Porsche 911



  • stephenkngstephenkng Member Posts: 4
    Does anyone know anything about the 2006 997 warranty. Does the factory offer extanded warranty. I was told they only offer for leased car only. Any comments??
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I just picked up a new 2005 997 last night. The standard warranty is 4yrs/50k miles. The dealer offered an extended warranty through an "approved" third party - 7/70 for $3,400 +/-. He indicated that Porsche does not offer an extended warranty directly themselves. I have some time to decide on the extended warranty, but I am inclined to pass unless the price drops (a possibility, I think).

    He also offered a paintless dent removal, scratch removeal and aluminum wheel repair policy to cover all those "ouches" for 3,4 and 5 years at $499, $599, and $699 respectively. My 16 month old Acura TL already has one ding and two curb scraped wheels that would cost me $300 +/- to have reapired. So the Porsche offering is tempting. Any thoughts from others??
  • stephenkngstephenkng Member Posts: 4
    Thanks for your reply. How do you like your 997. Howver, I am really concern about the RMS leak on the 996/997. I was also offer an "after market" extended warranty for around $3700 for 7yr/100000 miles. Any thourhgts.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    According to my dealer (general sales manager), the RMS leak was fixed for the 997 - in fact, he indicated it was fixed for the last two years of the 996. He has been with Porsche for 15+ years and visits their factory / headquarters frequently. He has been spot on with respect to my other questions, so unless someone else has factual evidence to the contrary, I'll tend to believe him on the RMS issue.

    I haven't reached a conclusion on the extended warranty yet. Your price for 7/100 is a better deal than mine for 7/70. I only wish it was coming from Porsche and not some third party, albeit a reputable and highly recommended one in my case.
  • stephenkngstephenkng Member Posts: 4
    habitat1, thanks for your insight. I can't agree more it will be much better if the extended warranty is coming from Porsche.
  • stomp32stomp32 Member Posts: 38
    Congratulations! I know you've been torn between the Boxster S and the 997, but I think you made the right choice. If you'd chosen the Boxster, you probably would have second guessed yourself for a long time. And hey, it's just another thirty or forty grand, right?

    So how did it feel when you drove it home? Got the grin off your face yet?

    By the way, are you considering getting the clear bra for your baby?

    Get used to walking - most new P cars get parked at the far end of the parking lot to avoid all the nasty dings.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    I think I paid under $1800 for the extended warranty of 7/70,000. Well actually it is 3 years/ 20,000 on top of the Porsche's warranty as the warranty period starts now. Anyway, I figured I won't be driving the car too much so I went for years but not mileage.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Thanks for the congratulations. You pegged the difference about right, I got a pretty good discount on the 911 (since it was an in-stock 2005, with 2006's arriving), bringing the difference down to a mere $35k over the Boxster S. And I'm guessing it will be a couple of weeks before I can drive it without a grin. And although I still think the Boxster S is a great car that handles to near perfection, I'm glad I got a "family car" that can hold my daughters in the back seat (for now).

    Haven't considered the clear bra and it wasn't discussed by the dealer. I'm to get back to the them on a 3-5 year ding/scratch/wheel repair plan. Please give me your thoughts on the clear bra.
  • bsumnerbsumner Member Posts: 39
    I have a clearbra on my X5 and SC430 . . . although you can slightly see it, etc., its benefits are:

    1. It does stop rock chips (and corresponding broken hearts); and
    2. It is much better to get it when the car is new/close to new . . . so dirt, etc. isn't sealed beneath it.

    I've seen a lot of 911s with them on the front of the rear fenders . . . since they also are in the line of sight for rocks . . .

    I'm having one put on my 997 before I take delivery.

  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    According to my dealer (general sales manager), the RMS leak was fixed for the 997 - in fact, he indicated it was fixed for the last two years of the 996.

    Apparently the RMS seal has been redesigned several times but the problem still persists. There have been reports of RMS leaks on both 997s and 04 996s. At what level and frequency no one knows because Porsche is not forthcoming about it.

    The good news is that although this has been going on for quite some time, it does not seem to be considered a major problem or one that occurs often, and that 911s have decent reliability status.

