Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemko

...I'd even attempt a retoration of that 1957 Chevrolet convertible is if the car belonged to my Dad and I had Bill Gates' money.

Mr_Shiftright

'68 Chevelle -- pile of junk! Where in the world did the number of $4,500 pop into his head for these miscellaneous assortment of ferrous oxide specimens? A show car version might net you $35,000 and to make this one a show car might cost you $75,000...so basically he should pay you $40,000 to haul it off his property.

Lancia Beta ---oh, dear, the car that gave once brave, once wonderful Lancia a bad name in America with this warmed over piece of re=badged Fiat scrap metal.

'57 Chevy -- or you could restore it if Bill Gates was your dad.

gsemike

It's a shame but even rare desirable classic cars sometime die. That is nothing more than a sorry pile of useless parts.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you have to weigh current value against current restoration costs, and if the two are wildly out of whack, that's the end of the story unless you are pretty foolish. Chevelles are not rare cars is the problem. If that mess of a car were a '57 Chevy fuelie, it'd be restored because the potential is perhaps 5X greater.

kapbot

Stupid mod.
Beautiful, IMO.
Not a project, maybe a crack smoker.
Seems pricey to me.
10 yr old cheapo-mobile in need of a new motor.. get real!
I like. Not sure about the price.
Nice vacation mobile, but subtract $1,000.
Gimmie a break!!

I would buy the Ford convertible in a heartbeat if I had the money. Ten year old Cavalier with a bad motor? Donate it and forget about it.
Real projects? let me know.

gsemike

From the Cavalier ad "I'm selling the car because I am no longer interested in the sport compact cars"

What does a Cavalier with plastic hubcaps have to do with sport compacts?

With the Focus, can't I get a brand new one for about 14 grand? There isn't a 40,000 mile Focus on Earth worth 16 grand.

With that CRX, maybe the price isn't that out of hand if it were to be used as a donor car. The body and interior looked pretty good and I see alot of the youngsters getting into these.

stickguy

yeah, that could easily become a nice project car 9assuming the rust really is minimal surface stuff).

I would bet, however, that the owner has a much better idea of how serious the engine is. Something catastrophic must have happened to it.

Still, Honda engine swaps are real common, so if you have the tools and ambition, might not be too hard to get a donor engine in it, or do a hot rod upgrade.

british_rover

Yeah that is just waiting to be a shell for a B18, B16, H22 etc honda engine.

lilengineerboy

Yeah that is just waiting to be a shell for a B18, B16, H22 etc Honda engine.

I totally concur but not if you cant register it because it really belongs to his ex-gf who still hates him because he hooked up with her sister. Okay, I watched Jerry Springer last night, but my point is, no title=parts car.

british_rover

Doesn't matter if it is going to be a track only car...

gsemike

Even if it's a track only car, no title = no way. The last thing that you need is someone pissed off about something showing up with a title to a car in your yard with the police and saying who knows what.

qbrozen

YIKES!!

the title pulled me in, then the pictures actually made me jerk my head back away from the monitor in shock and disgust.

qbrozen

Too bad he doesn't know how to write a description. I would say the price is high, but without a description, tough to know for sure. PLUS, I'd really prefer a GSL-SE.

qbrozen

Rally car for BR?

oohh.... darn. its an auto. ugh!

british_rover

Yeah auto is no good and neither is turbo.

I am actually thinking about Neons at this point. They are dirt cheap and we have a dodge dealer in our autogroup so we see cheap neons all the time.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh...Neons....when they first came out I thought: "Oh, wow...here's the American version of the Alfa Sprint coupe....cheap, fun and simple".

Little did I know they'd revert to base engine options and also forget how to keep a head gasket from grenading.

Old British Junk: these sellers need to realize market values here. These shabby piles of rust haven't a chance of being restored.

qbrozen

why no turbo?

british_rover

You can't start our rally racing with a turbo car. They won't give you a Rally license for a turbo car till you have X amount of driving experience.

You are forced to start out on 2wd NA motor cars for the first season or so then you can move up to turbo cars or turbo AWD cars.

Really though with the way the classes are setup a 2wd NA car is just as competitive as a 2wd Turbo car. You have to get AWD to put that extra turbo power down.

qbrozen

You have to get AWD to put that extra turbo power down.

