Stability Control, are you ready for it?

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Comments

  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Yes, if you keep the same relationship between the fronts and rears you should be fine.

    I think that was the service tech's point, there was really nothing they could do.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6447171.stm

    It seems to ignore that like any system it is the driver who
    will optimize how it functions. Having driven ESC cars on
    road courses for four years, it doesn't make you go faster!
    It does limit the mistakes but at the cost of slowing you
    down from what is possible. If you are absolutely smooth it
    will let you get right to the edge but any bobble and it
    comes into play and that slows you down, the more off the
    optimum you are and it slows you more. Actually it doesn't
    limit the mistakes, it limits the consequences of mistakes.

    All that said, I too agree that it would be a mistake in F1.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I'm one of those who don't want it as a mandatory device. I've never spun on a public road in my life and I don't see why I should have to pay for something of dubious benefit. At least airbags have been proven to save lives, but ABS has not, and I doubt SC will either. I don't think I've ever engaged ABS on my car either.

    These devices should be incentive based, not regulatory, I think...like give someone a discount on insurance rates if their car has SC.

    On the other hand, if someone can show me that it didn't cost me anything to have SC, I'd take it....right now, when I was shopping for new cars, it was a $500 option, and I wouldn't pay that for it, especially not on a sports car of all things.

    If they have to make it mandatory, do so on inherently unstable vehicles that are known for treacherous handling, like semi-trucks or jacked up 4X4s.
  • teamyonexteamyonex Member Posts: 42
    Both of my cars have stability control, and it makes the vehicles trecherous, downright dangerous, on slippery roads. If there is snow or ice, stability control MUST be turned off, or else at the slightest bit of wheel slip, the whiz-bang computer kicks in and won't let the driver do anything except sit there without any contol, skidding in a straight line: no throttle. The manuals do advise the SC to be turned off under slippery conditions, but it took me a couple of close calls to get that far. Stability UNCONTROL.

    Another point to ponder is how the best lap times and slalom times are always achieved with SC turned off.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,192
    From what you describe, it sounds like you're attempting to drive your vehicles extremely aggressively in snow/ice conditions. Stability control is particularly effective in snowy and icy conditions, especially when there is good traction at the front wheels (they're not on ice), but there is poor traction at the rear wheels (they are currently over snow or ice)--stability control intervenes to keep the car from spinning. In my experience, with stability control turned on, if I encounter a slippery spot, I can either let off the throttle and attempt to regain traction from a dead stop (or close to it), which is the same thing I would do if the car didn't have SC, or I can just wait about one second and allow the computer to modulate the brakes and throttle, at which point, the car goes exactly where I intended it to go (this is at extremely low speeds).

    Lap times are higher with SC disabled because a highly skilled driver can better predict the vehicle's dynamics, especially on dry pavement. I wouldn't mind turning it off on dry pavement, but on wet or icy pavement, I'd rather have it turned on.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Maybe your car just has a bad system. My wife's ESC on her VW worked well for her all last winter. The only time VW advises to turn it off is if you are plowing through deep snow and want the wheels to spin, VW does not say to turn it off under other slippery conditions.

    A co-worker has a Honda minivan with ESC and admitted to me that this, without even having AWD, gave him more control in slippery conditions than his 4 wheel drive vehicle he has always bragged about.

    Another point to ponder is how the best lap times and slalom times are always achieved with SC turned off.

    By professional drivers under controlled conditions on dry pavement. Try that test with the average driver and/or on wet or icy pavement or pavement with random patches of ice and you might see much different results. Also, when they do tests like that is it just one run or do they run it multiple times under gradually higher speeds? In the real world when something unexpected happens, you don't get to do trial runs.
  • analyticangelanalyticangel Member Posts: 83
    The advantage of it being mandatory is that the dealers wont be able to overcharge to stay competitive The actual cost is around 100.00 for a car with ABS

    It has been proven to be more "than dubious benefit"
    I dont get it the logic of your statement

    " I've never spun on a public road in my life and I don't see why I should have to pay for something of dubious benefit."