    The bad news is that because of the RMS leak and another looming possibility, the intermediate shaft failure which requires engine replacement, many owners are leary about owning a modern-day 911 or Boxster out-of-warranty. The specter of having to pay for a replacement engine, although not considered high-risk, is not pleasant and has been discussed incessantly on the web. And I believe this has affected the once-stellar resale value of 911s.

    I heard there was an article that discusses the RMS situation in one of the recent Total 911 issues. Actually, I guess all of the issues are recent since it's a new magazine.
  • 997new06997new06 Member Posts: 1
    Okay, I'm a first time Porsche owner, who was lucky enough to step into a cancelled order for a new 2006. I took delivery of my C2 on July 30th (I was told one of the earliest delivery dates ever).

    Now I have already smashed the passenger corner of my air dam (sp?). Pulled into a parking spot that, for some inexplicable reason, had a one-foot high metal post sticking out of the ground that I never saw coming. First accident I have had in a decade, and of course its in my new baby.

    I called a local Porsche dealer, and they said I might as well take it to any high-quality body shop, which surprised me. In other words, the local guy would order the part from Porsche anyway, and provided they are skilled, could do just as good a job as Porsche's shop. First question is what is your opinion on that?

    The local guy has a great reputation, and handles lots of luxury cars. He said he would try to heat the corner, and see if he could push it back out. If it doesn't have any cracks, he could then repaint it. If I have it replaced, we're talking $2K. Second question, what would you do?

    Third, behind the problem crunch, there is some sort of air unit that looks like a honeycomb. The front has three of them, each behind the requisite air dam. The two on the corners are angled, diagonally. Anyway, this passenger side unit now has a dent it in. When I go to sell the car, anyone looking through the to-be-fixed air dam will see it. So, there is the question of whether or not to replace this?
  • pisceanpiscean Member Posts: 13
    I'll also echo the sentiment in congratulating you on your purchase, habitat1. Best of luck with your new 911 "family car". :) Once you've got the best, then you can't second guess yourself. I still have several months to wait for mine, but I might also be looking for some kind of a clear bra to protect the front end. I'll be checking the responses here as well for any input on it.

  • chef_jmrchef_jmr Member Posts: 41
    Ouch is right! I might get into trouble for suggesting this, but you should try rennteam.com as there are many more experienced people there, and it has way more action than this forum. You'll be waiting for days for someone to respond, and there, and other forums, you'll get multiple responses, quickly. Try also forums.rennlist.com
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I just picked up a new 2005 997 last night.

    CONGRATS! I knew you'd get the 911 all along! ;)

    For a car like a 911 I'd get the $699 level of protection, sounds like a good deal to me for all you get considering what that type of work would cost.

  • nattybnattyb Member Posts: 7
    Hello. I've decided to purchase a 2006 997. Very excited.
    The question is when to take delivery.
    I live in New Jersey and if I place the order now, I'll likely get it in December. I'm concerned that if I get it in December it will be the "dead of winter," and though I intend on driving the 997 as much as possible, I'm anticipating that in December and January, the bad weather will force me to use my alternate car.
    So...I could either go forward with the order now, or tell them to deliver it in February, which would save me a few months of lease fees.
    Please advise. Thanks!!!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282

    Thanks - and somehow I think you DID know I was going to get the 911, even before I did! Any stock tips from the great predictor?? ;)


    I think your order now or wait dilemma depends on what kind of car you are looking to get. If your specs are pretty generic, you might be able to get the best deal by leasing a stock car "in the dead of winter" over ordering one now or even in a couple of months. If, however, your specs are very specific, then I would suggest ordering one for February/March delivery. The idea of paying the first two or three lease payments at "full price" for the worst of the winter would be very frustrating to me.
  • pisceanpiscean Member Posts: 13
    Well, nattyb. I'm due for my own delivery of a 997 in January. I know that's
    not the best of times in the northeast, but if worse comes to worse, I'll just have them put it on a flat bed truck and deliver it from the dealership straight to my garage, with the hopes that it will be a milder winter thereafter.

