Hybrids and HOV Lanes

larsb

quote-"I don't understand this statement. If two cars are PZEV and get the same MPG, they will pollute exactly the same, regardless of how they achieve that MPG reading."-end quote

The goal is to try to provide an INCENTIVE for people to drive high MPG cars. Thus the dangling carrot of the HOV lane. Urging people to drive a car "only because it is a low polluter" is ABSOLUTELY not going to work for more than about 2% of the population.

If non-hybrid high mpg cars can have low emissions and also be four or five seater cars that are palatable to the masses, then I'm all for them.

Remember a major part of the HOV lane theory is not only to reduce the number of cars on the road, but also to reduce the overall emissions - thus the hybrids fit well into that goal...

Problem is, that combination is hard to find. Do you know of any high mpg cars like the Prius and HCH that are non-hybrid and pollute as little and require no owner compromises? I don't......

rfruth

Like I said there isn't a HEV in HOV exemption in Texas but here a smaller vehicle is preferable in the HOV cause they are just one lane wide and some have cement walls on each side so there is no getting out of the lane if a car breaks down, if its something the size of a Prius or HCH and the driver can manage to get to one side of the HOV lane before coming to a stop other semi sane size vehicles can squeeze by, now if its a full size car city bus or SUV the hunt is over and thanks to the walls on both sides of the HOV lanes anyone and everyone behind the disabled vehicle gets to wait.

gagrice

The very few times we have used the HOV lanes headed north out of San Diego, someone is driving 55 mph and holding up the whole lane. I find it much quicker not to use that lane. Now the private lanes on Interstate 15 that you pay to use just fly along with very few cars. That I can see using if you commute. Two people in Civic are saving much more fuel than one in a Prius. Leave the HOV for carpoolers and fine the violators and people blocking traffic.

larsb

quote-" someone is driving 55 mph and holding up the whole lane."-end quote

You mean during rush hour? And the other lanes are going faster or slower? Or do you mean off-rush hours?

If you mean off rush hours, and the other lanes are moving faster, then you don't need the HOV lane anyway - get into the lanes that are moving faster to pass the slow person and then get back in the HOV lane if you want and speed your tail off....

If you mean rush hour, it would be SHOCKING if the other non-HOV lanes are moving faster than 55 (and thus faster than the HOV lane) during rush hour, so you would be better off in the HOV lane, No?

In Phoenix, the only time the HOV lane is moving slower than other lanes during rush hours is if there is a wreck blocking the HOV somewhere down the line.

gagrice

"You mean during rush hour?"

I mean anytime of the day. The worst part about the HOV lanes are the lack of entry/exits. You can go for miles without being able to get in or out for that matter. And yes during rush hour the traffic flows at a bit over 75 mph until some fool cuts someone off and slows the whole system down to a crawl. Then it is back up to 75 mph. A quite a long section of Interstate 15 North of San Diego is 75 mph limit. Of course that section is flowing at 80 + mph. I was trying to stay with the flow the other day and some older lady in a Camry was in the left lane just cruising along a little over 70 mph blocking that lane causing many to go around. If you cannot keep up with the flow you should use surface streets. When you drive onto any freeway in Southern CA you need to be going at least 60 mph when you hit the end of the on ramp. If you drive 55 mph in any lane of a So CA freeway you will be blocking traffic. If the hybrids cannot get that 45 mpg at 75 mph they should not be given that HOV Privilege.

stevedebi

" If the hybrids cannot get that 45 mpg at 75 mph they should not be given that HOV Privilege."

This brings up an interesting point. Many posts indicate that to get really high MPG, one has to drive slower, which we don't want in the HOV lanes (No way to pass).

rfruth

Wow during rush hour the traffic flows at a bit over 75 mph in San Diego, here in Houston 25 MPH is considered very good, heck the speed limit is 65 so 75 in the HOV lanes wouldn't wash.

gagrice

"Many posts indicate that to get really high MPG, one has to drive slower"

Exactly what I was alluding to. That is fine just don't block traffic for your own self satisfaction. I have known people that would get out and block traffic at 55 mph and act like it was their right. Whether someone agrees with the way things are on the freeways is not important. I may like driving at 60 mph. If that is impeding traffic then I am a hazard. If the flow on the freeways were to be say 20 mph less how much longer would it take for people to get home and to work? How much more congestion would we have on those same highways if everyone was driving 25% slower? To put it in monetary language. If my time is worth $85 per hour and it takes me 25% longer to get to a work location and return, that can mean $40-$50 more I have to charge the customer. Where is the savings there?

gagrice

"heck the speed limit is 65 so 75 in the HOV lanes wouldn't wash."