    That is like saying I never had an accident therefore I dont need a seatbelt

    I am glad that you never needed it but if you do you would be pleasantly surprised

    I have it on my 05 Avalon It does not have an on off switch and there is no warning by Toyota in "slippery conditions'
    Quite the opposite

    Mine engaged once and saved me from an accident NO DOUBT

    I live in So Fla frequent rain and wet roads
    While driving at 50mph a woman attempted to change lanes into me Instinctively I hit the brakes I was in right lane she was in left and I had no where to go . The back of the car started to fishtail I felt the vsc kick in car recovered and I avoided an accident

    Worth every penny I paid

    Just bought my son a Sonata as it is equally equippped to the Camry ESC included as standard and 5000.00 less

    Nowe there are many examples of road tests on news with or without ESC results to me are impressive
  • teamyonexteamyonex Member Posts: 42
    Extremely aggressive... that's HILARIOUS. 30+ years of driving without so much as a parking ticket EVER. You amuse me: I drive like a grandma. Why do the manuals instruct the driver to turn the SC off in snow and ice? The vehicles I'm referring to are Porsche and Range Rover.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 232,973
    The manuals only state that you should turn it off if you are stuck in snow and ice... No manufacturer suggests that you should turn the system off, otherwise.

    Shifty.. if you haven't spun a car on a public street, then you must have been a very good teen-ager.. or you weren't trying hard enough.. ;)

    And... if you've never engaged the ABS on a car, then you obviously don't live where there is snow and ice.. If you've ever locked up a wheel while braking, then you've been at the point where ABS would help you..

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  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    ESC is good, those that don't want to admit it now will down
    the road. Problem is that like ABS people don't know how it
    is different from what they are used to. 'Everyone' knows
    to steer into a spin, problem is that when done in most
    cases it results in too late a reaction and the spin goes
    in the opposite direction and is never recovered. That is
    the part nobody mentions.
    With ESC you don't want to over correct as most would do,
    you want to just steer where the best 'exit' is located and
    the car will get you there. It is different and there are
    lots of forums on the web with all the post mortems's about
    learning ESC that resulted in an accident. Just like ABS,
    don't pump, hold firm, the common wisdom about ESC will be
    developed over time and some will complain that it didn't
    work like 'I was used to' along the way.
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Shifty, you should take an ABS car to the track some time,
    a must to bed in the brake pads in advance and down freeway
    off ramps is a perfect place to test ABS ...
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    "The actual cost is around 100.00 for a car with ABS "

    Problem with cost is that as with all other things, 'it
    depends'! The main sensor, a gyro, cost the auto companies
    something north of $50 several years ago and in some cases
    just shy of $100. But that has gone down with volume into
    the below $50 range, I think. Then you add the software
    to read the sensor, and send inputs to the ABS along with
    some systems that have 2 gyros, and or several accelerometers
    and I'm betting the better systems cost north of your $100.

    Then again, the development costs are now getting spread
    across close to 15 millon units worldwide which will grow to
    over 30 million in a few years. Not a major per unit cost
    driver. If it's not down to under $100 now it will be soon.
    Randy
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's a difference between passive and active safety controls. SC is not like a seatbelt or airbag. The reason I've never spun out on public roads is due to my diligence, not the crappy cars I drove for so long. I've skidded and slid but never lost control, neither in cars or on motorcycles. Think of it like Alaskas bush pilots. The best ones never crash. Only the hot dogs do.

    Besides, the argument is moot---as long as I don't have to pay extra for it, SC is fine with me---as long as I can turn it off. I won't buy a car with intrusive, overly-sensitive mandatory SC that you can't disengage. No way, never, ever.

    I'm happy with ABS because I am never aware of it. Someday I may need it--fine, I'm glad it's there. Hopefully not on gravel however.
  • punkr77punkr77 Member Posts: 183
    I haven't owned a car with ESC, but it's high on my want list for my next vehicle. I do have traction control on my Mustang and have experimented around with it by going over the same gravelly area and goosing the throttle with it turned on and off. Turned on, a little fishtale and off I went. Turned off, I spun 90 degrees to the left. Was kinda creepy even expecting it.

    I think the problem many have with ESC and other "electronic aids" is that no training comes with them. During an actual emergency is NOT the time to learn how they work/react. And most people never induce them to do their thing beforehand to get a feel for them. How many owners actually take their cars to a deserted large parking lot during a storm to see how their car reacts pasts its limits?

    Another problem is that every safety device seems to push people to riskier behavior because they add a little more feeling of invincibility. For example, people with 4WD are more likely to go out in the ice and drive faster on it because they think their 4WD will keep them safe. From my 500,000 miles driving as a truck driver, I always knew when to pull off the road during winter weather: whenever I saw pickups and SUV's in the ditch. When I started seeing cars in the ditch, I knew I should have shut down a few exits back.