    I could have told them to hold off, and that I want delivery in March, but hey, I would just rather look at it for a couple of months if need be, than lose more time of the '06 year waiting for it in anticipation. Before you know it, the '07's will be out.

  • bsumnerbsumner Member Posts: 39
    I'd make an investing analogy: you can't time the market . . . When you find the car you want, get it . . . and enjoy it.
  • fontaines911fontaines911 Member Posts: 5
    I have gone back and forth on the Clear bra thing. I have a 2006 997S in GT silver and got a pretty obvious stone chip on the upper front bumper and panicked and had a clear bra put on. I did not like the install and decided to have the bra pulled off and then to get the chip repaired professionally. Did that- and as I was getting the bra put back on I had the installer really screw up the paint by trying to color-sand the chipped area. I got my money back from him plus the $ 600 bucks it's going to cost to completely remove and repaint the front bumper. This is a 3 year lease car so my thoughts are ...... the front is going to get some damage/chips at some point. That is considered normal "wear and tear" under the lease but even if you have to get the bumper re-painted its still cheaper than getting a clear bra that will not save the paint if it's anything bigger that a small rock. And if a body shop has to do a re-pair/ re-paint... they will charge you 300 bucks to remove the clear bra! I think if it's a car that you will be keeping it's worth it. If not... drive the hell out of it and know that there will be some chips and probably worse the way everyone operates a vehicle out there. I saw a women backing up while talking on the phone and smack into a new Benz yesterday. It's a nightmare out there. A Bra would not have helped.
  • dweiserdweiser Member Posts: 288
    I have an 06 997 Carrera Cabriolet coming in December. The dealer is 88 miles away. They've offered free delivery. Does anyone think I have the right to ask them to flat bed truck deliver it?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You have the right to ask them anything you want. And they have the right to say yes or no. But, as I recall, you are paying MSRP, less $2,500 +/-? That's not much of a discount, so I don't think they should complain about your request.

    I was offered flatbed delivery to my door on my 05 Cab S. The dealer is 50 miles away. However, I chose to pick the car up so that I could inspect it in the dealer showroom before handing them my check. It was a stock car that had arrived at the dealer 6 weeks earlier. It hadn't been test driven, but you never know what can happen, even in the showroom. With your car being ordered and delivered directly to you, that shouldn't be an issue.
  • stomp32stomp32 Member Posts: 38
    It seems that Porsche owners on other forums are fanatical about putting the clear bra on their new cars. The cost is high; over $700 for a GOOD job, and you will have a visible line running across your hood where the bra ends. There have been numerous testimonials crediting the bra for saving many a paint job.

    My quest for the 911 suffered a setback when my wife decided she wants to invite her parents to accompany us on our next vacation. I truly enjoy their company, but man, at what cost. When, not if, I get my dream car, I will probably opt to not put the bra on. I will simply have a good cry at the occurrence of the first blemish, and it won't be so bad after that. How many of us have been paranoid about getting a ding on our new car, and when it invevitably happens, we curse the gods, the roads and highway authority, and all gravel trucks. And then a few months down the road, when that first ding has been joined by several others, we pretty much take it in stride. Besides, that $700 will get me at least a couple tanks of gas. I hope.

    Have fun breaking your baby in. It's gonna be hard to stay under 4000 rpm. Man, I envy you!
  • nattybnattyb Member Posts: 7
    Hey there. I'm just about to place my order. The last issue is navigation. I use a garmin unit in my current car with a "beanbag" device that you use to put on the dash. Problem is, when you accelerate too fast, it slides off. And I use the nav quite a lot. Any thoughts?
  • chef_jmrchef_jmr Member Posts: 41
    If you use it, get it. I think there is standard Nav, and extended Nav, you'll have to decide which one best fits your needs (they describe it on the Porsche website).

    Bean bag on the dash with a Garmin on it, in a Porsche??? Yeesh! It would be on the floor 99% of the time!!!

    $2000 or so, and you will actually use it. Not a must-have for most, but in this case, I'll say "must".
  • steebiesteebie Member Posts: 8
    I would go for the NAV. I have it in my 2006 997S and it is quite good; have it in my 2005 996 Turbo Cab as well. Wouldn't live without NAV in any car, and the 997's NAV is DVD.

