I looked at that same AWD Sienna--very nice. And it does seem to me that the price increase in the '05 Odyssey may have affected the issue of "value." But I think your value equation is sort of comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing the MSRP of the Odyssey with your negotiated price for a Sienna that I recall was in the 35K range MSRP-wise. I know that MSRP on the Odyssey will probably be the rule for awhile, but I think a true comparison requires that you give an Odyssey buyer the same potential for negotiation as was apparently available on the Sienna.
Well, we're talking about prices RIGHT NOW. And an EX-L/RES is going to sell for MSRP of $32,410 for the foreseeable future. And the Sienna price I negotiated ($2K off of $35,106 MSRP) was six months ago, so I assume it can be duplicated or even bettered today. Therefore, I consider it a true comparison. It isn't realistic to wait to compare the value of both vans only when discounts are available on both.
I don't think you can get RES without NAVI. From the list of trim levels, the only Tourings we get are base and NAVI+RES together. I would question the knowledge of the sales guy. And 41K out the door sounds like there's some mark up and high T&L. What's the T&L cost in TN?
Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it, and a way under which a slightly older vehicle from an earlier year will very frequently gain a "value" advantage over a new vehicle regardless of the comparable MSRP's. By that reasoning, it seems quite possible that the '05 Odyssey will at some point in the future regain some value advantage over the '05 Sienna.
'Older' vehicle? I was talking about a brand new '04 Sienna, and they are virtually unchanged for 2005. Even with Toyota's price increase for the new model year, there is by no means a canyon of price difference between the Ody and the Sienna, comparably equipped.
When you're comparing 'value,' street prices that you can get today are what should be used for comparison. If one prefers the Odyssey, then great. But I don't buy the argument that there's a huge price/features disparity.
That's fine. I concede the point that when one compares a brand new '05 vehicle likely selling at MSRP to a similar competing vehicle from the '04 year that has a negotiated price, the latter vehicle may have a value advantage...at least until the '05 vehicle begins selling at comparable discounts. And what I actually said was "slightly older vehicle."
I understand. But I believe discounts on '05 Sienna will be available almost immediately. So the comparison--and my point about the Honda really NOT being a hugely better value--is valid.
I'm glad that I took the plunge for yesterday's technology in the '04 Ody. That increased amount on MSRP really surprised me, especially after all the unofficial accounts coming out.
I wouldn't bet on getting anything lower the MSRP on the new Ody at the beginning unless Honda has overestimated the demand (which it rarely does). Simply too many people out there will want these new ones. Even at full MSRP, it's price comparable to the similarly equipped Sienna at current pricing. I just don't forsee too many MSRP+ pricing out there, which is good.
The thing is, Honda hurts itself on the backend of jacking the MSRP so much higher in the residual value of the vehicles. Unlike Toyota where the MSRP is low, but option packages raise the values, most Hondas are flat, thus anything selling below MSRP will affect the residual values numbers. I think they're loooking more American style pricing on this now. Heck, who knows, maybe rebates are comin by year's end (j/k).
I would seriously consider shopping for a lease with some company stating a high residual value and low money factor. I wouldn't be surprised if at three years you'll find yourself ahead of the game because the companies overestimated the RV of the new Odys vs the comparable historial high RV of the '00-'04 Odys where the leasing companies made a killing on higher than anticipated RVs.
It -is- a valid point as established at a particular point in time, but it doesn't have much to do with an assessment of the relative values of the two vehicles in a vacuum since the target is continually moving. Your point actually reflects one of the reasons why some felt that the '04 Odyssey was a better "value" than the '04 Sienna at a particular point in time or why some may feel that a discounted '05 Odyssey in six-nine months may be a better value than a new '05 Sienna or even a slightly older '04 Sienna. We just -happen- to be at a spot--right after the introduction of the Odyssey--where the equation may favor the Sienna for those who are focused on "value" for reasons having more to do with timing than an assessment of the vehicles. I assume most early adopters who buy at or around MSRP are aware that they are sacrificing some relative value in return for early access to the vehicle but it doesn't mean that the car may not be a better long run value--then again, it may not be.
$38,500 before taxes should be for both NAVI and RES. Check this:
Touring base $35,010 RES : $1,500 NAVI: $2,000 ----------------- $38,510
makes sense this way. I went thru many dealerships in NJ area, and they only had either just base Touring or Touring RES&NAV coming in. I did not see Touring with NAV OR Touring with RES only...
It did make sense - I thought, ok, this is at the upper end of what the speculation has been and we were going to go for it. But then he tells me it doesn't include RES, only NAVI. I thought he HAD to be wrong, but really, after the circular conversations I'd been having with him via the manager, plus the trade in issue, I just decided to let it go. He also told me he'd call "in a couple hours," and he never did.
