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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Engines from those dark days are tricky to analyze. Many had very low compression and/or really bad-breathing heads and intake.

    Of course, displacement still gives you torque of a sort, but these engines ran out of air pretty quickly once the revs went up, so by the time they shifted and wheezed up the next gear, a lot of time went by.

    Also I betcha many of them sported economy differential gears.

    The engineering at this time was very transitional. Emissions controls were mostly vacuum-mechanical, not computerized, and therefore lacked precision.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    What is funny is when you look at those numbers and then find out that an '07 Hyundai Elantra will pull 16.4@83.5, .8G on the skid pad, and some report a top speed of 122MPH. And get 30+MPG on the highway on regular unleaded.

    Ain't technology grand?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can thank Mr. Computer Chip for saving the piston engine.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Well, I certainly wouldn't drive our 2006 Elantra at that speed, especially since it's a "no pretense" economy car. It's primarily my wife's go-to-work car, but for $13,500, including TTL here in Illinois, it was a good buy last December as her Christmas gift.

    I can remember driving those mid-to-late '70s vehicles, choked by smog controls, still using single-barrel carbs, and fast pull-off automatic chokes. 2007 Toyota Camry owners think they have Drive-by-Wire hesitation issues, they should have driven some of those vehicles!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Well, I have never broken 100 in mine, but I will say that at high speed it takes a nice "set" and becomes very stable. Unlike a '75 Starfire I owned that would start lifting the back end from 90+. First time I ever believed that the lift on a wing comes from the air going over the curved part (top of fastback car) and not from the flat bottom of the wing (bottom of car with ground effects).

    Very spooky feeling to be running that fast and feel the back end start lifting, along with the accompanying instability. A properly designed rear wing is a good thing!

    :surprise:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    was 115 mph in a 1991 Civic rental car. Now granted, it took a while to get there, and it took a L-O-N-G downhill run (Cajon pass in California, where I-15 comes out of the high desert and descends into, like, the Valley, dude).

    The car actually felt pretty composed at that speed. I think the scariest thing about it was the mountains off in the distance. You know how, when you're driving along, big, far off things like mountains, clouds, etc, usually look fairly stationary? Well, even those tall, jagged mountains off in the distance seemed to be passing by awfully fast!

    Then I started thinking about how little there would be left, of both the car and me, if I wiped out at that speed, so I slowed down. :)

    I've had both of my Darts up to ~100. The '69, with its slant six, actually felt better at that speed, mainly because it had a fraction of the miles: 48K when I bought it, ~77K when it got totaled, versus the '68 Dart having 253K on it when I bought it. It didn't squeak, rattle, and buzz as much. And interestingly, while the '68, with its 318 V-8, would blow away the slant six in acceleration from a standstill, at, say 80 mph if you stomped it, there didn't seem to be much difference in power. I wonder if that's because the 318, with its 2-bbl, just wasn't able to suck in enough air for its displacement, while the slant six, even though it only had a 1-bbl, was better able to get enough air into its 225 cubes? Both of them also had the same rear end, a fairly mild 2.76:1.

    I know I've had my '79 Newport up to around 100, as well. It wasn't all that fast from 0-60, but it seemed to like fast cruising. Its speedometer was off in a major way, too. 88 mph actual speed would register as 73 on my speedometer, and I got the ticket to prove it! And when that thing registered 73, it felt like it was barely moving. The speedo only went up to 85, but it pegged pretty easily.

    My '89 Gran Fury, an ex-police car, would get up to 100 mph pretty easily too. It had a 2.94:1 rear, which is hardly extreme, but really seemed to let the engine do its thing better than those loafy ~2.4X rears that just seemed to hold the engine back like a caged tiger (or in the case of many 70's cars, a caged pussycat)

    I'm sure I've had my Grandma's '85 LeSabre up to around 100, as well. It had an 85 mph speedo, but it would get there deceptively fast. It was a quiet car, and in overdrive it's effective gear ratio was like a 1.8X:1, so the the lack of a roaring engine combined with all the sound deadening lulled you into thinking you were going a lot slower than you were.

    My Intrepid's made it to ~100 mph a few times, as well. Only thing though, is that if it encounters the least bit of load, like an incline, it'll downshift and it's suddenly pulling about 5,000 rpms. I know it can do that with no trouble, as the redline's about 6500, but I'm just not used to cars having to rev like that, so I don't like it!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I kinda like that Plymouth Sapporo. If I had the time and the ambition, and the dude gave it to me for free, I'd take it and try to do something with it. Although that something might end up being just using it as a parts car to use if I found something nicer.

