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Considering that the Yaris is a brand-new design for 2006, and the Fit originally debuted in the summer of 2001, wouldn't you say the 1 or 2 mpg increase in 5 years is the disappointing part?
When you do a good job equipping a car with things like side airbags, side-curtain airbags, and ABS standard, it does tend to add some weight, which affects fuel economy. The same can't be said for the Yaris. Also, despite the fact that some people like the complete base models that have no standard features, those rarely sell well. In fact the middle of the range models always sell the best.
Amazing. People complain there is no moonroof. Then they complain if there is, because it reduces headroom, adds weight, etc.
The city mileage for both Fit and Yaris are solid. The highway mileage should be 41-45 for both. Add a gear or change the ratio for 5th on the manual transmission. I drive more than 50% of the time on the highway, and a 4000 rpm continuous drone is not necessary for cars with these horsepower ratings and curb weights.
Bingo on the moonroof. I don't want one, and don't want to be forced to get one. I have no problem with one as an option, but it should not be standard on any model in this class.
The old Echos were around in ones and two in base form, with only P/S and in some cases A/C added in, which is the way this car makes sense.
But most of the Echos on dealer lots were fully loaded, which put their price above a similarly equipped Corolla, which is why no-one ever bought them. Duh, Toyota!
If they could just get away from large packages - make the packages smaller and more sensible - they would sell more cars, I am sure. Power optionas are locks, mirrors, and windows, no need to throw in 17 kinds of special trim and perhaps an outside temp gauge, whatever else you can think of. Perhaps keyless entry to go with the power locks, but since that can always be added by a dealer to a car with power locks, it is no big deal either way.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually, the base Fit isn't stripped at all. Side airbags, Side-curtain airbags, ABS, A/C, CD, power everything...all standard. The Sport just adds the extravagant touches like paddle shifters on the AT, alloys, body cladding, wing spoiler, etc.
I wish Toyota would dump their stupid package system. It totally turns me off on a car when I see no or very limited standard features, and then I have to go buy packages to get anything. The worst is when you need to buy a package to get another package like the power windows/locks/mirrors. The Fit is going to lead because they offer everything standard.
Tell me, because I might be reading Toyota's website wrong, but does one really need to get the "Convenience" package just to get a radio on the Yaris?
I think the Fit and Yaris are going to be pretty close similarly equipped. The $15k for the Fit Sport doesn't include destination, which will take it up into the high $15k range. A Yaris S with Power Package and alloys will be about the same, maybe a little less actually. Also, some people simply won't want a 5-door car that resembles a wagon/minivan. Personally, I prefer a Honda over a Toyota but in this particular example, I'd go with the Yaris Liftback.
One of the reasons they offer packages is because they combine desirable features together. Just from what I've read, it's obvious that the Yaris starts out pretty stripped to keep the base price low and offer buyers who do want something basic an $11k car (A/C is standard, though). The price of a Yaris Liftback starts at $10,950 plus $630 for Convenience Package and $1290 for the Power Package for a total of $12,870- cheaper than basically ANY competitor. I have to commend Toyota for that, even beating out comparably equipped Korean rivals.
Honda does offer the Fit well equipped out of the box, no such thing as a stripped Fit and they are starting at "around" $13k which is only a few hundred bucks off from the Yaris. The greatest handicap of the Fit is that it is only a 5-door, no sedan option. For buyers who want a 5-door, it'll sell like hotcakes. I'm just afraid buyers who want a 3-door or 4-door won't take a look at it. That's where the Yaris comes in.
I am with everyone here who thinks Toyota's packages are nonsensical. They don't combine features that make sense together in a package, they just throw a whole load of stuff together and make it unavailable individually. This raises the cost of the car for the buyer, who will almost certainly pay for some things in that packag they wouldn't have otherwise had, while streamlining the production process for Toyota, and thereby increasing their profits.
I am a Toyota fan, and for the most part I will put up with this practice, but I do heartily wish it were different.
