Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

jlflemmons

My cousin had a '78 (I think) Fiesta and just did fluids, belts, and brakes. Drove that little beast for about 15 years and it was still running good when he sold it. I think he had about 175K on it when it left.

They drove oddly though, like they were top heavy or something. I considered buying a used one years ago for a commuter, but just couldn't get past the way it drove.

akangl

Not many of these are still on the road

Awwww, I'd LOVE to have one of those just for old times sake. My mom drove a Fiesta for as long as I can remember when I was a kid. She had a silver one, a red one, and I think an orange one. I remember one of them wouldn't stay running at one time and I had to sit out in it with my foot on the gas while she was at the dentist's office with my little brother. Even that didn't keep it running, so we had to push it down a hill and pop the clutch to get it started again. Then there was the time she ran into the concrete parking barrier at K-mart........ah the memories, lol.

fintail

I remember riding in the Fiesta that belonged to the mother of a friend when I was very little, like maybe in kindergarten. I think it was blue. I swear I recall the seat being folded down and we rode in the back so we could play around. I remember I liked it.

hpmctorque

As many of you will recall, the Fiesta was followed by the Festiva, a Mazda 2 clone, produced in Korea, and badged as a Ford for the bottom feeder end of the market. Like the Geo Metro, with which it competed, the Festiva was considered a "throw-away" car by many, and as such many owners didn't maintain them. Surprisingly, though, the Festiva and Metro were durable cars when properly maintained. Many went over 200,000 miles on the original engine and clutch, and some went over 300,000. So, you could hold 'em or fold 'em. Both had fewer issues than the earlier Fiestas and Rabbits, not to mention the Renault 5/LeCars, though less fun to drive, in my opinion.

Mr_Shiftright

The problem with the Metro and Festiva was that they were so awfully cheap and tinny, one could contemplate suicide driving it. The cars really made you feel like you were either a cheapskate or desperate. But hey, they did provide transportation, so we must give credit where credit is due

hpmctorque

True, unlike the VW Bugs of the '50s and '60s, which conveyed a more positive image. Shifty, Do you think this was due more to VW's clever advertising, or to its unique styling, whereas the Festivas and Metros of the world have more conventional styling?

Mr_Shiftright

No I think VWs were really very well made for their time and price. We tend to see them today all beat up, or modified and cobbled up, but back then, brand-new, the fit and finish were superb. The Germans were still digging out of the rubble in the 1950s, but their workforce still had their skills and traditions of workmanship.

The Metro and Festiva may have been the first automobiles that a human being could actually beat up with your fists and total.

andre1969

The Metro and Festiva may have been the first automobiles that a human being could actually beat up with your fists and total.

Nah, I can tell you from experience that beercan-thin sheetmetal was out long before the Metro and Festiva. I dented the driver's door of my 1980 Malibu back in high school one day, when I closed the door and it didn't shut right. Instead of unlocking it, opening it, and then closing it harder, I shoved against it to close it all the way. It put a dent in it right above the door handle.

That Malibu was my first car, and when I went from it to a 1969 Dodge Dart, that Dart felt like a tank in comparison. I have no idea how thick the sheetmetal of each car was, but the Dart definitely felt tougher. The only aspect of the Dart that looked flimsy to me was the part of the quarter panel under the rear window. It was a hardtop, and if you closed the door with the back window down, you could see that part of the quarter panel flex a bit.

Now that I think about it, back in high school, someone hit my Malibu in the parking lot and punched in the quarter panel behind the rear wheel. I was able to pound it out with my fist.

As for the old VW Bug, I think back then they represented kind of a reverse-chic counterculture. Buying one was kind of like giving the middle finger to the Big Three. It made a statement. Plus, let's face it, they were so far out of style by the 60's, having been designed in the late 30's, that they made kind of a retro fashion statement as well.

