All Things Porsche
Mr_Shiftright
Member Posts: 64,481
in Porsche
This is a new forum to discuss anything and everything about Porsche automobiles (not SUVs!), from the oldest to the newest.
MrShiftright
(past and present Porsche owner)
MrShiftright
(past and present Porsche owner)
Tagged:
0
Comments
The 928 is a bit of an animal. I can see why 911 owners prefer the lighter, more agile 911. The term "German Corvette" has been used to describe the 911 and it's not far off the mark, except that it has much better build quality than older Corvettes that one might compare it to.
The 928 is a man's car, no doubt about it. You have to sort of manhandle it. With the K&N filter and temporary catalytic testing tube in place, it sounds REALLY great.
The last 928s are much faster but the early ones are probably sturdier and less maintenance intensive. The V8 engine goes forever, it'll be ticking when the rest of the car is junk.
1) 1976 912E (one-year only model). This car had a VW engine in a great-looking body. Deserved better attetion.
2) Any 924. I dislike the overall quality so much it would take too long to bash this one.
3) Early 944s (1983-85). Drove great, but the interior was the same cheap, plasticky one found in the 924, and I hate the gauge design too.
4) 1973-77 911s. These had the problematic 2.7-liter engines with thermal reactors. I had a friend whose '74 blew up around 90k miles because of the failed head studs. It's been sitting in his driveway for 15 years waiting for a rebuild.
Now for my all-time favorite Porsches:
1) 1996-98 911 Carrera 4S. I tried to take on one of these on the interstate with my Volvo sedan. Needless to say I got humiliated badly.
2) Any 968. These cars looked really great and had excellent handling to boot. The motors also sounded great too.
3) 1986-89 911 Carreras. I just like them because they have classic styling and they will go on forever, unlike most of the junk of that era.
4) 1998 911 Turbo S. The ultra-rare model (only 185 sold in US) of the newer 993 series. I understand that Jerry Seinfeld owns one. How much do you think those babies would sell for today?
Jrosasmc (avowed Volvo and Porsche lover)
The 912E is an odd duck...my slogan for that car is "VW performance at Porsche repair prices". The original 912 is powered by the final version of the 356 engine, so it's a Porsche through and through.
The 914, especially the 2.0 liter with chrome bumpers, is a great little car for the money. They are a killer in autocross and very well built and designed. Styling is not to everyone's taste. Stay away from cars converted to Weber carbs. Never run right. Also a VW powered car, but that don't mean "cheap to fix". Transmission is from a 911 as is most front end stuff.
As for the newer Porsches, they still embody the spirit of the old, which is remarkable, but they don't have that old "electric wire" feeling. They are more luxurious and comfortable and not so nervous. I prefer 2WD to 4WD myself.
ERRATA: I meant to say in the last post that the 928 is called "The German Corvette", not the 911. Just a typo.
wife OKed the purchase of a 928 even.
hey, I know many must be sore about Porsche making a SUV....but its a great car....the Cayenne has gobs of power, can do go where most fear to tread....and performs better than a boxster S on the Nurbringing track.
sorry shifty, but I know you said no SUV....but just to inject my .02 cents....
congrats on your 928 again..
Just got my Car & Driver in the mail with the road test for the newest Porsche. Looks like the car might have a little more of the old feeling built back into it.
I think Billy Joel's stranger just hit me right between the eyes. Highender, would you kindly provide a reference so I can put this into perspective. You wouldn't want me to go running to trade in my Boxster S for a Cayenne under any false pretense would you?
;-)
I had a 2000 Boxster S, with 250 hp ...also.
But I don;t drive the Cayenne like the Boxster. the two are for 2 diff purposes...
I read it the first time in EVO magazine, when they compared the Cay Turbo to I think it was the Audi All road twin turbo, the Ranger by Overfinch, and a Impreza Turbo....and they mentioned that it did the nurbringen better than the BMW M3, and similar numbers to boxster S.
I have a whole stack of saved articles on Cayenne, so let me dig thru it....
some articles are from Car & Driver, some from Porsche bulletins, some from EvO, Motor trend, etc....let me get the exact issue...(I'm at work)
but I think the point is that the turbo version can hold its own with many sports sedans, and even a few sports cars....
sorry shifty....
back to 'regular Porsches'....
A couple of questions,
- Any particular maintenance / mechanical issues specific to the 2002 model year that I should be aware of?