65-70 MPH is the speed limit on most of our freeways. It is a joke except in a few communities that will ticket as a means of raising revenue. When you get on the Interstate freeways going North and East to Las Vegas 80 MPH is not uncommon. Though you can get ticketed on certain stretches.

rfruth

There are quite a few laws that are a joke thus most people ignore them so is it okay for me to ignore them to ?


I know what you mean about traffic flowing at 80 MPH but if i'm doing 60 MPH in the right lane and thats not fast enough for someone (posted limit 45 min 65 max) what should I do pull off in the grass till everyone passes ? Don't get me wrong I have no desire to slow anyone down nor am I the traffic police but I do pay my share of road taxes and refuse to be intimidated if well within the law.

gagrice

I usually keep up with the flow of traffic on freeways. I would think that 60 mph in the right lane is not an impediment to traffic. If I am sight seeing on back roads, I always pull over and let others by if they are close behind me. I think blocking other drivers no matter how fast they are going is hazardous. Courteous driving is good for all who share the road.

rfruth

Hope this becomes law, solo hybrids should be allowed in HOV lanes, that said there needs to be limits and they should be enforced - snip - Last week, Evelyn Hall of Soquel asked when she could drive her new hybrid solo in car pool lanes. Initially, sources with Caltrans and the Department of Motor Vehicles told me that a state law allowing her to do so would go into effect Jan. 1, 2005. However, since then, I’ve learned that the law can’t be enacted until Congress and the president sign off on it as well.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/November/22/local/s- - - - tories/06local.htm

electrictroy

Hybrids don't belong in *multi-passenger* lanes. Should an Escape Hybrid that only gets 25 mpg be allowed, while someone with a 40 mpg Civic or Jetta is forbidden?

No.

The purpose of HOV lanes is to increase mpgs (25 mpg car * 3 people = 75 mpg), but MAINLY to *reduce the number of vehicles* on the road and alleviate stop-n-go traffic. Hybrids don't reduce the traffic load.

larsb

the CA initiative is designed to increase Hybrid ownership by allowing Hybrids earning "more than 45 MPG per EPA numbers" to use the HOV lanes.

Good idea to encourage Hybrid ownership and cleaner air and reduced fossil fuel usage.

robertsmx

I think the initiative should be about getting more mileage and lowered emissions (both at the same time) in every direction. Hybrid would then be one way of achieving it. If another way could be figured out, why not?

What about motorcycles?

bhill2

In California, at least, motorcycles are allowed in the HOV lanes. As are, I believe, 2-seaters with 2 people, even where the rule is 3 occupants minimum.

larsb

I agree that HOV lane priveleges should be granted to low emission and high MPG cars of ALL types.

Problem is, diesels in CA (until clean diesel arrives in 2006 if you believe the hype) are not kosher from the "green" side, so they only qualify on the MPG side.

robertsmx

I agree. Thats is why I mentioned that only "all-around" vehicles need to qualify for the privileges, and also based on class. I don't expect a minivan to achieve 40 mpg any time soon, but I also see why people buy them. Perhaps some % improvement over whatever is CAFE regulation would be nice, rather than a set number for all (although CAFE regulation itself has issues).

explorerx4

in the hov lanes becasue they are more efficient driving in that slow traffic jam.

rfruth

    So we should punish those in clean efficient vehicles ?

explorerx4

" So we should punish those in clean efficient vehicles ?"

nobody is being punished, just treated the same as other single passenger vehicles. a hybrid does not cut down on traffic.

electrictroy

Why should a 30 mpg suv hybrid be allowed, while 40 mpg Civics/Echos/Jettas are excluded?????