But fast forward to the era of the Metro and Festiva, and they were just bargain-basement cheap cars. I dunno about the Festiva, but if you bought a Metro as most of them were equipped...a 4-door with air conditioning and an automatic transmission, they really weren't all that economical. Many full-sized cars would get close to the same mileage on the highway. In contrast, what did a Bug get on the highway, maybe 30? In an era when many big-block domestics couldn't break 15 on the highway, and even smallblock compacts struggled to break 20, a Bug probably seemed pretty impressive.

hpmctorque

You're right about that, Andre. Being only a three speed with low gearing, the Metro automatic was a pain to drive over 50 mph. I made the mistake of renting one in Florida once, and it was probably the worst rental experience I ever had. The three cylinder manual, found in the hatchback, made far more sense for those seeking fuel economy, because it delivered more mpg than a regular Civic, and similar to the CRX HF.

boomchek

I think for that time the Metro and the Suzuki Swift had the nicest styling of any econoboxes (the 1989 and up models). The Swift GT was the one to get for performance. They were waaay more stylish than a boxy Festiva, a Lada Samara, Hyundai Excel, or even the Tercel.

boomchek

Audi S4 $4900

Mr_Shiftright

car's totalled. Not even close to being worth fixing.

Just go buy a nice one for the same price + $1,000.

Value? About $350.

boomchek

I don't know if you can find an S4 for that cheap. An A4 yes.

isellhondas

The Fiestas were definatly tinny, but they lasted forever! That 1600 engine came from the old Cortinas and later found it's way into some of the early Pintos.

These were excellent, rugged engines that lasted a long time.

isellhondas

Most Volkswagen buffs consider the 1967 Beetles to be the last of the "good" ones and the best year.

The 1968 Beetles were still OK but they were building them faster and quality slipped a notch.

Then in 1973 they had to go to those ugly 5 MPH bumpers and the required emission crap really hurt. The Super Beetles weren't as good as the standard models.

fintail

Aah the Festiva. In high school I knew a girl who had a red one...it was an "L" model, so we called it the "festival". One day a bunch of us guys got together and pulled a prank on her...we found a spot at school where there was a wide set of double doors with no divider...and ganged up and carried the car into the building and placed it in a hallway. They are pretty light cars indeed.

That must have been around 1993...so it couldn't have been very old...but it seemed like a very cheap car even then.

A friend's brother in law is a big Geo Metro fan...even though he can afford a better car, for some reason he loves the things. He also loves Miatas...so maybe he just likes being in a very small vehicle.

fintail

This is kinda neat

isellhondas

Utra rare and ultra ugly!

I remember those had a strange front suspension with little springs that hung down in the front.

Can you imagine trying to find a trim piece or tailight lens for that?

fintail

Any wagon specific parts would indeed be unobtanium. I can't recall when I last saw a Falcon or Comet wagon.

I kind of like those Falcon wagons with the rear glass that wraps around just slightly.

isellhondas

The Falcon and Comet wagons were MUCH more plentiful! I can't even remember seeing another Meteor wagon.

I knew a guy who had a plain jane 1963 Falcon wagon. Instead of the six, it happened to have the 260 engine and it had a three speed stick.

What a sleeper it was!

Mr_Shiftright

I turned down a NICE S4 for $7000. I'm sure I could find a higher mileage S4 for $6,000.

But okay, let's say the world's best for $8,000 in "real money". That's still only $3,100 more than the wreck we saw for sale.

It's just an old Audi with crushing parts and repair bills in the future. Can you believe---if someone breaks your headlight pod on an S4? That's about $600 thank you very much.

fintail

Are you sure you're talking S4 and not A4? I've seen A4 that cheap too...but not S4.

isellhondas

Audi has GOT to build the biggest POS cars in the world with Volvo a close second. "Crushing parts and repair bills"

I think you were being too kind with that comment.

fintail

Yeah...same for a Fairlane wagon I guess. Midsized wagons must have not have been seen as useful...only compacts and large variants sold.

I'll never forget 'discovering' a very sound yet unloved Falcon Sprint languishing in a local carport when I was 15...I very much wanted it for my first car, but could never get the guy to part with it.

andre1969

Yeah...same for a Fairlane wagon I guess. Midsized wagons must have not have been seen as useful...only compacts and large variants sold.

Ford was kind of funny with their compacts and intermediates, at least from 1966 onward. Instead of having different platforms for the compact Falcon and midsized Fairlane, Ford used one platform in varying lengths. IIRC, the Falcon was on a 110" wb, the Fairlane 2- and 4-doors were on a 116" wb, and Falcon and Fairlane wagons were on a 113" wb. For utility purposes, there was no advantage to buying a Fairlane wagon over a Falcon; it had no more room inside.

Now with the earlier models, the Fairlane was probably roomier. The Fairlane and Meteor came out for '62, but that year they were mainly just economy cars, offered only as a 2- or 4-door sedan. Hardtop coupes and wagons were added for 1963. There was a Meteor wagon, but only for '63, but the whole Meteor line was dropped after '64.