- What are your opinion(s) of the 911 C4's winter ability? My current S2000 (which I will keep!) is more or less useless in the winter. My friend, in contrast, is on his third AWD 911 and has driven every single one of them through Detroit winters without incident. He claims that even with the Potenza S03s he's running, the 911 is a fine daily driver so long as there isn't much more than a couple of inches of snow on the ground. (In contrast... my S2000 goes sideways if there's a dusting.) I'd like to know if he is overstating things, or if the AWD + PSM really does make the car a reasonable winter driver for non-blizzard conditions.
2) Admittedly, this isn't apples to apples.. but..
My wife's 325i goes like a tank on winter tires.. and this is a car that has a deservedly poor reputation for winter traction.. Also, (more apples to oranges), I had an '84 911.. which of course was not AWD, and with all that weight on the rear tires, I had no problems in winter driving (all-season performance tires).
3) With the proper tires, I'm thinking that car would do great in the winter.. I'm not sure if there are stock winter sizes for the C4S, and it might involve buying another set of wheels, but it sounds ideal to me.
4) If you get the performance oriented winter tires (Bstone LM22, Dunlop M3, Goodyear Ultra-Grip GW-3), then you won't be sacrificing much in the way of handling, either... A lot of winter tires are now V-rated.
Hopefully someone will chime in with some directly related experience.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
kyldx - thanks for the input; duly noted.
Also with a C4 you need to have the financial cushion to deal with more complex repair and maintenance. Repairs are not for the faint-hearted. Buyers are advised to visit a qualified shop and talk about the fee schedules.
But by all means, buy what you like and what suits your driving skills, climate, etc.
PS., I drive my RSA all winter (though not in storms if I can help it) with no help except for H-rated Pirelli Snowsport 210s.
JW
Just heard there is no dipstick on the 997. Not sure I care for that one even though my digital oil gauge seems dead-nuts accurate as compared to the stick. Are there other cars out there without dipsticks or is this an “innovation”?
Will be interesting following the 997 especially after the 911 has been enjoying good reliability standings. I suppose the new Boxster will be right in there with this as it shares many systems and parts.
I disagree -- there is no way my 1993, even with its nearly $20k of mods -- can even begin to keep up with the most base of 997s. And those ten years older than mine are "slower" still.
In one sense, of course, the "performance" has gone away (i.e., changed) in that it is now more about raw numbers and less about an experience ... a sound and feel and so on.
Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of electronics and luxury bits have been added on that make the experience impossible and jeopardize the reliability, even in the race versions of the cars (which once were also the street versions of the Porsche!) I'm not so much worried about the guy taking in his luxo cruiser with all the leather and sound system and climate control and all that seven times as I am about Porsches suddenly not able to finish at LeMans or Daytona or Sebring -- that would surely destroy the tradition.
My own fear is that the simplicity, which surely is being eliminated from Porsche (and is the point of your post), will ruin everything that Is Porsche right along with it as it is replaced by qualities (like luxury and high tech stuff) that are not part of the history.
The good side is that it will certainly help the depreciation on my car, I guess.
JW
I am a 19 year old, and a Dallas-based business owner. I own a internet/web based IT firm. I work in a pretty upscale residential/commericial neighborhood and I consider myself to be a business professional.
Down the street from the office builing, we have a Porsche and Mercedes dealership named Park Place Motors. They have been in this area for many years and it is well known to cater to Dallas' upscale automotive clients (the rich...lol).
I am considering buying a Porsche Boxster soon (the new redesigned model) and I was wondering what you all thought about a 19 year young man buying a car of this caliber. The only reason I am asking is because of the possible skeptism when it comes to a test drive. Do you think the dealer will take me seriously when it comes to test driving the car? Or should I go ahead and purchase the Porsche without ever driving it?
Just wanted to hear some advice on this. I am thinking that the dealership will just brush me off and not take me seriously.
Please help me!
Definitely don't buy a Porsche -- any Porsche -- without a test drive. They are unusual cars with an unusual feel and fit, and you may not like it .... they aren't for everyone. There's a lot of feedback. The new Boxster is supposed to have more room, but it still could be a bit tighter than whatever you're used to. You don't say if you like to drive a manual, or if you enjoy the roughness of a sporty ride, and there are a lot of other issues that may make you decide to look elsewhere.
And finally the question comes up as to whether you SHOULD buy a Boxster. If this is your first sports car, I'd suggest you avoid the 'S' model so you can learn to drive it well before you add enough power to allow you to cheat without learning to drive properly. If you're used to sports cars, on the other hand, you still have to ask yourself what you expect to get out of the car ... and determine if a Porsche will give you what you want. What I mean is this -- if this is primarily going to be transportation to/from your business, stick with a 2nd hand Camry as it's a better investment. A Boxster is a toy and a luxury depreciation, not transportation primarily. If you want a chick magnet (like I did at 19!) you can get something the girls will like a lot better for a lot less money.