Honda is exactly the opposite: give the buyer NO options, sell each model equipped two or three ways max, and have a higher base price as a result.
And sorry, allfiredup, I was "thinking in Canadian" when I was talking about an LE. Yes, we get the base and the S. Another pet peeve of mine regarding Toyota: I would really like to see them offer an 'S' that was actually modified under the skin to be more sporty (suspension pieces for better handling, maybe some extra gear under the hood for a few extra hp), rather than just a cosmetic package.
The Yaris should be fun because of its low weight, but with the fairly low power, it would be nice if it could slice through corners to keep the momentum up! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I see your point about the Fit not being available in a sedan form. In the US, which is typically so hatchback-averse a sedan would have been beneficial. However, the Fit 4-door is really quite ugly. I am usually not a big fan of Toyota (the Yaris is the first Toyota I'm really paying attention to), but I would take the Yaris sedan over the Fit sedan any day. I have a feeling that the introduction of a Fit 4-door to compete with the Yaris sedan might be in the near future should the Fit 5-door take off. Since such a vehicle does already exist, it would be relatively easy to just bring to the US. Hopefully after a redesign though :P
I've also seen the 4-door Fit Sedan and I agree with you it's quite dorky looking. The upcoming Nissan Versa Sedan reminds me of the Fit Sedan. Neither are cars I would spend my money on. The hatchback design works very well for both. Actually, the hatch looks better on all these new subcompacts to me. I'm just afraid the American buying public won't be responsive to the hatch, but I could be wrong. Maybe this will be the turning point for us impractical Americans and our preference for "saloons", as the Brits would say.
For the record, I love hatches. I just bought a Mazda3 and picked the 5-door over the 4-door, just made more sense to me.
To get the "fold flat" rear seat in the hatchback you have to get the power package!
The power package gets you NEITHER side curtains or remote keyless entry. By the time you add the power package you mine as well move on to a different car, because for very little money you can step up to the "next level" so to speak. Add side curtains and remote keyless entry and the price is out of control IMO.
This car better at least have an engine immobilizer standard or I won't give it a second look.
Enhancing the overall Yaris driving appeal, impressive value-added optional equipment packages are available. Yaris options include a Convenience package that adds a AM/FM/CD with MP3 capability with audio mini-jack, a rear window defogger, 15-inch steel wheels with full wheel covers, 60/40 split fold down rear seat with fold-down center armrest and cup holder (Sedan only) and a rear wiper (Liftback only). This package is “conveniently” standard on the Sedan S grade.
With the Yaris Power package, drivers and passengers will enjoy power locks, windows and mirrors plus all the equipment in the convenience package. For the Sedan, it also includes a tachometer, upgraded trim with integrated audio, cruise control, and ABS. For the Liftback, it adds a 60/40-split rear seat that slides, reclines and folds completely flat.
Liftback Convenience Package M/T & A/T $ 630
Liftback Power Package** M/T & A/T $ 1,290
Sedan Convenience Package M/T & A/T $ 750
Sedan or Sedan S Power Package** M/T $ 1,710
Sedan or Sedan S Power Package** A/T $ 1,785
*Dealer margins for the above packages will be 10%
**Power package price above includes required 15” steel wheel upgrade (Accessory SV)
In addition to the packages listed above, the Yaris will also offer optional seat-mounted side and front and rear side curtain airbags, anti-lock brakes, 15” alloy wheels, rear spoiler, fog lamps, and keyless entry.
link title
Ah another car we can finally buy here from the GT series games...
Link is from Photomode, Yaris RS turbo...
The convenience package is actually not a bad deal on the hatchback: $630 to add the CD, rear wiper, rear defrost, and larger rims is OK. But it IS hard to believe that in this day and age an $11K car wouldn't have a rear defroster. Sheesh, how much can stuff like that cost? An extra $20 per unit? Raise the MSRP $40 and make it standard!