    Oh, and unless you're doing it on purpose, any skid or slide is a loss of control.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Up until last year I avoided my wife's car in the winter. She has ABS as does the car we bought for her mother. Like you I have resisted paying for something I never felt I needed and ABS was one of those somethings. However we have down sized this year and I was forced into driving the Focus this winter. The method for getting down the rather steep hill leading to one of our major roads out of town has always been simple. Slow down to a crawl in first and use the parking break to keep the car going slow till I got to the bottom of the hill. That turned out not to be the best method with the ABS car. The first time I got up to much speed I mashed on the break intending to pump and adjust like I did with a non abs car and got the dickens scared out of me as I heard a growl and a pulsing from my break pedal. The car went straight more or less but the sound and feel were totally alien to me. Two weeks later I had my mechanic look at the breaks to see if they needed replacing. They did but that wasn't the cause of the pulsating and noise. That was normal ABS I was told. You don't pump and you are supposed to drive the car while you try and stop. Once ABS is engaged no amount of extra pedal mashing will decrease the stopping distance, you simply trust the computer. I also discovered that when you replace the rear break drums most often you need to replace the ABS sensor ring and if that is necessary it is $70.00 a wheel. I now at least know how it is supposed to work it is just hard for me to put all of my faith in the system. If our car would have been an automatic it could have been equipped with Skid Control as well. That option didn't come with the manual so while all the other bells and whistles came on the car I passed on that. I wonder if mandated skid control will effect other cars in manual form as it did in the 2001-2002 Focus?
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,192
    Ford no longer offers AdvanceTrac on the Focus in the US because few people bought it. Also, their recently introduced cars like the Fusion, Mustang, and F-150 don't have it. There is no technical limitation that prevents anyone from offering stability control with a manual transmission--many cars currently do offer it, and I doubt if they will stop selling models with a manual just because of the ESC requirement.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The 2007 MINI I'm thinking of buying has SC with 6 speed manual...but they charge you $500 for it unless you buy the Sport Package for $1,400.

    I suppose coupling SC to the Sport Package makes sense although if you spin out a MINI I'd have to say that's quite an accomplishment. Maybe a celebrity will do it on TV, like with the Enzo :cry:
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    stability-control is a must-have feature for any vehicle my wife or kids will be driving. i prefer it too.
    with our 2001 volvo V70, it only engaged once during the lifetime of the car. it saved us from sliding sideways/off-the-road/into-a-tree, at about 20 mph. that one incident made it worth the $1000 "DSC" option price on 2001 V70.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't wish to be annoying (no REALLY I don't :P ) but how could you know if in fact your own skill would have also prevented you from hitting the tree? I mean, you can't give SC credit automatically, except for cutting down your anxiety level.

    With an air bag that has deployed you can give it credit for preventing injury since we can presume the bag was softer than your steering wheel.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 232,973
    You are correct.. you can't really know if it's saved you, or not..

    But.. we can assume that the SC is better at pulling you out of a skid than you are.. and that there are skids you might never be in, if you had it..

    Unless you know of a way to brake just one wheel at a time.. :blush:

    Unlike others... I don't mind being annoying.. ;)

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  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    i have no doubt the stability control prevented a collision/sliding-off-road in that case -
    due to slight curve in
    the road, a really big crown, and icy conditions.

    even the most expert driver does not have the ability to brake just ONE of the rear wheels in order to straighten out the car. (this is what the DSC did in that particular case.)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wouldn't personally assume that at all. A skid is too complex and dynamic to assume SC has it all figured out.

    Keep in mind the dismal failure of AI all these years....don't discount the human brain.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    one just assumes:
    1). programmers have all the scenarios figured out
    2). the prior driving experience of the person behind the wheel doesn't collide with what the program is doing
    3). the human doesn't fight the automation
    4). there isn't a sensor or actuator failure
    5). the existance of the SC hasn't given someone a poor sense of situational awareness re: conditions and capability
    ((insert cautionary point here))

    i'm with you shifty.

    TC and SC isn't going to find traction where none exists.

    if the person isn't aware of the poor conditions, he / she is likely to be placing the vehicle and occupants at risk.

    probably the best thing people could do is: get excellent winter tires, maintain their vehicle properly, take some defensive driving courses and become a better driver, slow down, keep two hands on the wheel, avoid using the radio, cell phone, eating or drinking, etc.

    throwing automation / complexity at a problem caused by people driving in adverse conditions beyond thier capability and that of their vehicle may be a slippery slope with costs.

    it might "enable" people to become even poorer drivers, less aware, less mindful of vehicle and environmental conditions, etc.

    how many AWD SUVs do we see off the road in bad conditions vs. little cars? many people drive around with ABS problems, and the system defeated because of the cost prohibitive nature to repair?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 232,973
    SC can't overcome the laws of physics... but, one thing it can do is brake one wheel at a time.