Well ... that's all a matter of perspective. The way I see it, turbos aren't just for more power, they are for more power from a smaller, lighter package. In other words, you can either have a 3 liter NA or a 2 liter turbo and produce the same results. Maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed this is one of the reasons pro rally cars use them. They can keep the engine small and light while producing V8 power. So, likewise, for a non-pro rally, I would think having even a low-power turbo, like in a VW, for instance, would be preferrable.

jlflemmons

87 Cutlass Brogham

jlflemmons

'83 Cutlass Wagon

jlflemmons

"Look it up on KBB!" That's because Edmunds has the price $1200 below what he is asking. And the '03 is known for having clutch problems. '03 Tiburon GT

andre1969

but I like that '87 Cutlass Brougham. I actually came close to getting a car similar to that back in 1989 when I was in college. I had wrecked my '80 Malibu that summer, rear ending an early 80's Cavalier when the driver slammed on the brakes suddenly. She said she thought she heard a siren.

My Granddad took me to a couple of used car lots the next day to look around. I remember one car that I saw that I liked was an '85 Cutlass Supreme Brougham sedan. It was silver with a dark gray top, and had the Olds Rally wheels. It's amazing how those Rally wheels can transform a car...I swear they can make the most mundane piece of junk look good! It had a 307 as well, but I don't remember if it had a 3-speed or 4-speed automatic. I think that by that time, the 4-speed automatic was mandatory with the V-8, but I could be wrong.

In the end though, Granddad found a 1981 Malibu in the junkyard, same color as mine, and we got all the parts we needed for about $210. I forget how much they wanted for that '85 Cutlass, but at that time, in my financial condition, fixing the Malibu definitely made more sense!

I kinda like that '83 Cutlass Cruiser, as well. I occasionally toy with the idea of getting an old wagon to use when my pickup finally bites the dust, but with the kind of stuff I do, I guess a wagon wouldn't cut it. If nothing else, it would cut down on people asking me to help them with chores! I got hit up TWICE this past weekend! Once on Saturday to help a friend move, and then on Sunday to help a friend's mother haul some junk out of her back yard and to the dump.

gsemike

Maybe it's regional but around here (Lower NY), 3500 wouldn't be bad for that car if it looks as good as it does in the pics. Could go for a little less, could go for a little more.

Mr_Shiftright

Book value is about $900 for that car.

andre1969

Book value is about $900 for that car.

Yeah, but isn't book value pretty much irrelevant on a 20 year old car? Most car dealers aren't going to touch something that old, no matter how nice it is. Around here if a dealer took something like that in trade they'd find a way to work it into the deal that the customer basically got zilch. And then they'd wholesale it off and it would end up either down south or on some buy here pay here lot where it might fetch a better price.

Let's face it, $900 ain't gonna get you much of a car these days.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I think I could fill a flatbed truck with clean $900 cars like mid 80s GM products. Nobody wants them, at least not at anything but a bargain price. You can't even give them to wrecking yards, they wont' take them.

To be fair, you *might* get $1,500 for a super clean 80s Cutlass, in spite of the book value. But $3,500 is sale-proof pricing.

andre1969

Oh I think I could fill a flatbed truck with clean $900 cars like mid 80s GM products. Nobody wants them, at least not at anything but a bargain price. You can't even give them to wrecking yards, they wont' take them.

Well hey, if you can find me a nice, clean black 1985-86 Parisienne with a 305, Rally II's, and preferably no skirts and no vinyl roof, for about $900 could you flatbed it out this way? :shades:

Now that I think about it, a buddy of mine once had an '82 Cutlass sedan, similar to that '87. It was a fairly basic model though, only had an Olds 260 V-8, and had over 150,000 miles when he traded it. He got $600 in trade for it when he bought his '95 Grand Marquis used in 1999.

Come to think of it, he got $600 for that Grand Marquis in 2004 when he traded it on a 2004 Crown Vic! But it also had about 175,000 miles on it, the engine didn't sound too robust, check engine light was on, and the paint was starting to peel. Still, it's wild to think that you can pay ~$13,000 for something and just 5 years later it's practically worth nothing.

gsemike

Around here, rougher highter mileage examples go for a grand to fifteen. Maybe it's regional, maybe it's timing but for what I see here, the price doesn't seem completely insane.

