is the same problem that Ford and GM have. You are trading profit for volume, and this tends to pull down the overall value of the car. Honda's and Toyota's tend to hold their value better because they do not sell them with 3K rebates..
What's the Camry's base 4 cyl put out?????
The training had 6 new 06 Sonatas. 4 GLS V6 models and 2 LX's. No 4 cyl.
This is my opinion but after driving it, I plan to buy one. Driving it was pure joy. We drove the car on an open blacktop with cones to show us how the ESC, ABS, and TC work. They gave us skid pads and straight-a-ways to show us traction and acceleration of the new Lambda 3.3 V6 (235 horse). They let us put the brake to the floor and even dared us to break the brake pedal to show us the ABS capability in conjunction with the ECS. Believe me when I say this, even the average to poor driver will be protected by these safety systems. The pickup of this car is immediate and fun. Off the line is not an issue anymore. Ask a salesman on a test drive to put this car through it's paces. He will let you. I know I will.
The interior is spacious and comfortable. All of the controls are easy to use and not confusing. Trunk space is bigger as well. The sunroof has more width to it than the 05 and the materials in this vehicle do not look cheap but well made.
I have seen the top of the line Accords and Camrys and both are fine cars but with all of the added features and performance of the Sonata, I will choose to buy it hands down. Not to mention the standard 6 airbags and side steel impact beams (I just had my first child 2 weeks ago) the safety to me means a lot. After all, I don't think you should have to pay extra for safety.
If you are an Accord, Camry, or Altima owner or shopper, you need to look at the 06 Sonata. YOU WILL BE SUPRISED. The warranty or price not withstanding anymore. You should look at this car for it's features, safety, and performance just like the other nameplates.
Thanks to all for your time.
As far as safety features are concerned, you've got to consider the principle of diminishing returns. After shoulder belts were introduced, each additional safety feature has added a little bit less and less security. Could side airbags mean the difference between life and death in specific situations? Probably. But as I said, if you're in a 2800 pound passenger car and get t-boned by a Land Cruiser, you can kiss it - side bags or not.
To me, a sunroof is a much more valuable option. That's a feature I KNOW that I'll use. In fact, I use the roof virtually every day it isn't raining from May through September. I simply crack the back windows a inch and the hot air sweeps right out of the car (this technique works so well I hardly ever use the AC) while I get a healthy dose of Vitamin D. Personally, I can't understand why some people don't like sunroofs. I'd bet money the odds of developing rickets from the lack of sun exposure far exceed the odds of getting killed in an accident due to the lack of side airbags. But the NHTSA and IIHS could care less about the prevention of rickets.
I don't get down with autotragics.
Here is the way I see it.
The GL is more in line with the LE
The GLS is inline with both the LE and SE
The LX competes with the XLEV6...
But I guess anything is possible.
And oh yes, I didn't fool with incentives because they differ from area to area, especially with me living in the infamous SET Region.
But they are valid none the less.
The Camry AUTOMATICALLY gets the Toyoguard option added WITHOUT adding it.
That little toyoguard option adds $448!
So without it, my prices line right up with you...
Sorry about that you guys
Is there a Land Cruiser that could hit us, sure, but the chances of that being a fatal accident is minimalized because of the extra safety. It's a he said, she said kind of thing because who knows what would happen in each individual accident.
The thing is though is that with a Camry or a new Sonata, the Sonata has a better chance because of the better safety options. The driver also has a better choice because of the ABS, ECS, TC, and EBD standard features.
I dig a sunroof too and I will buy the LX which has it, but seriously guy, if you had to choose between a sunroof and extra safety (this is if you have kids or loved ones) and a limited budget, which would you choose?
>Oh I am still excited about the Sonata, it's just sort of a letdown to see the first one be about as ugly of one that they could have had. Additionally, no midsize car is going to be proclaimed amazing...they are specifically designed to not be. What I had to say about the Sonata was positive. ALSO, you are saying that it is "at least 4k cheaper" than an Accord...that is not true. That is the biggest problem I had with it. It's a better car, in my opinion...but Hyundais are not good enough in the eye of the public that they can charge the same price. The car was $19,995 (with no dealer markup). It was a 4-cylinder GLS with no sunroof or any other niceties. That is not a sweeping bargain over an Accord. Also, you are incorrect in saying I was comparing a V6 to a 4-cylinder because if you refer to my post, you will see that such is explicity not the case.
Overall opinion: Sonata is a great midsize car, although boring in easily-avoidable ways in certain trims, and it should be slightly less expensive.
Consider the Elantra GT...Granted this car is not so much a sports model, as a more luxurious model, the Sonata could have the same thing done.
