Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

Not a 911

Another uncheap diesel, and an unloved model to boot

qbrozen

that's a purdy porsche.

Mr_Shiftright

Porsche 912 -- "VW performance at Porsche repair prices"

BERKELEY -- these are cool cars, I'd love to have one, but ahem, putting in a Honda engine and transmission without a reverse gear wasn't all that GREAT an idea.....I think original engines were Royal Enfield?

I have no idea how to engineer a reverse gear...maybe something electric???

I also have no idea how Berkeley did it in the first place....hm.....this requires further study.

lemmer

At 750 lbs, couldn't you just stick your foot out of the door and leg the car backwards, assuming you avoid any large hills?

qbrozen

VW performance at Porsche repair prices

hmmm... so is it a porsche engine with VW power levels? Or is it a VW engine? If the latter, why would it cost more?

And, either way, shouldn't it at least handle better?

lemmer

Porsche people will argue all day long about the handling question, but the 912 does have less weight out back, and that couldn't be all bad.

The late '60s 912 does have a pure Porsche engine that puts out 90 hp, I think. It is very similar to the 356 engine. You still need a Porsche mechanic and Porsche parts. You might be better off with a pumped-up Bug engine in the back, but don't tell Shifty I said that.

qbrozen

90 hp is more than twice the output of the VW bug of the day. So what VW had similar performance?

note: i'm very uneducated in german vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, you could build a pumped up VW big-bore engine to kick a 912s butt. Not sure how you'd install it in a 912. The 912 engine has a rear engine mount that bolts to a special third member engine case. The VW has no such thing so I don't know how you'd support the engine in the rear. I guess you just let it hang off the transmission?

The 912 engine IS a Porsche 356 engine. It's okay at 90HP, the car moves along just fine, but you do have to stress it to get anywhere and at $8,000 on up for a rebuild, one has to wonder what the point of it all is.

Nothing worse than a car that looks fast but isn't in my book.

lemmer

How about the later VW 412 engines? Aren't those similar to the later 912E engines? Will those go in a 912 easily?

My FIL keeps telling me how his 912 race engine puts out 150 easy hp, and that it is very reliable and has good torque. His builder is a 356 racecar expert, but I still silently doubt the claims. If he has 944 type horsepower in a car that weighs 600 lbs less, why do they leave him behind on the straights?

Shifty, do you have an estimate how much hp a 356/912 vintage racer can put out reliably?

fintail

I want some of what this guy's smokin

Uuhhh...who on the planet is restoring these?

andre1969

I want some of what this guy's smokin

Well come on over Fintail, because I think one of my roommates smokes the same stuff. He used to have a Granada, swears what a great car it was, and says he'd like to have another sometime! :confuse:

fintail

Does he also believe a mint one would be worth 15K?

Automotive quicksand

andre1969

he's not quite that naive! I remember he just said that if I ever find a nice Granada for sale at one of the car shows I go to, at a reasonable price, to get contact info for him.

Personally I don't get it, but I guess part of it is because it was his first car. Plus, I guess they are a good time capsule, representative of what was going on in the 70's. They're a good example of just how fake, empty, and full of meaningless fluff that decade could be.

And to be fair, I'm sure there are people who would question what I'd see in a 1979 New Yorker. Heck, I gotta admit sometimes I question it myself. :P

My buddy with the Mark V was asking me why someone would want to hold onto a Pinto, in reference to the 1978 Pinto that was in that movie shoot I went to over the weekend. But I guess just like how big car and small car people will always be diametrically opposed, maybe Pinto people and Mark V people will be, too!

Truthfully, I can kinda see the charm in both. The Mark V I think is a good looking car, and as far as pimpy cars go I think it's quite sleek and tasteful...much moreso than anything Cadillac was putting out at the time. But then the Pinto just has sort of an anti-status-symbol charm to it. Kind of reverse-chic, I guess? Heck, I wouldn't mind having one of those little portholed Cruising Wagons with the german 2.8 V-6. If I could fit in one. I've never tried out a Pinto as I can recall.

fintail

It's funny....I have no desire at all to duplicate my first car. I had a midnight blue 66 Galaxie 2 door HT, light blue interior, 390-4bbl. It was in really decent shape...but, it was big, mileage was horrible (8/12 IIRC), the carb was always being problematic...it took a lot of work (and all the money I had when I was 16) to keep it going. The fintail replaced it, and it amazed me how a car that was actually older was so much nicer of an experience.

I can see a Granada as being symbolic of 70s hilarity, especially if displayed with the laughable ad campaigns. But if I wanted a Granada, I'd go all the way and get a Versailles! I remember back about the time I started driving I looked at a Granada ESS with my dad...it had body color wheels, power everything including moonroof, black on black...it wasn't a horrible looking thing. They wanted maybe $500 for it as it needed some age related maintenance.