Mercury ran into marketing problems with the Meteor, as well. While it was an intermediate and the Comet was a compact, the Comet was stretched out, looking much more impressive than the Falcon upon which it was based. A Meteor was probably a more substantial, better-built car, and was wider inside, but most buyers probably just saw that they were both about the same length and the Comet was cheaper, so it sold in greater numbers.

When I was in high school, I used to see a '63 Meteor hardtop coupe on a fairly regular basis. I thought it was a sharp looking car.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, S4. We must not confuse asking prices with actual real money. Geez, a man can buy a legendary 1991 BMW M3 coupe for $10K, and in comparison a '93 S4 is just a hand grenade waiting for the pin to fall out. Anyone offering you $7,500 for an early S4 is your friend indeed.

Maybe you're confusing the old S4 with newer S4s in terms of value. I mean, what could a 13-year-old Audi be worth?

A4s don't even start until 1996 I think.

fintail

Oh yeah, I forgot about those first ones. My bad. When I think 'S4', I think like a MY 2000+.

lilengineerboy

The early S4s, S6s and very late 200s (1991-1996) had a 20 valve turbo inline 5 cylinder with 225 hp. That older ('90s) S4 is about as fast as a stock WRX, even though its considerably larger. You also have to remember this was 15 years ago.
As much as I love the E30 M3, its buzzy and you have to beat on the motor to get it to go fast. It is also temperamental and very expensive when it breaks. To its credit, it is actually still supported by BMW, unlike Audi who totally abandoned support for the "old world" (pre-'96 A4) Audis.
I think Audi's lack of support for the older cars (every other German make has a "historical program" for their older cars, and most British makes as well) is really the kiss of death.
I have yet to have a problem with an "old world" (240/740/760 or earlier) that was more than $100 in parts. When I was in CA recently, I drove an '83 Volvo GLT wagon from Santa Barbara to Ventura to drop it off for a friend. The odo said 238000. His parents got it European Delivery (I remember when he went on that trip).

qbrozen

OH!
I was going to ask you to please point me to a $6k S4, as well ... but you're talking an older one. That wrecked one was an '01. A nice '01 for $6k would be more than a bit tempting to me. (although I wouldn't want to deal with repairs ... yikes!)

british_rover

Noting depreciates faster then a S/RS audi car.

I think the order of deprecation from highest to lowest for German Big three, excluding porsche, goes like this...

1. Audi RS of any type.
2. Audi S of any type.
3. MB AMG of any type.
3. BMW M of any type.

The market knows audi offers no support for their out of production models and the prices reflect that.

My wife had a Audi 100 her last couple of years at college and then for a couple of years afterwards. The coolant expansion tank got a crack in it at the bottom where a hose came in and started leaking.

Cheapest I could find the part using my jobber/wholesale pricing was about 650 dollars. I ended up reparing the tank by using a bit of high temp PVC pipe slightly smaller then diameter of the hole in the bottom of the tank and then some high temp epoxy.

That held together for another six months until the motor let go when her father was driving the car. In the poor Audis defense it did have 210,000 +++++ Miles on it. No idea exactly how many because the odometer only worked every once in a while.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh I thought the wrecked one was a '93. My bad. Nonetheless, Audis are savage depreciators...I guess you could pick up a 2001 S4 for maybe $12K-$14K, but again, all you're going to get is trouble, expensive parts and expensive repairs. This was, what, a $43K car some five years ago? Doesn't Wall Street call this kind of depreciation "whiplash"? They are great to drive, and terrific in snow, and really fast, but....

The E30 M3 is kind of legendary and the support for it is so good that the risks go down a lot when you pull the trigger on an old one. With an S4 I think you are in no-man's-land from the get-go. You have maybe two or three suppliers of used S4 parts in the whole country, and they are just going to dangle that precious part in front of you and make you dance for it.

fintail

I think my E55 is 'whiplash' too...as it is an 02 with 27K miles on it that I bought for about 1/3 of original price. And AMG cars even tend to fare much better than their normal counterparts in owners surveys...maybe due to more attention at the factory, and a typical owner who is more likely to maintain the vehicle (where so many normal E class are leased).

british_rover

Yeah AMG depreciation is painful. I think I told you the story about my client who has the 2004 S55 AMG with about 14,000 miles on it.