I know I'd be upset if I saw a giant SUV using the HOB while my smaller, more efficient 40 mpg car is stuck in traffic.

Troy

Kirstie_H

Cuz it's not called the "high-efficiency vehicle" lane. It's the high occupancy vehicle lane. You can get more people in a Suburban than in an Insight - that's the kind of math I understand.

Now, if you're talking about wanting to entirely change the initially intended purpose for the lane, that's another story.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

larsb

I think you are discussing things which are not at all in the intent or the design of the "Hybrids in the HOV Lane" program as intended by the legislators.

The MAIN POINT of the initiatives to allow +45 mpg Hybrids into the car pool lane is "encourage more people to BUY high MPG/low polluting cars" -

In other words, dangle the carrot of "you will spend less time in traffic because you can use the car pool lane" in front of car buyers.

It has nothing to do with efficiency, or the number of people in the car, or the type of vehicle.

It is intended to "drive" people, encourage people, to buy and drive higher MPG cars.

robertsmx

Cuz it's not called the "high-efficiency vehicle" lane. It's the high occupancy vehicle lane. You can get more people in a Suburban than in an Insight - that's the kind of math I understand.

"Can". And when they do, they are allowed.

daysailer

The HOV lanes were intended to reduce congenstion in our cities, not to be an incentive to buy more efficient cars. In fact, HOV lanes may encourage the use of LESS efficient vehicles since one needs a largeer vehicle to carry passengers than to travel alone.

To allow single occupancy hybrids to use HOV lanes ENCOURAGES gongestion! Public encentives for efficiency may be appropriate, but they should target the behaviours that contribute to that goal, not those that are self-defeating.

mirth

My only real problem with this legislation is that it singles out only a specific technology, rather than the desired results. If I had an ICE car that made 40 mpg with PZEV, why couldn't I use the HOV lanes? I think the legislature is just jumping on the hybird "buzz" and not really thinking things through.

electrictroy

The issue here is should a *fuel-inefficient* 30 mpg SUV Hybrid be allowed in the HOV lane...

...with only ONE person on board?

I vote no.

But Ford is trying to lobby/bribe politicians to allow this *fuel-inefficient* vehicle in the HOV.... even with only 1 person.

gagrice

The issue here is should a *fuel-inefficient* 30 mpg SUV Hybrid be allowed in the HOV lane...

I think it will become a non issue before it ever gets off the ground. Until the Feds re-write the laws, those lanes are for carpooling only. For one thing I wonder if any of the hybrids will get 45 mpg going 75 mph in the HOV lane. That is the speed limit on some of CA's interstates with carpool lanes.

electrictroy

California has 75 mpg speed limits? I knew "empty" states like Utah or Wyoming had 75, but I thought California was too densely populated.

gagrice

Most of Interstate 15 from San Diego to Las Vegas is 75 mph... only slows to 65 going through the major cities...

robertsmx

Do they have carpool lanes going from San Diego to Las Vegas?

Nonetheless, I don't expect hybrids (other than Insight) to deliver 45 mpg or better going 75 mph. They could, just not sure. But, I do expect them to deliver better mileage than non-hybrid counterparts.

gagrice

They have car pool lanes where the traffic is heaviest. I would think someone that is really into hypermileage would not want to run in the fast lane. I think that tax credits would be a better incentive for all high mileage vehicles.

rfruth

   Translation no carpool lanes going from San Diego to Las Vegas

gagrice

They have different types on the very congested Interstate 15.

http://argo.sandag.org/fastrak/march23.html

In San Diego, drivers pay between 50 cents and $4 to drive on two lanes separated from the rest of the freeway, along an eight-mile stretch of Interstate 15.
The price can change every six minutes. Cars are equipped with windshield responders; the more cars in the HOT lanes, the higher the price. That keeps the lanes from getting clogged, officials there said.

electrictroy

How does raising the price prevent clogging??? Is there a sign which says, "The price just raised to $4.00"?

I like the idea of demand-based-pricing...I'm just curious how it executes.

Troy

larsb

Study: Hybrids Clog HOV Lanes

Updated: Friday, Jan. 7, 2005 - 10:42 AM

 

Virginia Department of Transportation spokeswoman Joan Morris says in 2006 the exemption for hybrids in the HOV lanes will end.