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Since you have both a 996 Turbo Cab and a 997 S, for my curiosity, please compare and contrast the two. Thanks.
  • dweiserdweiser Member Posts: 288
    Received an email today from my salesperson, my 06 Carrera 4 Cab's estimated completion date is 10/24. It should hopefully be at the dealer here in NC by the end of November!
  • bsumnerbsumner Member Posts: 39
    A November build, I trust [read: hope]?
  • nattybnattyb Member Posts: 7
    Any strong opinions out there? Any pix?
  • angioplastyangioplasty Member Posts: 1
    Interior is clearly nicer on the 05 c2s. I believe the back end on the 04 c4s is wider and more attractive. Any thoughts. Anyone discounting used or demo 05 c2s ?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I know the back end on a 2004 (996) C4S is wider than the corresponding C2. Same goes for comparing the 2005/6 997 C2 and C4. But I am pretty sure the 997 back end is wider than the comparable 996 back end, so I doubt the 996 C4S is much, if any, wider than the 997 C2S.

    In any event, I found that the overall interior and exterior refinements of the 997 were much more appealing to me than the 996; not to mention the performance improvements. I could have gotten a heck of a deal on a virtually new (under 300 miles) leftover 2004 Cab, but as soon as I sat in and drove the 997, I was hooked.

    I don't think you need to go the used or demo route to get a decent deal on a 2005. I bought a brand new 2005 997 S Cabriolet two weeks ago at a nice discount. I did shop around quite a bit and it was somewhat of a unique situation. And it had about $3,000 in extra options that I wouldn't have ordered in a 2006. But now that I have the $2,400 sport exhaust, I love it. I used the Porsche website to check dealer inventories within 250-500 miles of where I live. Fortunately, I was able to buy from a dealer that is only about 45 miles away. The closer dealers either didn't have the car I was looking for, or if they did, weren't discounting much, if any.

    As far as I know, there are no differences between the 2005 and 2006, except that the base prices went up roughly 2.8% ($2,500 on the Cab 2S that I bought). The 2006's have begun arriving. So if you can find what you are looking for in a 2005, you should be able to strike a decent deal and save yourself some nice gas money. The difference between what I paid for an in stock 2005 and the best deal I could have gotten on a exactly comparable build to order 2006 (November/December delivery from a dealer 250 miles away, no less) was about $7,000. If I tried to order a 2006 locally, the difference would have been even greater.

    Hope this helps. Good luck.
  • dweiserdweiser Member Posts: 288
    My 06 was ordered 8/26 from the dealer's Nov. allotment. Porsche has been moving up the build dates of ordered cars by about 2 weeks. I don't know why but I'm not complaining. My P-car is now scheduled for completion on 10/24 and should arrive here in NC in November. A December arrival had been predicted.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    I have waited exactly 100 days from order date until today. I will be picking up my new 2006 C2S today. Everyone here in California has a silver or a black Porsche Cab, so.... I ordered a white coupe with a sand beige interior & packed options, except I stayed away from the extra electronics. Sports Chrono, Nav etc. Everything I have read over the last year says this car is so hot that there is no need to " tinker ". Some car critics also say the C4 and C4S with extra weight etc are still no better than the C2S. When is the last time any of you have hit the 170 mark on the speedo? Some extras, additions go into the ego file. With my kids out of college this year it was time to feed the mid-life crisis issue , after saving and investing for the last 20 years ( last Porsche owned was a 1977 911s ) I'm plunking down $50 shy of 100K CASH, PAID FOR, YES!! One item, no deals here in California , sticker on ordered cars.Dealer had 2 build dates only when car ordered in June. I'm dreamin'..
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    Congratulation! I have my 2006 Yellow/ Black cab for a month now and still having that smile every time I drive it. I assumed you are in S. Cal, because there were deals here in N. Cal.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    After turning 1,000 miles on the odometer of my 97 Cab S yesterday - 17 days after taking delivery - I believe it will be difficult for me to keep my mileage to under 12,000-15,000 miles per year. I only put 19,000 miles on a Honda S2000 in 30 months (7,500 / year), but it was only used a couple of long (200+ mile) highway trips. The noise with the top up was pretty harsh and 75 mph on the PA Turnpike with the top down gets tough after 2 hours. I am planning on taking the 911 next weekend on a round trip of 900+/- miles, meaning I will hit 2,000 miles inside of one month of ownership. This is a trip I could make as frequently as once or more a month, weather permitting. The fact that my daughters can fit in the back also means that the 911 will be used much more frequently than the old S2000. We are going pre-Halloween pumpkin hunting in the country this afternoon.

