Hybrids and HOV Lanes

alp8

If even ONE less hybrid sold, my statement would be correct.

I am sure my statement is correct. Maybe you don't live in California? Other states have more lenient HOV laws than California does, allowing even more hybrids to use their HOV lanes.

I never said hybrids wouldn't sell. I said "if you don't let hybrids drive in HOV lanes, less hybrids will be purchased."

stevedebi

"I never said hybrids wouldn't sell. I said "if you don't let hybrids drive in HOV lanes, less hybrids will be purchased." "

I still disagree with your statement. They would sell just fine anyway.

alp8

so, are you being disagreeable or something else? Do you have a problem with logic?

I didn't say they would not sell just fine. If you don't think that one less hybrid would sell, then you are just uninformed. There are posts almost every day about people wanting to buy hybrids because of the HOV bonus. Maybe all those people are lying.

stevedebi

"
I didn't say they would not sell just fine. If you don't think that one less hybrid would sell, then you are just uninformed. There are posts almost every day about people wanting to buy hybrids because of the HOV bonus. Maybe all those people are lying."

Nope, I wasn't disagreeing with your statement about 1 less vehicle, only about the conclusions that you drew - that hybrid sales would suffer. Your statements went from single instance to mass generalization.

In the big scheme of things, hybrid sales were fine without incentives, and (especially with higher gas prices) would still have been through the roof.

alp8

OK, I thought we were having more than a semantic argument

I agree with your basic premise.

explorerx4

i agree with you. the point is reduce traffic, not get a hybrid driver to where they want to go faster than another driver. a side benefit of hybrids in the 'regular' traffic lanes is that they do better in 'city' type conditions, so that is where they belong.

flopshot

Not to interject in this argument, but I disagree with Stevedebi. Here in CA, people are buying Prius's for the sole purpose of being able to drive the HOV lane. In my central CA (San Jose) area, Toyota Camry Hybrids are selling for MSRP, but Prius's are selling for more than MSRP, and are costing almost the same as the TCH. Why? Because the Camry does not qualify for the California HOV-exemption, since it is not rated for >45mpg. I know of 3 people personally who said they would have bought a gasoline Civic over the Prius if not for the fact that they can drive the HOV. But again, this is in central CA, where gas prices are thru the roof, and traffic is a nightmare.

terry92270

And your beef is what?

The whole idea behind the exemption for HOV lanes was to encourage Hybrid use. Sounds as if that is working, and you should be happy, because there is less pollution, one car at a time.

stevedebi

"Because the Camry does not qualify for the California HOV-exemption, since it is not rated for >45mpg. I know of 3 people personally who said they would have bought a gasoline Civic over the Prius if not for the fact that they can drive the HOV."

Did they check with the DMV? I believe they were only granting 75,000 stickers. Or did they up the number and I didn't notice?

Hybrids would help pollution more if they were restricted to outside the HOV lanes - they do their best to reduce pollution in congested traffic.

HOV lanes should be used to reduce congestion by encouraging car pooling.

midnightcowboy

"Not to interject in this argument, but I disagree with Stevedebi. Here in CA, people are buying Prius's for the sole purpose of being able to drive the HOV lane."
That is out and out wrong!

The "O" stands for "Occupancy" not "Mileage"

Can't hybrid owners spell???

MiCow

larsb

The purpose of the HOV lanes is what?

To reduce congestion, thus reducing AIR POLLUTION.

The purpose of a high-mileage hybrid is what?

To increase MPG and reduce AIR POLLUTION.

You see the common ground?

That's why the hybrids in the HOV lane system was born. For the sake of clean air.

If you are against the program, are you also against CLEANER AIR?

midnightcowboy

Larsb,

Your logic is flawed.

Unless every car with two+ occupants has twice the polutions as a hybrid, then its AIR POLUTION per person is better!!!

Even a diesel bus , which has a very high polution engine, has a much much much less AIR POLUTION per person than a hybrid.

Hybrids should stay off HOV lanes unless they have the correct High Occupancy and can drive with reasonable acceleration and can drive with reasonable speed.

Cheers,

MidCow

P.S.- If you are truly concerned about AIR POLUTION and having CLEANER AIR, then champion mass transportation, including mass transportation infrastucture and not hybrids.

larsb

It's not flawed logic to say that more hybrids on the road means cleaner air, because that is 100% true. Every hybrid that replaces a car which is not as clean is a step toward cleaner air.

But I'm not saying hybrids are a "fix-all" to anything.

But the point is, it's in the interest of ALL OF US, You included MidCow, for more hybrids to be on the roads, and more PZEV cars.

I would even be in favor of granting PZEV cars access to the HOV lane, because they are the kings of clean air when it comes to gasoline-powered vehicles.

Unfortunately, the reality is that mass transporation is too limited a system for the vast majority of the country. I live 5.3 miles from my work and I cannot use it because the buses do not fit into my schedule, and the Light Rail they are installing in Phoenix (at the taxpayer cost of 43 MILLION DOLLARS PER MILE) is not going to come by my house either.

