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Porsche 911

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  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    other question I had was about spacers on the back wheels of the c4 - the salesman pointed out the aesthetic value of the spacers bringing the wheels flush with the fender but I don't know if this affects the performance of the car.

    I had thought one of the selling points of the "4" vs. the "2" was a wider rear track (not just body) that would provide for better handling. If, in fact, the track is the same as the "2" and it's just the body that's wider, there would be no handling advantage (and it would look odd). The need for $500 spacers to bring the wheels out flush with the wider body would seem like an engineering afterthought.

    The base C4 does get the 11" wide rear wheels and 295 width tires (vs. the C2's 10" wide wheels and 265 width tires), so I would have thought that extra 2" of total wheel/tire width would offset the 1.7" wider body, but I'm probably missing something. Does the salesperson suggest that spacers would be needed even in the C4S with the 305 width tires?

    Searching through Porsche's website, I didn't find any specifications relative to track width, but I noticed something else: The "4" loses about 20-25% of the trunk volume compared to the "2" (and gains a slighly larger gas tank). Guess that's to accomodate the front wheel drive train. Hopefully, doesn't eliminate the ability to carry a decent sized piece of luggage under the bonnet.

    P.S. Don W. Congratulations! All good things come to those that wait! :)
  • Habitat1:

    1. Good catch on the cargo bay . . . recently disclosed detail. It's a change from small to "non-existant" . . . ugh.

    2. Re: track. I searched the website and found the following (under 911 Carrera 4/911 Carrera 4 Details/Chassis Concept):

    "The 911 Carrera’s wide, aggressive stance has been accentuated in the Carrera 4 models, with a widened rear track of .55 inch. (14 mm) on the Carrera 4 and 1.25 inch. (32 mm) on the Carrera 4S compared to their respective rear-wheel drive cousins. Higherperforming tires complement this wider wheel track to achieve a new level of all-wheel-drive performance."
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Boy, now I am even more confused.

    I just checked my "New 911" sales brochure. It lists the rear track of the 911 and 911 S (both "2"'s) as 60.39" and 59.69" respectively. How can the "S" track be 0.7" less than the base, given the wheels go from 10" to 11" and the tires go from 265 to 295? What is "track"? Isn't it the centerline of tire tread to centerline of tire tread?

    I suspect that Porsche made a mistake and transposed the figures. Wouldn't be the only mistake in their literature.

    But the figures you found on the web also seem a little out of sync. The C4 gets 11" wheels and 295 series (i.e. 30 mm wider) rear ties compared to the C2. Yet the track only increases 0.55". The C4S keeps the same 11" wheels, gets slightly wider 305 (vs. 295) series tires compared to the C2S. Yet the track supposedly increases 1.25", or over twice as much as on the base. Once again, seems like those figures should be reversed.

    Taken one step further, if the rear track of the C4 vs. the C2 has only increased .55", but the body width has increased approximately 1.7", that would suggest the wheels are inset more from the body and spacers would be required to get the "flush" look.

    I'm probably missing something in my simple math analysis. Perhaps when I go back to my dealer, I'll take a tape measure with me and crawl under a few cars in the showroom. Better yet, I'll have my 7 year old do it, since she's learning measurements in 2nd grade and is a lot more flexible than me.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 176,188
    They could be increasing the offset, so that the wheels sit closer in... so, even though they might be wider, they may not sit as far out in the wheel wells..

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • I think I have the answer--but this is just a flyer so take it with a grain of salt:

    1. C2/C2S Considerations. It makes sense that the C2S's track is smaller. The larger the wheels, the further "in"--towards the center of the car--the center of each wheel will be . . . i.e., you'd expect 1" total--0.5" for each side.

    2. C4/C4S Considerations.
    a. The body width of the car has increased by 1.7" (0.85"/side).
    b. C4 vs. C2. Since the C4 has 11" rear wheels vs. 10" for the C2, the 1.7" increase is netted agains the 1" width increase for ~0.7" increase . . . close to their stated 0.55"
    c. C4S vs. C2S. Since there is no increase in wheel width--only in rear body--I'd expect the increase in track to be close to that of the rear body. And, the increase in track is 1.25" vs. the 1.7"

    This may be totally wrong and may reveal my nearly complete lack of knowledge on the topic . . . but it does seem logical . . . .

