Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

Ouch! That wreck looks pretty brutal. Hope nobody got hurt! :surprise:

fintail

You can buff that out.

fintail

Preserve it for 23 years and still lose. I like that engine cover, reminds me of a cross between a big food processor and an old computer

Lemko-mobile

Mr_Shiftright

Smash-up/Roll Over/Ouch Car:

Miracle will fix that for $750. My uncle works there.

1984 Corvette---I have learned not to laugh at prices asked for low mileage preserved cars, even of the most humble or unpopular types, ever since that Pacer "sold" on eBay for $15,000.

Cars like this are quite a dilemma---if you drive it, you lose money every mile you drive (as well as your bragging rights), but if you don't drive it, you've pay an enormous price for something a) you can't use and b) no one much cares about anyway. It's not like there's a used C4 shortage going on anywhere in the world. This is not the most popular of Corvettes.

What's it really worth? Hoo-hah...I'd have to say no more than $9,500....maybe $10K for a philanthropist.

gsemike

In my parents' basement, I still have an old advertisement for the 84 Corvette trumpeting it as "the most advanced production car on the planet". It's almost funny to take a look at one so well preserved today. I think that there were some mighty fine C4s but that just looks so out of date.

Mr_Shiftright

RE; C4 They are a great used car bargain. You can find a decent one ready to roll (not perfect, but decent) for $6,000 or less. But be prepared for a really harsh ride. Not a bad car, if you like the Corvette image kind of thing.

gsemike

For a holiday weekend, the boards have been active. What do you think of these New Years Day deals on my local Craigs?

Fixable V8 Cherokee but is it worth it?

Taurus is not a project but I like the write up from this forthright seller

I guess those Kias have interference motors

If you can make the commitment to keep this up, it's probably more fun than a new GT

This Marquis is nice. Unlike Seattle, we don't get too many listings like this

So much work to sell it for $650. Go outside and get within 50 feet of the car to take a pic

I can't begin to list everything that is not original about this car but it is nice. At 13.9 it's a steal. At 139 it's about 5 times too expensive. Which is it? Does anyone know what "all original" means?

lilengineerboy

Skip the '84. In '85 they got rid of cease-fire (cross fire) fuel injection and went to a newer system. In '86 they got ABS. In '88 they got a 6spd manual instead of the Doug-Nash and a revised instrument cluster. Z51s ride much worse but are the bees knees for auto-x in stock classes. You can run a 315mm tire in the rear (but you probably don't need to, that is huge...think of 2 Civic tires put together)
Problem spots are early fuel injection apparently, that doug-nash, and the instrument cluster is prone to freaking out and is expensive to repair (there is something of a cottage industry where they will refurb that thing for $600, which is less than the 2k the General wants), oh, and its made out of plastic and can flex like a noodle as it ages. However, it is very well supported in the aftermarket. Mileage is in the low 20s.
Every bolt on in the world works on that car. It is a very cheap way to have a sports car and go fast. It's not hard to work on.
I would probably save up a lil more and go for the C5/6 if I was in that market.

british_rover

The C5 is such a huge improvement over the C4. Low 20k to high teens should get you a fairly nice one.

Mr_Shiftright

#1. I have this motto: "No Cherokee is worth fixing, ever" (just a rule of thumb).

#4. Vipers ARE fun---but check the CARFAX...many, many of these cars have been wrecked and quite a few have had replacement motors. It's a car well named...get careless and it will BITE you!

#5. '72 Marquis---fair enough but $3,500 sounds more realistic.

#6. '73 Olds---hey the owner lives in upstate New York...NOBODY goes outside this time of year.

#7. '73 Camaro -- my other rule of thumb: "If it's not a 1969 Z-28, it's not a Z-28 worth caring about".