    What kind of miles are others putting or planning to put on their 911's? Am I the extreme exception to the rule with a projection of 12-15k per year? A friend owns a 2001 911 Turbo that he claims to "drive a lot". It has 11,000 miles, since he bought it new almost 5 years ago. Seems like Boxsters get more miles on them than 911's.

    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. I love looking at this car, but I love driving it even more.
  • bks1bks1 Member Posts: 3
    Just took delivery of a 06 997 Conv (White/Sand/Black Top) on Saturday. I might be out of the norm but I bought my car to dirve it. Like you I find it hard to have only 11K miles on a 5 year old car. I will be lucky to keep under 15K/yr. After talking about buying a Porsche for years my wife told me to get one and be happy. Giving that the kids are young (they fit in the back nicely) it was time to make the move.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    I've tried to drive the car as much as I could but having to drop off and pick up a 1 and 4 yr old everyday. The leaning forward backrest (80 degress?) of the cab rear seat makes it even harder. It is much easier to use the minivan.
  • pabs1pabs1 Member Posts: 15
    Hello Everybody,
    First, I have already 1000 miles on my new 997S and it is a blast, hard to describe in words.
    Second: I am quoting from the last Automobile magazine, " greatest sports cars "
    regarding the multiple personalities of the 911:
    " The base carrera is fro strivers, The GT2 for millionaires, The C4 appeals to faint hearted, The Turbo to those who are always in a hurry, and the cabriolet to ones who are not,The GT3 and the Gt3 RS are for real and would be racers, the targa for part time sun worshipers, and the carrera S for those who want the most compelling compromise."
    Also I would like to share , I ordered trough the internet " Klasse all-in-one " wax/cream and it is unbelivebable on my Lapis Blue, also I finish the treatment with Carnouba P21S and the results are incredible, I will definetly recomend it as atreatment for a new Porsche.

    keep enjoying this beautiful machines.

  • bks1bks1 Member Posts: 3
    I am a 911 newbee. Just took delivery of a 997 Conv this past weekend. What a great car! I am looking to keep the car looking new as long as possible. How do you guys/gals keep the inside of your wheels clean? I am talking about the area where the brakes are? Do you take the tire off and clean the inside and if so how often do you do this?

  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107

    No deals here in So. CAl. What a car... I have an 04' 525i BMW and for sure a BMW is NOT a Porsche. I can't wait to punch this sucker. How to wait for 2000 miles before going over 4500 rpm is the tough question. Kids done with college... now it's my turn ....Build quality is excellent, Carrera White and Sand Beige looks great in person, no picture does it justice...
    Man I'm dreaming.. ya a smile everytime you get in the car. What a kick!!

  • pabs1pabs1 Member Posts: 15
    For all you here in CA , do you really have to install the FRONT license plates , and if not how many times did you get " caught " and have to pay a fine, and how much was it ?
    Thanks for your replies.
  • rcl5659rcl5659 Member Posts: 4
    I am a father of three children, so feel obliged to fully take into account car safety.

    Historically, I have always bought Mercedes sedans, believing they provided the best balance of safety and performance.

    I would love to drive a 911 but am not sure about their safety. I assume due to their expense and/or low sales volume, whenever I look them up on the web for crash test results it always comes up "not tested".

    Based on their racing heritage, I can believe that 911s are built to be safe. But how does this really translate to pubic road safety? For example, if a 911 gets hit by a large SUV what is the expectation? The 911 sits low and the engine is in the back, so what happens in a head-on crash with a larger vehicle?

    I know Porsche tries very hard to make these cars safe, but does anyone have any DATA on how well 911s actually fare on the public streets?