    Thougths?
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Gentlemen:

    Would anyone who has changed their own oil on their 997 please list the torque settings, process, any any other recommendations they may have. I understand that there are 2 drain plugs, is this true? Also does the 997 use a cannister filter or a sleeve filter? Looking at the underside of my 2006 997 C2S, I can easily see a black oil filter and a drain plug that has a recessed hex fitting. If the hex fitting is the drain plug, oil chanes will be a snap. Filter and plug are very close. Another forum mentions that the 996 engine has 2 drain plugs, is the 997 engine similar?
    I prefer to change my own oil to be assured of having the job done correctly, also I will probably be changing the oil once every year or 5,000 miles. Anyone have a preference on oil viscosity? 0w40, 5W40 or 5W50. I live in SoCal. Temps never ( rarely ) go below 50 F. Thanks for he input

    Chromedome
  • car17car17 Posts: 2
    I am currently driving the Boxster, but am now considering the 911 C4 cabriolet for the all wheel drive feature. I am concerned however, with how it is going to handle in the snow or slushy weather? Does it really provide you with a significant level of traction to get around in bad weather, or is it still just a fair weather car? I'd love to hear from someone who has actually driven this car in the snow, slush or other bad weather.
  • car17car17 Posts: 2
    TRUE! and also, by pressing down on the crest, you won't put finger prints on the car!
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Hi Car17,
    I'll try. Clearance will be your biggest enemy as the 911 doesn't have a lot of ground clearance. I believe I've heard 4" of snow is about all it can deal with. I just got mine in November. I had it up on the Blue Ridge Parkway (western NC) the morning after they got some snow (4" or less I'd guess) but enough to make the roads slippery. The Porsche was amazingly sure-footed. I wasn't a cowboy but it went up and down some steep snow covered/packed snow to ice roads (not plowed/not salted) and always felt perfectly stable. Oh, it feels the same on dry or wet roads.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    So Don, how are the new wheels? Have you made it through the break-in yet??

    I've had my Cab 2S under cover since Monday's snow here in DC, so my odometer is stuck at 3,800.

    Hope your having fun. ;)
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Thanks for asking, I'm loving it! The thing IS on rails!
    No, I just have a little over 500 miles I'm ashamed to say but then My Murano had just 5,000 miles in the two years I owned it AND I now have two cars so it's going to be awhile until I reach 2,000 miles. Add to that I'm kind of hermity and you get the idea.
    My newest (photo) book, "The White Squirrels of North Carolina" arrived Thursday and I'm busy promoting it with (local) radio and newspaper interviews coming up tomorrow (Monday) and some book signings scheduled so that's pretty exciting.
    If you'd care to see it, go to:
    www.whitesquirrelart.com
    and scroll down to the "Photo Gift book".
    :)
    I don't sell directly so selling anything wasn't my intent.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Very nice book and cards, Don. What is the range of the white squirrels? I've never seen them in south-central Virginia or coastal North Carolina.

    Now as much as I am a fan of Seal Grey, I would have thought you might have gone for a White Cab with a "SQRLL" vaanity plate. ;)

    Keep enjoying your 911. Sounds like there will be a "break-in completed" party sometime this coming spring.
  • Hello All:
    I was wondering if anyone could recommend one of the two C2S or C4S. Im considering buying one, but did not know if the 4 is really worth the money. Could anyone shed some light on the topic? I dont live in snowy conditions; however, it does rain a lot here...

    Please let me know C4S vs. C2S

    Thanks!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You really need to try to test drive both yourself.

    The C4S will give you better traction in the rain, but weighs about 150 lbs more. The C4S is slightly wider in the rear, with marginally wider tires. Although that should give you better handling all around, I have heard an equal number of opinions as to which performs better on dry pavement. Meaning both are exceptional.

    I bought a new 2005 C2S Cab before the 2006 C4S was available, but if I were to revisit my purchase today I would try to test drive both. I suspect I'd probably still end up with a C2S, since I don't plan on driving in rainy conditions much, but I'd still give the C4S fair consideration.
  • Thanks for your input habitat1! I'll try to test drive both.