I agree with Andre. A grand doesn't but much these days besides maybe a beat up 96 Taurus.

Mr_Shiftright

I bet you could fly out here and find something like that, sure. What would drive the price up is the labor in searching them out, but I often stumble on really nice clean 80s cars for dirt cheap.

Here's a clean Delta 88 for $1,200 asking price.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/240268373.html

Here's a '93 Olds for $900....needs a brake job is all

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/239480193.html

Here's a clean '84 Impala for $900

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/239475416.html

So you know, the crop of 80s cheapos is here for the taking.

andre1969

Those ads also aren't very descriptive, and don't have pics. I would've been interested in the '84 Impala, except for the fact that it has a 6-cyl. They hadn't gone to the 4.3 yet, so that one would still have a 110 hp Chevy 229-2bbl.

Also, it's probably a regional thing. Keep in mind these things tend to last forever on the west coast. Here in the east coast, or at least in my area, once they become used cars they often get picked up by cab drivers and run into the ground. And there's actually a teenage/young adult subculture that likes these things, kind of like a violent reaction to the fart-canned, ribbed & winged Civics.

IMO at least, that '87 Cutlass is more desireable than many of its peers from the same time for the same reason that any car from the 50's, 60's, and 70's is. A combination of the right options, the right engine, the right color, the right condition, and the right mileage. If it was a base model cutlass with a 231-2bbl in some godawful color and looked like it had been around the block a few times too many, it would be a whole different story.

Now I'm not saying it's the kind of car that needs to be preserved for all eternity. Good lord, it's not a 1979 New Yorker 5th Ave Edition! :P But I still think it's more than a few steps above your typical $900 beater, which is probably what that '84 Impala, '88 Delta, and '93 Cutlass are.

andre1969

on the subject of big, old, unwanted cars, I just found this one local that I might need to go investigate! 1981 Dodge St. Regis. No pics unfortunately, but the description sounds tempting.

I'd be tempted to see how it performs with the ignition upgrades the guy did to the engine. But unless he changed out the tall 2.26:1 rear end, I'd imagine it'll still be kinda luggy.

Mr_Shiftright

Most of the ads have pictures. You need to scroll down.

Nah, the '87 Cutlass is just another 80s beater I think. There is nothing of merit in the car--it's just a taxicab with nicer seats. Dime a dozen.

The marketplace is cruel. If resale value is low, it's the judgment of the marketplace. Lots of supply very little demand = $900 book value. Whether it's a good car or not isn't really a factor, I mean not directly. It's desirability first and foremost.

andre1969

Hmmm, for some reason I can't get the pics to come up. I wonder if I'm having a problem with my browser or something?

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sorry, you're right...only the '93 Olds has pictures at the moment. I looked at so many ads I got a bit confused.

andre1969

for sale at a nearby used car dealer that's notorious for high prices: 1987 Caprice Classic. They want $4895 for it. It's a V-8 and only has about 60,000 miles on it, but it looks like the paint is faded. It also isn't the most appetizing color in the world, either.

If I wanted it, I think I might be fool enough to offer them $2500 for it, but I'm sure you could tear it down a bit more, Shifty!

Mr_Shiftright

Well you know, dealers can ask higher prices because they offer financing...someone comes in who needs a car and the buyer only want to know the monthly payments...so the dealer either has a "mouse house" (small finance company) or he gives his own financing...he gets a down payment which is equal to or more than his has in the car, and then collects payments once a month. Sometimes with mouse houses the dealer gets to repo the car and re-sell it 4 or 5 times.

gsemike

We're beating this to death but that Cutlass is a V8 car with 70k miles. It's not a 6 cyl, doesn't have 130k plus. I think we're getting into a battle of the coasts. I bet all sorts of older cars are available for less on the left coast than the right just because they last. Anything for a grand here is a rusty POS or has a million miles:

Nova w pics

Mr_Shiftright

Well no, it's okay to beat on it---it's interesting to speculate. My take on it is that the car is so worthless in the marketplace that low miles or engine or geography can't possibly add 300% to the market value. It would add something, sure, but really so few people care about these cars anymore that you'd have to catch that one buyer who doesn't care if he pays 300% over retail for something. Maybe a young kid?