At 13.9, it's high retail and then some. If it were bone-stock perfect, frame-off resto, yeah, it would be a steal.

lemko

That's the story. Well, this did happen in the early 1960s. I guess not too many of the smaller shops had metric tools.

gsemike

I am partial to the 70 Camaros but I know that most don't agree with me. That 73 is short on details but it does say big block. Of course, that's not original but as a modified car, if it looks as good as it does in pics, I think 15 to 18 is reasonable. At least around here, the 2 words "big block" are as good as gold.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah but it could be anything like a 454 out of a passenger car. It's not supposed to have a big block. It's supposed to have a 350. The car looks butchered to me, and it's a '73 besides...a '70 could have a big block in it with 50% more horsepower...hence easily 50% more price.

What we have here IMO is a clone with questionnable mods and who knows the workmanship?

gsemike

You're right. What I'm saying is that if the car passes the test in person, it looks good, has the necessary mods to the rest of the drivetrain and has a legitimate 454 which makes it go, that 15 to 18 price would be reasonable. If it's a butchered POS with a 250 horse smogger engine, it's not worth 10.

Only so much you can tell without seeing it in person.

jlflemmons

With the Olds 350 and basic maintenance, those buggers would run forever.

fintail

Not many of these left, even here

Tin can to haul your tin cans

andre1969

I wonder why Chevy never let you get a 454 in the Camaro? I'm guessing because they didn't want it to compete too much with the Corvette? A big-block would certainly fit, since you could get the 402 in the 1970-72 models. But then in 1973-74, the strongest engine you could get was a 350 with 245 hp, which isn't bad, considering that Chevy wouldn't get a Camaro 350 up to that kind of power again until 1991.

Pontiac would let you get a 455 in the Trans Am until they quit making 455's after '76. Maybe GM wanted to also keep up the image that the Trans Am was a step up from the Camaro, and so they only let the Trans Am have a big engine like that?

hpmctorque

True, I hadn't seen a Fiat X1/9 for months, but I happened to see a red one in a shopping mall lot today.

qbrozen

you're probably right about the corvette part of the equation. I have a question, though. Did Chevy ever make a hi-po version of the 454? I mean, what is the highest stock power they ever offered with that engine? Seems to me it got most of its reputation from the aftermarket versions. But I certainly could be wrong.

By the way, my father had a '79 Z28 that he stuffed a 454 into. 3.73 posi rear and I believe a TH400 (or maybe it was a 700r4) to round out the package. He tried it a couple of times and found out he was too scared to drive the thing, so he sold it. I tried to convince him to keep it for me, but he wouldn't hear of it (and I don't blame him). I did drive it once in a parking lot. The first time I touched the gas, I wound up looking up at the sky. YIKES!!!

british_rover

I think the Chevelle got a HiPo version of the 454 that made a severley underrated 450 gross HP or something but they only made a handful of them.

qbrozen

oh... right, right. i wasn't thinking. chevelles and novas completely slipped my mind, for some reason. (although i guess the nova never had one stock, either, did it?)

p.s. according to wikipedia, the c3 vette with the 454 had 425 hp.

gsemike

The LS6 70 Chevelle had 450 horse and about 500 ft lbs of torque. With 14 inch bias-ply tires it would ran about 13 flat from the factory. Chevy did not throw around the bog blocks as easily as Pontiac, Buick and Olds did. It's extremely rare to see a Caprice or Impala sedan with a big block that it is to see an Old Delta and Pontiac Bonnevile with a 455.

That was probably because the small blocks were so tunable and to retain a halo effect on the big block cars. The Nova only went as high as 396 probably for the same reason that the Camaro only went to 396. The Nova was not meant to infringe on the Chevelle's business.

Mr_Shiftright

Most of the big block 454s I see stuffed into Camaros are from Chevrolet passenger cars or from trucks and they reallly don't have a lot of HP. A '74 Impala 454 puts out about 235PH...but of course you can build them up

andre1969

if GM started having a problem differentiating the Nova from the Chevelle in the '68-72 timeframe? The '68 Nova seemed considerably bulked up compared to the trim '62-67 style. Even though wheelbase only went up like half an inch (from around 110.5 to 111), the car still seemed much larger than before. In contrast, GM started that "split wheelbase" trend with the '68 midsizers, where 2-doors were on a shorter 112" wb, while 4-doors were on a 116" wb (and something like 121.5 for those Vista Cruisers). That must've put the Chevelle coupes awfully close in size to the Nova in the eyes of many buyers. I forget what the overall length was, maybe 196" for the Nova and 202-203" for the 2-door Chevelles?