The Active Geometry Control Suspension is not on Sonatas in the US as of yet, and when it does come out, we don't know if it will be available on all models or standard on certain models or what... They could easily offer the V6 Sonata in GLS or LX trim but with the black leather with red accents the oversees models get...Especially considering the new Tiburon will almost surely have the Sonata's V6 and definitely a 6-speed transmission and probably the same 5-speed auto when equipped. Just add AGCS.
It's a long shot, but with the inevitability of a 6-speed manual and 5-speed auto in the next 3.3 Lambda Tiburons, it isn't that unlikely of something for us to wish for...What do we have to lose in wishing?
In some states (CA, NJ, NY, for example), it loses 6 hp, down to 154 hp and loses one pound foot of torque, down to 162, with the same EPA ratings, but certified as a PZEV. Toyota's ads trumpet that this engine pollutes the enviornment less in 50,000 miles than would simply painting the average size living room.
Max, thanks for the clarification on the carsdirect.com pricing- that Toyoguard trick sure does explain it, I thought those differences between your pricing and mine certainly were wide! And I agree with you on how you feel the trim lines between the Camry and Sonata line up, though I would add that the Sonata LX should also be compared to the Camry SE V6.
~alpha
~alpha
~alpha
You'd be lucky to get 6% real return (after inflation) for quite some time. I'd be happy to give you plenty of knowledgeable references.
My dealer in Naples, FL just got a Sonata today. I'm going to drive it on Saturday. It's a GLS so I hope it has the premium sport package option. If I like it as much as I think I'm going to, I'll order a fully optioned black LX for my wife. Her '97 Accord is about to die.
Buzz
Because I'm always banging my head on the #$%^&*! things!
The edge goes right over my head on most cars. If the glass went all the way to the door (or close to it) it might be OK, but that hard edge is DANGEROUS.
I walked around the car (which was an LXV6 model), and some things just stuck out in my mind.
To me, the styling is BLAND...VERY bland. It looked like a baked potato IMO. The 17s are nice looking rims, but they weren't that great.
On the inside it was a similar story. The car has nice materials (about on par or better than my Altima) but NOT on Accord/Camry/Passat levels.
The radio placement seemed a little to high, and the controls that govern the automatic climate control seemed a little to low.
Also, the area where the shifter is located would MOVE whenever I touched the shifter.
The front didn't feel as roomy as my Altima either...and the guy swore up and down that the new Sonata is actually bigger size-wise then my Altima.
It may be, but it didn't feel like it. This LX had no sunroof, but the headliner seemed nice enough.
Overall, I think the car is nice enough, but its nothing new IMO. The styling is not as good as the Altima/Mazda6/G6....and the interior is bland, but does have nice enough materials....but it just isn't the type of car I would want.
At 19, most midsize sedans don't appeal to me anyway, that could very well change once I'm older, graduated from college, etc.
But right now, the Sonata just doesn't do much for me.
Case in point. The last generation Altima and the 4th generation Maxima were some of Nissan's worse selling cars because of their bland styling.
Honda and Toyota make bland automobiles...Nissan stepped out and gave the Altima some daring styling (some like it, some don't) but it has been a success for Nissan...and as such, there are rumors of an Altima coupe coming with the redesign for MY 2007.
I think a little chrome or something needs to be added. Styling isn't everything, but the bland ought to be left to Honda and Toyota I think...
Granted, nothing in this class is earth shattering (except maybe the racy Mazda6), I was hoping that it would be a little more stylish than what it is...
Oh well..it will still be a BIG seller for Hyundai I think
The radio on the Camry is in about the same position as on the Sonata--high up on the dash. I suspect it's there so that the nav screen can slip in there at some point (as it does on the Camry).
BTW... take a good look at an Altima, especially the rear offset view, then in your mind subtract about 6-8 inches from the middle of the car. What does it look like? To me, very much like an Elantra GLS. Daring stying? Well, I always liked the Elantra's styling, especially from the rear. But except for a rather interesting rear, the Altima has no more interesting lines than the Sonata, IMO (not that interesting rears are bad...).
~alpha
The trim, what is it supposed to be, wood? Feels cheap and is obviously plasticky. The knobs for the climate controls are cheap feeling as well.
I also found the leather not to be on the Accord/Passat/Camry level too.
Some of the pieces (around the radio for example) just aren't all that great. I didn't find some of the buttons on the dashboard to be of high quality either.
The top of the dash is fine..but the areas below it felt cheap to me.
And with the shifter moving around only by me nudging it, that doesn't seem high
quality to me.
I also found the door handles to be a bit cheap as well.
Its better than before, but its not great IMO...but that's just me.