He paid around 115,000 for it plus tax and tags and we could only give him about 70,000 for it. :surprise:

hpmctorque

...that aren't supported by their manufacturers, but Japanese cars, as well. Ever try to buy replacement parts for a '84-'89 generation Nissan Z car?

british_rover

Man Mercedes should not make green cars.

Was looking for AMG wagons on ebay just now and found this.

Green AMG Wagon must be the only one in the entire world.

fintail

It's that massive initial markup, and the general market correcting it. I think the average late model high end consumer cares about little past the grille and maybe some nice wheels. Seems to take a certain type of nutjob to really want an AMG...usually its some kind of enthusiast, and there are only so many MB enthusiasts out there.

Regular E class hold their value much better even with all the leases, for example, C class as well...but those W220s do take a big hit.

fintail

Green? What am I missing?

I do think those E55 wagons are pretty cool...still awhile before they will depreciate to my level. And I am leery of the active suspension. I haven't checked if there will be an E63 wagon, that might be better.

On a MB forum I watch, someone claims to have found an 01 E55 in 'travertine beige' with nav, ventilated seats, and parktronic. I've never heard of that color on an E55, and those options might make such a car practically unique.

fintail

I'm glad MB keeps parts stocks for old cars, even if the prices are steep. I can go to my local dealer and order stuff for the fintail! (not that I would, there's enough of a secondary market to where I can get stuff much cheaper). I bought a set of OEM floormats for the E55 (they have these nice subtly embroiodered ones stock, but they tend to be neglected), and the dealer had them in stock. A model-specific part for a car that sold 500 units per year, and they were in stock. Crazy.

british_rover

Most mercedes are Silver, Black, white, gray or some variation on those primary colors.

Just about all AMG cars are silver or black or sometimes dark silver that you might car gray.

IMO mercedes just don't look so great in green and a Green AMG wagon has to be the only one in the world.

fintail

Oh, is it really green? It looks black to me.

But yeah, a green one would be a freakshow.

british_rover

Oh yeah it is green. Maybe your monitor needs adjusting. Just look at the bigger pictures.

Look at the exterior color in the description.

Can't understand anyone getting a R63 when you can get an E55, and I think an E63, wagon.

jrosasmc

Yes, I agree with your comments about Audis being savage depreciators- a friend of mine just picked up a '93 100 in mint condition for only $2400. It does have 138k miles by the way.

However, if there is a really bad depreciating car among European makes, it has to be Saab. I took a look on Kelley Blue Book to see the trade-in value on a '93 900 S; only $900 in average condition!

isellhondas

Agree on depreciation on Saabs.

And, another nightmare to maintain!

Mr_Shiftright

Well I think after 14 years, depreciation is kind of a moot point. At that point, just about anything becomes a high mileage worn out old car. I think you could get more for a '93 Saab that's mint, presuming you want the headaches.

But Saabs an Audis aren't going to bring Volvo and BMW prices, that's true.

lemko

My girlfriend's first new car was a blue 1986 Chevrolet Sprint sedan. It had that 1-litre 3-cylinder engine. Quite a contrast to the 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 sedan she previously drove.

lemko

Those "elephant foot" taillights didn't help either.

My Dad had a black 1962 VW Bug. He took it to a local mechanic who ruined it by grinding down the bolts to fit the standard tools. Dad soon got rid of the Bug and replaced it with a 1961 Chevrolet Biscayne two-door sedan.

mmcnamara

Seeing that Fiesta brought back many great college memories. I had a 1978 Ghia model that, with the exception of a healthy appetite for water pumps, was a great car that regularly topped 40 mpg on the highway. Started at -25 degrees, never let me down once in the four years that I owned it. I sold it to a buddy who ran it for a few more years, then he sold it to a friend who ran it up to something like 165,000 miles. A really great car.

xwesx

I think I would take your Silverado's frequent "fender benders" over the ride I had on 12/30.... what do you all think... a project car?! :P

isellhondas

Are you serious?

Some hick "mechanic" was too cheap to invest in a set of metric tools actually took the trouble to grind down the bolts so his sockets and wrenches would fit??

qbrozen

hell, i'm not even sure that's an issue of being cheap. We're talking ALOT of work to avoid buying ... what ... 3 wrenches needed to disassemble a whole Bug? I think that's more along the lines of being an idiot.