By The Associated Press

 

The number of hybrid vehicles using Interstate 95 car-pool lanes more than tripled between last spring and October, leaving those lanes nearly as congested as the ones they are supposed to relieve, according to a Virginia transportation task force study.

 

Owners of fuel-efficient hybrids, which use a combination of gas and electric power and produce less pollution than regular cars, are allowed to drive alone on high-occupancy vehicle lanes.

 

See entire article here:

 

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=30&sid=382461

gagrice

"I got it, I ain't got it"

 

That would be upsetting to buy a hybrid for that reason then get booted. It is a double edge sword. To get the maximum mileage from a hybrid as the hypermilers do, you are not going to be keeping up with the 70-75 MPH traffic. It would not be good to be in the HOV lane slowing traffic. I thought the whole thing was up in the air with the Federal government.

electrictroy

Well hybrids don't belong there. The purpose of HOV lanes is to encourage car-pooling & *decrease the number of cars on the road*. A Prius with only 1 driver inside does not achieve that goal.

 

troy

larsb

As far as keeping up with the 70-75 mph traffic and still getting good mileage in a Hybrid, I had doubted that also. Until Dec 22, 2004.

 

On Dec 22nd, 2004, at 1:00 p.m., I filled up my 2004 manual tranny Honda Civic Hybrid in Phoenix AZ and set sail on Interstate 10 East to El Paso, Tx. My car had myself, my two kids, and a fully packed trunk and passenger seat. I estimate the total load with people and cargo was about 500 pounds.

 

About 6 hours and 447 miles later, I filled up again at Sams' Club, and I put in 8.481 gallons. That's 447 miles in 8.481 gallons, which

converts to 52.7 miles per gallon. And that's a average speed of ABOUT 74.5 miles an hour for the run from Phoenix to El Paso.

 

My 2004 at the time had about 10,275 miles on it and I have achieved 47.1 miles per gallon during mostly city driving over my first 14 tanks.

 

So give me a wide-open HOV lane and I expect to do just fine with my MPG. It CAN be done.

gagrice

I would think you could do better on the highway with the Civic Hybrid than the Prius II. Yours and others X-country trips have shown consistent good mileage at 70+ mph. In the city maybe the Prius has the edge with the EV mode.

 

PS

Do you use the HOV lanes in AZ?

larsb

No, HOV lanes not open for Hybrids in AZ. They were "for a while" when there was confusion about whether they as Hybrids rated the "alt fuel" license plate.

 

My co-worker who has leased and EV1 and owned an Insight, a 2003 HCH, and a 2004 Prius, had the Alt Fuel plate on his Insight back in 2001 or 2002, and after the Hybrids were declared "not alt fuel" for AZ purposes, the AZ DMV rep CAME TO HIS HOUSE To get the plate from him !!

 

It was funny !!!

robertsmx

The primary purpose of HOV lanes is, indeed, to reduce congestion. But that isn’t the end of it. You want lower congestion to not only reduce driving time but also reduce pollution and improve fuel economy.

 

Most HOV lanes require at least two people. If the sole purpose of HOV lanes were to help drivers get to their destination quickly, then yes, allowing alternative fuel vehicles in HOV does not make sense.

 

But if the other two issues (pollution and fuel economy) are a part of the game, a consideration to alternative fuel vehicles makes sense to me. A Suburban carrying two people allowed on HOV but a hybrid carrying one person but with less than half the pollutants and better than twice the fuel economy being disallowed wouldn’t make sense to me.

 

This is definitely more complicated than a simple binary set up. As in everything else, standards should be established, not necessarily around alternative fuel vehicles alone, but exceptional vehicles in general.

yerth10

The purpose of HOV lanes is to encourage car-pooling & *decrease the number of cars on the road*.

 

That's correct.

 

However they allowed hybrid vehicles since they had a great technology capable of reducing gasolene consumption and pollution and also the initial vehicles like Prius & Insight gave more than 45 mpg.

 

They can allow Escape Hybrid, since it is only a 4 cyclinder vehicle and is capable of carrying more stuff for those families who really need.