    I've heard that these can take a Mopar smallblock under the hood without too much trouble.

    And I never thought I'd say this, but I actually kinda like that little '76 Datsun pickup. I'm sure I'd hate it from a driving experience, but it looks like it has a pretty big bed, like it could hold more volume than most of the suppposedly midsized pickups of today! Unless it's just that the cab and front end are so tiny that it makes the bed look bigger? I kinda like the dashboard...IMO it looks faintly like the dash in my '76 Grand LeMans.

    The door has an interesting little jig in it. Makes me think of the '60-61 DeSotos and Chryslers, where the crease for the fin started in the front door. It doesn't line up with the bed, though, so I wonder if the original bed has been replaced with something else, or if it's just an older design with an updated bed but carryover doors?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    With that Datsun truck, how unusual is it that it has an automatic???? It must be slower than creeping death.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They weren't too bad actually...the engine is a pretty peppy OHC that winds up nicely. Remember, in the 70s Japan was about 40 years ahead of the Americans in engine design. Also, it's a very light vehicle.

    That truck looks great. I'd buy it in a minute if it were closer to me. That thing will run for the next 50 years. As for the dented fender, you can unbolt those in 15 minutes and buy a new one to put on.

    Good find fintail, one of the best deals yet you've posted!

    SAPPORO: You know sometimes a man has to take a deep breath, unscrew the license plates, chisel off the VIN, call the city refuse department, and walk away. (just kidding...do it right and haul it to the recycler).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    have a 3-speed automatic or just a 2-speed? I don't think Honda had a 3-speed automatic until 1980, but perhaps Nissan and Toyota were ahead of them in that regard?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    a '76-77 LeMans, even a junky one in a not-so-nice color, will get me excited pretty easily. But this 1976 Sport Coupe on eBay just leaves me kinda cold.

    First off, I don't like the color, and that interior has done that 70's thing where all the different materials have faded to different colors over the years, and the hard plastics are starting to turn brittle and powdery in places.

    And for something that supposedly only has 45,000 miles on it, underneath the hood ain't too pretty. On the plus side though, it looks like it has an 8-track player! :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh yeah, Honda didn't even have a proper torque converter is some of their models...you had to shift manually from Low to High.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    man, that datsun would probably have been a much better buy than my mazda. i'd be wary of the automatic, but i think the advantage of not having to get it inspected (classic plates) would outweigh any reservations I may have.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Those automatics were pretty good as I recall. Best thing would be to have it all checked out, and drop the trans oil pan and see if you can spot little sparkly things in there.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    even if it blew, that would just give me an excuse to convert to a manual. :)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah as long as the manual trans. is hydraulically operated and there's a mount for the clutch pedal. If you have to get into welding and linkages, that gets stickier.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Yeah, I don't think that Datsun bed has been replaced, it's just an odd design. Hell of a deal for a little junk hauler, I think. You won't tow an obese 40ft boat or a 5th wheel or your 59 Caddy with it, but as a little hauler, that's almost no money. If I had a house on a little piece of property and had to move stuff now and then, I'd be on it too.

    A friend of mine's father had a Chevy Luv that reminded me of that thing. He bought it new and drove it til 2003 or so. I guess it wasn't fit for driving over 60mph.

    That Pontiac looks like it sat out in the sun for years.

    Do people really drift these?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Do people really drift these?

    Not really, but it's cheaper than an AE86 Corolla.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    people set those things adrift at the edge of the forest and let mother nature reclaim them. Maybe that's the type of "drift" the seller meant? :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I can't imagine those things being able to get to the speed you need to corner to drift. Looks like the owner has already let them drift into the forest.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,683
    Good find fintail, one of the best deals yet you've posted!

    Much agreed. When I saw it I thought, "Wow, that might actually be something worth buying at the asking price!" Good to know it can still happen....

    You know sometimes a man has to take a deep breath, unscrew the license plates, chisel off the VIN, call the city refuse department, and walk away.

    This reminded me of my holiday weekend trip down to my grandparents' house in Chugiak. I was supposed to help my grandfather diagnose and fix a bad oil leak on his '76 Ranger, but it was miserably cold (-15F is quite cold for that area, this time of year) and he had the carbeurator off so I could not start it to observe the leak. There is so much oil grime on it that it is otherwise impossible to tell just by casual observation. My first suspect (and still prime) is a valve cover gasket, which would be an easy one to replace. Anyway, getting back on track, I spent a few minutes looking the truck over in more detail since I had never inspected it real close and I am to "inherit" it this coming spring. :surprise:

    I was disappointed to find that the cab of the truck has much more rust than I had previously supposed. It is not a lost cause, necessarily, but the rust points are tough, complicated spots to repair (most notably the lower front corners of both door jambs literally rotted through). When I get ahold of this thing, I am really going to need to scour it carefully to determine if it is worth putting any money into it (like the flat bed, licensing for highway use, etc) At least the mechanicals are in fairly good shape on it - I will probably need to rework the brakes, but the engine (390), tranny (auto), transfer case, and plow hydraulics are all in good working order.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    ?? What is a '76 Ranger?