When I was about 9 or 10 my dad wanted to seek out a Cruising Wagon...I remember we test drove a couple. They were only about 10 year old cars at the time, so they weren't in bad shape. Of course, something like that wouldn't have been allowed in the driveway. I remember one in particular...black with blue stripes, round window on the side, it was really clean...they wanted like $1200 for it ca. 1987.

When I was really little, maybe 5, I remember my paternal grandma had a pinto, a baby blue hatchback. Even at that time, I thought it was really a bad car....probably through listening to my parents. She loved it though...replaced it with an early Cavalier. She liked that too, and had 4 other Cavaliers up to the time she stopped driving.

toomanyfumes

but is there any way a Rambler is worth over $16,000?
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/car/188808830.html

Mr_Shiftright

"but is there any way a Rambler is worth over $16,000? "....

Ah.......no.........

Porsche 912 Engine: The 356 powerplant is really hard to juice---it's really a too-developed engine already. The Porsche engineers did not leave much HP on the table. I suppose you could conceivably get 150 HP out of one with a big-bore, lots of head work, crank-fire ignition, headers, etc, but it would definitely be a "hand grenade" engine.

I mean think about it...150 HP out of a 1.6 liter pushrod engine? C'mon.....

I could ask the Porsche engine rebuilders in my neighborhood, they would know....

turboshadow

There are a couple of Pinto mailing lists around. They have a pretty devoted group of followers.

I always thought the Cruising Wagons were really neat, but I was 13 or so when they came out, so I guess you could call my judgement into question. I wanted to perform a Pangra conversion on one.

Turboshadow

andre1969

I'll admit that occasionally I'll get a bit nostalgic for my first car, a 1980 Malibu coupe, but in retrospect I don't think I'd ever want it back. I see them all the time at the swap meets at Carlisle. I think nowadays they're a popular car to rod, because they were about the smallest, lightest, body-on-frame car that GM ever made. Plus, the Monte Carlo has been done to death, whereas the 1978-81 Malibu coupe was comparatively rare and unique.

At the time, in the late 80's, it was actually the musclecar among my group of friends. But compared to a Pinto, '80 Accord 4-cyl Mustang, 4-cyl Fairmont, Cavalier, a '79 Sunbird, an '83 Stanza, Tercel, Escort, and a neglected '72 Dart that could barely go over 50 mph, my 115 hp V-6 Malibu didn't have to try very hard.

And while it seemed like a big, roomy car at the time, in more recent times when I've sat in them at swap meets and such, they just don't seem as big inside as I remember. I guess that's the whole "rose tinted glasses" thing?

Come to think of it, I replaced that Malibu with an older car that was superior in just about every respect...a 1969 Dart GT! It just had a slant six, but it was faster, got better fuel economy, more reliable, easier to work on, and with the right tires handled at least as good. Larger trunk, although it was shallower. It was a little narrower inside, but I'd say front legroom was actually a bit better than the Malibu was. Rear legroom was worse, but I could still fit back there more easily than I could in, say, a modern W-body. And the ride was a little worse. The steering definintely had that 60's car feel to it, with overboosted steering and no road feel, whereas the Malibu did have a much more modern feel to it. And the Dart had nonpower drums, compared to power disc/drums for the Malibu, but I had no trouble adjusting.

Now if I could get that Dart back, I would in a heartbeat. But in all honesty, probably not the Malibu.

lemko

A friend of mine had two of those Malibus - a 1982 sedan that was purchased new by his parents and had a 229 cid V-6 and a 1980 model he later got on his own with a 267 cid V-8. Both were that teal blue color with dark blue cloth interior. During the early '80s, the Pennsylvania State Police used these Malibus. Unusually enough, they all came with the factory sport wheels.

qbrozen

mine was a '79 CJ7. I DEFINITELY want one of those again!

I still have the windshield assembly (frame, glass, wiper assembly, and light bar) from that jeep, sitting in my parents garage loft for .... 15 years now! waiting for a worthy recipient.

andre1969

My grandparents had a 1982 Malibu wagon with the 229 V-6. They hated it. I didn't think the 229 was really that bad in my '80 coupe, but the wagon probably weighed about 300 pounds more, and by '82 the 229 was down a bit to 110 hp, plus probably had more emissions crap on it.

Their previous car was a 1972 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 350-2bbl. Hardly a powerhouse, but it probably explains why they had so much trouble adjusting to that weak Malibu. I remember Grandmom figuring out, on a hot April day about 2 months after they bought the car, that the back windows didn't roll down on it, and that really pissed her off. Once the ECU went out for the second time, they traded it on an '85 LeSabre which was powerful enough and pretty reliable, at least until the typical old/age neglect stuff started to set in.