Oh, the $38,544 included $795 for dealer prep and $239 spash guards.
Oh well, dealer in OH called and told me I can have the exact one I want (ocean mist) late nov/early dec.
BUT, dh just mentioned a few mins ago that he now thinks I should get the Lexus. I'm laughing because he's the one who's been psyched about the new Ody.
You are getting royally screwed there, period ! There is no such thing as "dealer prep fee", and the splash guards retail @ $99, plus they take 20mins (tops) to install - I did mines for 20mins on 01Ody. So you figure another $30 to have them installed.
"While pricing hasn't been set to the penny, Honda plausibly claims it has added an average of $3,000 worth of features to 2005 models, yet will keep prices roughly in line with the '04s.
That means a base LX model starting at approximately $25,000, an EX out the door for under $30,000 and the new high-end Touring edition from about $34,000, maintaining Honda's high-value reputation."
I'm in Central Atlantic Toyota region. They don't shove Toyoguard down your throat like Southeast and Gulf States-- and like every Honda dealer in America seems to do with 'prep' and 'flaps.'
No Honda dealer here that I have dealt with adds any package. Honda dealers aren't great around here but eons better than the Toyota dealers.
Toyota packaging reminds me of Ford and GM in the 70's and 80's. 300 options and 20 packages. No package gives me exactly what I want. If you want a certain option, it is either not on any cars actually built, or you have to get a bunch of other junk you don't want. Thanks but no thanks.
I seriously doubt that the marketing people at Toyota sit around and think up ways not go give you exactly what you want. No question there are a myriad of option packages available on Toyotas, though I understand Sienna options will be simplified for 2005 models.
My experience with Honda dealers is that they ALWAYS tack onto a hot model worthless garbage like 'prep,' mudguards, stripe, vin etching, etc. Certainly, some Toyota distrubtion regions are guilty of this as well. But Honda has it down to an artform, to the point that it is psychological warfare: (Scenario 1): Customer feels good about not paying more than MSRP on a hot '05 Ody, even though this junk makes the vehicle actually cost MORE than MSRP. Or (Scenario 2) customer feels good about his Accord when dealer 'throws' this stuff in during final negotiations, even though it's worthless. No doubt there is $780 of profit in $795 of 'prep.'
I distinctly remember the sticker on the Toyota Siennas I saw recently and they all had the Toyoguard and it was about $700 then they had the undercoating and other stuff like window etching and all in all they added up to almost $1K. This was on all the Siennas I saw on one lot. The Honda dealerships did not have this. I hate when they steal money from people by adding things like that then make you pay for it because it is already there and you have no choice to buy one without it. IMO Toyota dealerships (around here) are a bunch of thieves.
I guess I was right about the pricing of the new Hondas. It makes my choice to purchase my Quest all the more solid in my mind. I know some of you dont agree with that, but I am not sure that the cloud of love for Honda and Toyota has cleared in your minds yet. I refuse to pay upwards of $40k for a van, and it will be impossible with those two at this time because people will blindly pay it just because that is their determined amount and they control if they come down or not. I for one am glad I did not set myself up for the disappointment of not being able to get the van I really wanted.
Perhaps, if you're going to keep it until it dies. But re-sale (on a percentage basis) after 3-4 years will be considerably less than Honda or Toyota. Again, this is not a concern if you drive your vehicles into the ground.
There are some good dealers out there...I just bought a Civic from the same dealer I am planning on buying an 05 Ody from. I was specific what I wanted, so he found the car at another dealer and brought it in. When it arrived, it had pin stiping on it...when I said I didn't want it, he told me the previous dealer had put it on, but he took the car in the back and had the pinstripes removed. No charges, no questions. Some dealers might have said "Sorry, thats the way it came, $99 please".
It was a black Civic with a white pinstripe...kinda took something away from the car. I have never been a pinstripe fan... He took it off on my request.
I just returned from inspecting my 05 ODY EXL-RES and I must say....Toyota look out. This van is absolutley incredible! I have look at just about every image on the net of the 05 and let me tell you, none of which do justice for this van. The new ODY design makes the Sienna look like a Caravan! The MSRP on it $32,145 which includes $515 destination charge. The Touring on the lot is at $35,450 which does not include RES or NAVI. I will have it in my posession tomorrow afternoon. BTW, my dealership received 4, all of which were already sold prior to hitting the lot.