Of course the counterpoint to that is that in a car this small, if you use the front defrost (A/C-linked) and turn it up, it will clear the back glass pretty quickly too. I am talking quicker than a wire defroster on the glass would work. So maybe they make it optional because it is really not necessary.
I always boggle at some of the things they strip out of these lower-end cars in order to reduce their price.
Oh yeah, and at $1200+, the power package should include keyless entry. And why does a "power package" include items such as sliding and reclining rear seats? No power in use there. In fact, it is just a case of Toyota stuffing a desirable option like power windows with other less desirable stuff to make extra profits.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
The rear "hatch" is just the window.
It is essentially the same car as the Peugeot 107 and the Citroën C1, but with different sheetmetal. I know the Citroën is available with either 3 or 5 doors, but I'm not sure about the other two. From a TV program I watched on it some time ago, they mentioned the car was not up to Toyota's usual standards of quality.
Even the 1986 Yugo had a rear defroster as standard. The running joke at the time was that it was to keep your hands warm when you were pushing it. It's 2006 now, there's simply no excuse not to make a rear defogger standard even on one of the most inexpensive cars on the market. I think it's pretty clear the point is to force buyers to get the Convenience Package. Even though the Yaris is still a great value with the extra cost package, it is a principle issue. Toyota- add the dang defogger as standard!
I doubt we'll see any without the Convenience Package?
Think of the Yaris as a $12,100 hatch that has a standard defogger and rear wiper, standard CD, and standard 15" rims. I bet it will be next to impossible to find one without the convenience package.
Actually, viewed that way, it is still not a bad deal. I just hope it isn't impossible finding cars WITHOUT the power package.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I could be wrong, but I'd think there will be a lot without the Power Package. Even the Corolla is fairly easy to find without power windows and locks. If they're smart, they'll keep a good mix in stock. I wonder if the base or S 4-door will be most popular?
You'd think that the powers at Toyota would have learned from Scion that customers don't appreciate these games.
Aw well, I can dream :-)
So here is a good question for the forum.. or actually all forums.. which marketing method is preferable?
'Yota's some option packages.. or
Honda's no options at all?
There is a good reason for doing this btw, and it's not a surprise that it is in the two most reliable brands on the road.
The Japanese have taken the leadership in the SPC approach to manufacturing , especially in the auto industry. Dr. Deming's approach is measure each variable in a process and statistically track variances in order to identify weak areas. Then work on these weak areas by cranking down the tolerances progressively to eliminate the errors. The by product of this system is that they found that the best products with the closest tolerances and the least errors were produced on continuous processes. Every time you have to stop the process to change something the entire system has to be recalibrated and started all over again. Therefore try to make everyone exactly the same with no variation ( Honda's system ). But is that too rigid.
You're probably correct on this. Looking at the whole picture beginning with the Yaris the line now goes up in $1000 increments. Choice is good.
Basic Yaris
Convenience Yaris
Loaded Yaris
xA
CE Corolla
then $2000 increments
LE Corolla
S Corolla
S Corolla - Loaded
CE Camry
LE Camry
LE Camry - Loaded
etc etc.
There's a similar 'flow' if you will in the utility vehicles from the xB to the Matrix to the RAV to the Highlander, FJ, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Crusher.
There is a group(s) in 'Yota somewhere, I'm certain, that does nothing but analyze these relationships and frankly does it better than any other auto maker. I know from my daily experience that $800-1200 at the entry level vehicle is a big difference in a car buyers mind.
Obviously you can't have Camry's ranging from $12000 all the way up to $29000 so each little segment has to be unique as well.
Instead, they don't take orders, or at least resist them ENORMOUSLY, so you have to deal with these packages. Next, you have the dealers themselves, who are used to fairly juicy profits selling Toyota vehicles, and who don't EVER want to have stripped base models of lower-end cars on their lots. Not enough profit in it for them if they stock a base Yaris with no options, or just the convenience package.