I don't mean to insult you, and hope I haven't, but I answered this way because of what you said and didn't say. You're not in the demographic for the car, but if you like the experience, the car could be the most fun you'll have sitting down! lol
Btw, the local dealer doesn't expect to have Boxsters available for drives for awhile, so this may slow you down for a few months.
JW
On the other hand I did find an '88 at a dealer which I'll be looking at today with 50,000. Any suggestions? thxs,
You NEED to buy this book from Amazon by Peter Zimmerman! Best $20 you'll ever spend.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963172670/qid=1104- - 855701/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-7816522-6856635?v=glance&s=books
Host
The problem is that the labor to remove the top so as to repair it is so high that you might as well replace the top. This is the logic and it makes sense I guess.
So is the window separating from the top, and you are getting a leak. Is that the issue?
JW
One of the reasons there are so many good deals around for the 90-91s, trialfast, is because of that reputation. And ten years ago, it would have been correct. But, in my opinion, it is likely no longer valid, and a good looking deal on a good looking 90-91 is truly a good deal in all likelihood. Here's why:
The 90-91 got a reputation for bad oil leaks from the Porsche experiment with a seal-less case, it had a problem with its dual-mass flywheel, and the distributor sometimes wreaked havoc due to not being vented so the ozone buildup inside would corrupt the belt which would then break with, potentially, catastrophic results. Sounds bad, right?
But -- if a car is still running and has been owned by a Porsche fan .... all of that stuff has been fixed or is not going to be an issue -- it's been 14 years, after all. Here's the scoop -- in 92, Porsche revised the flywheel. (Most owners have since upgraded the flywheel on their 90-91.) In '92, Porsche switched to a sealed case -- badly leaking cases were upgraded. Many (most?) never sprang a serious leak and, while some people are paranoid about a dime-size drop on the garage floor, the fact is that you have 14 some quarts to work with! Finally, the distributor vent costs 75 cents for you to fix, $20 at the dealer, with a kit that was made available in 92 or 93. (But if the vent needs to be added, you will probably want to change the belt to be safe .... that is more expensive.)
The fact is that the 911, beginning with the C4 in 89 (and the C2 in 90) is a major step forward over previous 911s, though purists from the good ole days will argue the point. Those who like the air-cooled machines that were marketed from 90-98, however, conduct their argument with torque and horsepower -- you just can't beat it! The car is a delightful beast.
The 964 was available from 89-94 and prices for it are quite a bit cheaper than for the 993 (95-98). This is because people felt the 964 had awkward looking bumpers, or so I understand, but of course 964 owners are perfectly happy with their choice. 993 owners have a more powerful car yet, and a style that is a little more modern with the swept-back headlights, a look that, again, is a matter of taste. They have bid the prices on the 993 version up beyond reasonable value and they are only now starting to depreciate quickly. If you want one, I'd suggest buying a 964 for acouple of years to tide you over, then pick up a good 993 when the prices quit falling so fast.
The book Shifty recommended is a good one, but if you get a 964, you'll really want "Porsche 911: Enthusiast's Companion, Carrera 2, Carrera 4 and Turbo: 1989-1994" by Adrian Streather. A lot of stuff you hear about Porsches is more legend than fact, but Streather's book is all fact and backed up with actual research.
My own car is a 93, just in case you wanted to know.
Good luck in your decision. Have you driven one of the cars, yet? Any car you are interested in should have COMPLETE service records -- if not, walk away. And any car should have a thorough going over by an independent Porsche mechanic in a PPI (usually $150-$250) -- don't go to the dealer for this as dealer mechanics are no longer used to working on the air-cooled machines and often aren't all that sure of what they are looking at.
JW
Good info on the 964... interesting..
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Sellers of old Porsches come in three sizes....the Good (Angels sent to help us), the Bad (ignorant) and the Ugly Bad (treacherous fiends).
I had a early 1982 928...
it never gave us any trouble....it was great....wife OKed another 928... so I am searching....
1. Previous owner's neglect
2. Stupid electrical glitches, like car alarm, electric door locks.
But when I bought my used Porsches (this is #4, I've had one of each 914, 911, 912 and 928) I followed my own advice (for a change). I bought cars with a recorded history, had a good shop go over it with a fine tooth comb, and bargained a price to allow enough budget to bring the car "up to a safe and reliable standard".
Each time it worked out for me. There were no unpleasant surprises. Sure, I had to throw some money at each of these cars, but I had fun and while I never "made" money, I never took a bath on one, either.