 

But Accord Hybrid which is purely a performance vehicle should not be allowed.

 

Certainly V8 hybrid vehicles like Silverado and Yukon should be denied access to HOV.

 

In short only the hybrids with V4 should be allowed. Somewhere we have to draw a line.

robertsmx

Again, you cannot go about making rules using oversimplified rules. They have to include a thought process. Being able to carry stuff cannot be an excuse to use HOV lanes. If it were, we might as well see 18-wheelers clogging it up.

 

Impact on fuel economy, emissions and other effects of a typical congestion have to be weighed in, be it a vehicle designed for one person (bikes are allowed in most HOVs) or a family of nine.

xcel

Hi All:

 

___Food for thought.

 

___You own a PZEV based Accord I4 and are receiving > 45 mpg because you know how. So how does the dirtier rated Prius II and HCH fit into the same category? The PZEV Accord buyer just got the shaft in terms of HOV lanes. The whole issue of Hybrid’s with a single occupant in any type of HOV lane is a boondoggle imho.

 

___Are there not HOV rules in some states stating 3 occupants or bikes as a minimum? I don’t remember if I saw these signs in the Phoenix highway system, in and around San Francisco, or possibly LA late last year but one of these locales had posted this rule?

 

___Good Luck

 

___Wayne R. Gerdes

explorerx4

hov lanes are just that; "HIGH OCCUPANCY". they are not 'LEV' lanes. if you have the required number of occupants, you are allowed to drive in the hov lane(unless commercial). already said this and more, a while ago. try lobbying for a 'lev' lane.

w.r.g., my pzev focus has an upshift light, bit no tach(need the sport package for that). at around 8k miles, at less than 1/2 a tank, i put in some premium octane gas. my upshift light behavior seems to have changed. it does not light up as soon or as often. it's kind of a fuzzy thing at this point.

electrictroy

"But if the other two issues (pollution and fuel economy) are a part of the game, a consideration to alternative fuel vehicles makes sense to me. A Suburban carrying two people allowed on HOV but a hybrid carrying one person but with less than half the pollutants and better than twice the fuel economy being disallowed wouldn’t make sense to me."

 

.

 

(1) The Federal DOT disagrees with you. They say HOV = high occupancy vehicle = carpooling = 2 or more persons, in order to encourage fewer cars on the road, reduce congestion, and shrink drive times. They have ruled that pollution-reducing/mpg-raising options are irrelevant... they're disallowed.

 

(2) A 1-person Civic HX getting 45 mpg & rated SULEV in California being disallowed while a 45mpg Prius is allowed... simply because one carries a large battery... that doesn't make sense either. They are equally clean, so why give one special royal treatment?

 

(3) If you want to encourage fuel-economy purchases, there are better ways than subverting the meaning of HOV (redefinition of words ala 1984) and clogging the HOV lanes. Provide dollar refunds through tax breaks.

 

troy

robertsmx

1. I don't know about that. Why do you think carpooling is encouraged in the first place? Only to have reduced driving time? Or could it be related to environmental reasons as well?

 

2. I didn't say "only" hybrids be allowed. Any kind of vehicle that helps achieve the bottomline should be, after all, motor cycles are. The question, however, is understanding the bottomline.

 

3. Fuel economy is only one aspect of environmental issues. The question is: Why HOV? Why are (single rider) motorcycles allowed?

gagrice

(3) If you want to encourage fuel-economy purchases, there are better ways than subverting the meaning of HOV (redefinition of words ala 1984) and clogging the HOV lanes. Provide dollar refunds through tax breaks.

 

I agree with your thinking on the HOV lanes. If it was purely based on MPG it would be fair and have some merit. I think the state governments are grasping at straws with the whole higher mileage vehicle move. It costs the same for a Prius to use the road as an equal weight ICE vehicle. Yet the State gets less than half the road tax. Nebraska is adding a tax on the license to compensate for the hybrid loss. The bottom line is the hybrid does not benefit anyone but the owner when compared to any of the other 30 some odd PZEV vehicles.

 

I think charging for use of the HOV lanes is a better plan. It seems to be working in San Diego. I never use the roads when it is rush hour so I have to go by what I read.