And the "per person" air pollution figure matters far less than the "per vehicle" air pollution figure, because you are never going to get 100 million people to carpool. It's just not practical in today's world, when people have to run errands and trips to the doctor and pick up kids etc etc etc during their normal work day.

I like to be realistic when possible, and the reality is that we KNOW hybrids are cleaner, so let's get more of them on the road, whatever carrot we can dangle.

alp8

this is such a lame bone of contention between the anti-hybrid and pro-hybrid folks

if the HOV lanes were at capacity, then we shouldn't allow single occupant vehicles in them. HOWEVER, and this is the KEY point, so don't miss it: HOV lanes have capacity to spare, so we should use that capacity in whatever way we think serves some social good - giving preference to those social goods that are connected with building those lanes in the first place, and reducing air pollution IS a social good that qualifies

There is an argument that can be made that allowing hybrids into HOV lanes will increase congestion, as the new hybrid drivers used to be HOV drivers who would carpool. Now they drive alone.

That is worth studying, but I don't think the number of hybrids allowed in HOV lanes is gonna make a real difference either way. And there is benefit to encouraging the technology.

There are all sorts of social goods that can be aided through HOV lanes: allowing emergency vehicles to use them; allowing mass transit vehicles to use them

having HOV lanes sit with un-used capacity is just stupid

midnightcowboy

Larsb said:

"And the "per person" air pollution figure matters far less than the "per vehicle" air pollution figure, because you are never going to get 100 million people to carpool. It's just not practical in today's world, when people have to run errands and trips to the doctor and pick up kids etc etc etc during their normal work day.

I like to be realistic when possible, and the reality is that we KNOW hybrids are cleaner, so let's get more of them on the road, whatever carrot we can dangle."

I agree 100 million people are not going to carpool, neither are 100 million people going to repalce their current cars with hybrids or PZEVs.

That thought train about as realistic as thinking you can lower the ocean level with a tablespoon. Just look at the percentages. There are more and more new cars on the road each day. For every hybrid that replaces a gas or diesael burner, there are 100s of brand new cars introduced as new additions that don't replace anything. So in spite of phenomenal hybrid and PZEV sales the total polution content continues to increase.

Cheers,

MidCow

terry92270

Exactly right, Cowboy.

The newest trend in government is to actually "tax" automobiles per mile driven, thus forcing those who drive the most, contribute the most wear and tear to the roadways, and all the support services to keep them open and running, to pay the most.

In fact several states have implemented this plan, or are close to doing so.

Offsets are given for electric/hybrid and HOV's. Thus while you and I might have to start paying an additional $300 per year over what we now pay in "license fees" and registration, our Grandmothers would be paying perhaps half what they do now.

larsb

So your attitude is that we should "do nothing" at all?

I reject that attitude and will continue to push for hybrid and PZEVs and clean diesels (when they get here) to help clean the air.

terry92270

You can push all you want, but a million people pushing, and billions on advertising, won't make people adopt the technology any sooner than they will....

The alternative is for the "Government" to mandate there use. Does anyone really want to live in a country that would do that?

alp8

You can push all you want, but a million people pushing, and billions on advertising, won't make people adopt the technology any sooner than they will....



It won't? That's funny - b ecause people do seem to be buying hybrids. And since it CAN'T be because of the technology, it MUST be because of the "pushing " (guilt) and the advertising

The fact is, people drink Coca Cola because of the advertising, not because of the taste. No one can taste the difference between a decent generic cola and Coke, yet half the friggin world drinks coke. You can pretend advertising/marketing doesn't play a role. Tellthat to Coke's marketing department that spends more money in a month than ALL of our salaries combined. Yeah, marketing has no impact......

No government is going to mandate our use of hybrids. No, I don't want to live in that kind of country. But nice completely irrelevant example to try and take the discussion down some useless rathole.

midnightcowboy

"So your attitude is that we should "do nothing" at all?"

Never said that, your words not mine. I just think that hybrids are the knee-jerk short term answer, as turbos were in the mid 70s.

YMMV,

MidCow

larsb

short-term is better than "no term"

stevedebi

"I know of 3 people personally who said they would have bought a gasoline Civic over the Prius if not for the fact that they can drive the HOV."

I just read that there are less than 1500 stickers available. Also, the HOV access only goes through 2007 unless new legislation is passed.

alp8

I believe that is correct that it is not permanent. But I could see how it would be worth A LOT of money to be able to drive in the HOV lane.

PF_Flyer

Let's not let this turn into personal fight about hybrids please.

Everyone's postion is pretty clear. Increasing the volume doesn't do anything to reinforce your points.