I do plan on keeping it for about 10 years or so. Regardless of how well a particular car holds its value, cars are always lousy investments and quite frankly I choose to spend my money more wisely than that. My last car I kept for 8 years and it was still in pristine condition when I gave it away last month. The new owner is in love with it and is taking just as good care of it as I did. Also it was voted most reliable car in its class and held crappy resale value, so go figure. I say dont believe the hype. There are lots of people here that have posted that their Ody did not hold the kind of resale value that most people claim it should. I think there are just more people out there who would rather spend a little extra and get a new vehicle with the updates and warranty.
Add $1600 to your purchase price, and you should see a $2500 price difference between EX-L and XLE/AWD. A typical AWD addition costs $2000. There-in lies the value part!
The dealer just called me a few moments ago saying our Touring Edition, no NAV/RES, is being prepped and will be available tomorrow morning. MSRP is $35k (and some change), they will be adding $2k to the price of every Odyssey regardless of model and options. The 2k "added market value" is for people walking in off the street. Since we've bought 4 new Honda's from them over the years, he expects the sales manager will "allow" us to have at at MSRP. The EX-L w/ RES+NAVI is in the 32k range as others have posted, we may end up going that route if the TE isn't worth the extra money. The salesguy assures me the TE will "blow us away" <g>. Will report back tomorrow...
Decided not to put any deposits down for '05 Odyssey because a local dealership said they would definitely have a dedicated test driver--even a Touring w/Nav/Res. I hope that the salesman's statement proves true. In the meantime, I'm just doing more research about the Sienna and Ody while I wait for 9/22 to get here. My new thing to worry about is the PAINT on Toyotas. I have found posts on various websites, not just Edmunds, just full of people despairing about orange peeling and other Toyota paint problems. This has me very worried because I am still seriously considering the Sienna Ltd vs. the Ody Touring. Anybody with any words of wisdom about the bad Toyota paint stories out there? There sure are a lot of them on the internet!
I to am debating a 05 HO/T or TS/L first I heard of paint issues. Glad to know about it. I will be deciding next week for either van. Leaning towards HO as of today. Glad I waited to buy the Sienna now that the HO is looking so good.
Above is the address of the site that listed the multiple Toyo paint problems going back to the late 90's. If you use Edmund's search feature within the Sienna forum or any Toyota forum you'll see lots of similar posts. Just type in "paint" in the search window within any Toyota forum. Other makes have people complaining of problematic paint jobs, but, it just looks like the Toyota paint thing is a fairly big deal. I don't want it to be a big deal because I like having any least two or three vehicles within a class that I am willing to buy--even though deciding is hard, it creates a sense of freedom from coercion. I hope that Honda post about adding thousands to MSRP isn't true. I WON'T pay over MSRP and am even getting close to thinking that if Gulf States wants in the low 40's for a loaded Sienna, I might as well start looking at true luxury vehicles since I'm getting close to that price range! So, any paint experts please speak up! We want the real paint story on Toyota. I might not get to reply for awhile due to being super busy this weekend, but I will be "hovering" for answers. Thanks!
My salesguy told is they are marking them up but that's a decision for the dealer, Honda corporate doesn't dictate this afaik. So it's going to depend on the dealer and the market - high demand and low supply means they'll charge more. As market equilibrium gets established, prices generally go down.
We will also not pay over MSRP but my guess based on prior experiences with Honda's is that you'll have to wait for a bit to get at MSRP in many markets. Like I mentioned in the post earlier today, this will be our 5th new Honda from this dealer in the last 14 years, from the same sales manager, so we're expecting MSRP and no more.
Why should I 'add $1600' to my purchase price? I was comparing 'street' prices. I am assuming one can still get the Sienna deal I did, and the Ody will be MSRP--which puts them about $800 apart.
My belly is aching from laughing so hard. So your dealer wants (from everyone else, of course) $37K for a Touring with no NAV or RES? There is certainly NO value there. Anyone who pays this dealer $2K over MSRP and doesn't at least go look at a Sienna is stupid. Glad this dealer is doing you a 'favor' at MSRP.
If you’re comparing Sienna without RES to Odyssey EX-L, why are you adding RES to it? To be fair, either have the option on both, or on neither! That said, the value aspect becomes far more interesting when you throw in the “current street price” as a point. Odyssey isn’t here yet, and we’re talking MSRP. And I assume, the price you quote is below MSRP for the Sienna. And if the Odyssey still ends up being cheaper… you get the point. Don’t you? ;-)
during the year 2004 , according to alg (automotive lease guide?), the residual for the 6 year old Odyssey was higher than the newly designed Sienna. I would expect it to stay that way with the 2005s.
Comments
I felt the same way in '98 while paying $22.6k for my minivan (to replace the '89 one I paid $13k for).
My first house cost $19k.... times change :-)
Steve, Host
When you're comparing 'value,' street prices that you can get today are what should be used for comparison. If one prefers the Odyssey, then great. But I don't buy the argument that there's a huge price/features disparity.