    Is that as in a '76 F-series with the Ranger package?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,683
    :blush: Indeed. F250 Ranger.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    Ok. I wasn't really sure. It was the 390 engine that caught my attention when I was picturing a compact pickup. then went to wikipedia and found the compact didn't start till the 80s. Too bad. The 390 in a compact truck would be MUCh more interesting. ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    You'd have to swap the engine, of course. A nicely-built L16 might fit in there and give it some zip (the B210 weighed maybe 2000 pounds if that).
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,683
    Hahah, that it would if you were looking to use it for street racing!

    As it is, the 390 is the 3rd engine in that truck. The stock engine (a 360) threw a rod in '79 or '80, then my grandfather had a "buddy" put in a bored out 390 (making it low 4xx, though I cannot remember what he told me it supposedly was) with all sorts of performance mods on it. He had that engine about 6 months before it self-destructed, but he said the power that truck had was scary. His "buddy" was, conveniently, shipping out to another post right before the melt down and so was not able to be held accountable at all. Unfortunately, the current engine is not set up with the emissions controls originally installed on a '76 model. And, in Fairbanks the I/M testing is a requirement on all 1976 and newer model years. Figures. :mad:

    Though, looking at it a bit, it does not look like the F150 and up trucks were held to the same standards as passenger vehicles, so maybe I will not have too terrible of a headache on my hands.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    eh, IMHO, even a Civic is unreliable once it has 220k on it.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Whoah...Twelve THOUSAND plus in receipts?! Either the first two owners of that car were overly anal about preventive maintenance, or this car blows the myth about being able to take a Honda to 200K+ with little financial strain!

    But then, with all that work put into it, maybe it should be pretty reliable mechanically? I'm impressed at how well the interior has held up on it. I think the only thing that really bothers me is that rust spot on the right side. It's bad enough that the sheetmetal is actually starting to peel away from where it's welded underneath, so that could be getting into structural problems.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    I was thinking that included the original purchase receipt. *shrug*
    what did a new Si fetch back in '91?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The interior is what blew me away as well. Every Late 80s early 90s civic I have ever seen had the driver's seat left side bolster torn and generaly the bottom of the driver's seat is in rough shape too.

    ON that car it is nearly perfect. Makes me think the seat was replaced.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'd imagine that once you figure in the air conditioning and the power sunroof, I'd imagine this sucker probably went for about $12K new? I dunno...only reference point I have is a 1994 Civic EX sedan some friends of mine bought new. It was $16K, but was just about fully loaded.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    http://newjersey.craigslist.org/car/242413657.html

    if it was an S, I might be tempted to go over there with the $600 my wife gave me for my bday to buy a PS3. ;)

    I gotta wonder what he thinks on an alfa is "minor" though.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    It's sad how luxury sports sedans of yesteryear like the Alfa are pretty much worthless now. :sick:

    As for that Si, it's in very good shape for the year and mileage. When you break it down he spend about $830/year in maintenance, or $69/month. If it's been maintained as good as they claim it to be then you should be able to get another 100k out of it.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I was seriously considering buying one of these back in '91. IIRC, the base price (w/o AC, but included the sunroof), was under $11K.

    I didn't buy it because the Honda salesman told me that these were rated as "sports" cars by the insurance folks.

    I bought a red '91 Nissan Sentra SE instead for $10.3K; really wish I could have come up with the extra $2K needed at the time for a base SE-R.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    manual windows and door locks?? That surprises me.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    i like that catalina ... not for $5300, though.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Euro model...probably has a cloth interior too, along with the manual.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I don't see to many older MBZs with cloth. I think its because MB Tex wears like iron. I wonder if I can get that stuff for my couches. Get a nice Baker or Henredon couch and cover it in MB Tex and be set for life. Kids can rip tear kill or stain it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I don't see to many older MBZs with cloth. I think its because MB Tex wears like iron

    I think another reason might be that the cloth was an expensive option. At least, I remember looking up the options on a Benz in my 1985 Consumer Guide. M-B Tex was standard, while velour was roughly a $900 option, about the same as the leather. I'd imagine that if the price was about the same, most people would just go for the leather.