Just because someone posts an opinion you disagree with, that doesn't make it an attack on you personally. I've removed the off topic personal back and forth. Time to move on and get back to the topic please.

gagrice

There are two Prius on eBay and they play up the fact that they have the HOV CA stickers. Are they transferred on sale?

larsb

10,000 more HOV stickers to be issued in CALI

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has signed legislation that will allow owners of hybrids and other alternative fuel vehicles to drive in carpool lanes, even while driving solo, until 2011. The legislation, authored by Assemblyman Ted Lieu, D-Torrance, also increases the number of hybrid-carpool permits in the state from 75,000 to 85,000.

gagrice

It does not affect me in the least. It is totally counter productive. If two were carpooling in there Camry go out and buy two Prii so they can go alone you are using more fuel and polluting more. Plus doubling the traffic. I see no good reason for it. Arnie is pandering to the left for votes pure and simple. He has been shot down on all his good ideas and wants to sign something into law. Let the commuters shoot it out on the freeways.

terry92270

Well, since he is up double digits over his opponent, it appears to have worked.

gagrice

I did not know anyone was running against him. If CA politics are on a par with Federal, the other side has no one they can run that has a chance.

terry92270

It was theirs to lose. Several months ago, the "Governator" was at less than 50% popularity.....now he has turned it around.

gagrice

I can tell you he did not turn it around by sticking to the ideals & promises that he was first elected for. That's politics American style.

midnightcowboy

Maybe they can make an "HOV Hybrid lane Only" and restrict those slow moving single occupant beasts to it!

Sounds like an attempt to counteract the loss of the tax credit.

Either that or the smog is much worse in Califonia than anyone ever imagined.

There is a time and a place for single occupant hybrid cars!
There is a time and a place for HOV multiple occupant cars.
And the time and place for each should be parallel universes asymtotic lines that never meet!.

Just remember that all of the HOV incentives and government tax incentives on Hybrids can mean only one thing!

Good Luck the End is Near,

MidCow

P.S.- I understand legislation is underway to alllow schizophrenics to use the HOV lanes also.

gagrice

allow schizophrenics to use the HOV lanes also.

I think a case can be made for single parents with a hectic lifestyle or grandparents wanting to get to see their grandchildren without fighting traffic :shades:

If you are taking your dog to the vet is that considered two occupants? Or do our laws discriminate against species? hmmmm

midnightcowboy

Only if it is a larger breed dog. Small dogs and cats are being descriminated against!

We need to have the democrats redefine the meaning of the word "Occupant" !

Read my lips, "I did not have have a No-Occupant in my car without an HOV sticker"

LOL,

MidCow

kingsley1

Question -

In California, I know that the original 75,000 stickers were issued in 2006 and another 10,000 are being released Jan 1 2007. I bought a Prius in December and am waiting for my license plate #s, so I can send in my paperwork. Does anyone have any insight to how fast the 10,000 stickers will go or if there are plans to issue additional stickers? I feel like the clock is already ticking...

stevedebi

This from the LA times:

DOT To Stop Issuing Hybrid HOV stickers

It would appear they are clogging up the HOV lanes...

tpe

I somewhat doubt its the number of hybrids that are causing the problem. As the article pointed out, far less than 1% of all registered vehicles in CA are hybrids and not all of these even qualify for the HOV lane. Is it possible that drivers of hybrids are more likely to strictly adhere to the posted speed limit? The flow of traffic on most interstates that I've driven is typically 10 mph over the posted limit. A vehicle travelling 10 mph below the prevailing speed of traffic is going to be very disruptive.

stevedebi

"A vehicle travelling 10 mph below the prevailing speed of traffic is going to be very disruptive."

From a commuting perspective, clogging is clogging; it doesn't matter if it is speed or numbers.

larsb

This compares with what I have seen for my last three trips to California:

Not Cloggin it Up

One less reason to hate hybrids
STICKERED CARS AREN'T CLOGGING BAY AREA CARPOOL LANES
By Gary Richards Mercury News Article Launched: 06/12/2007 01:30:58 AM PDT

The first look at how many hybrid cars are being driven in Bay Area carpool lanes may come as a surprise. They aren't choking the lanes as once feared.

Caltrans' latest traffic count shows that only 6 percent of cars in the region's busiest diamond lanes are exempt hybrids - Toyota Priuses, or Honda Civics or Honda Insights - containing just one occupant. That also includes vehicles powered by natural gas or electricity, which have no limit.

It's far fewer than some expected when the state first permitted some solo drivers the luxury of speeding up their commute by moving into a carpool lane.

Even still, officials have no plans to allow more solo drivers in hybrids to enter the region's growing number of commuter lanes.

"Hybrids initially made up around 3 to 5 percent of traffic in the diamond lanes," said Caltrans' David Seriani, who oversees carpool operations in the Bay Area. "So now that has increased a bit. But at this rate and for the most part there is no conclusive evidence that they are having significant impacts."

So there, HOV hybrid use haters. Nyah Nyah Nyah !!!