    When one of you figures out how to do that, come back and tell me about it.. ;)

    It really doesn't matter about any one of you, anyway.. For the vast driving public, SC will be a great safety boon... Unlike ABS, it doesn't require the driver to act any differently than in a vehicle that isn't equipped that way..

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  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Agree, and there are robust studies out there that show that ESC really works -- saving lives and injuries, something that never really occurred for ABS, despite the latter's impressive performance on the test track.

    That's why the feds decided to mandate ESC. One study link here.

    I know that enthusiasts whine because it's an electronic "nanny" in their opinion, but the vast majority of the driving public won't even know it's there, just quietly going about its business.

    As for people taking defensive driving courses and becoming "better" drivers, it's just not going to happen. Why? Because everyone thinks they're already the best drivers out there -- it's all those other idiots that cause the crashes!

    Oh, and Shifty, I've also never spun out a car and lost control! I guess the closest I came was on an icy/snowy back road where my old rwd Volvo started to slide its rear end out, and I countersteered hard in the opposite direction, didn't catch the reverse skid in time, and ended up stopped almost sideways across the road! But I was only going 20-25 mph in the first place.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Playing devils advovate, studies show 40% fewer deaths with those people who drive with ESC. How do you explain that shifty?

    I've always had a problem with a study that compares something that hasn't happened(an accident)to one that has. As you stated earlier, how does one know their driving skills would have prevented the death in a vehicular accident as opposed to ESC?
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    which study exactly jipster?

    playing devil's devil advocate, how does one know that the accident involved the actuation of ESC? or is it people with cars with ESC vs. cars without ESC where the outcome was death?

    i mean, maybe the demographic re: vehicles with ESC and the people who drive them are statistically less likely to be in accidents period. does that speak to the technology as differentiator, the driver, the driving style, the likelyhood (or not) to speed, the likelyhood (or not) to drink and drive, .....
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I've always had a problem with a study that compares something that hasn't happened(an accident)to one that has. As you stated earlier, how does one know their driving skills would have prevented the death in a vehicular accident as opposed to ESC?"

    Well, the idea is to try to look at a large pool of drivers, isolate a single variable, and then look at accident/fatality rates. The studies I've seen attempt to compare the accident rates of vehicles that are otherwise identical (with the only variable being ESC).

    So, either we assume that ESC does have a real-world benefit, or we assume the really bad drivers have already killed themselves resulting in a lowering of accident statistics from year to year as the bad drivers are no longer in the pool.

    From my personal observation, I don't think there's any way that the bad drivers are driving themselves to extinction....so my conclusion would be that ESC does have real-world benefits.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    well, the idea is to try to look at a large pool of drivers, isolate a single variable, and then look at accident/fatality rates. The studies I've seen attempt to compare the accident rates of vehicles that are otherwise identical (with the only variable being ESC).

    i would tend to think that would add to the validity of the study, but practically, what vehicles would be involved in that study? and yet, one might say, people purchasing ESC (when it was an option) are more likely to be safety focused. therefore, the factors wouldn't be completely independant would they?

    i'd like to read the details of these studies you reference.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    The studies would compare the same vehicles (separated by a model year or two) with standard stability control vs. those without. Option take rates wouldn't be a factor for most vehicles, because typically take rates were very low when ESC was an option.

    Here'sa study link (again).
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    which study exactly jipster?

    Consumer Reports threw out that number in an issue about a year ago... siteing "studies". I've read the 40% and higher number used in this and other discussions as well.

    I think there are just to many variables to throw out a wild number like 40%. I've raised the "demographics" question before in this discussion as well. Until recently ESC has been an option on more expensive cars. Or, it is a safety option, that people who's first priority is on safety, will choose. People who prioritize safety will certainly be in fewer accidents.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You don't use vehicles where ESC was an option, or at least an option with a high percentage of takers.

    You look at vehicles with standard ESC and compare them with the same vehicles without (like the model year before).

    Again, see the IIHS link I gave earlier, or in the post below.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    One CR blurb references this IIHS.org study.