    I really don't like SUVs. I'm sure the Cayenne is extremely safe and fun to drive, but I'm interested in how the 911 does in reality. I'm looking for hard data - - but would also be interested in any thoughts you all may have in this area.

  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    I have asked this exact question at Rennlist and seems that nobody has installed the front license plate. Some mentioned to stay away from S.F. as the cops there will ticket cars w/o the plate. I am in the South Bay and hardly go to SF (not with my Porsche anyway) so I intend not to install the front on mine when the plates arrive.
  • boxsterjeffboxsterjeff Member Posts: 3
    I just ordered a 997 coupe. Yellow/Black. I have a C230K with 4 seats. It will be fun to take my 3 little ones for a ride in the Porsche. The dealers here in Houston will not deal too much. Everyone says that they will, but I found our talk is cheap. I really do not need a salesperson, as I know more about Porsches that they do. I found Dallas(180Miles away) to really value my business. They were nice and offered a discount for a PCA member. I have been Porscheless for almost 5 years and I can not wait until January. Any ideas on the clear bra? I think I am going to have on installed. I talked to a couple of people at the Houston Auto show and they said they had NO CHIPS !! My boxster looked like a war zone on the front as I tend to drive fairly fast. I catch a lot of flack for a yellow car? Does everyone hate yellow? I have had Green,Blue,Black,Brown,Gold,Yellow,Red and now Speed Yellow.I am not going to put front plate on and never had on any of my cars.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Since this isn't a Porsche only issue I'll give you the take from the Corvette crowd. I've got 3 cars without front plates, 2 Vettes and a '71 280SL. I got ticketed at the Oakland Airport about 8-10 years ago in the public lots in an econobox daily driver, but have not had any issue in the last 5 years. Downtown SF and any place that has red light cameras usually cracks down on no front plate, doesn't apply to most of suburbia. I know people that refuse to take their Vette into SF. Since they won't pull you over for that issue, the key is not to get tagged for something else or you will probably get a fixit to go with it. I'm betting less than 10% of C5's have a front plate and I'll be surprised if anyone ever puts one on a new C6 without duress.
  • pabs1pabs1 Member Posts: 15
    I debated about the clear bra and finally after 10 minute decided to have it installed,
    The only thing is that I only had it installed on the front bumper , lights and bottom front ( where intakes are ) NOT on the hood , I know that is where chips occur but it forms an ugly line across the hood and on a Lapis Blue color it is quite noticible.
    So I would definetly go for the clear bra.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    The same day I bought my Porsche, I picked up my BMW from a local dealer after having service. Not directly a Porsche issue true, but heed the difference in the way I was treated.
    My BMW was bought 1 year ago at the dealer , in for service, dented, repaired and returned.The dent must have been repaired with playdough and and emery board, it looked like [non-permissible content removed] .I was NOT told of the dent or repair. The Porsche dealer treated me like a KING.Besides the thill of the new C2S, the people there were happy for me.
    The BMW was a $52,000 vehicle when purchased new and has only 5,200 miles on the odom. I meet with the general manager at the BMW dealer on friday to sort this out. My understanding is that here in California and unauthorized repair is subject to a $10k fine, will be more than interesting to see the GM squirm. I wonder what thier policy is for dealing with this type of deceitful process ... will tell results to you guys this weekend..LIve and Learn

  • boxsterjeffboxsterjeff Member Posts: 3
    Thanks for the input. I am getting a speed yellow and the line is not to easy to see. I think that is where you get the worst rock chips. Anyone know the status of satalite radio for the 997? My dealer in Houston, which I had to get my deposit returned was not happy with me. Poor guy thought 2K was a good fee for him. I found a better deal in Dallas and they knocked 4K off sticker and that is in writing, which nobody would do.I can not wait until January.
  • tomtomtomtomtomtom Member Posts: 491
    I love my "Yellow Cab". I thought about "custom orange" but decided not to.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Buy a set of personalized plates, LOSE the front one as soon as it arrives, order a replacement right away ($13 here in WA and it takes forever) keep the documents handy....

    Gee, officer, here's the paperwork where I ordered the replacement but it hasn't come yet (and if it has never say so!)
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