It's possible, after all, but that's not a "market"---that's one event.

toomanyfumes

If the body on that Nova is fair i'd hate to see what a poor one looks like. :sick:

andre1969

If the body on that Nova is fair i'd hate to see what a poor one looks like.

Agreed. Heck, I think I'd pay the asking price on that '87 Cutlass Supreme before I'd TAKE the Nova for free!

gsemike

We're at the point in lower NY where they're aren't that many drivers left from the muscle car era. Everything you see is either has been restored or is completely shot. Sometimes you see a HS hot rod that is done but not really restored. I never see an unmolested car that is really good bones unless you get into the mid 70s.

I think about the 70 Chevelle that I sold in 1990 for $3800 with rebuilt worked 350, new paint, not too much plastic and factory buckets and console and I could kick myself.

Mr_Shiftright

The muscle car biz is booming here in California, and even the "sorta muscle car" biz -- clones, wannabees like big block Polaras, etc. Anything with a shine and some cubic inches and a decent price can be readily sold here. I suspect a great migration of cars West to East is upon us.

lemko

Well, geeze, drive that flatbed truck over to my place. I'm sure I'll take all the nice B and C body cars!

Mr_Shiftright

No, no, YOU have to drive the flatbed, otherwise the advantage of our cheap prices will be lost, since you've have to pay me a handsome hourly wage. So I'll buy these cars for $900 but won't sell them to you for that.

Well I could "eBay" them and then stick you with transportation costs...that's one way :P

lemko

Shoot, I don't even think you can find a decent $900 beater in Philadelphia. You can find A $900 beater, but it will probably look like it'll go about three blocks and die and will be located in some neighborhood that looks like Berlin after the war. Even then, I can't guarantee you'll come back with either the car or the $900. Shoot, YOU might not come back at all!

My 1988 Park Avenue was an anomaly. Something like it in its condition usually sells for about $3K around here, but I got it for $1,295. If I threw a nice new paint job on it, it would look fantastic as everything else works and is in excellent condition.

lemko

I had a 1987 Caprice Classic I purchased new. My was a much more tasteful solid black. I'd probably try to get it for $2,500 or less myself. That ridiculous price is probably to finance some desperate BHPH buyer with poor credit.

andre1969

I think you definitely found a gem with that '88 Park Ave, even withh the current flaws in the paint. And it photographs well!

Sometimes I think about buying a beater, but it's not like I have a nice, expensive, newer car to preserve. Heck, it's gotten to the point that my Intrepid is the beater, and keeps my LeMans and New Yorker off the road in nasty weather!

I know that might sound like reverse logic, but I figure that I want to hang onto the LeMans and New Yorker, whereas the Intrepid is just something to drive and use up and then finally unload when something catastrophic enough breaks on it.

fintail

The 70s ended a little different from how they began

andre1969

I'd be curious to know what engine that '79 Aspen R/T has under the hood. If it has the 360-4bbl, they were actually still pretty potent. However, many of them had 360-2bbls, and the 318 was also available.

Just to show how bleak the times were, I found this performance list of cars from that era...

Car (all with automatic trans) 0-60 1/4 mile Reported Top Speed*
1978 Volare Kit Car 360-4 7.3 sec 15.9 @ 88 111
1978 Aspen Super Coupe 360-4 8.1 sec 16.7 @ 85 108
1977 Aspen 360-2 HD 8.6 sec 17.4 @ 86.1 115
1977 Camaro Z28 350-4 8.6 sec 16.3 @ 83.0 105
1977 Corvette L82 350-4 8.8 sec 16.6 @ 82.0 not available
1977 Trans Am 400-4 9.3 sec 16.9 @ 82.0 110
1977 Volare 318-2 HD 10.7 sec 18.2 @ 74.4 106

I'm not sure of the original source of this data, but I found it at allpar.

I also remember seeing a test of the 1977 1/2 Can Am with the 400-4bbl, and it did 0-60 in 8.7 seconds, but I'm not sure about the other figures. I think it's a bit odd that a Can Am weighing well over 4,000 pounds would be quicker than a Trans Am with the same engine! Although the Trans Am was no lightweight itself. Could just be the result of different testers, procedures, weather, etc.

I'm kinda surprised that they got a 360-2bbl '77 Aspen to do 0-60 in 8.6 seconds!