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Stability Control, are you ready for it?
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It is stopping the car from getting out of control in the first place.. It works amazingly well at that..
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Randy
From what (admittedly little) I have experienced of ESC, you would nearly have to have your foot fully planted on the throttle to get that to happen, otherwise the braking action would slow the car to the point that the whipsaw effect was no longer possible. That's my theory, anyway...
Those type of out-of-control scenarios really shouldn't take place on public roads. It's true that ESC won't help if you spin the wheel to lock while going 50mph on black ice. However, that's a falacious scenario and not really relevant to any situation in the real world.
The majority of crashes and out of control situations occur when someone is driving slightly too fast for the combination of their skills and the conditions. Under those conditions, ESC will save lives (and rims, paint, etc). Furthermore it accomplishes that task via a combination of reaction times, 'feel' and control that no human can emulate.
I suggest that the skeptics find a dealer on a snowy day and test drive a vehicle with ESC. I know from my own experience that in an unplowed parking lot, ESC will overcome some really stupid driver input.
EX: From a stop, cut the wheel to one side, drop the clutch at 3k and floor it. Believe it or not, the car will drive in a turning-radius circle. Sure there will be a lot of flashing on the dash and some really interesting ABS sounds coming from the corners. Also, the position of the gas pedal will no longer have any bearing on engine speed or throttle position. That being said, if ESC can overcome that much stupidity in those conditions, there is very little that can be done under regular driving conditions and inputs that would overcome ESC's ability to pull the vehicle back in line.
ESC helps good drivers. When they encounter unexpected conditions, it will make sure they stay upright, on-road and safe.
ESC helps stupid drivers. Go ahead and floor it while turning right on red in front of oncoming traffic in bad conditions. ESC and traction control will get you around that corner and moving forward as fast as is safely possible. Hopefully the oncoming traffic also has ESC so they don't wipe out trying to avoid you.
ESC does not help suicidal drivers. Take a downhill, cliffs-edge, hairpin turn at 80mph in a snowstorm... ESC won't save you. Darwin and I agree that it probably shouldn't.
Turboshadow
Well I'm with you when you discuss driving on public roads. However, I drive on road race tracks and I can speak from experience when I dropped about 1/3 of my right rear tire into some dirt at the end of an outside berm on a left hander going up hill at Sears Point. I was doing just about 100mph at that point and the system caused 4 tail slappers, very hard slaps, while I was hanging on to the wheel steering up where I wanted to go, since the front wheels were planted firmly on asphalt and yes I was slowed but no more than I needed to do anyway to make turn 2. Very lucky in this case!
Never say never ...
"Those type of out-of-control scenarios really shouldn't take place on public roads."
We agree completely!
However, I got to talk to a friend of a friend who wanted more input after his Corvette took on the center median on the freeway. After discussing what happened, someone entering his lane and his attempt to avoid them by crossing the commuter lane and then return to his lane, since he didn't want a ticket for being a single driver in the commuter lane, he over corrected and the front end when it got grip was pointed back at the median. The car was going too fast to get back where he pointed it so the system took a route that kept the wheels in contact with the road. If he had just ignored the need to get out of the commuter lane he probably would have avoided the wall since he would only have needed to correct half as much.
Pretty much. If you start with a 4-channel ABS system, adding TC requires a couple additional solenoids in the hydraulic control unit and different firmware in the ECU. Adding ESC requires a couple more sensors (steering input and yaw) plus additional code in the firmware. Plus a whole lot more vehicle development time.
All the major brake suppliers do all their own development for both hardware and software. Who gets which piece of business is driven by cost, performance and how well the buyers and engineers like your sales people (which is why many supplier sales people are attractive young women)
"ESC and traction control will get you around that corner and moving forward as fast as is safely possible".
I recall reading at some point of some systems (and experienced this myself with a TC equipped car) that basically shut down the car in some low traction conditions. I believe it was a road test of an MB that really harped on it.
Not really that safe if yo upull out on a slick road, and instead of a little tire sin, the comuter just keeps pulling back power or hitting the brakes, so you basically sit there and don't move.
Not exactly an ESC issue, but still relevant to the proliferation of computer controlled nanny systems.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
i've had it engage a few times on my ODY when i stomped on it with wet roads. i quickly recognized what was happening and i knew enough to take it easier on the gas.
Regarding your "friend of a friend", I don't mean to offend, but it sounds like they're a really bad driver. Losing control of a modern Corvette on a 6+ lane highway at highway speeds has to include some really bad driver input.
ESC can't take the corvette in a direction that the driver hasn't aimed it. If the Corvette driver made contact with the divider, then his (front) steering wheels were pointed toward the divider.
My guess is that you must've heard the 'official' story. I bet the unofficial story involved triple digit speeds and at least one other yahoo... I mean driver.
I've heard ESC being used as a scapegoat by people who don't understand physics. Much like the people who claim that their car sped up when they hit the brakes or that traction control slowed them down. Those impressions are caused when someone expects a car to slow down or speed up by a certain amount but instead slows down or speeds up much less.