gsemike

I had a 70 Chevelle and it always seemed like more car than a Nova. It had rear coil springs and the body lines had more detail and the car appeared wider. The overall size was close and they both had a similar fastback silohoutte but a Chevelle was definately a higher line car than a Nova.

isellhondas

I watched as a 1966 SS 396 Malibu brought well over 100,000 at the Barrett-Jackson Auction yesterday!

Is this out of control or what?

qbrozen

hmmmm....

HUH? Vipers have frames???

qbrozen

you mean the chevelle convertible? Red one or black one?

qbrozen

Good grief! Yet another listing that is useless without pics!

I've never heard of this model

british_rover

2002 is interesting if it is not a rust bucket.

I assume he means viper shell cause the viper is a unibody.

british_rover

I have heard of the Grand Prix turbos even worked on a couple at one point.

I didn't think McLAREN had anything to do with it though.

They were bad cars though as that little 3.1 V6 did not like having a turbo on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Grand_Prix#1989

Hmhh guess Mclaren did have something to do with it.

qbrozen

yeah, i don't know what he's getting at. If its the whole body and interior, its not a bad deal, actually, depending on the damage. I mean, what does a viper drivetrain run?

Here ya go!

So throw that all together and you got yourself one heck of a track car.

I know, i know, shifty is cringing right now and cracking his fingers in preparation of the verbal lashing he is about to lay down.

qbrozen

hmmm... they don't list the output for that car. anyone know what it was?

british_rover

Ah come on how hard can it be to throw a viper motor and tranny into a car.

It was designed in a barn and made of old churches anyway right? channeling Clarkson

isellhondas

It was red and now that you mention it, I think it was a convertable with very low miles.

Still, I think it went for around $130,000 and that just seems nuts!

I just think the over restored "trailer queens" that go through Barrett-Jackson at these HUGE prices just screws up the market when people automatically think their car must be worth the same!

Mr_Shiftright

I think you can buy a brand new Viper crate engine for $13,000.

But why go through all this trouble...older Vipers are selling pretty cheap right now and they are a dime a dozen, so why mess with a cracked up one? I mean, the ad says "good from the cowl back" which means you are only buying 1/2 a car.

If you shop hard, you should be able to score an early Viper for $30,000 that's ready to strip for the track....or just buy somebody else's track car for probably less than that.

Is there an undamaged Viper left on the planet?

jlflemmons

I saw one of those Grand Prix turbos at a dealer one day that was completely pancaked, as in about 2.5 feet tall. Seems a couple of good ol boys got wasted and took off to see how fast it would go. Estimates were in the range of 50 feet altitude (airborne off the road) with about 150' coverered before touchdown, inverted. Neither was killed, but Pontiac wasn't too happy about their loaner car. Pontiac supplied cars to the local Travis County Livestock Show and Rodeo. It was a couple of the show marshals that took the car for a flight.

qbrozen

going from $15k to $30k is a BIG difference. Even if there were $5k in bodywork, you're still saving $10k.

I'm not saying I would do it, nor am I saying its worth it ... I'm just saying, IF i wanted a viper on a $20k budget and did not care about resale ...

Mr_Shiftright

This one sounded like much worse than $5K in bodywork. If it's only good from the cowl back, then what about the suspension underneath?

So if you need front clip plus front suspension plus driveline plus engine management system plus racing components plus paying $2,000 for the wreck....and you'll be going 180 mph in a pieced together chassis?

And besides, it doesn't say it's a coupe. You aren't going to put a roadster out as a serious track car...

Sounds to me like this something someone should give you for free so you can snag a few body parts off it.

All you're getting here is the bones from the turkey dinner IMO.

qbrozen

well, it certainly needs to be looked at before buying. He didn't say the front was a complete loss. He just said the right front was hit and everything else was perfect. I interpreted that differently than you did. So its obviously questionable as to what this pile of scrap really looks like.