So overall I like Toyota's system better than Honda's, but it would be even better to be somewhere in between - less packages and more individual options. If anything, it seems Toyota has been ramping up its use of packages as opposed to stand-alone options in the last decade or so.
And my prediction is that it will be next to impossible, or perhaps totally impossible, to find manual shift Yaris's at the base price, and very very difficult finding manual shift Yaris's with just the convenience package.
In that regard Honda is better: if they make a base model and a Sport, just two trims, you know it will always be easy to find both trims on dealer lots, and have a choice of colors when it is shopping time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sounds like the Scion model of doing business. It may be that way in the future
Instead, they don't take orders, or at least resist them ENORMOUSLY, so you have to deal with these packages. Next, you have the dealers themselves, who are used to fairly juicy profits selling Toyota vehicles, and who don't EVER want to have stripped base models of lower-end cars on their lots. Not enough profit in it for them if they stock a base Yaris with no options, or just the convenience package.
This must be a geographic market driven view. Well over 70% of Corollas and Camrys in our store are base models with no options at all. Hampton Roads is basically a Military compound where money is often very tight. 80% of our 4Runners are the Base 2WD @$29K.. ditto Highlanders and Sequoia's. There is no margin in these at the going transaction prices. Selling new vehicles is a convenience to Toyota in order for us to sell high quality Used Cars. Now there's a different slant.
Will the Yaris be sold as ECHO anywhere in the world?
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I think you must be right on this, from what you say in your post about your own stock. Last year when Corolla supplies were really tight (during the gas spike), the only one my dealer had in stock had a sticker of $20,5, and included moonroof, leather, and the most preposterous 1000-watt stereo system I had ever seen. Not to mention every doo-wip you could stuff in a Corolla.
Back when dealers actually stocked Echos, I would check periodically for a base model without A/C or P/S, never found one on local dealer lots. There were lots of $14K Echos with several packages, of course. You could get that equipment level in an Echo any time you wanted.
Of course, they haven't actually stocked Echos around here for about 18 months, even though they have technically still been for sale. I hope they do at least stock some Yaris's for the first couple of years, and that they order a few with less than a $15K sticker, but I won't hold my breath.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yaris Sedan "S"
Black exterior
All Options
Add 16 inch. wheels
spoiler.option
Possible sunroof.
I want the Camry, but since we had one in 2005 model LE. I actually like it, despite when I drove it, its too wide when making right or left turn. Though its fast car.
So far we've got Camry, Corolla, Avalon, "N" soon to be Yaris sedan... Mom.....Sister.. Dad.. me
Not if the result is a more dependable vehicle with long-term durability and value.
Personally, I dislike and do not want power windows, power mirrors and have absolutely no use for cruise, but if I had to have them in order to get a specific model and that car was better than its competition, then so be it.
I grew up with 70s American cars that could be ordered any which way and we ended up with unreliable junk with horrendous build quality.
Next, you have the dealers themselves, who are used to fairly juicy profits selling Toyota vehicles, and who don't EVER want to have stripped base models of lower-end cars on their lots. Not enough profit in it for them if they stock a base Yaris with no options, or just the convenience package.
I think there is a lot of truth to that; but it also applies to a lot of other dealers. I went nuts trying to find base model cars last year, whether import or domestic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
For some reason people in the US equate small with bad and undesireable. Of course in the US we do not have insane gas taxes, not to mention taxes on engine displacement and the length of the vehicles.
Maybe in America, but the car for $20 000 is in Europe, and no you won't upgrade to a larger car, because most likely you either A.) don't want a larger car, B.) don't want to pay a lot more for fuel, C.) scared by the registration tax.
Also, people don't necessarily like larger cars. There are many people all throughout the world who might see a $20 000 B-segment and then see a $18 000 C-segment and still go for the B-segment.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thanks.
In this context, the Fit begins to look better and better. Gets better mpg than the xA too, but not as good as the Yaris. More conventional looking than the funky-cute Yaris 3-door though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)