So, in my Accord, if I start to skid I have to turn into it to catch the back end, but on my Odyssey, I need to keep the wheels pointed straight otherwise the car will head off the road (the directtion the wheels are pointed)?
Even worse, what if you have a kid that could possibly drive both vehicles? How do you teach them?
This all makes me nostalgic for the days of doing donuts in the HS parking lot with my '73 Duster. No ESC on that baby! not much traction either come to think of it...
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I prefer the BMW model of alowing the driver to control the action, and only stepping in when it seems to really be getting out of hand over the Toyota "supernanny" training wheels set up.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Someone with more experience than I can correct me but....from what I understand, the systems will detect and correct understeer/oversteer issues (in normal driving) so quickly that usually the driver never even knows that a skid was averted.
So from that standpoint, it should make no difference. The operation should be transparent and not require any driver adaptation. I don't have my Ody manual in front of me but I don't recall any discussion about "Don't try to steer into a skid with the ESC on this minivan".
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That is it, exactly...
Unlike ABS, the only thing you need to know about stability control.. is to turn it off, when you get stuck in mud or snow..
Really... unless you track your car, it doesn't matter..
For most problems, keep your feet off the pedals, and point the car straight down the road.. That works whether you have stability control, or not.. If it doesn't work, you were already too late..
regards,
kyfdx
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Rorr & others: You should always steer into a skid. ESC or no, keep the wheels pointed in the direction you want to go. With ESC however, you'll likely never have to change your steering angle because the system will have already corrected by the time you realize what's going on. In the same situation (but without ESC) you'll be able to steer into the skid a few tenths of a second later.
If your back end ever gets out of line, of course you should steer into the skid. Realize, however, that you're not pointing your wheels off road or into the median, you're pointing them in the direction you wish to travel. When the back end gets 15 degrees out of line, you should have turned your front wheels 15 degrees away from median to compensate. It's the same with or without ESC.
Just hitting the brakes (instinctive reaction) in an understeer situation should help the front wheels bite and get the vehicle back under control. With the amount of understeer dialed into today's cars (especially a nose-heavy, FWD, Honda Odyssey) it takes some determination to get one to oversteer.
Or, worn rear tires and new front tires on a slick road.
I can offer no commentary, as, despite my handle, I have never driven one (or ridden in one that I can recall). :P
Rocky
The tail slapper terminology seems to be track talk where drivers recover after more than 2 yaw bouts, where the back end comes out 15 to 45 degrees in alternating directions. The type of thing that never gets recovered on the street, too little experience behind the wheel. The system response was hard enough that I was thrown side to side in the seat while keeping the steering wheel fairly straight. What it demonstrated to me, and I've never been there again, is that the system will recover even big screw ups at speed 'IF' the wheels have adequate traction to work with.
As to the friend of a friend, I really agree that the car will go where pointed but having done some slide recovery, pre ESC, I know that you have to over correct which is going to point you beyond the best exit and then the question is how quick you get the wheel back, that is where you are right, he blew it. As to the rest of the story, I'd agree, there is always some ego saving involved with describing most accidents.
I too have been trying to dig around cases where ESC has been scape goated and at least at the track there seem to be two groups, those that turn it off and those that are trying to figure it out and learn to drive with it. Of the former, I've seen two Z06's in the wall in the last two months and of the latter we seem to be figuring it out. Now, for a fact those that got the wall were going much faster than I do on track and therefore were above 95% of limits, little margin for error, while I'm leaving much more margin at the speeds I'm going. It is a daily driver.
Just from a video I caught on a flight, there was a Race of Champions promotion in France last December with lots of related action and Playstation as a sponsor. Professional drivers from various countries competed in several cars as teams and as individuals, great driving. In addition, there was a winner of the virtual driving game (18 and up) that got a few laps in the least overpowered race car in use (indoor track, slick surface). The kid put it into the wall hard at the first turn ending up on his head.
Then again, one auto magazine, did a comparison with a car and game comparison at Laquna Seca last year and the lap times were off by a big margin which might lead some to think they are learning more from the game than is fact. But I've heard from several that professional drivers use the best simulations, especially on tracks where they have little experience. It seems to be a mixed bag.
The cars in GT3 and GT4 will behave in ways that are astonishingly close to the way that cars behave in real life. Traction, rotational inertia, torque, power, turbo-lag, wind resistance and other factors have all been realistically modeled.
But engine roar, G forces, clutch and shifter action and other factors cannot be effectively simulated on a PlayStation (yet).
Not only are those factors missing, but I can't be the only one who read the post about the "kid" who wrecked a high-powered performance car and thought "duh. didn't see that coming".
Rocky
The cars you can build lean towards fantasy in terms of performance, but the driving mechanics are very realistic.
You can probably pick up GT3 for a dozen bucks at a bargain bin somewhere.
Rocky
As far as the ESC system not saving real screw-ups I couldn't agree more and the few I've seen on track that say they push to see what it will save are going down a one-way street to a repair bill. Learning how to drive without engaging the system to me makes lots more sense, turns out to be less expensive as well.