    If there are any other comments out there I'm willing to listen...
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Thanks habitat1. There are pockets of white squirrels across the country. Here's a website that lists some of the towns.
    http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/squirrels.html
    Ours are in a small geographical area in western NC that runs from Brevard to Hendersonville (if that makes any sense).
    I too thought of getting a white 911 but my Murano was white and although the Porsche looks nice in white, I wanted a change.
    My plate on my Honda Element is "WHT-SQRL".
    :)
    I may get "WYT-SQRL" for the P-car, still pondering.
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Hi Caneba, I'll give it a shot. I took delivery of an 06 C4 Cab on 11/12. I've always liked the security of AWD and have owned many vehicles with it (Subarus, Murano, etc.) so when Porsche advertised the new 2006 911 997 AWD (C4) I put my order in (8/26). I'd like to say that AWD gives better traction on ALL road surfaces. I think the "bottom line" is that the C2 is probably a little more fun to drive (it's lighter and you can throw it around more) while the C4 is perhaps slightly less fun to drive (my C4 is a lot of fun to drive to be honest) but probably has better traction, even coming out of a turn on a dry road. Habitat1 gave great advice, drive both if you can.
    TopGear, popular TV show not available here, just raced/tested the C2 and the C4. The C4 actually turned in 1/2 second faster track time but was "less fun" to drive.
    Motor Trend looked at the C4 and C4S here:
    http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0509_porsche_911_carrera/
    Hope this helps, go drive both.
  • Thanks for the input dweiser!

    From what I was reading in the article, I understand that the porsche doesn't come with a spare... is that correct? Or is that just the C4 that doesn't come with one?

    Thanks again!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    The 997 does not come with a spare tire. Instead, you get a can of flat fixer and a 12 volt pump.

    Which raises a question or three from me to other 997 owner's:

    (1) Anyone have a flat yet? If so, details on how the fix went.

    (2) Feelings of inadequacy?? The "tire goop" only works on relatively small holes in the tread area (i.e. nail). Forget anything larger (i.e. spike) or any sidewall damage. Which means the car is completely disabled. Not exactly a comfortable feeling driving 375 miles back and forth from our second home.

    (3) Anyone have any experience with Porsche Raodside Assistance, either with respect to a flat or other problem? I have heard anecdottally that they aren't very good.

    Over the last 20+ years prior to about 18 months ago, I had one flat tire. But, in the past 18 months, my wife had 1 flat on our former Trooper, 2 on our MDX (including one unrepairable sidewall puncture) and I have had 2 on my Acura TL. I never had one on my S2000, but even as tiny as it was, it had a compact spare that you could at least limp home on.

    This is one area that, given my recent bad luck, I am not sure the 997 isn't a risky step backwards over the 996. I understand that many high performance exotic cars make limited or no provisions for a flat tire. But my 7 year old describes our 911 as a "family car". She's probably logged more miles in the back seat in 3 months than the average Ferrari DRIVER puts on in a year. So planning for the possibility of a flat tire seems prudent.

    Comments, experiences and suggestions appreciated.
  • I guess Porsche thought we would have no place to put the big old flat tire anyway so why give us a donut size spare.

    I'm actually thinking about buying one of those plug kits and a jack just in case.
  • One option may be to check if there are "Run Flat" tires available for the C2 / C4
  • i would count Porsche road side [non-permissible content removed].
    i've been driving for 10+ years, never had flat tire. (knock on woods :)
  • I just purchased a used, if you consider 500 miles used, 05 c2s cab, triple black with carrera S wheels. I'm thinking of purchasing the sport design wheels. Does anyone have any input on where I should look? My car is being trucked from LA to New York. January 3rd it arrives - I can't wait! Thanks!!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You might want to do a Google search on "Porsche Wheels" and follow the links. There are a number of places that sell wheels - new and used - at a discount. Which means they are still extremely expensive. :(

    I have a C2S Cab with the Carerra S wheels. If I were ordering, I'd specify the Carerra Classic 5 spoke wheels. I spend almost as much time cleaning the wheels as washing and drying the entire rest of the car.

    Just curious as to what kind of deal you got? Did you go out to see / test drive the car before buying? Is it a dealer demo or private party?

    Not that I'm unhappy with mine, but if I could get a good price, I might consider going for an 06 in Speed Yellow instead of Seal Grey. :)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I hear Wheelenhancement.com mentioned often.
  • I say go for it!

    Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Definitely cool! I'll take mine with Sand interior. In general I think people shy away from ordering yellow, but I believe it moves quite well when they are in stock, and so do the used ones. Of course this is just a feeling I have, no supporting data. It seems everytime I see yellow P-cars in and around the showrooms, they are not there too long.
  • I think a lot of people would shy away from ordering one but once they've seen it in person (showroom) it is hard to resist. I have/had way too many dark colors car and I do think a Cab needs to be in a bright color.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    That's MY car sitting in your driveway. :cry::cry:

    If you ever get tired of it and don't contact me first, I'll hunt you down. ;)

    Very nice.
  • Just got my C2S about three weeks ago, and one of the first things I did was get a tire plug kit and a jack just in case the fix-a-flat doesn't work.