I wouldn't bet on getting anything lower the MSRP on the new Ody at the beginning unless Honda has overestimated the demand (which it rarely does). Simply too many people out there will want these new ones. Even at full MSRP, it's price comparable to the similarly equipped Sienna at current pricing. I just don't forsee too many MSRP+ pricing out there, which is good.
The thing is, Honda hurts itself on the backend of jacking the MSRP so much higher in the residual value of the vehicles. Unlike Toyota where the MSRP is low, but option packages raise the values, most Hondas are flat, thus anything selling below MSRP will affect the residual values numbers. I think they're loooking more American style pricing on this now. Heck, who knows, maybe rebates are comin by year's end (j/k).
I would seriously consider shopping for a lease with some company stating a high residual value and low money factor. I wouldn't be surprised if at three years you'll find yourself ahead of the game because the companies overestimated the RV of the new Odys vs the comparable historial high RV of the '00-'04 Odys where the leasing companies made a killing on higher than anticipated RVs.
Touring base $35,010
RES : $1,500
NAVI: $2,000
-----------------
$38,510
makes sense this way. I went thru many dealerships in NJ area, and they only had either just base Touring or Touring RES&NAV coming in. I did not see Touring with NAV OR Touring with RES only...
Wonder if they will have Odyssey DX?
Oh, the $38,544 included $795 for dealer prep and $239 spash guards.
Oh well, dealer in OH called and told me I can have the exact one I want (ocean mist) late nov/early dec.
BUT, dh just mentioned a few mins ago that he now thinks I should get the Lexus. I'm laughing because he's the one who's been psyched about the new Ody.
Thieves, these Honda dealers.......
That means a base LX model starting at approximately $25,000, an EX out the door for under $30,000 and the new high-end Touring edition from about $34,000, maintaining Honda's high-value reputation."
http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/19/pf/autos/odyssey/index.htm?cnn=ye- s
Toyota packaging reminds me of Ford and GM in the 70's and 80's. 300 options and 20 packages. No package gives me exactly what I want. If you want a certain option, it is either not on any cars actually built, or you have to get a bunch of other junk you don't want. Thanks but no thanks.
My experience with Honda dealers is that they ALWAYS tack onto a hot model worthless garbage like 'prep,' mudguards, stripe, vin etching, etc. Certainly, some Toyota distrubtion regions are guilty of this as well. But Honda has it down to an artform, to the point that it is psychological warfare: (Scenario 1): Customer feels good about not paying more than MSRP on a hot '05 Ody, even though this junk makes the vehicle actually cost MORE than MSRP. Or (Scenario 2) customer feels good about his Accord when dealer 'throws' this stuff in during final negotiations, even though it's worthless. No doubt there is $780 of profit in $795 of 'prep.'
I guess I was right about the pricing of the new Hondas. It makes my choice to purchase my Quest all the more solid in my mind. I know some of you dont agree with that, but I am not sure that the cloud of love for Honda and Toyota has cleared in your minds yet. I refuse to pay upwards of $40k for a van, and it will be impossible with those two at this time because people will blindly pay it just because that is their determined amount and they control if they come down or not. I for one am glad I did not set myself up for the disappointment of not being able to get the van I really wanted.
He took it off on my request.
The fix is to click on Recent Messages or go elsewhere in Town Hall and return.
Steve, Host
I'm going to miss my Lexus GS430 snif-snif.
Above is the address of the site that listed the multiple Toyo paint problems going back to the late 90's. If you use Edmund's search feature within the Sienna forum or any Toyota forum you'll see lots of similar posts. Just type in "paint" in the search window within any Toyota forum. Other makes have people complaining of problematic paint jobs, but, it just looks like the Toyota paint thing is a fairly big deal. I don't want it to be a big deal because I like having any least two or three vehicles within a class that I am willing to buy--even though deciding is hard, it creates a sense of freedom from coercion.
I hope that Honda post about adding thousands to MSRP isn't true. I WON'T pay over MSRP and am even getting close to thinking that if Gulf States wants in the low 40's for a loaded Sienna, I might as well start looking at true luxury vehicles since I'm getting close to that price range!
So, any paint experts please speak up! We want the real paint story on Toyota.
I might not get to reply for awhile due to being super busy this weekend, but I will be "hovering" for answers. Thanks!
We will also not pay over MSRP but my guess based on prior experiences with Honda's is that you'll have to wait for a bit to get at MSRP in many markets. Like I mentioned in the post earlier today, this will be our 5th new Honda from this dealer in the last 14 years, from the same sales manager, so we're expecting MSRP and no more.