I'm planning to buy a new car and one of the cars I'm considering is '07Camry.
I'm considering either base CE or LE model. The price difference between CE and LE is about $1000, LE has some extra convenience stuff but I think I can live without it. In my neck of woods, the base model is not offered with stability control. So I have to get at least LE model for this option. This stability option is $650, which makes the difference between the two models about $1600.
I've never driven a car with Stab control but I think it would be helpful especially during winter here in midwest. But is it worth extra $1600+? My current car has only ABS(front-wheel drive) but I never had any major problem driving in snow. So my question is what is the maximum price are you willing to pay for the stability control?
TIA
The LE has remote keyless entry -- do you think you can live without it? I couldn't, now that I'm so used to it. The LE's standard power driver seat is also nice, but the CE's seat is still manually height-adjustable.
You may want to check with one or more dealers to see if any LE 4-cylinders with stability control are actually available in your area. Toyota tends to "bundle" options together in different combinations for something like 12 regions in the US. It may be next to impossible in your region to obtain a basic LE with only the stability control option, even though on paper it's supposed to be available.
This is what I ran into when I wanted side airbags on my '04 LE 4-cylinder. I ended up taking a sunroof, a floormat/trunk mat set, and a cargo net in order to get the side airbags (now standard of course). I really like the sunroof now, but at the time, I wasn't so happy about the price premium ($750 invoice, as I recall).
When I bought my '05 XLE a year later (see my profile for explanation), I was able to buy one with ONLY the side airbags (didn't even have floormats).
just got a minivan..Odyssey...and it has ESC...with a defeat button. We leave it on...since it is for my wife and kids...and will help keep them out of trouble...
But like you said....learning how to drive......is most important.
Have fun at your track days with your vette !!!!
Randy
Thanks and I expect to enjoy another day Friday at Thunderhill, Willows, CA with about a half dozen Vettes and probably 60-80 other track junkies. You don't go out this time of year unless you really have the bug. As to the ESC, it might be interesting. The car now has 50k+ miles and recently I had service codes that come and go and the dealer can't duplicate, so I might end up with the system off. Should keep me very safe and sane.
Then I would be more inclined to take VSC.
In regard to the question about helmet/head, one's head is worth more than any amount. But you would buy a super-duper ultra-safe helmet if it costs $1Mil? how about $100k, $10k, $1k, 100 bucks? It's all about personal choices, but I was just asking whether extra $1600 is worth an additional safety due to VSC.
Randy
And that 35% reduction is for cars; for SUVs, which are more rollover prone, the reduction is something like 65%.
The vast majority of rollovers, by the way, are single-vehicle events.
Thank you all for your comments.
Just curious. If this option is that good, how come it is not more common?
Can anyone estimate how long it took for airbags to be more less standard? VSC costs less than airbags costed.
It's not common in the US because people don't demand it. It's more widely available in Europe. GM has promised standard Stabilitrak (but no standard side airbags) on all their models by 2010, and on all their light trucks by 2007. Right now, on their cars, they only offer it on models with prices around $30,000 and above. It's optional on many Dodge cars, and used to be an option on the Ford Focus, but is no longer offered on any Ford car except the Lincoln LS. Shame on them!
It's standard on nearly every European car--I think the Jetta value package and Mini Cooper have it as an option. Toyota offers it on many of their cars, Honda has it on all their trucks, Subaru doesn't offer it very widely, and Hyundai and Kia seem to be including it on their new models. It's very hit and miss!
I think all SUV's sold in the US will have stability control by model year 2007. It's being offered in more and more standard cars, so I figure within 5 years, it will be an anomaly to see a new car without it.
Comments about ABS and ESC in mid-article are most direct I've seen.
Another article about GM getting training on ESC by Bosch:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/31/002574.html
This is a different system than the GM/Delphi brake systems in most of the rest of their fleet. Works the same but different gyro sensor.
Good post pal.
Rocky
Corvette gave a good answer -- frontal airbags were mandated; this is not yet true for stability control.
It's only recently that the real-world benefits of stability control became clear. People were skeptical because antilock brakes were supposed to lead to a reduction in crashes, injuries, and deaths, but there was no significant change.
But stability control (which of course includes antilock brakes and traction control) really works!
Problem is that most people still aren't aware of the benefits, it's still rather pricey as an option (gotta get the leather or sunroof instead), and manufacturers aren't anywhere near agreement on what to name it.
In the early days of antilock brakes, we had ABS and ALB as acronyms, the latter used by Honda. Soon, everyone settled on ABS. No such agreement is in site for stability control, which in my opinion should be called electronic stability control, or ESC.
I thought all 2006 cars were supposed to have flat tire monitors, but if memory serves, there are several models that don't have them.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/safety-recalls/government-rollover-tests- - -405/electronic-stability-control.htm
Two real background items. Also I looked for the following:
www.esceducation.org/about_esc
But, seems it doesn't work any more. It was a joint funding effort by Conti-Teves and Bosch to get out education on ESC but seems it much have fallen through.
There is more data at both Conti and Bosch.