    Even if it had a donut spare, it might be easier to just plug the tire (assuming you can find where the leak is coming from). I also make sure I have a working flashlight in the car too.

    You're prolly also right ttt, there wouldn't be any room for the big old flat tire to be put anyway.

    Piscean
  • Thanks. I love the car just wish I have more time to drive it as I need to take two kids to daycare everyday.
  • My 997 Carrera S (19 inch wheels) suffered a road hazard side wall slice at only 500 miles. Tire was a total loss but worse was the aggravation of having no spare tire. On board repair kit was useless for this type of damage. Needless to say my confidence in going on long trips has been diminished. Maybe Porsche will go to a run flat. Also check PCA site, Tech Section, 997, Wheels and Tires for more input.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Sorry about your misfortune. But would a run flat tire work have helped your side wall slice? And what did you do? Call Porsche roadside assistance and have the car towed to a dealer for a tire replacement, I assume?

    Regarding run flats, I have heard and read mosty bad things about how they handle and ride. Has anyone investigated or tried them on a 911??
  • You were right on the mark about the tow to the dealer but I got to thinking. Had it happened on a weekend with the dealership closed, I would have been up the creek.

    RE:run flats: you raise a good question. I've heard the same about harsher ride. Maybe Porsche will come up with an answer. I sent same question to PCA "Tech Section."
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Hi,
    It was on a BMW (sorry, didn't catch which model) at a track in England. Lead guy (don't know his name but he snickers a lot especially when he's going fast, LOVES Porsches) ran the track with tires in-tact then his assistant drilled a hole in each sidewall. His lap time was slower BUT he drove the Bimmer at speeds up to 100 m.p.h. and was frankly amazed that the tires not only handled well but stayed on the rims!
    I just tried to find the URL for the show but couldn't.
    I'd REALLY like it if anyone here found any info on run flat tires for the Porsche 911.
  • tried both in 996 guise the 4 seemed a lot heavier and glad to give it back after weekend test our local roads tight and twisty (or maybe that is the roads i look for) just purchased 997s perfect i would suggest save your money, get options on adaptive seats sports wheels chrono and bose

    ps you will need the extra cash for the botox injections to erase the smile lines that you will develop
  • i have had flat in rear tyre on way to airport in a 996 if you have any gear in car or heaven forbid a passenger there is NOWHERE to put the offending tyre when replaced with the skinny.

    think that the new option of no spare is actually quite sensible option as long as the 'get you to help' pack functions as designed

    resolution for me was to flag a car down, trust the guy to keep rim in his garage and promise some good australian shiraz as a thank you on return . . great guy even had flat repaired!!!!
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Things change liamnz. What you knew to be correct about the 996 models is now out of date and incorrect about the 997s. Totally different vehicles. Many problems of "heaviness" with the 996 AWD (4) model completely done away with in the 997s. I say, good advice to caneba is go drive each!
  • nyc4snyc4s Posts: 5
    I own the new 997 c4s, and it is incredible. You can drive it as hard as you want, and it will not slide. So far I have not seen any others on the road yet in NY.
  • pisceanpiscean Posts: 13
    You were right on the mark about the tow to the dealer but I got to thinking. Had it happened on a weekend with the dealership closed, I would have been up the creek.

    Because of the weekend thing with the dealership service dept. being closed (especially for a Sunday), it might not be a bad idea to also belong to an auto club too.

    I have AAA, for example. So if worst comes to worst, if the tire is not repairable and I'm not too far from houme, they could always put the car on a flat-bed and drive it (and me) back home until Porsche reopens.

    Of course you're day might be ruined, but getting a flat tire tends to put a damper on having fun no matter what kind of car you drive.

    Piscean
  • ds2k1ds2k1 Posts: 101
    Looking to lease a C2S with little $$ down for 3 years/54k miles. Does anyone know what Porsche finance offers, or have any tips for finding the best deal? Absent that, anyone willing to share terms of their deal?

    Thanks for the help. Until then, I'll be over here like a mental case obsessing on the Carrera S.
  • 997tip997tip Posts: 3
    I've got both AAA and Porsche Roadside, but you are right about putting a damper on the day. Over time my mindset has adapted to having only 4 tires and roadside service as backup.