    I wonder if one reason that the velour was so expensive was that back then they would have velour'ed everything, including the door panels, side bolsters on the seats, etc? Where with the leather, I'd imagine stuff like the door panels and such was still the same material as in the MB-tex cars?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The '65 Catalina is cool, but definitely not at that price. And that 1927 DeSoto rat rod is interesting. VERY interesting, considering that the DeSoto nameplate wasn't introduced until 1929! :shades:
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    It's the weekend, so Craig's fills up fast. What do we think of these?

    "Rare" 1980 Celica Supra The pics make the car look like if has a general crappiness to it despite the claimed mileage. I highly doubt that those are leather seats or AM/FM wheels

    Performance mods are a good investment on a 6 cyl Mustang

    Decent looking Monte Carlo The seller appears to be forthright. Maybe you drive this now and restore it down the road?

    Pro Street Camaro This ad lists both a 455 Buick and a 454 Chevy. Which is it and if it's a Buick, who would put a Buick in a Camaro?

    Probably should have kept that bed until you found a new one Don't sell it like this now. Who wants to piece this back together for a 200,000 mile compact truck.

    Another nice looking Monte Carlo These cars have escaped the price inflation of most other cars of the era.

    Hot rodding base model Neons is a good investment

    How do you post an ad with 2 extra zeros in the price I'd have to say that $300,000 is agressive pricing for an old Suburban

    Call the junkyard and tell them to bring two haulers

    100,000 mile 944 with power steering problem
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    That "Pro Street" Camaro has a Buick engine in it. The only way I know how to tell at a quick glance is the distributor at the front of the engine. Chevies (and Pontiac and Olds) have the distributor in back.

    I think the Buick 455 was also lighter than the Chevy 454, so maybe the guy was trying to be weight-conscious with this car? And I'm not positive, but I think the Buick 455 was more of a low-end torquer than the Chevy 454. But this thing is a Camaro, not an Electra or a GMC motorhome. So I dunno if some of the Buick 455's advantages are really worthwhile.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    actually, other than the flattened seats and hideous 2-tone red interior, that celica does look pretty good on the outside. I mean, just the fact that the hatch isn't rusted through is a real good start. BUT... its an automatic! Bleck!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Cloth is very common in Benz Euro cars--or was common some years ago; remember Benz is not strictly a luxury make over there...you get lots of taxis, even Mercedes garbage trucks.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Would the cloth have been a cheaper option back then on the Euro cars?

    I'm looking at my 1985 Consumer Guide right now, which has reviews of both a W123-class and a a 190 class. In both examples, velour is a $1073 option, whereas leather is only $1083. I personally prefer cloth, especially if it's a nice grade like what Mercedes would tend to offer, but it seems to me cloth would be a hard sell as an option when leather is ony 10 bucks more!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    MB has used cloth AND velour, that might be some of the confusion. The cloth was offered for decades in kind of a semi-plaid pattern, although I think it has been updated in recent years. Cloth cars are pretty rare in NA, and haven't been seen in any numbers since the 60s. It's not a very special cloth, kind of like a cotton shirt material. I've seen cloth fintails, and that cloth is kind of like a soft denim. Cloth cars are very common in Europe.

    The velour (that I think isn't offered anymore) had a pattern that I believe dated back before the war, and I think died off with early W140 cars. It is very plush (but not in a velvet 70s American way), and I think is wool. I think it requires some kind of maintenance or cleaning. Those old option lists with cloth as a leather-priced option are actually meaning velour.

    The heirarchy has been cloth-tex-velour-leather. Leather wasn't common on Euro-market cars til maybe the 70s, so you will see a lot of old lux cars there with velour. Adenauers and 600s with velour are not uncommon. I think it dates back to the days where the chauffeur would sit on leather, and the passengers in high-end cloth. Tex was standard even on S-class in NA into the 80s. It's a pretty decent fake leather, it fools lots of people (just look at classifieds with tex cars claiming to be leather). I've seen many junkyard MB with nice tex interiors.

    And speaking of the door panels, yeah they will be MB tex...at least in older cars. Since the 70s MB has used door panels which are mainly molded hard and soft plastic with a little insert. The inserts tend to be leather, at least they have been in my W126 and in the C43. I think the top part of the door panels in old cars like fintails with leather might be leather, with a tex lower part. And in highline cars like W111 coupes and W112 300SE LWB fintails, they had kind of a molded armrest that was very elegant, and padded with leather.
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