    That study says that the risk of fatal multi-car crashes are reduced by 32% and fatal single car wrecks by 56%.

    The 40% number involves all single car wrecks, not just the fatal ones.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    The sample size of those studies are such a small blip on the national radar screen though. It could be contributed to many different variables.

    Out of all accidents on our roads, what % would ESC come into play? Judging from what I've read a small %. What % of vehicles today have ESC...I'm gussing maybe 10%? Not enough info in my book to accurately guage real-world benefits. Though there are certainly some. I would like to see what these accident/fatality rates are in 5-10 years when most vehicles on the road are equipped with ESC.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 232,973
    I think the percentage is probably higher for fatal accidents..

    For instance, rollover accidents result in a high number of fatalities... ESC prevents these types of accidents by keeping the vehicle from leaving the roadway...

    Sure, fender-benders from inattention, or backing accidents in parking lots won't be helped by ESC.. and these are a large percentage of total accidents.. But, again.. these accidents are rarely fatal...

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Study by IIHS, studies of ESC in Europe and Japan,
    as well as a study by the U.S. National Highway Traffic
    Safety Administration ALL have reported similar results.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i have problems with that report. there's not enough specificity to use the numbers in an objective and valid manner. about all i think you can safely say is they performed some analysis and SWAGged some numbers.

    at one point the article admits that police reports indicate ESC was less effective in lower-severity crashes. now i wonder EXACTLY how they came to that conclusion.

    what if for example there's a fatality crash and ESC wasn't even involved? what if it didn't even activate? how are they making this determination i'd like to know.

    to know how and to the extent it is a differentiator, one would think one needs to analyze data captured before, during and after the crash showing that it activated (or not)..
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    This is my last message on this topic.

    I think you are over-analyzing. The studies were done in the same way that side airbags, frontal airbags, and decades before that, seat belts (when used) were found to be effective. And in the same way that ABS was found to be ineffective.

    Now consider this: the BUSH administration is requiring ESC. There is no way in Hades that this pro-business, Republican administration would foist such a regulatory mandate on a struggling car industry (domestic, at least) if there was the least bit of doubt in the validity of the studies. Also, instead of their usual carping and whining, the auto industry is embracing this regulation.

    By contrast, look how long it took the industry to accept frontal airbags -- they kicked and screamed all the way, and it took a Supreme Court decision (and mandatory seat belt use laws without sufficient teeth) to finally pave the way for their widespread, and now universal, adoption.

    Over and out.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Well, from what I understand it costs less than $100 to install ESC, while frontal airbags are much more expensive. Bush gets to look like a humanitarian at very little cost to big business.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    There is no way in Hades that this pro-business

    If it lowers the frequency of car wrecks, it'll be pro insurance business. ;)
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    " ... Unlike ABS, it doesn't require the driver to act any differently than in a vehicle that isn't equipped that way.. "

    kyfdx, Sorry but this isn't true. I've supported ESC
    since the start, goes back aways, but the fact is that most
    people overcorrect in a skid and if you are good and quick
    you can get out of a modest skid that way. If you do that
    with ESC you are going to end up hitting what you wanted to
    miss. The key to ESC is to steer where you want to end up,
    if the eyes find the "exit" then the hands will take the
    steering wheel there and you escape. Problem is that in a
    panic, most people stare at the tree or wall or other car
    in a spin and sure enough that's where they go with ESC.

    There are plenty of forum discussions about Vette drivers
    that tried the old approach and then complained that ESC
    didn't work after the crash. Most after having been told
    what they should have done have agreed that if they had
    known that they would have done it differently.

    BTW, I've got four years on race tracks trying to "Not" have
    the ESC engage, and I haven't always been successful. In
    addition I worked for one of the major gyro suppliers for
    over a decade and got lots of briefings about how the system
    has changed from the first intro in the early 90's by MB and
    the '97 Caddy, '98 Vette introduction. The reason I got a
    2002 Corvette, amazing system.
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Shifty, if you want to see the system work and how to avoid
    it, feel free to look up the Blue Vette at Sears Point, May
    5/6 NASA event. With a helmet you are welcome to ride, as
    long as you sign the NASA waiver.
    The system engages when the driver is not smooth,
    objective be smooth. However, I have two cases in about
    80+ days on track where I was glad that the system took
    over, once at Sears Point doing about 100mph through turn 1.
    I'm a believer! Problem with wholly depending on human
    skill is that no matter how seldom it happens, bad things
    do happen, the system is pretty nice to have at those times.
    Randy
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    thank you for your post. and you are commenting on educated drivers who have been briefed on proper operation of the system and how to have it aid them (or rather how not to have their actions collide with the automation).