I do remember seeing some '82-83 Malibu police cars around here, used mainly as county cars. I think the county mainly used Mopar F- and M-bodies, but some Malibus made it into the mix.

lemko

Actually used M-Body 1981 Chrysler LeBarons as their squads. Usually police cars were Plymouth Gran Furies or Dodge Diplomats.

lemmer

Really old school Corolla.

How much for a Johnson? What the heck does Celebrity Styling mean?

$5500 for a Daihatsu?

Same money for a Monza?

A Caprice for those of us who adore 24" wheels and the Simpsons.

andre1969

but that Johnson thing looks like it's based on an '85-era Camaro! At least, that looks like a Camaro dash and door inserts!

usually it seemed those neoclassic things were based on '83-86 Cougars, so it's kinda interesting to see one based on something different. Maybe "Celebrity Styling" means that they used some Chevy Celebrity components in it? :P Other than that, it's just the seller trying to hype it up I guess. I mean, it says "Superstar" on the beat-up pair of Adidas I'm wearing, but I'm not exactly famous. :shades:

andre1969

but doesn't that Corolla look like it's trying to rip off a Mustang II fastback? I mean, check out the mug shot of it, and the taillights. Even the profile seems a bit similar.

qbrozen

Daihatsu mantra for the severely reality-impaired:
Rare opportunity to own a vehicle rapidly increasing in value.

I'm a huge simpsons fan, but I would NEVER drive around in that thing! The fit and finish of the dash cover alone says volumes about the quality of the job here.
And just what the heck does "MF+G" mean??

Mr_Shiftright

I was listening to a comedian on Sirius radio talking about what he'd do if he had a billion dollars (#1. change his name legally to something truly disgusting and then give money to politicians and charities and make them announce where the money came from).....anyway, if I had a billion I'd buy and publicly crush cars like the Johnson, to try and save the world from bad taste....or I'd buy them all (or as many as I could find, offering a high price) and put all of them back on the market at the same time for $100 apiece. That should kill resale value even more. If I just attempted to destroy them, I might miss one or two and they'd be more valuable, thereby thwarting my evil plans.

andre1969

a demolition derby using nothing but Zimmers, Tiffanies, Johsons, Phaetons, and all those other neoclassic things that were based on regular 80's car?

au1994

I've always had a soft spot for Monza's for some reason, not a 5500 soft spot luckily.

I bet this thing handles like a dump truck with a V-8. I've heard horror stories about changing the rear plugs.

Mr_Shiftright

You just have to loosen the motor mounts and jack the engine up, as I recall.

I like the idea of a BAD TASTE DEMO DERBY! We could put steer horns on all the hoods and upholster the door panels in silver dollars. Not only might various drivers be gored during collisions, but upon impact clouds of silver dollars will be showered on the cheering mobs....this will outdo the Super Bowl in gladitorial excess.

fintail

I like the neoclassic demo derby too...great idea

"extremely rare" in that it still runs

Now this is a real SUV, love the snorkel

Another real SUV

I assume this is a black hole

Parts have to be impossible and I bet it's never fully sorted

lemmer

I've never understood what those Zimmers and such are supposed to look like. Are they trying to look like certain model vehicles, fit into a certain era, or what? I can't figure it out. All I know is that I've never seen one I liked.

qbrozen

that '70 IIA should be amended to read:
This one can be a daily driver if your daily drive does not involve driving over 50 mph for extended periods of time.

lemmer

I think that model of the Maserati was the most sorted of the model run. I suspect it is still a pretty crappy car and is overpriced.

andre1969

1977 Bonneville Brow-hamm. Doesn't seem like a bad price, and looks like it's in good shape. But alas, it has the 301 V-8 (Y-code in VIN) which is about 27,000 miles past its expiration date! :P

Mr_Shiftright

That's what makes me so livid when I see a Zimmer and such....they are a hodgepodge of different eras...pure styling chaos with no regard whatsoever for any kind of time-based, era-based, style-based harmony. It displays an appalling ignorance of car design. It looks like something designed in prison for a tattoo parlor. To paraphrase W.C. Fields: "It's a plumber's idea of The Great Gatsby".

andre1969

I think they're actually kinda interesting, in a twisted sort of way. The Zimmer to me looks like it's trying to emulate a 60's Toronado, Eldorado, and Riviera, all at once. Those other ones though, like the Tiffany, Johnson, etc look like they're just going for a circa 1932-34 look.

steine13

No surprise it still runs.
Buddy of mine has an '87 NA 5sp sedan that is a center bearing away from being a daily driver... as his commute is 30 mph or less, much like mine, he often DOES drive it to work.

IF you know your stuff, these are great cars. They do have their problems, to be sure, but they were built extremely well. Another friend has a whole collection of these, including an Avant of that vintage that he put a 2.5 l Volvo TDI into. He also has entire "quarter" suspensions powdercoated and ready to go hanging from the rafters in his garage...