It makes me curious, but not enough that I'd want to look into it. I'd still rather do a Cobra kit for not much more money.

good point about the roadster as a track car. I hadn't thought of that possibility.

Mr_Shiftright

You're absolutely right--we haven't a clue without seeing it...and the fact that there are no pix or links to pix isn't a very good sign.

Yeah, you can buy a FactoryFive Cobra starter kit for around $12,000.

lilengineerboy

If that BMW 2002 has good shock towers that would be a great start. Then start looking for rust everywhere else. Then get that 4 cylinder M3 engine Shifty likes and put that in there. Then go beat up other cars. 74 started the smog stuff so that might be incomplete or missing, although I don't think they had thermal reactors like the 530/630s.
Actually when 2002Haus used to do the BMW show in SLO,CA, there were usually a few M3 powered 2002s.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, the later 2002s are real turds in the engine department....but they can be made to run a lot stronger.

The ad says "needs complete restoration" and really, you can buy a very nice ready to roll '74 2002 for $4,500 bucks, so I'm not seeing much upside here except as a parts car or a garage therapy "my labor is worth zero' type of project.

If you haggled the price down to $500 and the body was rust-free, you could make money on this car by parting it out bit by bit.

My biggest dread with a 2002 is, ironically, the dreaded heater blower motor. You can't get forced heat into the car without the blower motor, and it's bad on 9 out of 10 used 2002s you buy, and it's a BEAR, a....MONSTROUS hassle to replace it.

Other than that, watch out for rust, and stripped splines in the transmision output shaft.

isellhondas

Where is that heater motor located that makes it so hard? How many hours labor?

A few years ago, a buddy had a Peugeot 604 diesel with a leaking heater core. His regular shop quoted 12 hours to change it and let him know they sure hoped he would take it somewhere else. We put in a can of Bar's leak which managed to do the trick until he traded the car in a year later.

andre1969

A few years ago, a buddy had a Peugeot 604 diesel with a leaking heater core. His regular shop quoted 12 hours to change it and let him know they sure hoped he would take it somewhere else. We put in a can of Bar's leak which managed to do the trick until he traded the car in a year later.

I've been kinda lucky, I guess, because the only time I ever had a heater core go out was in early 1989, on my '80 Malibu. The mechanic charged me $225 to replace it. I forget how many hours of labor it was, but I remember him saying that one of the worst cars the he knew at that time was the Fox-based Mustang. I think he said something like 8 hours!

I'm surprised that something like a 2002 would be so hard to get to. I thought they were simplistic little cars. But then, I guess that just because something is old, doesn't mean it's simple. Like the brakes on my '57 DeSoto, which to me look a lot more complex than they need to be.

explorerx4

guess what? that was from the Jan '06 auction! The '07 starts on the 13th.

Mr_Shiftright

I couldn't even guess at that...it's apparently the Mt. Everest of BMW 2002 repair, and you train for it all your life....I've never attempted it. I think mostly it's the agony of working upside down, blind, in an impossibly small space that cuts your fingers to pieces. I've often wondered if it's worse than the dreaded Fiat X1/9 water pump replacement, which has a book time of 7.7 hours in equally unpleasant conditions.

isellhondas

Andre,

The brakes on your De Soto are a nasty nightmare! The fronts have two wheel cylinders per side and nasty springs.

HAve you ever pulled a rear drum? It takes a special puller that bolts up. The center screw connects with the axle and then you have to beat the hell out of the puller.

I think those were called Center Plane brakes and they were horrible!

isellhondas

It sounds like if a water pump starts leaking on an X1/9, the car is totalled?

I once followed a tow truck that had the remains of an X1/9 hanging in it's sling like they do with motorcycles. I thought it was a wrecked motorcycle until I got closer and to my horror, realized what it was.

Nobody could have survived that wreck!

Mr_Shiftright

Well let's see...7.7 hours at San Francisco labor rates is about $850 + the pump + towing.....yeah, could be close to a total--LOL!