As far as cars go, the Altima looks nothing like the Elantra, but the new Sonata does look like a BIGGER Elantra. If anything, it looks like a cross between a VW Passat and a Chrsyler 300M.
And as far as subtracting 6-8 inches off...we could do that with ANY car...if we subtract 6-8 inches off the Altima's side profile, it would loose it's Arch shaped styling...then it would have the flatter curve..
But as Alpha said, styling is subjective (thus not really important)
But overall, I think the Sonata is a better car than the last one..but its nothing special for an already saturated market.
Well, someday, if they come out with a Sonata 6 speed manual V6 GT perhaps. After owning 3 base 5-speed Sonata's in-a-row ('89,'95,'00) I am bored with it and I refuse to get an automatic. My GT is quicker than a base Sonata, gets better gas mileage, and has all the toys (CVVT engine, 4w disks, pwr sunroof, cruse, fog lamps, trip computer, ABS/TCS, leather, alloy wheels,100W 6 spkr CD, sport suspension, rear spoiler, keyless remote/alarm) and its just as comfortable as my 2000 Sonata (if not more).
Best of all, after discount and rebates it came in at just over 12.9K (14.1K after sales tax, fees). A 2006 Sonata with those kinda toys would have been pushing 20K.
have a nice day
Honda and Toyota currently makes the best cars in this class, there's really little disputing this. Even one of Ford's top executives admitted a couple years ago Toyota makes a better car and they need to catch up. They are refined, reliable, and innovative with excellant quality control. They are also bland, in order to appeal to the greatest masses and not turn off any particular segment. It's not a secret that this is what Hyundai is going after when they made this car and in my unbiased opinion I believe they have succeeded.
The new V6 Theta engine is made completely out of aluminum, this is something neither Honda nor Toyota have. Many of you may not know that aluminum is a much more expensive metal than steel. It was probably used because it is lighter and it conducts heat very well (they only metals that do it better are copper which corrodes and silver which is way too expensive). As a result it cools easier and doesn't get hot spots and should run more reliably. It also has variable-valve technology, someting Toyota doesn't even have on their V6 although Honda does. And it has dual overhead cams like the Camry but unlike the Accord.
It has a computer overriding transmission like some Camrys but unlike Honda. It also has dual-wishbone suspension like Honda but unlike Toyota. It has four disc brakes which the Camry and Accord only have on their highel level trims. Although ABS is not standard on the Sonata.
And it has things like stability control, traction control, and soon to have Active Geometry Suspension optional. The trouble is, how well will they work and will they need fixing or servicing somewhere down the line? It's roomier than the competition and quieter tha the competition as well.
It's also as bland as the competition. Now I know supporters of the new Sonata say you can't argue style, but it being blander is a no-brainer. If you like bland, that's fine but it also has no character and no emotional appeal that people switch to the Nissan Altima for. Ford made a dramatic progresive restyling of their Taurus in the late 90's as a result sales dropped dramatically and they had to restyle, because like the current Sonata it was more of a love/hate design. Large masses of people just don't buy such a design. Nobody is really going to love it and the neighbors aren't going to envy it either. Personally I love the 2005 Sonata design, the outside looks almost as nice as a Jaguar and the inside is almost as good as a Luxery vehicle, for a bargain price. Maybe because I'm a 25 yr old and don't like boring. This unfortunately is not the direction they are heading.
Will it be reliable? I'm not a fortune-teller. The 2004 Hyundai got top score on initial reliability which is a good step forward but who knows if even they will be reliable 5-10 years from now. This is an all-new design in an all-new factory, it doesn't take a fortune-teller to say there will be some bugs.
* ABS with traction control is standard on every '06 Sonata sold in the U.S.
* Anyone who thinks the new Sonata looks anything remotely like an Elantra or Chrysler 300M needs to have their eyes checked.
Regardless of what people think they know about quality, I think that we can rest assured that Hyundai knows more. The 2004 Sonata was the highest-ranking entry-midsize car in initial quality according to J.D.Power and Associates. We all know that. Hyundai said it on everything. Really think about how much they toted that credential. I don't think they are going to get to the top of the quality ladder only to fall back down. They know what they are doing.