And yes, the t q av 5sp is really rare....

-Mathias

fintail

Sadly, those cars too often fell into the hands of those who didn't know their stuff. They weren't able to take abuse and neglect like some other cars. I always thought those early avants were pretty cool looking, especially for the time...modern.

lemko

Have you ever seen the Zimmer Quicksilver based on the Pontiac Fiero? That car looks as if it's trying to emulate an early '70s Grand Prix.

british_rover

The 1968 IIA with the diesel is the most desirable of that group.

The 109 would be neat but the long wheelbase rovers are a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to drive without the brake and steering updates.

That 1964 Series II model is not only a black whole but it is not a 1964. It is a series II but it cannot be a 1964 as Series II prodution stopped in 1961.

http://www.landrovercentre.com/history/history_land_rover.htm

lemmer

Not a project, but thought this G35 was funny because of all the cigarette smoke in the pictures. I bet chimney-boy has some nice smelling cars for sale.

I sold my G35. I only have an RX300 and a Pilot now. I predict that I will die from boredom within two weeks.

qbrozen

I only have an RX300 and a Pilot now. I predict that I will die from boredom within two weeks.

Oh, come now. The human being is a resilient creature that can adapt to severe conditions. I give you 3 weeks.

british_rover

Wow you know you got a problem when you can't stop smoking long enough to take some pictures.

Never driven a pilot before but I sympathize with the RX300 ughh.

lemmer

I put some 18" wheels and tires from an RX400H on it. That helped a huge amount. I no longer fear going the speed limit on slightly curved roads.

I am going to look at this 944 Turbo today.

More info from an email:

The car is in good mechanical condition and doesn't need any repairs. I've owned the car for 10 years and kept up with all the maintenance. The timing and balance shaft belts have been replaced regularly. All oil leaks have been repaired. The last oil leak was the oil pan gasket which I replaced less than 10k miles ago.

Other repairs:
The A/C has been converted to R134A. The compressor has been replaced as well as the head unit.
The tires have maybe 10k on them and are Z-rated.
Brake Master Cylinder was also replaced.
I have replaced the clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder. I have not replaced the clutch, but previous original owner said it was replaced. Front seats were professionally recovered in a high quality leather look vinyl.

It is original paint. The car has never been wrecked (to my knowledge and I'm 2nd owner) and has a clean carfax. I've included pics of the major dings and sunroof where paint is faded.

lilengineerboy

For the car that gave rise to the Taurus and the Accord of the era I would say the styling was modern. All Quattros prior to the very late 80s (89 maybe) or early 90s were manual. IIRC it was a modified 016 transmission (from VW Rabbit/Quantum).
The 80s 5000 CS Turbo Quattro was rated at 150 or 160 hp, 0-60 was in the 8s somewhere and it got reasonable fuel economy. The cruise control never works because the plastic components weren't designed to stand up to that heat (climate control had similar maladies).
From a performance standpoint, the one to get is the '91 Audi 200 20 valve Avant Quattro turbo. It was a precursor to the S4 and S6 and a great motor to swap in earlier vehicles (a UR-Quattro perhaps).

Mr_Shiftright

the biggest downside to an old Audi, even a very nice one, is that they are maintenance-intensive and the parts prices are astounding. I'd get pretty sick of $500 power steering hoses and $1,000 headlights on an S4.

qbrozen

This '87 300E is pretty close to where I work. Ultra low miles ... but $5k is ALOT for a 20-year-old.

Boy oh boy, a $4k Civic with a blown engine, rust, bad paint, and a busted windshield! What a deal!

The pics make this CJ7 look SO clean that it makes me suspicious.

Arrrrgggg... i was pretty interested in this Supra until I got to the word "automatic."

Huh. Not a project, but that's a heck of a cheap lease. Probably one of those 10k per year deals.

too bad no pics of this Roadmaster. But, come on, "future classic"? HA! And can anyone here confirm 24 mpg?? I know GM is notorious for ultra-tall highway gearing ... but that still seems mighty optimistic to me.

Mr_Shiftright

CGM X HPL X HCF = AGM

where Claimed gas mileage is 24, X HPL (Human Propensity to Lie)= 1 (constant) X Hyperbole Correction Factor = .75 = your AGM or Actual Gas Mileage, or in this case 18 mmpg.

andre1969

According to the EPA website, the '92 Roadmaster wagon with the 350 was rated at 16/25. When they went LT-1 for 1994-96, they actually went up a bit to 17/26!

The 350 that they used in 1992 was a TBI unit that wasn't especially powerful...185 hp IIRC. But it was pretty torquey, something like 300 foot-pounds. And at a fairly low rpm. So it could move a lot of weight without struggling very hard.

Now if you took good care of it all these years and drove it fairly gently, I'd imagine 24 on the highway might still be attainable.