The newer Porsches I can't quite afford---well, I could buy a mid 90s but then I'd have to do without other luxuries like health insurance. If this year is more prosperous I'd like to upgrade to an SC cabriolet. I'm shy of the 90-91s and won't buy one personally. I don't care who did what to it. I'm stubborn about that.
The new ones I've driven (2004) are of course a dream to drive compared to the old iron I'm pushin', but in some ways the older cars have a lot to offer as well.
I love that V-8 thunder and that King Kong gearshift on the 928. At the end of the day I feel I've been flying an old Mustang, not an F-16.
sorry for rambling. Porsche people get like this.
Thank God, I thought my mind was going! lol
JW
Shifty, paint your 928 like this if you really want that P-51 feeling.
Maybe throw on the shark's teeth and invasion stripes?
Hey JW, howdy partner!
Speeds2much, it's been a while. Has your P ship come in? Gettin' close?
Hope all's well.
How does Mrs. Designman like it?
Good to see you again. JW
I am taking the last few careful steps before I own a Porsche. I am debating between a 2005 Boxster Conv and 2003 911(996) Carrera cab(RWD). My heart is for the latter (cant afford a new 911 though). Pardon my long post !
I wanted feedback and guidance on 3 key things :
1. Any known issues or things to watch out from a day to day or maintainence issues POV on either the 2005 Boxster or 2003 911 ?
2. Advise on pricing and deal.
The Boxster is a 2005 and currently with its options incl 18" Boxster S wheels, climate control, heated seats, sound package plus & windstop (deflector) is at MSRP $48,775. What is the realistic deal I can expect in terms of discount or any suggestion on what I can ask for. This car is at the dealers for ready delivery.
On the 2003 911, it is a certified one. Hence the warranty should run at least till 2007/48k or 2009/100k.It is with Tiptronic, 16k miles on it and has full leather, rear spoiler, bose sound package etc. The KBB value is $74,160. The dealer is quoting $72,995. According to the inspection report the car is in great shape except one curbed wheel. The tires are very fresh Frt6/32 and Rr8/32 (new 10/32). Again what is the realistic deal I can push for here.
3. This is more a financial solution question. With the boxster I could potentially buy it through a car loan, and with the 911 I would like to stick to a lease. But given that if I buy the boxster I would like to get a 911 in say 3yrs time, I am keen to lease that too. Any dos and donts on lease vs buy on either the 2005 boxster or more importantly on the 2003 911 ? Am i going to pay way too much into the equity and walk away on the 2003 911, if i decide to switch to a 911 S or 911 AWD later.
since I am a less experienced on the porsche side any other feedback or inputs would be great too.
Thanks
designman - Whoa, where'd you find that tank!? lol Does it have twin machine gun mounts on the hood? I think the owner should rent out the car to Hollywood. As for your question, yes, I'm getting close.
2) Used car leases are rarely good deals... If the only way to afford the 911 is a lease, then pass on it..
3) A lease is a good idea for the Boxster.. If at the end of the lease, you like it, you could always purchase it for the residual value.. If not, you'll be ready to buy that 911...
Not an expert... just my $0.02..
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Thanks
Bala
Speeds2much Curious how you call your Jag a sardine can. The 911 ain’t exactly a king size bed. I’ve often pondered how small they really are. But the ride is so “large” that everything else tends becomes insignificant. I remember you once saying that the drop-top quickly got old for you. I hope the cockpit size of the 911 doesn’t do this to you because if you need your space it could indeed wear you out as a daily driver.
Balap the 986 and 996 Porsches—the previous generation Boxster and 911—are taking a hit with resale, especially the Boxster, so be careful what you buy. I’m not saying don’t buy them, but do your research because you can easily overpay. Take advantage of the depreciation on the purchase. From what I understand there are still 04 leftovers going at hefty discounts while the discounts on the new models are not so good. So, as “first model year” equates to excitement, it also means “kiss money goodbye.” I think you can do better on that 03 911. As far as the Boxster, it’s too early to get a beat on prices as the early must-have buyers keep the prices up near retail—not what yours truly is willing to pay in light of Porsche pricing in recent years.
And remember... Expensive Porsche options bring only about 10%-20% of their value on resale... and a Tiptronic will actually lose you money over and above the option cost.. If buying new, get the cheapest one you can find..