Think about the corporate twin to the Hyundai Elantra, the Kia Spectra. In this last J.D.Power and Associates IQS, the Kia Spectra was second only to the Toyota Prius, a car that goes for about $26,000. It beat out the Honda Civic, and Toyota Corolla. My boyfriend drives a 2005 Volkwagen Jetta and people like him think that the way things look and how they feel are what make up quality (hence why he paid $25,000 for a remaining Jetta wagon). Not the case. The way things like the JDPower IQS are based on how well cars suit American tastes. For instance; if you keep on the news that Edmunds posts on InsideLine, you will recall the recent stories about Mercedes-Benz's lagging quality scores in the United States. They came to the conclusion that the surveys were not representative of the car's overall quality, because a lot of it (or most of it) is decided by certain characteristical elements of the car that are fundamental before quality. Mercedes has a strange array of buttons on their steering wheels, and no less than three stalks poking out of the steering column for you to manage your cruise control, telephone, signals, radio, navigation, and windshield wipers...That is not inline with American consumers. For the most part, we are just going to be baffled by this car before we either mess with it for weeks or read the manual. Thus, the car gets far less points. Mercedes-Benz however, decided that because issues like this weren't representative of the kind of quality like Maxamillion mentions, it was unnecessary for them to make any changes, and that basically, to Mercedes drivers, these issues do not affect overall quality perceptions.
So why did I go through all of that to explain something about the new Sonata? Everything in that car, we can bet, is designed explicitly for obtaining the highest possible scores on JDPower's and others' quality surveys and studies. The radio is up high, because most people like it high. If you've ever read Car&Driver, they are always nagging about how radio controls need to be as high as possible. A recent review of the Sonata I read, which one I do not recall (perhaps someone can post it), noted a "strangeness" in the positioning of the radio controls on the steering wheel. They found it strange that the volume up/down separate buttons were placed together, in a set of three buttons, with the mode button above them. They thought this was a strange approach, seeing as how most other cars with the same controls have the audio buttons sandwiching the mode button. My thoughts are that this is probably an explicit example of something that Hyundai's internal research saw as an ergonomical issue. Thus, why they changed the button formula up a bit.
Also, Maxamillion, your hardware quality squabbles weren't hardware quality squabbles at all. They were assembly quality squabbles. Those of us that have been reading up on the Sonata for a year or more all know that the materials used are top-notch, in terms of price, appearance, touch, and form. High quality, you might even say. Your complain that the Sonata's shifter assembly was moving around is an assembly problem, in all likelihood. My guess is that the car you looked at was coming out of the Alabama plant. This plant has never made cars before, and is employing technologies no one has ever used before. i bet they just haven't worked all of the kinks out, and that things like this will soon be a thing of the past for them. If you look at Consumer Reports, and look at the reliability rankings of any given model, the reliability rankings go up over the product cycle. This is due to the 'working out the bugs' idea...which has been discussed a lot recently in this board. You can't think that the Hyundai Sonata is a bad car because they have a few issues in the first handful of cars...because this same thing happens to all automakers. In fact, the automaker that have this issue dealt with the best is arguably General Motors. They always do great in auto plant quality and production studies. Yet, I am sure that you and I would be in agreeance that this does not make their cars the best on the road. Quality is a two-way street. There are different directions to take, but all roads lead to Rome (if the car will make it that far haha).
Oh, and I think that for those of us that think the Sonata is perhaps a tad too bland, that they are intentionally doing this so that we will move to the Kia brand. Remember the 'Hyundai is Mercedes if Kia is BMW' idea...they probably want us to think it is boring so that we'll get the new Optima when it arrives. They'd probably rather that both sides of the spectrum are more saitisfied, than everyone in the spectrum be just 'so-so' with how satisfied their car is. They'll get more sales that way.
*
And Backy, in Korea, the radio is replaced by a Hyundai Modis navigation system. On WardsAuto.com, I believe that John Krahfcik, President of Production Planning and Strategic Placement (or something like that) said that the new Sonata will get a navigation midway through the product cycle...I think he eluded to it being about the same time that their new rear-drive luxury car arrives...the one above the Azera.
When I drive the new Sonata, it will be back-to-back(-to-back?) with the likes of the Accord, Camry, and/or Altima. Over the same course. That way, these questions of "the switches are smoother on X" and which car is quieter and which car has a better ride etc. won't be left to speculation or personal bias.
"Think about the corporate twin to the Hyundai Elantra, the Kia Spectra. In this last J.D.Power and Associates IQS, the Kia Spectra was second only to the Toyota Prius, a car that goes for about $26,000. It beat out the Honda Civic, and Toyota Corolla. My boyfriend drives a 2005 Volkwagen Jetta and people like him think that the way things look and how they feel are what make up quality"
I'll vouch to what Mononeo says above, AND add that I find the appointments in my 2004.5 Spectra EX appearing and feeling very high in quality!
Granted, I do not spend time riding in many European-built vehicles, so I'm sure there's a few "niceities" that are missing on my Spectra in comparision.
However, I have spent hundreds of thousands of miles in domestic iron, and my Spectra's kicking butt on that front *big time*.
Here's a link to a composite graphic that summarizes the J.D. Power Spectra-related info:
http://spectraman.freeservers.com/jdp_spectra.jpg
-SM