    the general public will not be so well trained and knowlegeable. just as has been with ABS, people were trained to pump their brakes rather than stand on them. so with ABS, they will often not benefit by the technology.

    interesting to me, i've read a report, anecdotal of course on the forums here of a van driver having ESC activate because of a failed sensor (yaw or stearing angle? i don't know) and ending up IN THE ONCOMMING LANE of traffic. I presume the manufacturer may need to work on the yaw sensor and steering angle sensor validation, but I don't know.

    could you theorize on how a failed sensor ended up modulating the brake for 1 tire, and putting someone into harms way?

    another few anecdotes a year or so back on people entering corners at a good rate of speed to have their engine output de-rated, i believe by ESC.

    these are two reasons i'd like to be a late adopter of the technology. besides increased complexity and cost to diagnose and fix, i'm also concerned about the steering inputs colliding with the ESC programming.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 232,973
    I think in the majority of cases with ESC, the skid never happens....

    The ESC is activated, but the car never leaves the driver's intended path, so no correction necessary...

    If you get into a skid with ESC, I agree... I'm not counting on the driver to do the right thing..

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  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    the general public will not be so well trained and knowlegeable.

    The ESC studies have shown reductions in accidents and fatalities for this untrained, unknowledgeable, general public.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    i have not read the studies that support your claim. if you've got one that provides specifics w.r.t. how the reductions were estimated or projected (and i highly doubt actually counted) from a large statistically significant sample, please let us know.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,102
    mr. waltrip, he has plenty of other troubles, but i am assuming the vehicle 'had' esc.

    from jayski:
    Michael Waltrip Charged After Vehicle Accident Saturday: UPDATE: Statement from Waltrip: #55-Michael Waltrip is charged with reckless driving and failure to report an accident after a crash on Molly's Backbone Road in Catawba County. The Highway Patrol says Waltrip was driving about 70 miles per hour in the 55 mile-per-hour zone when he went off the right side of the road in a curve around 1:50 a.m. Saturday. His car then traveled back across the pavement and off the left side of the roadway, sliding sideways and striking a utility pole as it overturned. The car then rolled over and came to a rest on its side. Troopers said a witness saw Waltrip crawl out of the vehicle and leave the scene. When a trooper went to his home around 2:30 a.m. no one was there, but when he went back at 8 a.m. he found Waltrip, who admitted he'd fallen asleep at the wheel. Waltrip, with scratches on his face and some deep cuts on his finger, spoke with Eyewitness News about the crash. He said he was on his way home to Sherill's Ford from Charlotte. "I was almost home. I relaxed a little bit and ran off the road," he explained. "I woke up with gravel hitting the car and I tried to correct but it was too late. The seasoned driver says he instinctively got out of his car, and then decided to walk home because he often runs the route and was only a mile away. Waltrip will be in court in Newton on May 14.(WSOCTV.com)(4-10-2007)
    UPDATE: Michael Waltrip was uninjured in a single car accident Friday night near his home in Sherrills Ford, N.C. The 43-year old was returning from Charlotte, N.C. when he fell asleep at the wheel within a mile of his home and ran off the road, striking a telephone pole. “I am really embarrassed about the accident, but I feel fortunate that I wasn’t hurt,” said Waltrip. “For 25 years I have had a great driving record. I consider myself to be a courteous and safe driver on public roads. I never expected to fall asleep behind the wheel of a car.” The North Carolina Highway Patrol ticketed Waltrip for reckless driving (admitting to falling asleep at the wheel) and failure to notify authorities of an accident in a timely manner.(MWR PR)(4-10-2007)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If it was a 2000 or newer Land Cruiser it should have stability control (and it looks pretty new from the photos around the net - pic link).

    Here's the Autoblog story.
  • corvettecorvette Member Posts: 10,192
    Amazing he walked away...

    I wouldn't call it a failure of ESC. If you fall asleep and the car's left the pavement when you wake up, there's not much hope. The main capability of ESC in preventing rollovers is in keeping the car on the pavement to begin with, mainly by helping prevent skids. Once it's left the pavement, it can "trip" on something, and roll over, even with ESC (although the newest systems are designed with rollover mitigation in addition to standard skid control).
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