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
designman - My Jag feels cramped even versus the 997. I think it starts with the seats. I'm about 6'1" tall, 175 pounds, and the driver's seat is too short and narrow, with inadequate back support. I recently rented a Chevy Malibu and was far more comfortable and liked the view out the front windshield. lol
The front windshield is narrow...so is the rear window. My knees hit the dashboard when I pull the seat close enough for my arms. I can never seem to get into a comfortable driving position.....It's the Jag philosophy that goes back decades, I think. Sit low with a long hood in front of you, enclosed. I don't mean to simply gripe....the engine sounds great and the 5-speed is sharp...but if the car hadn't been literally handed to me, I wouldn't be driving it.
speeds2much -- exactly my reaction to an S-type I had for a short while! I'm eager to hear what you end up with for your purchase -- the new Boxster does sound very interesting, but I don't think I'll be doing anything until they do something about the engine. (I'm just an old curmudgeon I guess!)
designman -- what a great idea! Purple with flames -- I've toyed with adding neons to the bottom of my RSA, and maybe getting one of those suspension kits that make it bounce off the ground while it goes along. Have you prices some 22's with spinners? If we can make this catch on, mabe we can establish the THPBCA (Town Hall Porsche Bltitz Club of America), have a parade with Mr. Shiftright as our grand marshal. I can guarantee a veerrrry small membership!
JW
I'm also curious what you don't like about the Boxster engine. Is it the constant chug-chug noise? I've thought about possible NVH issues for the Boxster coupe and that would definately sway me toward the 997. I'm not dissing the Boxster, either, because noise is not such an issue for a ragtop...especially when not a year-round, daily driver. I drove a Boxster for three days and never noticed because the top was always down, anyway.
I will of course tape over my mouth regarding whether the $10K is worth it or not.
The Honda S2000 did a lot better than anyone expected, mostly I think because the new ones are much improved from the jittery cars of the first year.
The Viper was, of course, the animal of the group, but it did excel where it was built to excel. They called it the "white knuckle car" of the group, which is quite correct IMO.
Back on topic: I think I've bored people enough with my rants on how Porsche has "watered down" the design of its sports cars over the past 8-9 years, but my biggest gripe is with the engine. (Certainly, as everyone who can read or see the cars go by knows, the Boxster is a wonderful drive, etc., etc., and worthy of all of its awards, even so.) Everyone hears about the complaints about the RMS leaks which both cause and are symptomatic of other engine problems. The RMS design was instituted to save money. Another issue is the abandonment of the dry sump oil system which they used with great success until 1998. Moving to a wet sump was a way of saving money. (THey are, however, apparently a little embarrassed about this, and so they call the system, with its buried pump, an "integrated dry sump" thereby answering the marketing question ... when does 'dry' actually mean 'wet'?)
These are two examples of the cost-cutting that went into the design of the Boxster (in an attempt to lower the entry point for Porsche ownership -- an excellent article on this in the "InLine" publication at the opening of Edmund's right now: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=104494?tid- =edmunds.h..insideline.promo.3.*
To those who are really interested in the innards of the car, probably this all seems pretty uninteresting and picky ... until you start having RMS problems and have to replace the engine, then realize you may have to replace the engine again because there's no cure for the problem since it's a design issue, and the next time the car will be out of warranty! And for those who want to compete .... which is why Porsche's once were made: race cars which could be driven on the street .... there are heat problems which will diminish the longterm durability of the car. Durability was Porsche's stock in trade, winning the London-Dakar rally in 1989 to prove the point.
Porsche knows all of this: their track-ready cars, the GT-3, the GT-2, even the Turbo, have another, entirely different, engine. Porsche always had only one engine. Many were waiting to see if Porsche would fix the errors they built into the 986/996. But the New engines for the 987/997 are the same story.
Sorry to sound like a curmudgeon, as I said, but as much as I like the Boxster and the 996/997, I'm going to avoid any that aren't under warranty and will sell them before the warranty closes. My current Porsche is 12 years old and shows every sign of being ready for track and street for another 12 or more years.
Hope I wasn't too boring this time!
JW
I love the 928...lots of room and runs forever ( well, mine did)
had a boxster S...and it was great also...but not enough room for a family.
I am checking out with Devek to see if any 928s are coming up for sale...
I suppose when you unleash some true enthusiasts on a bunch of sports cars, it's like unleashing a bunch of guys on the Swedish swimsuit team...they love them all. ;o)
I kind of wonder how the RX-8 would have done given that many articles say it is more satsifying than a 350Z (which did horribly). I think it might have put up a good fight with the S2000.
As for the money factor. I think resale alone would justify spending an extra $10K on the Porsche.
I also wondered how good of a sports car a Viper can be if a professional can't correct it when it gets out of line. What good is it if you can't drive it on the edge?
I will dutifully try to inject more suspense into my next referral from magazines!
shifty the host