    997Tip
  • I have 2050 on my C2S Cab, and I can not believe how well this car holds as I push her very hard in the Sierra Nevada's in Lake Tahoe. I too wanted the very cool C4S Cab. I was told by the dealer not to go for the 4. They where correct. I have heard the tires make some noise while pushing to the limit, but I can not make the rear end slide! This car is lighter/faster than 4 so save your money unless you need to see the "4" on the back end. So take that form a former A8 Quattro owner.
  • You must have purchased your car from Bill Pearce Motors, home of Porsche, BMW, Volvo and Oldsmobile or something, in Reno NV? Took them a week to fax over a purchase order to my bank, while they told me I had to use their higher interest loan if I did not produce my check in 72 hours.

    First visit, entrusted my new car with 300 miles to my dealership for a plastic bra package. Three days later I return to see that my car had not been moved from the exact spot I had left it, outside awaiting new door dings or to be stolen. They said there was a scratch on the hood and did not want to touch the car. So they left the car outdoors. In less than 30 seconds, a rag with a little compound removed the mild abrasion on the clear coat. I paid $5,000 more for this car in Reno so I could have her severviced near to home. Oakland,CA Porsche offered 5K less for the same car to win the deal. My loyalty did not pay off. How can I ever entrust my car to this dealership again? I was loyal and the payoff was getting pissed off about the whole experience. I let JDP know how I felt, but their questions are delivedred mechanically with no human attached; very lame, with little room for dialog. So Porsche is the loser here. I know I would have received better service from GM.
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Now, if anything happens, I can be towed to my house (AAA) or to the closest Porsche dealer (Roadside Assistance).
    Thanks for the good advice.
  • it's the dealer, not PCNA.
    write a letter to PCNA, better than JDP.
    all porsche dealerships i used are good so far. :D
  • liamnzliamnz Posts: 3
    Did not try the 4 in 997 spec, had to factor in that there are more bits to go wrong and extra cost.

    Absolutely agree to try both types but surprisingly different cars in "feel" in 996 form. Would be surprised if that did not rollover to some degree however if the 996-997 evolution is as complete as it seems it will certainly be less.

    My only gripe with the 997s is that if ever a car would compliment a comprehensive head up display it is this. Has to be in the Stuttgart "to do" list
  • tkidstkids Posts: 1
    I can't say what I would like here. Censorship. However, I had a terrible experience with this dealership, the one in Reno. Purchased a Volvo in 02. Promised myself never to buy from them again. Just for the heck of it I thought I would check on a C4 Porsche. Just inquired about ordering. Basically I was told "Good Luck". Next day placed an order with another dealership. "Loyalty"?? Why even try :confuse:
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I probably won't go through with this - but I am considering selling my 2005 Seal Gray Cab S and buying a 2006 Cab 2S or 4S in Speed Yellow. I have a "magic number" in mind that if I can do it for less, I may go for it.

    My sales manager (former Porsche factory marketing exec and accomplished factory test driver) surprised me with his analysis of the C2S vs. C4S:

    The "4" loses approximately 30 horsepower to the wheels due to drivetrain loss compared with the "2". Apparantly, even though under normal conditions the C4 is sending 95% power to the rear wheels, "the drive train mechanicals are not as horsepower efficient as the simpler, direct C2".

    Add the extra 200+/- lbs for the "4" and the C4S will not feel as quick as a C2 Base. And considerably slower off the line than the C2S.

    This is not to say that the C4S is a slow poke. But, my sales manager warned me, because I now have a C2S, I will notice a fairly big difference. Unfortunately, he does not have any broken in C4S Cab for me to test drive. I also have the sport chrono and sport exhaust, which "officially" do not add any horsepower, but together make the car feel quicker. For the 2006, I would order the $920 sport chrono, but not the $2,500 sport exhaust.

    In fairness, he agreed that the C4 does improve handling and stability on wet winding roads. But on dry winding roads, it practically takes a race driver to push the car hard enough to start transferring more power to the fronts.

    His conclusion was that if I go for the C4S Cab, I will immediately notice the relative differnece in apparant power and added weight the moment I take the car off the lot, but I may never test the handling advantage if I don't drive like Mario Andretti in the rain.

    Thoughts / comments?
  • dweiserdweiser Posts: 288
    Hi Habitat1,
    If I were you, I'd make myself find one of each to drive. If you're in or near a metropolitan area, it shouldn't be that hard to find both. They'd probably both be new and not broken in but you should still be able to get some idea from the two test drives. Would help a lot if they were at the same dealer, back to back drives. Also, what's the weather like where you live; that could be a factor.
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